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RE: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI

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  • Ray Bill (Products O2)
    ...but there is generally a one-to-one mapping, which is good enough for most things. Bill. ... http://www.thewirelessfaq.com Visit
    Message 1 of 18 , May 6 3:35 AM
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      ...but there is generally a one-to-one mapping, which is good enough for
      most things.

      Bill.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Stuart Barlow [mailto:sbarlow@...]
      > Sent: 06 May 2003 11:34
      > To: wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
      >
      >
      > Is it not the IMSI that's used to identify the customer? IMEI
      > is for the
      > equipment...
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Ray Bill (Products O2)" <bill.ray@...>
      > To: <wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 11:05 AM
      > Subject: RE: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
      >
      >
      > > Speaking as a carrier...
      > >
      > > We do keep accurate records of which customer has which
      > IMEI, we know the
      > > IMEI which is connected long before we find out the User-Agent.
      > >
      > > However, you are right that this is for identifing the
      > customer, not the
      > > type of device, so I don't see a great value of this in the WURFL.
      > >
      > > Bill.
      > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Tom Hume [mailto:tom@...]
      > > > Sent: 06 May 2003 07:59
      > > > To: wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com; wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I can't off-hand think of a situation where third party
      > > > developers would
      > > > want to optimise a service for phones which they know the
      > > > IMEI of, but not
      > > > the User-Agent string.
      > > >
      > > > This might be something useful for carriers (say, preparing
      > > > content for
      > > > delivery by MMS), but do carriers keep realistic records of
      > > > IMEI numbers?
      > > > And why would they need changes to the WURFL to do this -
      > > > would they not be
      > > > combining it internally with (private) customer databases?
      > > >
      > > > At 00:20 06/05/2003 +0200, luca passani wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about
      > > > the actual device.
      > > > >It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a
      > Sharp GX 10.
      > > > >My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to
      > > > query the WURFL
      > > > >and return the actual device.
      > > > >The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to
      > > > IMEI info for
      > > > >devices
      > > > >on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the
      > capabilities and
      > > > >optimize
      > > > >a certain service for certain devices even when there is no
      > > > previous (nor
      > > > >current) WAP connection going on.
      > > > >
      > > > >in practice:
      > > > >
      > > > >function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
      > > > >
      > > > >function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
      > > > >function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value
      > > > (which we have
      > > > >today too)
      > > > >
      > > > >As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear
      > > > the opinion
      > > > >of this forum about the whole thing
      > > > >
      > > > >thank you
      > > > >
      > > > >luca
      > > > >
      > > > >Tom Hume wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >Luca
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by
      > > > examining an IMEI
      > > > > >number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone
      > > > handset (i.e.
      > > > > >without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained
      > > > by a manufacturer
      > > > > >which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the
      > IMEI in their
      > > > > >user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
      > > > > >
      > > > > >If this scheme is reliant on new practices being
      > > > implemented for handset
      > > > > >browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using
      > > > the User-Agent
      > > > > string?
      > > > > >
      > > > > >I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're
      > suggesting.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Tom
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >>Guys, here is a question for you.
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a
      > > > certain device.
      > > > > >>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI
      > > > information in the WURFL
      > > > > >>and let operators figure out the capabilities of
      > phones that have
      > > > > >>never accessed their WAP site.
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>3 questions for you:
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Do you agree with this?
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Will this work?
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Is this useful?
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>thank you
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>luca
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      > > > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming
      > for archive and
      > > > > >>subscription options
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>---
      > > > > >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
      > > > > >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
      > > > > >>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release
      > Date: 18/04/2003
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >
      > > > > >--
      > > > > >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
      > > > > >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
      > > > tom@...
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      > > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
      > > > >
      > > > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for
      > archive and
      > > > subscription options
      > > > >
      > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
      > > >
      > > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
      > > >subscription options
      > > >
      > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >---
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      > >
      > > --
      > > Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
      > > t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
      > tom@...
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
      > >
      > > Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
      > > subscription options
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > > Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
      > >
      > > Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
      > subscription options
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      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
      http://www.thewirelessfaq.com

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    • Ray Bill (Products O2)
      ... You are right about that, and it s something we re working on. ... We hate them. It s terribly annoying and we wish they would let us know. We should pick
      Message 2 of 18 , May 6 3:37 AM
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        > Do you know whether all carriers do this? I understood that
        > one of the
        > problems implementing MMS was that this data wasn't available
        > (or reliable
        > and complete, where it was available) - though I may be mistaken here?

        You are right about that, and it's something we're working on.

        > How do you cope with customers who buy "SIM free" handsets
        > and upgrade
        > without telling you?

        We hate them. It's terribly annoying and we wish they would let us know.
        We should pick it up when they use our WAP gateway or anything like that,
        but we don't (right now).

        > Or do you accept that this will be a
        > tiny percentage
        > of your subscribers and consider it acceptable error?

        More than a tiny percentage, but something we just have to live with for the
        moment. We are working on details with this, so hopefully it won't be a
        long-term thing.

        Bill.

        >
        > Tom
        >
        > At 11:05 06/05/2003 +0100, Ray Bill (Products O2) wrote:
        >
        > >Speaking as a carrier...
        > >
        > >We do keep accurate records of which customer has which
        > IMEI, we know the
        > >IMEI which is connected long before we find out the User-Agent.
        > >
        > >However, you are right that this is for identifing the
        > customer, not the
        > >type of device, so I don't see a great value of this in the WURFL.
        > >
        > >Bill.
        > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Tom Hume [mailto:tom@...]
        > > > Sent: 06 May 2003 07:59
        > > > To: wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com; wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I can't off-hand think of a situation where third party
        > > > developers would
        > > > want to optimise a service for phones which they know the
        > > > IMEI of, but not
        > > > the User-Agent string.
        > > >
        > > > This might be something useful for carriers (say, preparing
        > > > content for
        > > > delivery by MMS), but do carriers keep realistic records of
        > > > IMEI numbers?
        > > > And why would they need changes to the WURFL to do this -
        > > > would they not be
        > > > combining it internally with (private) customer databases?
        > > >
        > > > At 00:20 06/05/2003 +0200, luca passani wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about
        > > > the actual device.
        > > > >It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a
        > Sharp GX 10.
        > > > >My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to
        > > > query the WURFL
        > > > >and return the actual device.
        > > > >The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to
        > > > IMEI info for
        > > > >devices
        > > > >on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the
        > capabilities and
        > > > >optimize
        > > > >a certain service for certain devices even when there is no
        > > > previous (nor
        > > > >current) WAP connection going on.
        > > > >
        > > > >in practice:
        > > > >
        > > > >function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
        > > > >
        > > > >function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
        > > > >function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value
        > > > (which we have
        > > > >today too)
        > > > >
        > > > >As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear
        > > > the opinion
        > > > >of this forum about the whole thing
        > > > >
        > > > >thank you
        > > > >
        > > > >luca
        > > > >
        > > > >Tom Hume wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > >Luca
        > > > > >
        > > > > >Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by
        > > > examining an IMEI
        > > > > >number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone
        > > > handset (i.e.
        > > > > >without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained
        > > > by a manufacturer
        > > > > >which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
        > > > > >
        > > > > >Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the
        > IMEI in their
        > > > > >user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
        > > > > >
        > > > > >If this scheme is reliant on new practices being
        > > > implemented for handset
        > > > > >browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using
        > > > the User-Agent
        > > > > string?
        > > > > >
        > > > > >I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're
        > suggesting.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >Tom
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >>Guys, here is a question for you.
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a
        > > > certain device.
        > > > > >>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI
        > > > information in the WURFL
        > > > > >>and let operators figure out the capabilities of
        > phones that have
        > > > > >>never accessed their WAP site.
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>3 questions for you:
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Do you agree with this?
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Will this work?
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Is this useful?
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>thank you
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>luca
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
        > > > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming
        > for archive and
        > > > > >>subscription options
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>---
        > > > > >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
        > > > > >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > > > > >>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release
        > Date: 18/04/2003
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >>
        > > > > >
        > > > > >--
        > > > > >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
        > > > > >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
        > > > tom@...
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
        > >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
        > > > >
        > > > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for
        > archive and
        > > > subscription options
        > > > >
        > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
        http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
        > >
        > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
        > >subscription options
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >---
        > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
        > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
        >
        >--
        >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
        >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
        >
        >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
        >subscription options
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
        >
        >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
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        >
        >
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        --
        Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
        t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com

        Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
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      • Ed Alkema
        Could someone explain to me how sending sms to an EMEI works. I know it was used by the dutch police to sms bomb cellphones that were stolen. Ed
        Message 3 of 18 , May 6 4:00 AM
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          Could someone explain to me how sending sms to an EMEI works. I know it was
          used by the dutch police to sms bomb cellphones that were stolen.

          Ed
        • luca passani
          Well, this is the point. We want the WURFL to be useful to as many people as possible. If we had IMEI info,carriers may choose to back the project and
          Message 4 of 18 , May 7 8:26 AM
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            Well, this is the point. We want the WURFL to be useful to as many
            people as possible.
            If we had IMEI info,carriers may choose to back the project and
            everybody wins.

            luca

            Tom Hume wrote:

            >I can't off-hand think of a situation where third party developers would
            >want to optimise a service for phones which they know the IMEI of, but not
            >the User-Agent string.
            >
            >This might be something useful for carriers (say, preparing content for
            >delivery by MMS), but do carriers keep realistic records of IMEI numbers?
            >And why would they need changes to the WURFL to do this - would they not be
            >combining it internally with (private) customer databases?
            >
            >At 00:20 06/05/2003 +0200, luca passani wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >> my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about the actual device.
            >>It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a Sharp GX 10.
            >>My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to query the WURFL
            >>and return the actual device.
            >>The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to IMEI info for
            >>devices
            >>on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the capabilities and
            >>optimize
            >>a certain service for certain devices even when there is no previous (nor
            >>current) WAP connection going on.
            >>
            >>in practice:
            >>
            >>function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
            >>
            >>function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
            >>function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value (which we have
            >>today too)
            >>
            >>As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear the opinion
            >>of this forum about the whole thing
            >>
            >>thank you
            >>
            >>luca
            >>
            >>Tom Hume wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>>Luca
            >>>
            >>>Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by examining an IMEI
            >>>number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone handset (i.e.
            >>>without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained by a manufacturer
            >>>which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
            >>>
            >>>Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the IMEI in their
            >>>user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
            >>>
            >>>If this scheme is reliant on new practices being implemented for handset
            >>>browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using the User-Agent
            >>>
            >>>
            >>string?
            >>
            >>
            >>>I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're suggesting.
            >>>
            >>>Tom
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>>Guys, here is a question for you.
            >>>>
            >>>>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a certain device.
            >>>>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI information in the WURFL
            >>>>and let operators figure out the capabilities of phones that have
            >>>>never accessed their WAP site.
            >>>>
            >>>>3 questions for you:
            >>>>
            >>>>Do you agree with this?
            >>>>
            >>>>Will this work?
            >>>>
            >>>>Is this useful?
            >>>>
            >>>>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
            >>>>
            >>>>thank you
            >>>>
            >>>>luca
            >>>>
            >>>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
            >>>>
            >>>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
            >>>>subscription options
            >>>>
            >>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>---
            >>>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
            >>>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
            >>>>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>--
            >>>Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
            >>>t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
            >>>
            >>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
            >>>
            >>>
            >>subscription options
            >>
            >>
            >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
            >>
            >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
            >>subscription options
            >>
            >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>---
            >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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            >>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
            >>
            >>
            >
            >--
            >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
            >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
            >
            >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and subscription options
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • luca passani
            Well, since you can easily get the IMIE by typing *#06# on the phone, we have an effective mean to work the problem around.... this is a nokia 7210 for
            Message 5 of 18 , May 7 8:33 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, since you can easily get the IMIE by typing *#06#
              on the phone, we have an effective mean to work the problem around....

              this is a nokia 7210 for example:

              351114102699331

              anyone who can parse this number?

              thanks

              luca

              Stuart Barlow wrote:

              >This is something I looked into once when working for a mobile operator in
              >Norway. It is a good idea but we gave up on it because we tried to contact
              >vendors to get the ranges that correspond to the different models. Not all
              >were willing to provide this information to us - most wouldn't.
              >
              >That was many years ago so maybe vendors have seen the light and changed
              >their policy on this.
              >
              >Stuart
              >
              >----- Original Message -----
              >From: "luca passani" <passani@...>
              >To: <wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
              >Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:20 PM
              >Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >> my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about the actual
              >>
              >>
              >device.
              >
              >
              >>It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a Sharp GX 10.
              >>My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to query the WURFL
              >>and return the actual device.
              >>The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to IMEI info for
              >>devices
              >>on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the capabilities and
              >>optimize
              >>a certain service for certain devices even when there is no previous (nor
              >>current) WAP connection going on.
              >>
              >>in practice:
              >>
              >>function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
              >>
              >>function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
              >>function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value (which we have
              >>today too)
              >>
              >>As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear the opinion
              >>of this forum about the whole thing
              >>
              >>thank you
              >>
              >>luca
              >>
              >>Tom Hume wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>Luca
              >>>
              >>>Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by examining an
              >>>
              >>>
              >IMEI
              >
              >
              >>>number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone handset (i.e.
              >>>without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained by a
              >>>
              >>>
              >manufacturer
              >
              >
              >>>which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
              >>>
              >>>Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the IMEI in their
              >>>user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
              >>>
              >>>If this scheme is reliant on new practices being implemented for handset
              >>>browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using the User-Agent
              >>>
              >>>
              >string?
              >
              >
              >>>I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're suggesting.
              >>>
              >>>Tom
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>>Guys, here is a question for you.
              >>>>
              >>>>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a certain device.
              >>>>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI information in the
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >WURFL
              >
              >
              >>>>and let operators figure out the capabilities of phones that have
              >>>>never accessed their WAP site.
              >>>>
              >>>>3 questions for you:
              >>>>
              >>>>Do you agree with this?
              >>>>
              >>>>Will this work?
              >>>>
              >>>>Is this useful?
              >>>>
              >>>>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
              >>>>
              >>>>thank you
              >>>>
              >>>>luca
              >>>>
              >>>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
              >
              >
              >>>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
              >>>>subscription options
              >>>>
              >>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>---
              >>>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
              >>>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
              >>>>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
              >>>>
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              >>>>
              >>>--
              >>>Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
              >>>t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
              >>>
              >>>
              >tom@...
              >
              >
              >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
              >>>
              >>>
              >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
              >
              >
              >>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
              >>>
              >>>
              >subscription options
              >
              >
              >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
              >>
              >>
              >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
              >
              >
              >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
              >>
              >>
              >subscription options
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              >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
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            • Andrea Trasatti
              Even if I personally don t see it THAT useful for WURFL, in this case I think it might save the day. Bill, as you stated, you don t know which device a user
              Message 6 of 18 , May 12 6:26 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Even if I personally don't see it THAT useful for WURFL, in this case I think it might
                save the day.
                Bill, as you stated, you don't know which device a user has, if you don't have it in
                your repository already, WURFL might provide a good repository for everyone.
                This would be a vote for IMEI to be added.
                On the other side as many other people noted, MOST of the times the IMEI is not
                available to the developer/application.

                I think that in 90% of the cases IMEI will not be available, but there's still a 10% of
                WURFL-users who might be interested.

                If you, Bill, could provide the IMEI's, then maybe.. ;)

                As Luca noted, the IMEI would not be needed to identify the WAP Browser that is
                browsing your WAP pages, but rather someone else's device, OR, my device while
                I'm browsing the website of my carrier.
                I have three examples on my mind:
                1) I want to send a ringtone/logo/MMS to a friend
                2) I'm on the webpage of my carrier, I give my number/I'm authenticated and want to
                portal to send something to my device.
                3) I call the customer care and they know which device I have

                Once again, this is an information that not many will be able to access, but I have to
                admit that in some cases might be useful.

                Best Regards,
                Andrea
                On 6 May 2003 at 11:37, Ray Bill (Products O2) wrote:

                > > Do you know whether all carriers do this? I understood that
                > > one of the
                > > problems implementing MMS was that this data wasn't available
                > > (or reliable
                > > and complete, where it was available) - though I may be mistaken here?
                >
                > You are right about that, and it's something we're working on.
                >
                > > How do you cope with customers who buy "SIM free" handsets
                > > and upgrade
                > > without telling you?
                >
                > We hate them. It's terribly annoying and we wish they would let us know.
                > We should pick it up when they use our WAP gateway or anything like that,
                > but we don't (right now).
                >
                > > Or do you accept that this will be a
                > > tiny percentage
                > > of your subscribers and consider it acceptable error?
                >
                > More than a tiny percentage, but something we just have to live with for the
                > moment. We are working on details with this, so hopefully it won't be a
                > long-term thing.
                >
                > Bill.
                >
                > >
                > > Tom
                > >
                > > At 11:05 06/05/2003 +0100, Ray Bill (Products O2) wrote:
                > >
                > > >Speaking as a carrier...
                > > >
                > > >We do keep accurate records of which customer has which
                > > IMEI, we know the
                > > >IMEI which is connected long before we find out the User-Agent.
                > > >
                > > >However, you are right that this is for identifing the
                > > customer, not the
                > > >type of device, so I don't see a great value of this in the WURFL.
                > > >
                > > >Bill.
                > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: Tom Hume [mailto:tom@...]
                > > > > Sent: 06 May 2003 07:59
                > > > > To: wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com; wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I can't off-hand think of a situation where third party
                > > > > developers would
                > > > > want to optimise a service for phones which they know the
                > > > > IMEI of, but not
                > > > > the User-Agent string.
                > > > >
                > > > > This might be something useful for carriers (say, preparing
                > > > > content for
                > > > > delivery by MMS), but do carriers keep realistic records of
                > > > > IMEI numbers?
                > > > > And why would they need changes to the WURFL to do this -
                > > > > would they not be
                > > > > combining it internally with (private) customer databases?
                > > > >
                > > > > At 00:20 06/05/2003 +0200, luca passani wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about
                > > > > the actual device.
                > > > > >It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a
                > > Sharp GX 10.
                > > > > >My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to
                > > > > query the WURFL
                > > > > >and return the actual device.
                > > > > >The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to
                > > > > IMEI info for
                > > > > >devices
                > > > > >on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the
                > > capabilities and
                > > > > >optimize
                > > > > >a certain service for certain devices even when there is no
                > > > > previous (nor
                > > > > >current) WAP connection going on.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >in practice:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
                > > > > >
                > > > > >function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
                > > > > >function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value
                > > > > (which we have
                > > > > >today too)
                > > > > >
                > > > > >As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear
                > > > > the opinion
                > > > > >of this forum about the whole thing
                > > > > >
                > > > > >thank you
                > > > > >
                > > > > >luca
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Tom Hume wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >Luca
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by
                > > > > examining an IMEI
                > > > > > >number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone
                > > > > handset (i.e.
                > > > > > >without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained
                > > > > by a manufacturer
                > > > > > >which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the
                > > IMEI in their
                > > > > > >user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >If this scheme is reliant on new practices being
                > > > > implemented for handset
                > > > > > >browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using
                > > > > the User-Agent
                > > > > > string?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're
                > > suggesting.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Tom
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>Guys, here is a question for you.
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a
                > > > > certain device.
                > > > > > >>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI
                > > > > information in the WURFL
                > > > > > >>and let operators figure out the capabilities of
                > > phones that have
                > > > > > >>never accessed their WAP site.
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>3 questions for you:
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Do you agree with this?
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Will this work?
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Is this useful?
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>thank you
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>luca
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                > > > > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming
                > > for archive and
                > > > > > >>subscription options
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>---
                > > > > > >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                > > > > > >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                > > > > > >>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release
                > > Date: 18/04/2003
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >--
                > > > > > >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
                > > > > > >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
                > > > > tom@...
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                > > >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for
                > > archive and
                > > > > subscription options
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                > http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                > > >
                > > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                > > >subscription options
                > > >
                > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >---
                > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                > > >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
                > >
                > >--
                > >Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
                > >t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                > >
                > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                > >subscription options
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                > >
                > >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                > >subscription options
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
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                > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                > >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
                >
                > --
                > Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
                > t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e tom@...
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                >
                > Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                > subscription options
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                ====================
                Andrea Trasatti
                Bware Technologies
                http://www.bware.it
              • philippe bertramo (waex.com)
                Sorry for this off topic question, is there a group discussing the GSM technical infrastructure like IMEI, HLR databases ? Thanks, Philippe
                Message 7 of 18 , May 14 6:41 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry for this off topic question,
                  is there a group discussing the GSM technical infrastructure like
                  IMEI, HLR databases ?
                  Thanks,
                  Philippe
                  -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
                  Philippe. Bertramo@...
                  +352-091 461365
                  http://www.waex.com

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: luca passani [mailto:passani@...]
                  Sent: 07 May 2003 17:34
                  To: wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI



                  Well, since you can easily get the IMIE by typing *#06#
                  on the phone, we have an effective mean to work the problem around....

                  this is a nokia 7210 for example:

                  351114102699331

                  anyone who can parse this number?

                  thanks

                  luca

                  Stuart Barlow wrote:

                  >This is something I looked into once when working for a mobile operator in
                  >Norway. It is a good idea but we gave up on it because we tried to contact
                  >vendors to get the ranges that correspond to the different models. Not all
                  >were willing to provide this information to us - most wouldn't.
                  >
                  >That was many years ago so maybe vendors have seen the light and changed
                  >their policy on this.
                  >
                  >Stuart
                  >
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "luca passani" <passani@...>
                  >To: <wmlprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:20 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [wmlprogramming] WURFl and IMEI
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >> my understanding is that the IMEI tells you a lot about the actual
                  >>
                  >>
                  >device.
                  >
                  >
                  >>It will tell you for example that a certain phone is a Sharp GX 10.
                  >>My idea is that one could use the IMEI (or part of it) to query the WURFL
                  >>and return the actual device.
                  >>The advantage of this is that a carrier (who has access to IMEI info for
                  >>devices
                  >>on their networks) might use the IMEI to look up the capabilities and
                  >>optimize
                  >>a certain service for certain devices even when there is no previous (nor
                  >>current) WAP connection going on.
                  >>
                  >>in practice:
                  >>
                  >>function(IMEI) --> UA String (new function)
                  >>
                  >>function2(UA String) -->deviceID (which we have today)
                  >>function3(DeviceID,Capability Name) -> Capability Value (which we have
                  >>today too)
                  >>
                  >>As I said, this is all theoretical, so I would like to hear the opinion
                  >>of this forum about the whole thing
                  >>
                  >>thank you
                  >>
                  >>luca
                  >>
                  >>Tom Hume wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>Luca
                  >>>
                  >>>Sorry, I don't quite follow this. Are you saying that by examining an
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >IMEI
                  >
                  >
                  >>>number alone, you can tell the make and model of phone handset (i.e.
                  >>>without doing a lookup into some huge database maintained by a
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >manufacturer
                  >
                  >
                  >>>which matches IMEI to individual phones)?
                  >>>
                  >>>Won't we need handset browsers to start supplying the IMEI in their
                  >>>user-agent strings (or similar) for this to work?
                  >>>
                  >>>If this scheme is reliant on new practices being implemented for handset
                  >>>browsers, then what does it buy us over and above using the User-Agent
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >string?
                  >
                  >
                  >>>I have a feeling I don't fully understand what you're suggesting.
                  >>>
                  >>>Tom
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>At 16:42 05/05/2003 +0100, luca passani wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>>Guys, here is a question for you.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>IMEI is public info to identify model and producer of a certain device.
                  >>>>This tells us that we could theoretically add IMEI information in the
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >WURFL
                  >
                  >
                  >>>>and let operators figure out the capabilities of phones that have
                  >>>>never accessed their WAP site.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>3 questions for you:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Do you agree with this?
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Will this work?
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Is this useful?
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Comments, facts and opinions are welcome
                  >>>>
                  >>>>thank you
                  >>>>
                  >>>>luca
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                  >
                  >
                  >>>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                  >>>>subscription options
                  >>>>
                  >>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>---
                  >>>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                  >>>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                  >>>>Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18/04/2003
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>--
                  >>>Future Platforms :: http://www.futureplatforms.com/
                  >>>t +44 (0) 1273 718030 // m +44 (0) 7971 781422 // e
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >tom@...
                  >
                  >
                  >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                  >
                  >
                  >>>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >subscription options
                  >
                  >
                  >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>Please read the FAQ before you ask questions:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                  >
                  >
                  >>Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                  >>
                  >>
                  >subscription options
                  >
                  >
                  >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com
                  >
                  >Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
                  subscription options
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  Please read the FAQ before you ask questions: http://www.thewirelessfaq.com

                  Visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming for archive and
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