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Re: [wmlprogramming] Re: no-transform and the role of W3C

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  • passani@eunet.no
    ... you don t. You let the application fail and let the operator take the wrap for it. The mobile web is hard enough as a platform. When we go out of our way
    Message 1 of 119 , Dec 12, 2008
      > how do you mark it as not-to-be-transcoded?

      you don't. You let the application fail and let the operator take the wrap
      for it.
      The mobile web is hard enough as a platform. When we go out of our way to
      fix problems others have caused, we are implicitly sending the message
      that everyone can do what they want because they won't be accountable for
      it. This has to end. Those who break adopted standards must be called
      their names (assholes and fuckers, for example) and be publicly pointed at
      as such on blogs and other public forums.

      Luca


      > OK, aside from are legal approaches (which, until there's a test case,
      > we can't rely on given conflicting views of legality here); and
      > presuming the transcoding industry doesn't spontaneously shut itself
      > down rather than risk accidentally transcoding AJAX content ... what
      > are our options?
      >
      > If you can't distinguish AJAX from regular web traffic, how do you
      > mark it as not-to-be-transcoded (err aside from using the standard
      > mechanism which has always been in HTTP to do this kinda thing of
      > course)?
      >
      > On 12 Dec 2008, at 18:34, Luca Passani wrote:
      >
      >> transcoding is an illegitimate activity. So, the right thing to do is
      >> "do nothing". If transcoders break your app and constitute a large
      >> enough part of your accesses, take whoever is running the transcoder
      >> to
      >> court.
      >
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    • Tom Hume
      ... I m not sure about that. I mean, if it can be configured badly (as this stuff can be - was it MS Live which uses InfoGin but recently started transcoding
      Message 119 of 119 , Dec 16, 2008
        On 16 Dec 2008, at 12:52, Jose Alberto Fernandez wrote:
        > minify. The idea is wonderful but it must be controlled at the source,
        > where they may have a QA team that can check that nothing gets
        > broken. And not at some proxy somewhere around the world that can
        > care less whether the result is good or a complete disaster.
        >
        I'm not sure about that. I mean, if it can be configured badly (as
        this stuff can be - was it MS Live which uses InfoGin but recently
        started transcoding over-aggressively?) then responsibility could lie
        at the deployment. That seems to be where we're going with regular
        transcoders.
        > Now let's get back to the issue of how to classify transformations.
        > Here is my take:
        > 1) lossless: you can bet back exactly what you had originally, e.g.
        > compression.
        > 2) reduce precision: you get something similar but not exactly the
        > same, e.g. converting from one media-type to another with better
        > compression but loosing accuracy: TIFF --> JPEG, 16bit --> 8bit color
        > space, etc.
        > 3) Syntactically equivalent: removing meaningless data. E.g. removing
        > comments from a source file, removing meaningless spacing from an XML
        > file, etc.
        > 4) Semantically equivalent: rewriting the data or code to do exactly
        > the same but in a more optimal fashion or less code. E.g. optimizers,
        > obfuscators, etc.
        > 5) Semantically different: rewriting the data or code to do something
        > similar but not exactly the same.
        >
        If we're going to break them down, there might be a few other classes:

        Proxies that, say, strip viruses out (seems useful, but is it type 4
        or 5?):
        http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.squid.devel/4048/

        ...or block access to certain content:
        http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.squid.devel/4197/

        There's a good link with lots of info on using squid for content
        adaptation here:
        http://wiki.squid-cache.org/SquidFaq/ContentAdaptation#head-5590734c7807ff65ac27befa87f0887a978e3189
        > Well here they are. Opinions? Different categorizations?
        >
        To me, with HTTP as it is today, I don't find it helpful to
        distinguish these kinds of transcoding. I can see examples where each
        is useful, and examples where they're unwanted. I personally struggle
        to see general rules under which any of these activities can be
        considered always OK or always wrong.
        > BTW, apart from maybe hardware level compression, the no-transform
        > header disables everything. Whether we want it or not.
        >
        Yep, there's work to be done here I think - helping define how we can
        selectively apply transformations in future.

        --
        Future Platforms Ltd
        e: Tom.Hume@...
        t: +44 (0) 1273 819038
        m: +44 (0) 7971 781422
        company: www.futureplatforms.com
        personal: tomhume.org
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