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Re: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds

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  • Glenn Gorsuch
    As an addendum...and yes, a lot of this SOUNDS obvious, but as we ve found over the years, no point is so obvious it doesn t need to be made... Fires need to
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
      As an addendum...and yes, a lot of this SOUNDS obvious, but as we've found
      over the years, no point is so obvious it doesn't need to be made...

      Fires need to be attended by someone responsible. If there's a firepit
      going in a camp, and no one's there to watch it, or all you hear are snores
      from a tent, or it's just someone's 6-year old...that fire needs to go out.
      Sure, take the time to make SURE someone hasn't dashed to the privy and
      back, but after a reasonable interval, do what you need to.

      Local conditions can modify these rules--to make them harsher, and almost
      never to relax them. To wit, if there's high winds, and we're all camping
      in tall dry grass...at the call of the CinC...all those fires can go out, no
      matter how high the pit is off the ground. Or...Yes, the site owner may
      have fire rings scattered about, with the plain intent that they be
      used...but we don't use them, except maybe as bases for our own firepits.

      And having two fire-suppression methods is a good idea. A fire extinguisher
      is great, but a near-by bucket of water or sand can save you having to
      replace or refill that extinguisher for just a small spark. If a chunk of
      charcoal hits the grass and it starts to blaze up or even smolder, we'd
      rather have someone act decisively with a convenient bucket of grey-water
      than hesitate to use someone's $25, non-rechargable fire extinguisher.

      Be fire-paranoid. We are OFTEN referred to in other Kingdoms as crazy,
      because we're so...dedicated in our fire-safety. But you know what? We get
      to use fires in places that most groups can't. And the few times we HAVE
      had fire issues (and yes, I can tell stories), it was the West's quick
      action and construtive fire-paranoia that saved the
      day/pavillion/camp/site...

      Gwyn

      On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, sven gotfriedson <sven_gotfriedson@...
      > wrote:

      >
      >
      > As the rules sit now,
      > 1) fire pits need to be off the ground so as not to char the ground under
      > it, (no such thing as an 18in rule) There must be fire suppression (i.e.
      > Water is fine for wood or charcoal fires but fire extinguishers are required
      > for presto, Dura flame or any other pressed paraffin logs.) Please note that
      > the CiC or fire walk constables judgment on if the fire pit is safe is
      > always respected. If you see a fire pit that is obviously defective and a
      > threat to safety, then by all means shut it down. If they give you any flack
      > refer to the CiC or a senior or higher rank constable. Please do not start a
      > fight. It can be resolved in a equitable manner and you don't have to take
      > the heat ( no pun intended) that's our job as Principality or Kingdom Level.
      > Oil tekki torches are still outlawed but obviously the propane (individual
      > or big tank) are fine as long as they are securely mounted and not just
      > stuck in the ground.(side note, there are some smaller groups that like the
      > look of the tekki torches and as long as there is no oil in the reservoirs
      > that's fine. but if they are lit then they will be put out and confiscated
      > until the end of the event.)
      > Fire dancers: this is a very touchy subject. I have allowed dances in the
      > past for entertainment reasons, but with the follow criteria. 1) the dancer
      > can not be drinking alcohol for intoxication reasons. 2) They must
      > demonstrate that they can handle the equipment and that equipment is in good
      > working order. I.E. no broken parts so as to have a fire pot fly off the
      > chain. 3) There must be a responsible person with a fire extinguishers
      > standing by for emergencies.
      > I hope these have answered your question and I encouage other senior
      > constable to give their input on the subject.
      > For further information or questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
      > YIS
      > Sven Gotfriedson
      > Kingdom Constable
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: rivenoakconstable <rivenoakconstable@...<rivenoakconstable%40yahoo.com>
      > >
      > To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com <wkconstabulary%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:41:52 PM
      > Subject: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds
      >
      >
      >
      > I've had a couple people ask me and I don't know. Plus, I have a new
      > firepit and would like to be "legal".
      >
      > J
      >
      > Gregor
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daniel Wagner
      I even said for #3 they had to have their own on site warranted Constable. Being as a number of constables do like to watch the dancing, this wasn t hard to
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
        I even said for #3 they had to have their own on site warranted Constable. Being as a number of constables do like to watch the dancing, this wasn't hard to arrange.
        Wulfy





        ________________________________
        From: sven gotfriedson <sven_gotfriedson@...>
        To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 8:35:57 AM
        Subject: Re: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds


        As the rules sit now,
        1) fire pits need to be off the ground so as not to char the ground under it, (no such thing as an 18in rule) There must be fire suppression (i.e. Water is fine for wood or charcoal fires but fire extinguishers are required for presto, Dura flame or any other pressed paraffin logs.) Please note that the CiC or fire walk constables judgment on if the fire pit is safe is always respected. If you see a fire pit that is obviously defective and a threat to safety, then by all means shut it down. If they give you any flack refer to the CiC or a senior or higher rank constable. Please do not start a fight. It can be resolved in a equitable manner and you don't have to take the heat ( no pun intended) that's our job as Principality or Kingdom Level.
        Oil tekki torches are still outlawed but obviously the propane (individual or big tank) are fine as long as they are securely mounted and not just stuck in the ground.(side note, there are some smaller groups that like the look of the tekki torches and as long as there is no oil in the reservoirs that's fine. but if they are lit then they will be put out and confiscated until the end of the event.)
        Fire dancers: this is a very touchy subject. I have allowed dances in the past for entertainment reasons, but with the follow criteria. 1) the dancer can not be drinking alcohol for intoxication reasons. 2) They must demonstrate that they can handle the equipment and that equipment is in good working order. I.E. no broken parts so as to have a fire pot fly off the chain. 3) There must be a responsible person with a fire extinguishers standing by for emergencies.
        I hope these have answered your question and I encouage other senior constable to give their input on the subject.
        For further information or questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
        YIS
        Sven Gotfriedson
        Kingdom Constable

        ____________ _________ _________ __
        From: rivenoakconstable <rivenoakconstable@ yahoo.com>
        To: wkconstabulary@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:41:52 PM
        Subject: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds


        I've had a couple people ask me and I don't know. Plus, I have a new
        firepit and would like to be "legal".

        J

        Gregor

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Daniel Wagner
        My fave is a fire blanket or even a large wool scrap soaking in a bucket. You can find fire blankets on ebay and they last forever. They are very very good for
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
          My fave is a fire blanket or even a large wool scrap soaking in a bucket. You can find fire blankets on ebay and they last forever. They are very very good for grease or garb fires.
          Wulfy




          ________________________________
          From: Glenn Gorsuch <ggorsuch@...>
          To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 1:28:49 PM
          Subject: Re: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds

          As an addendum...and yes, a lot of this SOUNDS obvious, but as we've found
          over the years, no point is so obvious it doesn't need to be made...

          Fires need to be attended by someone responsible. If there's a firepit
          going in a camp, and no one's there to watch it, or all you hear are snores
          from a tent, or it's just someone's 6-year old...that fire needs to go out.
          Sure, take the time to make SURE someone hasn't dashed to the privy and
          back, but after a reasonable interval, do what you need to.

          Local conditions can modify these rules--to make them harsher, and almost
          never to relax them. To wit, if there's high winds, and we're all camping
          in tall dry grass...at the call of the CinC...all those fires can go out, no
          matter how high the pit is off the ground. Or...Yes, the site owner may
          have fire rings scattered about, with the plain intent that they be
          used...but we don't use them, except maybe as bases for our own firepits.

          And having two fire-suppression methods is a good idea. A fire extinguisher
          is great, but a near-by bucket of water or sand can save you having to
          replace or refill that extinguisher for just a small spark. If a chunk of
          charcoal hits the grass and it starts to blaze up or even smolder, we'd
          rather have someone act decisively with a convenient bucket of grey-water
          than hesitate to use someone's $25, non-rechargable fire extinguisher.

          Be fire-paranoid. We are OFTEN referred to in other Kingdoms as crazy,
          because we're so...dedicated in our fire-safety. But you know what? We get
          to use fires in places that most groups can't. And the few times we HAVE
          had fire issues (and yes, I can tell stories), it was the West's quick
          action and construtive fire-paranoia that saved the
          day/pavillion/camp/site...

          Gwyn

          On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, sven gotfriedson <sven_gotfriedson@...
          > wrote:

          >
          >
          > As the rules sit now,
          > 1) fire pits need to be off the ground so as not to char the ground under
          > it, (no such thing as an 18in rule) There must be fire suppression (i.e.
          > Water is fine for wood or charcoal fires but fire extinguishers are required
          > for presto, Dura flame or any other pressed paraffin logs.) Please note that
          > the CiC or fire walk constables judgment on if the fire pit is safe is
          > always respected. If you see a fire pit that is obviously defective and a
          > threat to safety, then by all means shut it down. If they give you any flack
          > refer to the CiC or a senior or higher rank constable. Please do not start a
          > fight. It can be resolved in a equitable manner and you don't have to take
          > the heat ( no pun intended) that's our job as Principality or Kingdom Level.
          > Oil tekki torches are still outlawed but obviously the propane (individual
          > or big tank) are fine as long as they are securely mounted and not just
          > stuck in the ground.(side note, there are some smaller groups that like the
          > look of the tekki torches and as long as there is no oil in the reservoirs
          > that's fine. but if they are lit then they will be put out and confiscated
          > until the end of the event.)
          > Fire dancers: this is a very touchy subject. I have allowed dances in the
          > past for entertainment reasons, but with the follow criteria. 1) the dancer
          > can not be drinking alcohol for intoxication reasons. 2) They must
          > demonstrate that they can handle the equipment and that equipment is in good
          > working order. I.E. no broken parts so as to have a fire pot fly off the
          > chain. 3) There must be a responsible person with a fire extinguishers
          > standing by for emergencies.
          > I hope these have answered your question and I encouage other senior
          > constable to give their input on the subject.
          > For further information or questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
          > YIS
          > Sven Gotfriedson
          > Kingdom Constable
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: rivenoakconstable <rivenoakconstable@...<rivenoakconstable%40yahoo.com>
          > >
          > To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com <wkconstabulary%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:41:52 PM
          > Subject: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds
          >
          >
          >
          > I've had a couple people ask me and I don't know. Plus, I have a new
          > firepit and would like to be "legal".
          >
          > J
          >
          > Gregor
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wkconstabulary

          Yahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sven gotfriedson
          thank you your Excelency, well said.  Sven ________________________________ From: Glenn Gorsuch To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
            thank you your Excelency, well said. 
            Sven



            ________________________________
            From: Glenn Gorsuch <ggorsuch@...>
            To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 1:28:49 PM
            Subject: Re: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds

            As an addendum...and yes, a lot of this SOUNDS obvious, but as we've found
            over the years, no point is so obvious it doesn't need to be made...

            Fires need to be attended by someone responsible.  If there's a firepit
            going in a camp, and no one's there to watch it, or all you hear are snores
            from a tent, or it's just someone's 6-year old...that fire needs to go out.
            Sure, take the time to make SURE someone hasn't dashed to the privy and
            back, but after a reasonable interval, do what you need to.

            Local conditions can modify these rules--to make them harsher, and almost
            never to relax them.  To wit, if there's high winds, and we're all camping
            in tall dry grass...at the call of the CinC...all those fires can go out, no
            matter how high the pit is off the ground.  Or...Yes, the site owner may
            have fire rings scattered about, with the plain intent that they be
            used...but we don't use them, except maybe as bases for our own firepits.

            And having two fire-suppression methods is a good idea.  A fire extinguisher
            is great, but a near-by bucket of water or sand can save you having to
            replace or refill that extinguisher for just a small spark.  If a chunk of
            charcoal hits the grass and it starts to blaze up or even smolder, we'd
            rather have someone act decisively with a convenient bucket of grey-water
            than hesitate to use someone's $25, non-rechargable fire extinguisher.

            Be fire-paranoid.  We are OFTEN referred to in other Kingdoms as crazy,
            because we're so...dedicated in our fire-safety.  But you know what?  We get
            to use fires in places that most groups can't.  And the few times we HAVE
            had fire issues (and yes, I can tell stories), it was the West's quick
            action and construtive fire-paranoia that saved the
            day/pavillion/camp/site...

            Gwyn

            On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, sven gotfriedson <sven_gotfriedson@...
            > wrote:

            >
            >
            > As the rules sit now,
            > 1) fire pits need to be off the ground so as not to char the ground under
            > it, (no such thing as an 18in rule) There must be fire suppression (i.e.
            > Water is fine for wood or charcoal fires but fire extinguishers are required
            > for presto, Dura flame or any other pressed paraffin logs.) Please note that
            > the CiC or fire walk constables judgment on if the fire pit is safe is
            > always respected. If you see a fire pit that is obviously defective and a
            > threat to safety, then by all means shut it down. If they give you any flack
            > refer to the CiC or a senior or higher rank constable. Please do not start a
            > fight.  It can be resolved in a equitable manner and you don't have to take
            > the heat ( no pun intended) that's our job as Principality or Kingdom Level.
            > Oil tekki torches are still outlawed but obviously the propane (individual
            > or big tank) are fine as long as they are securely mounted and not just
            > stuck in the ground.(side note, there are some smaller groups that like the
            > look of the tekki torches and as long as there is no oil in the reservoirs
            > that's fine. but if they are lit then they will be put out and confiscated
            > until the end of the event.)
            > Fire dancers: this is a very touchy subject.  I have allowed dances in the
            > past for entertainment reasons, but with the follow criteria. 1) the dancer
            > can not be drinking alcohol for intoxication reasons. 2) They must
            > demonstrate that they can handle the equipment and that equipment is in good
            > working order. I.E. no broken parts so as to have a fire pot fly off the
            > chain. 3) There must be a responsible person with a fire extinguishers
            > standing by for emergencies.
            > I hope these have answered your question and I encouage other senior
            > constable to give their input on the subject.
            > For further information or questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
            > YIS
            > Sven Gotfriedson
            > Kingdom Constable
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: rivenoakconstable <rivenoakconstable@...<rivenoakconstable%40yahoo.com>
            > >
            > To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com <wkconstabulary%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 2:41:52 PM
            > Subject: [West Constables] Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds
            >
            >
            >
            > I've had a couple people ask me and I don't know. Plus, I have a new
            > firepit and would like to be "legal".
            >
            > J
            >
            > Gregor
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wkconstabulary

            Yahoo! Groups Links






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John LaTorre
            ... One small clarification here. In some places, there is an 18 inch rule but it s not our rule. Rancho Seco required a height of 18 off the ground, and I
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
              Sven wrote:
              > no such thing as an 18in rule

              One small clarification here. In some places, there is an "18 inch rule"
              but it's not our rule. Rancho Seco required a height of 18" off the
              ground, and I think that there was at least one other place as well (not
              enough coffee to access the secondary memory banks). Can anybody
              refresh my memory on this?

              --Johann von Drachenfels
            • greg Williams
              I believe I remember reading on SCA-West a month or so back that Flieg commented that there is not now, nor ever was, a minimum height requirement in the
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
                I believe I remember reading on SCA-West a month or so back that Flieg
                commented that "there is not now, nor ever was, a minimum height requirement
                in the Kingdom". I've always know it to be site specific hence the question
                regarding Woodland specifically. Thanks to everybody responding and
                catching me up on the current rules and practices.

                Gregor


                On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:24 AM, John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Sven wrote:
                > > no such thing as an 18in rule
                >
                > One small clarification here. In some places, there is an "18 inch rule"
                > but it's not our rule. Rancho Seco required a height of 18" off the
                > ground, and I think that there was at least one other place as well (not
                > enough coffee to access the secondary memory banks). Can anybody
                > refresh my memory on this?
                >
                > --Johann von Drachenfels
                >
                >
                >



                --
                When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered
                Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...

                Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos

                The Dreaded Blog - http://parrottude.blogspot.com/

                SCA Photo Pages -
                http://amberandgregsscaphotos.shutterfly.com/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Glenn Gorsuch
                And the mention of Fleig reminds me... (doing a Fleig-ish beard-rub, except mine isn t long enough). One site (and it may well have been Rancho Seco, or maybe
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
                  And the mention of Fleig reminds me... (doing a Fleig-ish beard-rub, except
                  mine isn't long enough). One site (and it may well have been Rancho Seco,
                  or maybe down in the Scented Lands near the minimum security prison) told us
                  on one occasion, instead of a specific height above ground, that they wanted
                  some extra radiant heat-shielding between the firepits and their lush green
                  turf. Most folks made do with just a square of plywood or some such on the
                  ground beneath their 'pits...but when one person didn't have such, I believe
                  it was Fleig who proposed that they take their spare (square) grill, wrap it
                  a few times around with aluminum foil, and use that as a shield. Works a
                  treat, and has the added bonus of being QUITE fire resistant, and reflects
                  any errant heat back up, where it can do some good.

                  While again, this isn't a KINGDOM rule, it's still not a bad practice,
                  especially as most Regulus-style collapsable firepits DO leak ash. it's
                  also a nice way to make sure that any tall weed-type things are kept out of
                  the potential ignition zone, without doing yard-work.

                  It's sort of ironic, because of all the many marvelous and varied things
                  Fleig keeps in that van of his (up to and including a toilet plunger),
                  aluminum foil isn't one of them.

                  Gwyn

                  On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:57 PM, greg Williams <greg95111@...> wrote:

                  > I believe I remember reading on SCA-West a month or so back that Flieg
                  > commented that "there is not now, nor ever was, a minimum height
                  > requirement
                  > in the Kingdom". I've always know it to be site specific hence the
                  > question
                  > regarding Woodland specifically. Thanks to everybody responding and
                  > catching me up on the current rules and practices.
                  >
                  > Gregor
                  >
                  >
                  > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:24 AM, John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Sven wrote:
                  > > > no such thing as an 18in rule
                  > >
                  > > One small clarification here. In some places, there is an "18 inch rule"
                  > > but it's not our rule. Rancho Seco required a height of 18" off the
                  > > ground, and I think that there was at least one other place as well (not
                  > > enough coffee to access the secondary memory banks). Can anybody
                  > > refresh my memory on this?
                  > >
                  > > --Johann von Drachenfels
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered
                  > Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...
                  >
                  > Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
                  >
                  > The Dreaded Blog - http://parrottude.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > SCA Photo Pages -
                  > http://amberandgregsscaphotos.shutterfly.com/
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wkconstabulary
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Daniel Wagner
                  Yes, that was the rule at a couple of events, and it s a good general rule. No matter any height REQUIREMENT, not burning the grass is just plain good manners.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 2, 2010
                    Yes, that was the rule at a couple of events, and it's a good general rule. No matter any height REQUIREMENT, not burning the grass is just plain good manners.
                    Wulfy





                    ________________________________
                    From: Glenn Gorsuch <ggorsuch@...>
                    To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 2:35:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [West Constables] Re: Fire Rules for Woodland Fairgrounds


                    And the mention of Fleig reminds me... (doing a Fleig-ish beard-rub, except
                    mine isn't long enough). One site (and it may well have been Rancho Seco,
                    or maybe down in the Scented Lands near the minimum security prison) told us
                    on one occasion, instead of a specific height above ground, that they wanted
                    some extra radiant heat-shielding between the firepits and their lush green
                    turf. Most folks made do with just a square of plywood or some such on the
                    ground beneath their 'pits...but when one person didn't have such, I believe
                    it was Fleig who proposed that they take their spare (square) grill, wrap it
                    a few times around with aluminum foil, and use that as a shield. Works a
                    treat, and has the added bonus of being QUITE fire resistant, and reflects
                    any errant heat back up, where it can do some good.

                    While again, this isn't a KINGDOM rule, it's still not a bad practice,
                    especially as most Regulus-style collapsable firepits DO leak ash. it's
                    also a nice way to make sure that any tall weed-type things are kept out of
                    the potential ignition zone, without doing yard-work.

                    It's sort of ironic, because of all the many marvelous and varied things
                    Fleig keeps in that van of his (up to and including a toilet plunger),
                    aluminum foil isn't one of them.

                    Gwyn

                    On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:57 PM, greg Williams <greg95111@gmail. com> wrote:

                    > I believe I remember reading on SCA-West a month or so back that Flieg
                    > commented that "there is not now, nor ever was, a minimum height
                    > requirement
                    > in the Kingdom". I've always know it to be site specific hence the
                    > question
                    > regarding Woodland specifically. Thanks to everybody responding and
                    > catching me up on the current rules and practices.
                    >
                    > Gregor
                    >
                    >
                    > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:24 AM, John LaTorre <jlatorre@midtown. net> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Sven wrote:
                    > > > no such thing as an 18in rule
                    > >
                    > > One small clarification here. In some places, there is an "18 inch rule"
                    > > but it's not our rule. Rancho Seco required a height of 18" off the
                    > > ground, and I think that there was at least one other place as well (not
                    > > enough coffee to access the secondary memory banks). Can anybody
                    > > refresh my memory on this?
                    > >
                    > > --Johann von Drachenfels
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered
                    > Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...
                    >
                    > Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
                    >
                    > The Dreaded Blog - http://parrottude. blogspot. com/
                    >
                    > SCA Photo Pages -
                    > http://amberandgreg sscaphotos. shutterfly. com/
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > or go to http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/wkconstabu lary
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

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