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Re: Process Camera.

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  • eric evans
    Hi Marcel, Thanks for the reply; as a researcher you will know how much each contribution helps when one is trying to find out about something. Size wise, it
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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      Hi Marcel,
      Thanks for the reply; as a researcher you will know how much each contribution helps when one is trying to find out about something. Size wise, it looks as though I am well third after you and Sandy! See what I have written to Sandy, about the thoughts behind the rescue of these objects, and which I re-iterate in your case; it's a tough job, but somebody has to do it. A hundred years from now, ours could well be the only three in existence, because we saved them from the chain saw.
      Best regards,
      Eric.


      --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Safier" <msafier@...> wrote:
      >
      > Eric
      >
      > For what its worth I have uploaded photos I took of my Penrose Process camera when it was still in the shed before I bought it in 2003. I cannot take photos of it at present as it is packed away. The replacement lens I bought after missing out on the one that came with it is a Cooke Apochromatic Process Lens Series IX f22/1066mm. It came with a flat metal lens shade.
      >
      > Cheers!
      >
      > Marcel
      >
    • eric evans
      Hi Fred, On the topic of wives vs. cameras, see what I have written to Sandy. If Maureen was still here, there s no way that camera would have got through the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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        Hi Fred,
        On the topic of wives vs. cameras, see what I have written to Sandy. If Maureen was still here, there's no way that camera would have got through the front door!
        Best regards,
        Eric.


        --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, Fred /Maren Friedman <marenfred@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sandy, Eric, and Marcel,
        > These cameras are AMAZING. Hey, I could park my Toyota Prius in one of
        > them. Thank you for opening up a new field of interest. I never really
        > paid attention to these monsters although I was vaguely aware of their
        > existence.
        > And, no.... my wife says no way!
        > Best,
        > Fred Friedman
        > On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:25 PM, apbarrie wrote:
        >
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > >
        > > dating this is a tough one.
        > >
        > > why, as there are several contradictory features.
        > >
        > > But roughly about WW1 or earlier., but defiantly dry plate (the
        > > multiple hatches on the back were for putting in the separate size
        > > format negs), but not film (film of a large area needed flattening,
        > > and the only way to do that was to draw it flat backwards against a
        > > reslieu plate [super flat metal or glass], by use of a vacuum pump,
        > > no pump no film.)... many printers still used a version of the wet
        > > plate process called stripping wet plate, even up to the 1970's,
        > > where the glass was coated BEFORE the collodion was put on, so that
        > > the collodion could be peeled off after it had dried. and used like
        > > film, but with the base flatness of glass negs. too many hatches and
        > > hinges for wet plate, as the emulsion can gum those up. hence plates.
        > >
        > > the Knife Cut (square edges) bellows generally went out by the end
        > > of WW1 in Process cameras, as "most" bellows manufacturers caught up
        > > normal camera manufacturers who had given knife cut bellows in the
        > > 1890's. (Though not all did, and the bellows could be a replacement
        > > set.) and settled on the normal tapered edges.. I say most, but not
        > > all. (the Penrose annual did not take adds from other process camera
        > > makers, and there are to many other printers/process magazines I
        > > know of other than 'The Inland Printer', which I have seen early
        > > copies of ages ago, but no access to them now...)
        > >
        > > you pointed to the lens hood, and this is a clue that it was used in
        > > a daylight process studio... as normal process light were shielded
        > > and only directed their light at what was being copied, and so there
        > > was no need for lens hoods normally. (also it is rare.!..), but no
        > > filter attachment (well probably missing), as filters were in common
        > > use for colour separations. (yes they doped the wet plate emulsions
        > > to be panchro, not ortho as in t he real wet plate days). the lens
        > > may be more modern, 1920's or 30's....
        > >
        > > someone seems to have added a fancy coffee table type top under the
        > > camera on the camera bed. and there is a small strip on the bottom
        > > edge that would normally have mated with a magnification or measure
        > > scale on the side. also this is a two person camera, with the crank
        > > at the front, needing someone else to turn while another was
        > > adjusting or trying to centre the image in the back.
        > >
        > > I have posted photos showing my big process camera that was built in
        > > 1920, and put on the top of the Mapping & survey dept. in Brisbane
        > > in 1921. (the room was then built around it.) it was used as a wet
        > > plate up till the 1970's. And the rear wooden portion of the camera
        > > is badly corroded. the controls, focus, and even lens shift on my
        > > are all worked from the rear of the camera. Standard lens is a
        > > 1,800mm F18. (but that not it on the camera. the one on the camera
        > > is a WW2 Aerial lens, because it looks good, sorry about that.... It
        > > is all Spanish Mahogany, and i bough it for $100... but it has cost
        > > me thousands in storing it it over the decades. (it was rejected by
        > > the Queensland Museum, and was about to be chopped up by a chain saw
        > > when I rescued it. a slightly smaller version unfortunately was
        > > chopped up the day before I heard about this one, and went to the
        > > state premier, and had its destruction stopped and finally got it. I
        > > had to totally dismantle it, to get it in a normal lift (because of
        > > the room being built around it)...
        > >
        > > Regards
        > >
        > > Sandy Barrie.
        > >
        > > Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional
        > > Photography.
        > > Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On 07/04/2009, at 9:36 PM, eric evans wrote:
        > >
        > >> I've now posted in my album (top left, look for eric evans) some
        > >> pictures of the Process? Camera that I acquired yesterday. At 36"
        > >> long by 20" high by 16" wide, it is quite small by some people's
        > >> standards, so may not be a process camera after all. (I am still
        > >> reeling from having seen on the internet that one of Sandy's, as
        > >> big as a house and twice as beautiful.). Any help with
        > >> identification would be gratefully received.
        > >> It has a Ross, London, 13inch, Apo Process Xpres, f9, No.163479
        > >> lens. I would have thought that the large lens hood in the form of
        > >> a truncated pyramid might have been a useful point of reference for
        > >> identification, but what do I know?
        > >> There has been a quite large maker's plate, about six inches by
        > >> two, on the top of the rear standard, but that's long gone. Or it
        > >> may have been a handle, only the mark remains.
        > >> Focusing is by endless screw with a crank handle that can be
        > >> switched from front of chassis to rear. A lot of concentric hinged
        > >> doors at the back, which can each be opened separately; what's that
        > >> all about? They are aft of a plate glass platen, unground, which is
        > >> present and miraculously unbroken, and of which I cannot guess the
        > >> purpose; it is where a ground glass ought to be, to my simple way
        > >> of thinking.
        > >> Can someone please educate me? And if that is not possible, at
        > >> least put a name to the camera?
        > >> Yours in greater hope than expectation,
        > >> Eric.
        > >> (A few new additions on my web site: www.woodandbrass.co.uk
        > >> but this newest one isn't there yet.).
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • apbarrie
        Hi, the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original story) it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers would know it.
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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          Hi,

          the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original story)

          it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers would know it.

          it was for "Screening" Apertures. the lens was put to full diaphragm aperture and this special aperture dropped in that slot.

          what is did was to 'modify' the shape of the dot formed on the printing plate. They were experimenting with non circular dots, then when they were experimenting in colour printing., where as today, almost everything, used circular dots. 

          (Agfa's famous 'Crystal' raster was an unusual non regular screen pattern, but still used circular dots..)

          This was almost totally given up by the 1920's. so that sort of dates the lens...

          you may want to post this for others, just in case.

          Regards

          Sandy




          Sandy Barrie.

          Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.
          Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.





          On 08/04/2009, at 8:09 PM, eric evans wrote:

          Hi Sandy,
          Thanks for that full and helpful contribution. I suppose I know as much about it now as I ever shall.
          A coupla points, for information:
          1.The crank handle for focusing can be used at the back as well as the front of the camera, so one-man operation would have been possible, though not easy.
          2. The lens has an iris diaphragm, but it is also cut, as if for Waterhouse stops; in the light of what you have said, this has to be a filter slot, I guess, so you have solved that one for me thanks, I wondered what that was.
          3. The fancy coffee table is actually my hall table, where the beast will have to live, henceforth. The camera finishes where the coffee table starts; it is a very small one by your standards. I think it's decorative; my wife, now passed on bless her, would not have agreed, I know full well........ in fact, I doubt it would even have got past the front door. I'd rather have her here than the camera, but hey, we have to take life as it comes.
          I applaud the tremendous efforts you must have made to preserve your big 'un, and I applaud even more the sentiments behind what you did. Good on yer, Sandy.
          Thanks and best regards,
          Eric.

          --- In woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com, apbarrie <apbarrie@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > dating this is a tough one.
          >
          > why, as there are several contradictory features.
          >
          > But roughly about WW1 or earlier., but defiantly dry plate (the
          > multiple hatches on the back were for putting in the separate size
          > format negs), but not film (film of a large area needed flattening,
          > and the only way to do that was to draw it flat backwards against a
          > reslieu plate [super flat metal or glass], by use of a vacuum pump, no
          > pump no film.)... many printers still used a version of the wet plate
          > process called stripping wet plate, even up to the 1970's, where the
          > glass was coated BEFORE the collodion was put on, so that the
          > collodion could be peeled off after it had dried. and used like film,
          > but with the base flatness of glass negs. too many hatches and hinges
          > for wet plate, as the emulsion can gum those up. hence plates.
          >
          > the Knife Cut (square edges) bellows generally went out by the end of
          > WW1 in Process cameras, as "most" bellows manufacturers caught up
          > normal camera manufacturers who had given knife cut bellows in the
          > 1890's. (Though not all did, and the bellows could be a replacement
          > set.) and settled on the normal tapered edges.. I say most, but not
          > all. (the Penrose annual did not take adds from other process camera
          > makers, and there are to many other printers/process magazines I know
          > of other than 'The Inland Printer', which I have seen early copies of
          > ages ago, but no access to them now...)
          >
          > you pointed to the lens hood, and this is a clue that it was used in a
          > daylight process studio... as normal process light were shielded and
          > only directed their light at what was being copied, and so there was
          > no need for lens hoods normally. (also it is rare.!..), but no filter
          > attachment (well probably missing), as filters were in common use for
          > colour separations. (yes they doped the wet plate emulsions to be
          > panchro, not ortho as in the real wet plate days). the lens may be
          > more modern, 1920's or 30's....
          >
          > someone seems to have added a fancy coffee table type top under the
          > camera on the camera bed. and there is a small strip on the bottom
          > edge that would normally have mated with a magnification or measure
          > scale on the side. also this is a two person camera, with the crank at
          > the front, needing someone else to turn while another was adjusting or
          > trying to centre the image in the back.
          >
          > I have posted photos showing my big process camera that was built in
          > 1920, and put on the top of the Mapping & survey dept. in Brisbane in
          > 1921. (the room was then built around it.) it was used as a wet plate
          > up till the 1970's. And the rear wooden portion of the camera is badly
          > corroded. the controls, focus, and even lens shift on my are all
          > worked from the rear of the camera. Standard lens is a 1,800mm F18.
          > (but that not it on the camera. the one on the camera is a WW2 Aerial
          > lens, because it looks good, sorry about that.... It is all Spanish
          > Mahogany, and i bough it for $100... but it has cost me thousands in
          > storing it it over the decades. (it was rejected by the Queensland
          > Museum, and was about to be chopped up by a chain saw when I rescued
          > it. a slightly smaller version unfortunately was chopped up the day
          > before I heard about this one, and went to the state premier, and had
          > its destruction stopped and finally got it. I had to totally dismantle
          > it, to get it in a normal lift (because of the room being built around
          > it)...
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Sandy Barrie.
          >
          > Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.
          > Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On 07/04/2009, at 9:36 PM, eric evans wrote:
          >
          > > I've now posted in my album (top left, look for eric evans) some
          > > pictures of the Process? Camera that I acquired yesterday. At 36"
          > > long by 20" high by 16" wide, it is quite small by some people's
          > > standards, so may not be a process camera after all. (I am still
          > > reeling from having seen on the internet that one of Sandy's, as big
          > > as a house and twice as beautiful.). Any help with identification
          > > would be gratefully received.
          > > It has a Ross, London, 13inch, Apo Process Xpres, f9, No.163479
          > > lens. I would have thought that the large lens hood in the form of a
          > > truncated pyramid might have been a useful point of reference for
          > > identification, but what do I know?
          > > There has been a quite large maker's plate, about six inches by two,
          > > on the top of the rear standard, but that's long gone. Or it may
          > > have been a handle, only the mark remains.
          > > Focusing is by endless screw with a crank handle that can be
          > > switched from front of chassis to rear. A lot of concentric hinged
          > > doors at the back, which can each be opened separately; what's that
          > > all about? They are aft of a plate glass platen, unground, which is
          > > present and miraculously unbroken, and of which I cannot guess the
          > > purpose; it is where a ground glass ought to be, to my simple way of
          > > thinking.
          > > Can someone please educate me? And if that is not possible, at least
          > > put a name to the camera?
          > > Yours in greater hope than expectation,
          > > Eric.
          > > (A few new additions on my web site: www.woodandbrass. co.uk
          > > but this newest one isn't there yet.).
          > >
          > >
          >


        • apbarrie
          Hi, that is why I am single... Regards Sandy Barrie. Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography. Valuer Appointed, Federal
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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            Hi,

            that is why I am single...

            Regards

            Sandy Barrie.

            Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.
            Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.





            On 08/04/2009, at 8:20 PM, eric evans wrote:

            Hi Fred,
            On the topic of wives vs. cameras, see what I have written to Sandy. If Maureen was still here, there's no way that camera would have got through the front door!
            Best regards,
            Eric.

            --- In woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com, Fred /Maren Friedman <marenfred@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Sandy, Eric, and Marcel,
            > These cameras are AMAZING. Hey, I could park my Toyota Prius in one of
            > them. Thank you for opening up a new field of interest. I never really
            > paid attention to these monsters although I was vaguely aware of their
            > existence.
            > And, no.... my wife says no way!
            > Best,
            > Fred Friedman
            > On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:25 PM, apbarrie wrote:
            >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > >
            > > dating this is a tough one.
            > >
            > > why, as there are several contradictory features.
            > >
            > > But roughly about WW1 or earlier., but defiantly dry plate (the
            > > multiple hatches on the back were for putting in the separate size
            > > format negs), but not film (film of a large area needed flattening,
            > > and the only way to do that was to draw it flat backwards against a
            > > reslieu plate [super flat metal or glass], by use of a vacuum pump,
            > > no pump no film.)... many printers still used a version of the wet
            > > plate process called stripping wet plate, even up to the 1970's,
            > > where the glass was coated BEFORE the collodion was put on, so that
            > > the collodion could be peeled off after it had dried. and used like
            > > film, but with the base flatness of glass negs. too many hatches and
            > > hinges for wet plate, as the emulsion can gum those up. hence plates.
            > >
            > > the Knife Cut (square edges) bellows generally went out by the end
            > > of WW1 in Process cameras, as "most" bellows manufacturers caught up
            > > normal camera manufacturers who had given knife cut bellows in the
            > > 1890's. (Though not all did, and the bellows could be a replacement
            > > set.) and settled on the normal tapered edges.. I say most, but not
            > > all. (the Penrose annual did not take adds from other process camera
            > > makers, and there are to many other printers/process magazines I
            > > know of other than 'The Inland Printer', which I have seen early
            > > copies of ages ago, but no access to them now...)
            > >
            > > you pointed to the lens hood, and this is a clue that it was used in
            > > a daylight process studio... as normal process light were shielded
            > > and only directed their light at what was being copied, and so there
            > > was no need for lens hoods normally. (also it is rare.!..), but no
            > > filter attachment (well probably missing), as filters were in common
            > > use for colour separations. (yes they doped the wet plate emulsions
            > > to be panchro, not ortho as in t he real wet plate days). the lens
            > > may be more modern, 1920's or 30's....
            > >
            > > someone seems to have added a fancy coffee table type top under the
            > > camera on the camera bed. and there is a small strip on the bottom
            > > edge that would normally have mated with a magnification or measure
            > > scale on the side. also this is a two person camera, with the crank
            > > at the front, needing someone else to turn while another was
            > > adjusting or trying to centre the image in the back.
            > >
            > > I have posted photos showing my big process camera that was built in
            > > 1920, and put on the top of the Mapping & survey dept. in Brisbane
            > > in 1921. (the room was then built around it.) it was used as a wet
            > > plate up till the 1970's. And the rear wooden portion of the camera
            > > is badly corroded. the controls, focus, and even lens shift on my
            > > are all worked from the rear of the camera. Standard lens is a
            > > 1,800mm F18. (but that not it on the camera. the one on the camera
            > > is a WW2 Aerial lens, because it looks good, sorry about that.... It
            > > is all Spanish Mahogany, and i bough it for $100... but it has cost
            > > me thousands in storing it it over the decades. (it was rejected by
            > > the Queensland Museum, and was about to be chopped up by a chain saw
            > > when I rescued it. a slightly smaller version unfortunately was
            > > chopped up the day before I heard about this one, and went to the
            > > state premier, and had its destruction stopped and finally got it. I
            > > had to totally dismantle it, to get it in a normal lift (because of
            > > the room being built around it)...
            > >
            > > Regards
            > >
            > > Sandy Barrie.
            > >
            > > Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional
            > > Photography.
            > > Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On 07/04/2009, at 9:36 PM, eric evans wrote:
            > >
            > >> I've now posted in my album (top left, look for eric evans) some
            > >> pictures of the Process? Camera that I acquired yesterday. At 36"
            > >> long by 20" high by 16" wide, it is quite small by some people's
            > >> standards, so may not be a process camera after all. (I am still
            > >> reeling from having seen on the internet that one of Sandy's, as
            > >> big as a house and twice as beautiful.). Any help with
            > >> identification would be gratefully received.
            > >> It has a Ross, London, 13inch, Apo Process Xpres, f9, No.163479
            > >> lens. I would have thought that the large lens hood in the form of
            > >> a truncated pyramid might have been a useful point of reference for
            > >> identification, but what do I know?
            > >> There has been a quite large maker's plate, about six inches by
            > >> two, on the top of the rear standard, but that's long gone. Or it
            > >> may have been a handle, only the mark remains.
            > >> Focusing is by endless screw with a crank handle that can be
            > >> switched from front of chassis to rear. A lot of concentric hinged
            > >> doors at the back, which can each be opened separately; what's that
            > >> all about? They are aft of a plate glass platen, unground, which is
            > >> present and miraculously unbroken, and of which I cannot guess the
            > >> purpose; it is where a ground glass ought to be, to my simple way
            > >> of thinking.
            > >> Can someone please educate me? And if that is not possible, at
            > >> least put a name to the camera?
            > >> Yours in greater hope than expectation,
            > >> Eric.
            > >> (A few new additions on my web site: www.woodandbrass. co.uk
            > >> but this newest one isn't there yet.).
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >


          • eric evans
            Thanks again, Sandy. It s beginning to look more and more like pre-WW1, if that type of lens was becoming obsolete by the 20s. Sometimes seems to me that, the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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              Thanks again, Sandy. It's beginning to look more and more like pre-WW1, if that type of lens was becoming obsolete by the 20s. Sometimes seems to me that, the more I learn about photography, the less I know about photography. Something new every day. Thanks.
              Best regards,
              Eric.


              --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, apbarrie <apbarrie@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original
              > story)
              >
              > it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers
              > would know it.
              >
              > it was for "Screening" Apertures. the lens was put to full diaphragm
              > aperture and this special aperture dropped in that slot.
              >
              > what is did was to 'modify' the shape of the dot formed on the
              > printing plate. They were experimenting with non circular dots, then
              > when they were experimenting in colour printing., where as today,
              > almost everything, used circular dots.
              >
              > (Agfa's famous 'Crystal' raster was an unusual non regular screen
              > pattern, but still used circular dots..)
              >
              > This was almost totally given up by the 1920's. so that sort of dates
              > the lens...
              >
              > you may want to post this for others, just in case.
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Sandy
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Sandy Barrie.
              >
              > Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.
              > Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On 08/04/2009, at 8:09 PM, eric evans wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Sandy,
              > > Thanks for that full and helpful contribution. I suppose I know as
              > > much about it now as I ever shall.
              > > A coupla points, for information:
              > > 1.The crank handle for focusing can be used at the back as well as
              > > the front of the camera, so one-man operation would have been
              > > possible, though not easy.
              > > 2. The lens has an iris diaphragm, but it is also cut, as if for
              > > Waterhouse stops; in the light of what you have said, this has to be
              > > a filter slot, I guess, so you have solved that one for me thanks, I
              > > wondered what that was.
              > > 3. The fancy coffee table is actually my hall table, where the beast
              > > will have to live, henceforth. The camera finishes where the coffee
              > > table starts; it is a very small one by your standards. I think it's
              > > decorative; my wife, now passed on bless her, would not have agreed,
              > > I know full well........in fact, I doubt it would even have got past
              > > the front door. I'd rather have her here than the camera, but hey,
              > > we have to take life as it comes.
              > > I applaud the tremendous efforts you must have made to preserve your
              > > big 'un, and I applaud even more the sentiments behind what you did.
              > > Good on yer, Sandy.
              > > Thanks and best regards,
              > > Eric.
              > >
              > > --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, apbarrie <apbarrie@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi,
              > > >
              > > > dating this is a tough one.
              > > >
              > > > why, as there are several contradictory features.
              > > >
              > > > But roughly about WW1 or earlier., but defiantly dry plate (the
              > > > multiple hatches on the back were for putting in the separate size
              > > > format negs), but not film (film of a large area needed flattening,
              > > > and the only way to do that was to draw it flat backwards against a
              > > > reslieu plate [super flat metal or glass], by use of a vacuum
              > > pump, no
              > > > pump no film.)... many printers still used a version of the wet
              > > plate
              > > > process called stripping wet plate, even up to the 1970's, where the
              > > > glass was coated BEFORE the collodion was put on, so that the
              > > > collodion could be peeled off after it had dried. and used like
              > > film,
              > > > but with the base flatness of glass negs. too many hatches and
              > > hinges
              > > > for wet plate, as the emulsion can gum those up. hence plates.
              > > >
              > > > the Knife Cut (square edges) bellows generally went out by the end
              > > of
              > > > WW1 in Process cameras, as "most" bellows manufacturers caught up
              > > > normal camera manufacturers who had given knife cut bellows in the
              > > > 1890's. (Though not all did, and the bellows could be a replacement
              > > > set.) and settled on the normal tapered edges.. I say most, but not
              > > > all. (the Penrose annual did not take adds from other process camera
              > > > makers, and there are to many other printers/process magazines I
              > > know
              > > > of other than 'The Inland Printer', which I have seen early copies
              > > of
              > > > ages ago, but no access to them now...)
              > > >
              > > > you pointed to the lens hood, and this is a clue that it was used
              > > in a
              > > > daylight process studio... as normal process light were shielded and
              > > > only directed their light at what was being copied, and so there was
              > > > no need for lens hoods normally. (also it is rare.!..), but no
              > > filter
              > > > attachment (well probably missing), as filters were in common use
              > > for
              > > > colour separations. (yes they doped the wet plate emulsions to be
              > > > panchro, not ortho as in the real wet plate days). the lens may be
              > > > more modern, 1920's or 30's....
              > > >
              > > > someone seems to have added a fancy coffee table type top under the
              > > > camera on the camera bed. and there is a small strip on the bottom
              > > > edge that would normally have mated with a magnification or measure
              > > > scale on the side. also this is a two person camera, with the
              > > crank at
              > > > the front, needing someone else to turn while another was
              > > adjusting or
              > > > trying to centre the image in the back.
              > > >
              > > > I have posted photos showing my big process camera that was built in
              > > > 1920, and put on the top of the Mapping & survey dept. in Brisbane
              > > in
              > > > 1921. (the room was then built around it.) it was used as a wet
              > > plate
              > > > up till the 1970's. And the rear wooden portion of the camera is
              > > badly
              > > > corroded. the controls, focus, and even lens shift on my are all
              > > > worked from the rear of the camera. Standard lens is a 1,800mm F18.
              > > > (but that not it on the camera. the one on the camera is a WW2
              > > Aerial
              > > > lens, because it looks good, sorry about that.... It is all Spanish
              > > > Mahogany, and i bough it for $100... but it has cost me thousands in
              > > > storing it it over the decades. (it was rejected by the Queensland
              > > > Museum, and was about to be chopped up by a chain saw when I rescued
              > > > it. a slightly smaller version unfortunately was chopped up the day
              > > > before I heard about this one, and went to the state premier, and
              > > had
              > > > its destruction stopped and finally got it. I had to totally
              > > dismantle
              > > > it, to get it in a normal lift (because of the room being built
              > > around
              > > > it)...
              > > >
              > > > Regards
              > > >
              > > > Sandy Barrie.
              > > >
              > > > Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional
              > > Photography.
              > > > Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On 07/04/2009, at 9:36 PM, eric evans wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > I've now posted in my album (top left, look for eric evans) some
              > > > > pictures of the Process? Camera that I acquired yesterday. At 36"
              > > > > long by 20" high by 16" wide, it is quite small by some people's
              > > > > standards, so may not be a process camera after all. (I am still
              > > > > reeling from having seen on the internet that one of Sandy's, as
              > > big
              > > > > as a house and twice as beautiful.). Any help with identification
              > > > > would be gratefully received.
              > > > > It has a Ross, London, 13inch, Apo Process Xpres, f9, No.163479
              > > > > lens. I would have thought that the large lens hood in the form
              > > of a
              > > > > truncated pyramid might have been a useful point of reference for
              > > > > identification, but what do I know?
              > > > > There has been a quite large maker's plate, about six inches by
              > > two,
              > > > > on the top of the rear standard, but that's long gone. Or it may
              > > > > have been a handle, only the mark remains.
              > > > > Focusing is by endless screw with a crank handle that can be
              > > > > switched from front of chassis to rear. A lot of concentric hinged
              > > > > doors at the back, which can each be opened separately; what's
              > > that
              > > > > all about? They are aft of a plate glass platen, unground, which
              > > is
              > > > > present and miraculously unbroken, and of which I cannot guess the
              > > > > purpose; it is where a ground glass ought to be, to my simple
              > > way of
              > > > > thinking.
              > > > > Can someone please educate me? And if that is not possible, at
              > > least
              > > > > put a name to the camera?
              > > > > Yours in greater hope than expectation,
              > > > > Eric.
              > > > > (A few new additions on my web site: www.woodandbrass.co.uk
              > > > > but this newest one isn't there yet.).
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Marcel Safier
              Eric ... I hope we are still talking process cameras here.... ... Yes my camera like Sandy s was destined for the scrap heap if I had not bought it. Hunter
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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                Eric

                > Size wise, it looks as though I am well third after you and Sandy!

                I hope we are still talking process cameras here....

                > See what I have written to Sandy, about the thoughts behind the
                > rescue of these objects, and which I re-iterate in your case; it's
                > a tough job, but somebody has to do it. A hundred years from now,
                > ours could well be the only three in existence, because we saved
                > them from the chain saw.

                Yes my camera like Sandy's was destined for the scrap heap if I had not bought it.

                Hunter Penrose's website is here:

                http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/

                The company profile has some of the company history:

                http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/HPprofile.pdf

                and some details of their cameras incl. Sandy's is here:

                http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/hp_camera.htm

                Cheers!

                Marcel
                --
                Wood and Brass moderator
              • eric evans
                ... Marcel, If we were talking anything else, I would definitely win, being a Yorkshireman trumps even an Australian........ Regards, Eric.
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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                  --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Safier" <msafier@...> wrote:
                  >
                  Marcel,
                  If we were talking anything else, I would definitely win, being a Yorkshireman trumps even an Australian........
                  Regards,
                  Eric.


                  > Eric
                  >
                  > > Size wise, it looks as though I am well third after you and Sandy!
                  >
                  > I hope we are still talking process cameras here....
                  >
                  > > See what I have written to Sandy, about the thoughts behind the
                  > > rescue of these objects, and which I re-iterate in your case; it's
                  > > a tough job, but somebody has to do it. A hundred years from now,
                  > > ours could well be the only three in existence, because we saved
                  > > them from the chain saw.
                  >
                  > Yes my camera like Sandy's was destined for the scrap heap if I had not bought it.
                  >
                  > Hunter Penrose's website is here:
                  >
                  > http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/
                  >
                  > The company profile has some of the company history:
                  >
                  > http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/HPprofile.pdf
                  >
                  > and some details of their cameras incl. Sandy's is here:
                  >
                  > http://www.hunterpenrose.co.uk/hp_camera.htm
                  >
                  > Cheers!
                  >
                  > Marcel
                  > --
                  > Wood and Brass moderator
                  >
                • Rob McElroy
                  Sandy, Eric, et al., Process lenses with a slot for Waterhouse stops were made continuously through the 1980s and probably beyond, so you can t use the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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                    Sandy, Eric, et al.,

                    Process lenses with a slot for Waterhouse stops were made continuously through the 1980s and probably beyond, so you can't use the presence of the slot on the lens as any kind of dating mechanism for the camera.

                    Fewer and fewer printers experimented with changing the shape of their half-tone dots as the 20th century progressed, especially after color printing became the norm, instead of the exception, in the 1960s and 70s but the slot still existed on the lenses for those printers that wanted the option to do so.  The slot performs double duty, and can hold a filter, diaphragm plate, or both together.  The slot was also made so that the diaphragm plate could be tilted, which also altered the shape of the half tone dot.  I have several Apo-Nikkor lenses made in the 1980s, and they were all originally sold with a set of aperture/diaphragm plates (specific to each lens) where the user could "for special effects, widen and modify the shape of the hole until the desired shape is achieved."

                    Cheers,
                    Rob McElroy
                    Buffalo, NY


                    On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:51 AM, eric evans wrote:

                    Thanks again, Sandy. It's beginning to look more and more like pre-WW1, if that type of lens was becoming obsolete by the 20s.


                    On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:27 AM, apbarrie wrote:

                    Hi,

                    the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original story)

                    it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers would know it.

                    it was for "Screening" Apertures. the lens was put to full diaphragm aperture and this special aperture dropped in that slot.

                    what is did was to 'modify' the shape of the dot formed on the printing plate. They were experimenting with non circular dots, then when they were experimenting in colour printing., where as today, almost everything, used circular dots. 

                    (Agfa's famous 'Crystal' raster was an unusual non regular screen pattern, but still used circular dots..)

                    This was almost totally given up by the 1920's. so that sort of dates the lens...

                    you may want to post this for others, just in case.

                    Regards

                    Sandy
                  • eric evans
                    Hi Rob, Thanks, and like I said, something new every day . I m 79, and still learning. The question is academic, as I have no intention of using the camera,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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                      Hi Rob,
                      Thanks, and like I said, "something new every day". I'm 79, and still learning. The question is academic, as I have no intention of using the camera, even if I knew how, but the more you learn, the more you know, and I am grateful for your input; dating-wise, it's back to the drawing board on this one, but I have enough from Sandy to believe it is about 1914 or earlier.
                      Thanks and Regards,
                      Eric.
                      In Sheffield, Yorkshire, where it is the most brilliant day so far; hope it stays like this for the Easter weekend.


                      --- In woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com, Rob McElroy <idag@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sandy, Eric, et al.,
                      >
                      > Process lenses with a slot for Waterhouse stops were made continuously
                      > through the 1980s and probably beyond, so you can't use the presence
                      > of the slot on the lens as any kind of dating mechanism for the camera.
                      >
                      > Fewer and fewer printers experimented with changing the shape of their
                      > half-tone dots as the 20th century progressed, especially after color
                      > printing became the norm, instead of the exception, in the 1960s and
                      > 70s but the slot still existed on the lenses for those printers that
                      > wanted the option to do so. The slot performs double duty, and can
                      > hold a filter, diaphragm plate, or both together. The slot was also
                      > made so that the diaphragm plate could be tilted, which also altered
                      > the shape of the half tone dot. I have several Apo-Nikkor lenses made
                      > in the 1980s, and they were all originally sold with a set of aperture/
                      > diaphragm plates (specific to each lens) where the user could "for
                      > special effects, widen and modify the shape of the hole until the
                      > desired shape is achieved."
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Rob McElroy
                      > Buffalo, NY
                      >
                      >
                      > On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:51 AM, eric evans wrote:
                      >
                      > > Thanks again, Sandy. It's beginning to look more and more like pre-
                      > > WW1, if that type of lens was becoming obsolete by the 20s.
                      >
                      >
                      > On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:27 AM, apbarrie wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hi,
                      > >
                      > > the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original
                      > > story)
                      > >
                      > > it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers
                      > > would know it.
                      > >
                      > > it was for "Screening" Apertures. the lens was put to full diaphragm
                      > > aperture and this special aperture dropped in that slot.
                      > >
                      > > what is did was to 'modify' the shape of the dot formed on the
                      > > printing plate. They were experimenting with non circular dots, then
                      > > when they were experimenting in colour printing., where as today,
                      > > almost everything, used circular dots.
                      > >
                      > > (Agfa's famous 'Crystal' raster was an unusual non regular screen
                      > > pattern, but still used circular dots..)
                      > >
                      > > This was almost totally given up by the 1920's. so that sort of
                      > > dates the lens...
                      > >
                      > > you may want to post this for others, just in case.
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > >
                      > > Sandy
                      >
                    • apbarrie
                      Hi, I was going on what I have in My Penrose annuals. Regards Sandy Barrie. Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography. Valuer
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 8, 2009
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                        Hi,

                        I was going on what I have in My Penrose annuals.

                        Regards

                        Sandy Barrie.

                        Honorary Life Member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.
                        Valuer Appointed, Federal Government Dept. Arts Sport & Tourism.





                        On 09/04/2009, at 2:20 AM, Rob McElroy wrote:

                        Sandy, Eric, et al.,


                        Process lenses with a slot for Waterhouse stops were made continuously through the 1980s and probably beyond, so you can't use the presence of the slot on the lens as any kind of dating mechanism for the camera.

                        Fewer and fewer printers experimented with changing the shape of their half-tone dots as the 20th century progressed, especially after color printing became the norm, instead of the exception, in the 1960s and 70s but the slot still existed on the lenses for those printers that wanted the option to do so.  The slot performs double duty, and can hold a filter, diaphragm plate, or both together.  The slot was also made so that the diaphragm plate could be tilted, which also altered the shape of the half tone dot.  I have several Apo-Nikkor lenses made in the 1980s, and they were all originally sold with a set of aperture/diaphragm plates (specific to each lens) where the user could "for special effects, widen and modify the shape of the hole until the desired shape is achieved."

                        Cheers,
                        Rob McElroy
                        Buffalo, NY


                        On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:51 AM, eric evans wrote:

                        Thanks again, Sandy. It's beginning to look more and more like pre-WW1, if that type of lens was becoming obsolete by the 20s.


                        On Apr 8, 2009, at 6:27 AM, apbarrie wrote:

                        Hi,

                        the slot in the lens new is additional data... (not in the original story)

                        it was not for the waterhouse type aperture as most photographers would know it.

                        it was for "Screening" Apertures. the lens was put to full diaphragm aperture and this special aperture dropped in that slot.

                        what is did was to 'modify' the shape of the dot formed on the printing plate. They were experimenting with non circular dots, then when they were experimenting in colour printing., where as today, almost everything, used circular dots. 

                        (Agfa's famous 'Crystal' raster was an unusual non regular screen pattern, but still used circular dots..)

                        This was almost totally given up by the 1920's. so that sort of dates the lens...

                        you may want to post this for others, just in case.

                        Regards

                        Sandy


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