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RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

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  • Milan Zahorcak
    With proper daily care, I m almost certain that there is little danger of any further Xit outbreaks . . . mz ... From: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
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      Message
       
      With proper daily care, I'm almost certain that there is little danger of any further Xit outbreaks . . .
       
      mz
       
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JCR Cameras
      Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:37 AM
      To: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

      Hi Milan,

      The table top finish looks great. Thanks for the modus operandi.

      But is the surface camera proof, especially to Xits? Ralph and Rob will need to know for future reference.

      Best Wishes,

      John

      From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
      Sent: 20 November 2008 17:28
      To: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

      . . . and because I know that a number of you are dying to find out how my refinished kitchen table came out, this update to my posting of three ago.

      After 3 months of continuous use, I am astounded how much better this finish is than the previous one.  The product is Minwax Wipe-On Poly in a clear satin finish.  Very easy to use.  Levels beautifully (I thinned it to 50% with mineral spirits and applied several more coats).  Incredibly tough, hard and resistant to everything.  And best of all, the newspaper leaves no newsprint ink stains at all!

      I have no idea what the chemistry is between newsprint and table finish, but apparently some finishes are far more susceptible to ink transfer than others.  The Wipe-on Poly seems to be almost completely immune.  I'm very pleased.

      And! I'm almost certain this is the finish that Rob used on his teeny Xit . . . just to irk him (or Ralph) into responding.

      Exciting stuff, eh?  OK, that's it . . . back to cameras, etc.

      mz 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
      Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:47 AM
      To: Wood & Brass
      Subject: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst

      Greetings and grumbles:

      A bit off-topic, but it does involve wood and chrome-plated something.

      This is what Americans do before breakfast on Saturday when their wives are out of town for the Labor Day Weekend . . . refinish the kitchen table.  It may not be obvious, but it is wet.

      We've had this table longer than we've been married . . . an odd and difficult story that my wife hates my telling in public.  Let's just say that 35 years ago the table was a commissioned piece and it was ready before we were.

      It's 2.5" thick rock maple butcher block and weighs just over 300 lbs.  For the first 30 years, it was raw wood, routinely cleaned and treated with food grade mineral oil.  Periodically it would have to be cleaned down to bare wood and the process started over.  It looked good the afternoon that it was cleaned, but with use - as a kitchen table - it quickly came to look like it was being used as a butcher's block.  Especially since it also served as my work surface for everything that I did.  My wife hated that as well.

      At any rate, bare wood with an oil finish.  

      Several years ago, American newspapers switched to a soy-based ink that never really dried. And since we get a newspaper delivered everyday (at about 5 AM), by the end of breakfast, both the reader and the table were covered with newsprint, and in some cases, a truly marvelous transfer of entire ads from the newspaper to the table top where the readers elbow pressed down.

      For all practical purposes the table had to be cleaned daily and the wood - and the reader - hated it.

      Now for decades, I puzzled over why I was using food grade mineral oil since no one ever cut or chopped food on the table and it was a pain to clean.  Why not just finish it?  But there was no arguing with tradition . . . until the soy ink newspapers started arriving a few years back.

      Well, a few years ago, the kids finally left the house, perhaps not quite for good, but at least for long stretches at a time, and one weekend, I cleaned the table down to bare wood, and finished it for the first time.  Danish oil, I think.  That was good for about a year, and I hated it.  Then I tried Tung oil . . . hated it.  Then I tried . . . something else that I hated.

      OK, it's a kitchen table.  I have every kind of shellac ever made and most lacquers (used to do cameras and still do lenses, remember), but neither of those products can stand up to the wear of a kitchen table . . . but I hated the thought of polyurethane.

      But polyurethane does have the advantage of being tough as nails, can resist water and vodka spills . . . what? there are lots of perfectly good reasons why 100 proof vodka might occasionally be spilled on a kitchen table . . . makes for a great solvent for old shellac for instance . . .

      At any rate, this is it.  Cleaned and sanded the table last night.  Put on a spit-coat of wipe-on poly . . . also known as a sealer or sanding coat:  50% mineral spirits, 50% poly.  First coat, of slightly diluted poly went on a few minutes ago - I'm doing the labor intensive hand-rubbed version in a satin finish, and now I have 3 hours to kill before I can finish sand and apply a second coat.  3rd coat tonight.  24 hours to dry.  Then rubbed down and waxed. 

      Has to be a done deal before Claudia gets back . . . all the guys are no doubt familiar with the old maxim:  "Easier to get forgiveness than to get permission."

      So far, looks like it might work, but the fumes in the kitchen are overwhelming, and I'm afraid to turn on the stove for fear of having the north side of the house explode.

      And that's it . . . any one else doing anything interesting this weekend?

      mz

      PS:  Yes, that is my wife's collection of oddly colored and inexplicable everyday tableware in the background.  No, I don't know why she collects that stuff . . . probably to get back at me, and to preempt the counter space for fear that my lenses will once again occupy that space. 

      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
      Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1801 - Release Date: 11/20/2008 9:11 AM

    • Rob Niederman
      Okay … I’m responding … work is very busy this morning. On the topic of finishes … I prefer to use excessive amounts of clear coat, high heat
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
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        Okay … I’m responding … work is very busy this morning.

         

        On the topic of finishes … I prefer to use excessive amounts of clear coat, high heat automotive spray paint. Not only is the stuff durable in keeping finishes nice and shiny, you never know what will happen at Milan’s house. After all, W&B cameras have “accidentally” found their way into his fireplace … the product is good up to continuous temps of 1200°F.

         

        - Rob

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
        Sent:
        Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:28 AM
        To: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

         

        . . . and because I know that a number of you are dying to find out how my refinished kitchen table came out, this update to my posting of three ago.

         

        After 3 months of continuous use, I am astounded how much better this finish is than the previous one.  The product is Minwax Wipe-On Poly in a clear satin finish.  Very easy to use.  Levels beautifully (I thinned it to 50% with mineral spirits and applied several more coats).  Incredibly tough, hard and resistant to everything.  And best of all, the newspaper leaves no newsprint ink stains at all!

         

         

        I have no idea what the chemistry is between newsprint and table finish, but apparently some finishes are far more susceptible to ink transfer than others.  The Wipe-on Poly seems to be almost completely immune.  I'm very pleased.

         

        And! I'm almost certain this is the finish that Rob used on his teeny Xit . . . just to irk him (or Ralph) into responding.

         

        Exciting stuff, eh?  OK, that's it . . . back to cameras, etc.

         

        mz 

         

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
        Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:47 AM
        To: Wood & Brass
        Subject: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst

        Greetings and grumbles:

         

        A bit off-topic, but it does involve wood and chrome-plated something.

         

        This is what Americans do before breakfast on Saturday when their wives are out of town for the Labor Day Weekend . . . refinish the kitchen table.  It may not be obvious, but it is wet.

         

        We've had this table longer than we've been married . . . an odd and difficult story that my wife hates my telling in public.  Let's just say that 35 years ago the table was a commissioned piece and it was ready before we were.

         

        It's 2.5" thick rock maple butcher block and weighs just over 300 lbs.  For the first 30 years, it was raw wood, routinely cleaned and treated with food grade mineral oil.  Periodically it would have to be cleaned down to bare wood and the process started over.  It looked good the afternoon that it was cleaned, but with use - as a kitchen table - it quickly came to look like it was being used as a butcher's block.  Especially since it also served as my work surface for everything that I did.  My wife hated that as well.

         

        At any rate, bare wood with an oil finish.  

         

        Several years ago, American newspapers switched to a soy-based ink that never really dried. And since we get a newspaper delivered everyday (at about 5 AM), by the end of breakfast, both the reader and the table were covered with newsprint, and in some cases, a truly marvelous transfer of entire ads from the newspaper to the table top where the readers elbow pressed down.

         

        For all practical purposes the table had to be cleaned daily and the wood - and the reader - hated it.

         

        Now for decades, I puzzled over why I was using food grade mineral oil since no one ever cut or chopped food on the table and it was a pain to clean.  Why not just finish it?  But there was no arguing with tradition . . . until the soy ink newspapers started arriving a few years back.

         

        Well, a few years ago, the kids finally left the house, perhaps not quite for good, but at least for long stretches at a time, and one weekend, I cleaned the table down to bare wood, and finished it for the first time.  Danish oil, I think.  That was good for about a year, and I hated it.  Then I tried Tung oil . . . hated it.  Then I tried . . . something else that I hated.

         

        OK, it's a kitchen table.  I have every kind of shellac ever made and most lacquers (used to do cameras and still do lenses, remember), but neither of those products can stand up to the wear of a kitchen table . . . but I hated the thought of polyurethane.

         

        But polyurethane does have the advantage of being tough as nails, can resist water and vodka spills . . . what? there are lots of perfectly good reasons why 100 proof vodka might occasionally be spilled on a kitchen table . . . makes for a great solvent for old shellac for instance . . .

         

        At any rate, this is it.  Cleaned and sanded the table last night.  Put on a spit-coat of wipe-on poly . . . also known as a sealer or sanding coat:  50% mineral spirits, 50% poly.  First coat, of slightly diluted poly went on a few minutes ago - I'm doing the labor intensive hand-rubbed version in a satin finish, and now I have 3 hours to kill before I can finish sand and apply a second coat.  3rd coat tonight.  24 hours to dry.  Then rubbed down and waxed. 

         

        Has to be a done deal before Claudia gets back . . . all the guys are no doubt familiar with the old maxim:  "Easier to get forgiveness than to get permission."

         

        So far, looks like it might work, but the fumes in the kitchen are overwhelming, and I'm afraid to turn on the stove for fear of having the north side of the house explode.

         

        And that's it . . . any one else doing anything interesting this weekend?

         

        mz

         

        PS:  Yes, that is my wife's collection of oddly colored and inexplicable everyday tableware in the background.  No, I don't know why she collects that stuff . . . probably to get back at me, and to preempt the counter space for fear that my lenses will once again occupy that space. 

         

      • Fred Friedman
        Ah, Milan Have you checked the finish using one of your lenses - and assuming the glass is clean, what deterioration, if any, did the exam show? Glad you are
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
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          Ah, Milan
          Have you checked the finish using one of your lenses - and assuming the glass is clean, what deterioration, if any, did the exam show? 
          Glad you are back online with us. Miss you when you are otherwise occupied!
          Fred
          On Nov 20, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Milan Zahorcak wrote:


          . . . and because I know that a number of you are dying to find out how my refinished kitchen table came out, this update to my posting of three ago.
           
          After 3 months of continuous use, I am astounded how much better this finish is than the previous one.  The product is Minwax Wipe-On Poly in a clear satin finish.  Very easy to use.  Levels beautifully (I thinned it to 50% with mineral spirits and applied several more coats).  Incredibly tough, hard and resistant to everything.  And best of all, the newspaper leaves no newsprint ink stains at all!
           
          <Outlook.bmp>
           
          I have no idea what the chemistry is between newsprint and table finish, but apparently some finishes are far more susceptible to ink transfer than others.  The Wipe-on Poly seems to be almost completely immune.  I'm very pleased.
           
          And! I'm almost certain this is the finish that Rob used on his teeny Xit . . . just to irk him (or Ralph) into responding.
           
          Exciting stuff, eh?  OK, that's it . . . back to cameras, etc.
           
          mz 
           
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
          Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:47 AM
          To: Wood & Brass
          Subject: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst


          Greetings and grumbles:
           
          A bit off-topic, but it does involve wood and chrome-plated something.
           
          This is what Americans do before breakfast on Saturday when their wives are out of town for the Labor Day Weekend . . . refinish the kitchen table.  It may not be obvious, but it is wet.
           
          We've had this table longer than we've been married . . . an odd and difficult story that my wife hates my telling in public.  Let's just say that 35 years ago the table was a commissioned piece and it was ready before we were.
           
          It's 2.5" thick rock maple butcher block and weighs just over 300 lbs.  For the first 30 years, it was raw wood, routinely cleaned and treated with food grade mineral oil.  Periodically it would have to be cleaned down to bare wood and the process started over.  It looked good the afternoon that it was cleaned, but with use - as a kitchen table - it quickly came to look like it was being used as a butcher's block.  Especially since it also served as my work surface for everything that I did.  My wife hated that as well.
           
          At any rate, bare wood with an oil finish.  
           
          Several years ago, American newspapers switched to a soy-based ink that never really dried. And since we get a newspaper delivered everyday (at about 5 AM), by the end of breakfast, both the reader and the table were covered with newsprint, and in some cases, a truly marvelous transfer of entire ads from the newspaper to the table top where the readers elbow pressed down.
           
          For all practical purposes the table had to be cleaned daily and the wood - and the reader - hated it.
           
          Now for decades, I puzzled over why I was using food grade mineral oil since no one ever cut or chopped food on the table and it was a pain to clean.  Why not just finish it?  But there was no arguing with tradition . . . until the soy ink newspapers started arriving a few years back.
           
          Well, a few years ago, the kids finally left the house, perhaps not quite for good, but at least for long stretches at a time, and one weekend, I cleaned the table down to bare wood, and finished it for the first time.  Danish oil, I think.  That was good for about a year, and I hated it.  Then I tried Tung oil . . . hated it.  Then I tried . . . something else that I hated.
           
          OK, it's a kitchen table.  I have every kind of shellac ever made and most lacquers (used to do cameras and still do lenses, remember), but neither of those products can stand up to the wear of a kitchen table . . . but I hated the thought of polyurethane.
           
          But polyurethane does have the advantage of being tough as nails, can resist water and vodka spills . . . what? there are lots of perfectly good reasons why 100 proof vodka might occasionally be spilled on a kitchen table . . . makes for a great solvent for old shellac for instance . . .
           
          At any rate, this is it.  Cleaned and sanded the table last night.  Put on a spit-coat of wipe-on poly . . . also known as a sealer or sanding coat:  50% mineral spirits, 50% poly.  First coat, of slightly diluted poly went on a few minutes ago - I'm doing the labor intensive hand-rubbed version in a satin finish, and now I have 3 hours to kill before I can finish sand and apply a second coat.  3rd coat tonight.  24 hours to dry.  Then rubbed down and waxed. 
           
          Has to be a done deal before Claudia gets back . . . all the guys are no doubt familiar with the old maxim:  "Easier to get forgiveness than to get permission."
           
          So far, looks like it might work, but the fumes in the kitchen are overwhelming, and I'm afraid to turn on the stove for fear of having the north side of the house explode.
           
          And that's it . . . any one else doing anything interesting this weekend?
           
          mz
           
          PS:  Yes, that is my wife's collection of oddly colored and inexplicable everyday tableware in the background.  No, I don't know why she collects that stuff . . . probably to get back at me, and to preempt the counter space for fear that my lenses will once again occupy that space. 
           



          =
        • Fred Friedman
          Ah, but keep your eye to the sky for the next Eclipse. Perhaps there will be a Shew Fly Pie on the table next. Oh yes, has anyone photos of the Featherweight
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Ah, but keep your eye to the sky for the next Eclipse. Perhaps there will be a Shew Fly Pie on the table next. Oh yes, has anyone photos of the Featherweight Shew? I'd like to see precisely what the camera looks like.
            Fred
            On Nov 20, 2008, at 12:58 PM, Milan Zahorcak wrote:


             
            With proper daily care, I'm almost certain that there is little danger of any further Xit outbreaks . . .
             
            mz
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of JCR Cameras
            Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:37 AM
            To: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update


            Hi Milan,

            The table top finish looks great. Thanks for the modus operandi.

            But is the surface camera proof, especially to Xits? Ralph and Rob will need to know for future reference.

            Best Wishes,

            John

            From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
            Sent: 20 November 2008 17:28
            To: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

            . . . and because I know that a number of you are dying to find out how my refinished kitchen table came out, this update to my posting of three ago.

            After 3 months of continuous use, I am astounded how much better this finish is than the previous one.  The product is Minwax Wipe-On Poly in a clear satin finish.  Very easy to use.  Levels beautifully (I thinned it to 50% with mineral spirits and applied several more coats).  Incredibly tough, hard and resistant to everything.  And best of all, the newspaper leaves no newsprint ink stains at all!

            <image001.png>

            I have no idea what the chemistry is between newsprint and table finish, but apparently some finishes are far more susceptible to ink transfer than others.  The Wipe-on Poly seems to be almost completely immune.  I'm very pleased.

            And! I'm almost certain this is the finish that Rob used on his teeny Xit . . . just to irk him (or Ralph) into responding.

            Exciting stuff, eh?  OK, that's it . . . back to cameras, etc.

            mz 

            -----Original Message-----
            From: woodandbrass@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:woodandbras s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Milan Zahorcak
            Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:47 AM
            To: Wood & Brass
            Subject: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst

            Greetings and grumbles:

            A bit off-topic, but it does involve wood and chrome-plated something.

            This is what Americans do before breakfast on Saturday when their wives are out of town for the Labor Day Weekend . . . refinish the kitchen table.  It may not be obvious, but it is wet.

            We've had this table longer than we've been married . . . an odd and difficult story that my wife hates my telling in public.  Let's just say that 35 years ago the table was a commissioned piece and it was ready before we were.

            It's 2.5" thick rock maple butcher block and weighs just over 300 lbs.  For the first 30 years, it was raw wood, routinely cleaned and treated with food grade mineral oil.  Periodically it would have to be cleaned down to bare wood and the process started over.  It looked good the afternoon that it was cleaned, but with use - as a kitchen table - it quickly came to look like it was being used as a butcher's block.  Especially since it also served as my work surface for everything that I did.  My wife hated that as well.

            At any rate, bare wood with an oil finish.  

            Several years ago, American newspapers switched to a soy-based ink that never really dried. And since we get a newspaper delivered everyday (at about 5 AM), by the end of breakfast, both the reader and the table were covered with newsprint, and in some cases, a truly marvelous transfer of entire ads from the newspaper to the table top where the readers elbow pressed down.

            For all practical purposes the table had to be cleaned daily and the wood - and the reader - hated it.

            Now for decades, I puzzled over why I was using food grade mineral oil since no one ever cut or chopped food on the table and it was a pain to clean.  Why not just finish it?  But there was no arguing with tradition . . . until the soy ink newspapers started arriving a few years back.

            Well, a few years ago, the kids finally left the house, perhaps not quite for good, but at least for long stretches at a time, and one weekend, I cleaned the table down to bare wood, and finished it for the first time.  Danish oil, I think.  That was good for about a year, and I hated it.  Then I tried Tung oil . . . hated it.  Then I tried . . . something else that I hated.

            OK, it's a kitchen table.  I have every kind of shellac ever made and most lacquers (used to do cameras and still do lenses, remember), but neither of those products can stand up to the wear of a kitchen table . . . but I hated the thought of polyurethane.

            But polyurethane does have the advantage of being tough as nails, can resist water and vodka spills . . . what? there are lots of perfectly good reasons why 100 proof vodka might occasionally be spilled on a kitchen table . . . makes for a great solvent for old shellac for instance . . .

            At any rate, this is it.  Cleaned and sanded the table last night.  Put on a spit-coat of wipe-on poly . . . also known as a sealer or sanding coat:  50% mineral spirits, 50% poly.  First coat, of slightly diluted poly went on a few minutes ago - I'm doing the labor intensive hand-rubbed version in a satin finish, and now I have 3 hours to kill before I can finish sand and apply a second coat.  3rd coat tonight.  24 hours to dry.  Then rubbed down and waxed. 

            Has to be a done deal before Claudia gets back . . . all the guys are no doubt familiar with the old maxim:  "Easier to get forgiveness than to get permission."

            So far, looks like it might work, but the fumes in the kitchen are overwhelming, and I'm afraid to turn on the stove for fear of having the north side of the house explode.

            And that's it . . . any one else doing anything interesting this weekend?

            mz

            PS:  Yes, that is my wife's collection of oddly colored and inexplicable everyday tableware in the background.  No, I don't know why she collects that stuff . . . probably to get back at me, and to preempt the counter space for fear that my lenses will once again occupy that space. 

            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
            Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.8/1801 - Release Date: 11/20/2008 9:11 AM




            =
          • Rob Niederman
            Hi Fred, Below is an image of a Shew Featherweight from a 1999 Christie s auction (Lot 517). It s featherweight because the hardware is aluminum. Nice
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
            • 0 Attachment

              Hi Fred,

               

              Below is an image of a Shew Featherweight from a 1999 Christie’s auction (Lot 517). It’s “featherweight” because the hardware is aluminum. Nice looking camera and I considered bidding on it at the time. The auction catalogue notes that the camera was subject to British patent 24647.

               

              - Rob

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Friedman
              Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:35 PM
              To: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update

               

              Ah, but keep your eye to the sky for the next Eclipse. Perhaps there will be a Shew Fly Pie on the table next. Oh yes, has anyone photos of the Featherweight Shew? I'd like to see precisely what the camera looks like.

              Fred

               

            • Milan Zahorcak
              Fred, Featherweight Xit ??? If we re thinking of the same thing, I think Shew called it the Featherweight Camera - maybe not in the Xit family? You can buy
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 20, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Message

                Fred,

                Featherweight Xit ???  If we're thinking of the same thing, I think Shew called it the "Featherweight Camera" - maybe not in the Xit family?  You can buy the manual here:

                http://www.oldtimercameras.com/manuals/Shew-Co-Featherweight-Camera-camera-manual-15347.asp

                And to add to Rob's Christie's image . . . here's an ad . . . looks slightly different, but they allude to the use of aluminum as well.
                 
                mz






                -----Original Message-----
                From: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Friedman
                Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:35 AM
                To: woodandbrass@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [woodandbrass] Wood & Chrome angst update


                Oh yes, has anyone photos of the Featherweight Shew? I'd like to see precisely what the camera looks like.

                Fred

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