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Re: [West Constables] Re: To cash box or not to Cash box...?

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  • Glenn Gorsuch
    I m of several minds about this little Cashbox policy, as I ve made clear to a number of people. So, here s my rant and thoughts. First, having to be
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
      I'm of several minds about this little Cashbox policy, as I've made clear to
      a number of people. So, here's my rant and thoughts.

      First, "having" to be specially Exchequer warranted to handle the cashbox?
      Pfaugh. You can't convince me that all of the dozens and dozens of people
      who handle money at big events (like Estrella, Gulf Wars, and the like) are
      all cashbox warranted by some mystical process. Sorry, ain't buying it. If
      they don't do it there(where they handle WAY more money in 24 hours than we
      might in a season of kingdom events), why should we?

      Secondly, saving the Gate, we're not a very visual office. Most of the
      time, we don't set up with the other officers, we do our non-Gate work at
      night, in the dark, and, saving the Gate, people don't think of us at all.
      Which is fine, it makes doing that other part of the job easier. We're not
      going to GET any new blood without being in people's eye. There are also
      two "tracks" of Constables...ones at large, and ones that come from being
      the Constable at local groups. The only ones we can easily track are the
      ones in the groups..and if they can't handle a cashbox, why should a group
      HAVE a constable? Local events, by and large, don't have much need for
      security...but it's still a good place for a rookie to learn things, like I
      did.

      Third, we're an office that came into being specificially to preserve a
      skill set that too few autocrats, exchequers, and seneschals have. Lord Joe
      the Autocrat may know where the porta-potties come from, and how to arrange
      for dumpsters, but the odds that he's also a people person with crisis
      management skills and with a large enough staff to manage things like Gate
      and security are vanishingly small. Thus, the Constabulary as a reusable
      pool of people who deal with Foo when it comes down, and know how to deal
      tactfully with looky-loos at the Gate, and have the numbers to be multiple
      places at once. No offense meant to the Exchequers, but they're picked to
      handle money, not people. Seneschals don't generally work on the immediate
      timelines that we do. Having reconciled the Gate after both have run it, I
      can say, honestly, yikes! Our error rate is way lower than theirs. Maybe
      it's because they don't usually do multiple things at once, maybe it's
      because they don't know all the proper procedures, but there it is.

      Ah, but you mentioned something about still having a Constable at the Gate?
      Whyever would you? You simply can't have two bosses running things, and
      from a management perspective, too many people at the Gate usually results
      in less efficiency. Seriously. We tried it with having a Chatelaine at the
      Gate, didn't work then, either. You get lots of little conversations which
      really slows things down. Worse, now you have to have TWICE as many
      specialized volunteers to find for one post as before...with the same
      population.

      Now, I confess, there is a certain evil delight in the notion of foisting
      off the cashbox, sunshade, table, chairs, clipboards, pens, lighting, et
      voluminous cetera off on another Office. I mean, it would certainly give ME
      more room for my stuff in my truck, and give me less to load and unload.
      And indeed, when I took my current office, that WAS the thought that
      occurred to me. But then I thought about it, as above, and decided that
      that was rather unworthy of me. If we had a motto, it might be something
      like "We Do the Job." Because we do. To do less than the Job would be
      letting my Kingdom down. And I'm not willing to do that.

      Further, how do you all feel about "not being trusted" by the Board or
      whomever? I mean, honestly, it's *only* money. We already deal with
      terribly sensitive and delicate situations--things like possible child
      abuse, allegations of rape, assaults, and the disputes between camps, or
      between mundanes and ourselves. But they don't trust us with a few hundred
      dollars in a box? I repeat my earlier pfaugh. I already have had several
      people tell me that if they're not trusted to do cashbox, why should they
      volunteer to help with the rest of it? What happened to Honor and Chivalry
      and stuff like that? You know, the REASON we come dressed in funny clothes
      for these events?

      Thus, my suggestion; If someone has learned enough, been trained enough,
      and has demonstrated the skills enough for me, my Mists counterpart, or our
      Kingdom boss to say "Hey, you're not a trainee constable anymore, you're the
      real deal", why not send the required information straight on to whomever
      keeps track of who can access the cashbox (I believe that would be the
      Exchequer), and be done with it? Can they not believe we're going to check
      our our volunteers to make sure they have the skills to make change, along
      with how to help a drunk back to his tent? Further, you'd think that
      perhaps the Seneschals and Exchequers might favor such a notion--it gives
      THEM A bigger pool to look at when they're looking for sucessors ("Hey, I
      know this person can count money and track sign-ins, maybe they can take
      over for me?")

      Okay, rant over for now.

      Gwyn Chwith ap Llyr
      Cynaguan Constable
      On Jan 17, 2008 8:24 AM, wulfy95113 <wulfstand@...> wrote:

      > <SNIP>


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Larry McCoy
      ... To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks. Couple reasons right off the top of my head. I ve been in the SCA for 30 years. I ve
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
        Daniel Wagner wrote:

        >As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my Seniors to get warrented as a Cash-box Consatble, using the Exchequer form, and mailing me that form, plus your experience, plus a xerox of your membership card & drivers License. Bill? Bethia? Ivan?
        >
        > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer? Of course, we'd still have a Constable at Gate to handle emergencies, parking and etc, and still quite a few of us would warrent themselves as Exchequers to help out. But should the Constabulary abrogate responsibility ofr this task, as in theory we can't do it anyway? Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with out help, rather than the other way around?
        >
        > What does everyone think?
        >
        > Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.
        >
        >
        To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks.

        Couple reasons right off the top of my head.

        I've been in the SCA for 30 years.
        I've worked as a constable on and off for 28.
        (I've been known to put in over 70 hours at Estrella as a constable,
        thats real time hours, not volunteer ticket time hours).
        I've dealt with muggers, drunks, drunks with knives/swords, thieves,
        theft, mundanes with guns, sca people with guns, assaults, etc etc etc
        I've been the exchequer of a local group and the Mists
        I've handed way more than my share of cash boxes at Kingdom level
        events for years.
        I'm a Pelican and a Knight, former EM of my Kingdom.
        And unless you're a recent participant/new to the SCA, (in the last 4
        years), chances are you know me..

        And they need a copy of my membership card? to get rewarranted as an
        Exchequer?? and a copy of my Drivers License???

        Not gonna happen... I don't show anyone my DL unless I get stopped. (and
        I haven't in more than 20 years.

        What I will give them is my membership number. #11799
        And my Drivers license Number... CDL N8390557

        they can take their "requirements " and put 'em where the sun don't
        shine....

        Anluan "the grumpy/very grumpy" Trelaine
        grumble mutter mutter cuss grumble growl mutter

        I know, I know, it's not you guys fault.....
      • Larry McCoy
        Larry McCoy wrote: Ahhh crud... thought I sent that private... Sorry all.. was venting.. already been a bad day here..... ... Trelaine
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
          Larry McCoy wrote:


          Ahhh crud...
          thought I sent that private...

          Sorry all.. was venting.. already been a bad day here.....

          :(


          Trelaine
        • Daniel Wagner
          You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I ll forward
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
            You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I'll forward it. If she/they don't accept it, then on their head be it. ;-)

            I had the same issue with requiring folks to show their ID cards at gate. However, I have no problem at all with the compromise of asking folks to write down their membership ID # on the waiver. So, I'll make the same compromise here. If you have problems with making copies of that info, simply notate the numbers and I'll forward the forms like that.

            Fair?

            Wulfy

            Larry McCoy <trelaine@...> wrote:
            Daniel Wagner wrote:

            >As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my Seniors to get warrented as a Cash-box Consatble, using the Exchequer form, and mailing me that form, plus your experience, plus a xerox of your membership card & drivers License. Bill? Bethia? Ivan?
            >
            > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer? Of course, we'd still have a Constable at Gate to handle emergencies, parking and etc, and still quite a few of us would warrent themselves as Exchequers to help out. But should the Constabulary abrogate responsibility ofr this task, as in theory we can't do it anyway? Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with out help, rather than the other way around?
            >
            > What does everyone think?
            >
            > Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.
            >
            >
            To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks.

            Couple reasons right off the top of my head.

            I've been in the SCA for 30 years.
            I've worked as a constable on and off for 28.
            (I've been known to put in over 70 hours at Estrella as a constable,
            thats real time hours, not volunteer ticket time hours).
            I've dealt with muggers, drunks, drunks with knives/swords, thieves,
            theft, mundanes with guns, sca people with guns, assaults, etc etc etc
            I've been the exchequer of a local group and the Mists
            I've handed way more than my share of cash boxes at Kingdom level
            events for years.
            I'm a Pelican and a Knight, former EM of my Kingdom.
            And unless you're a recent participant/new to the SCA, (in the last 4
            years), chances are you know me..

            And they need a copy of my membership card? to get rewarranted as an
            Exchequer?? and a copy of my Drivers License???

            Not gonna happen... I don't show anyone my DL unless I get stopped. (and
            I haven't in more than 20 years.

            What I will give them is my membership number. #11799
            And my Drivers license Number... CDL N8390557

            they can take their "requirements " and put 'em where the sun don't
            shine....

            Anluan "the grumpy/very grumpy" Trelaine
            grumble mutter mutter cuss grumble growl mutter

            I know, I know, it's not you guys fault.....






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Daniel Wagner
            Certain eeeeviiilll delight . Yes, I like the sound of that. heh, heh, heh. Good feedback. Wulfy (who has been called evil in the past) Glenn
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
              <evil laugh> "Certain eeeeviiilll delight". Yes, I like the sound of that. heh, heh, heh.
              <g>

              Good feedback.

              Wulfy (who has been called evil in the past)

              Glenn Gorsuch ggorsuch@... wrote:
              Now, I confess, there is a certain evil delight in the notion of foisting
              off the cashbox, sunshade, table, chairs, clipboards, pens, lighting, et
              voluminous cetera off on another Office. I mean, it would certainly give ME
              more room for my stuff in my truck, and give me less to load and unload.
              And indeed, when I took my current office, that WAS the thought that
              occurred to me. But then I thought about it, as above, and decided that
              that was rather unworthy of me


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Larry McCoy
              ... Nah.. I ll jump through the hoops like a good trooper... won t neccessarily like it, but I can deal... Trelaine
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
                Daniel Wagner wrote:

                >You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I'll forward it. If she/they don't accept it, then on their head be it. ;-)
                >
                > I had the same issue with requiring folks to show their ID cards at gate. However, I have no problem at all with the compromise of asking folks to write down their membership ID # on the waiver. So, I'll make the same compromise here. If you have problems with making copies of that info, simply notate the numbers and I'll forward the forms like that.
                >
                > Fair?
                >
                > Wulfy
                >
                >
                >
                Nah.. I'll jump through the hoops like a good trooper...
                won't neccessarily like it, but I can deal...

                Trelaine
              • anastacia
                Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the rest of
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
                  Hi all,

                  The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                  Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                  rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                  I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                  Regards,

                  Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                  gate...sorry)
                • Daniel Wagner
                  Even I have to re-roster. ;-) anastacia wrote: Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
                    Even I have to re-roster. ;-)

                    anastacia <anastacia@...> wrote: Hi all,

                    The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                    Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                    rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                    I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                    Regards,

                    Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                    gate...sorry)






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joshua Hitchcock
                    I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box. By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
                      I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box.
                      By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a
                      list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                      I do for my kingdom. I'm willing to spend my time at
                      gate but it would be nice if I didn't have to spend
                      all of my event time working at gate. I will send off
                      my warrant as soon as possible to you Wulfy.

                      Joshua J. Hitchcock
                      or
                      Captain Angus Mc Stagger "Constable of the Mist"

                      And that's the bottom line. Because I frick'n said so!


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                    • Daniel Wagner
                      This is what the Kingdom Exchequer and I spent about an hour discussing at 12th Nite. She agreed in principal, and she agreed that her Office should likely
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
                        This is what the Kingdom Exchequer and I spent about an hour discussing at 12th Nite. She agreed in principal, and she agreed that her Office should likely handle Collegium and 12th Nite, i.e. non-camping events. She is very willing to listen and even compromise to an extent.She agreed to get me a list of Warrented cash-box 'cashiers". We agreed that the warrents are a requirement, due to a dictum from "Above". We discussed my issue here, also.

                        Wulfstan, High Constable.

                        Joshua Hitchcock <mr_hitchcock@...> wrote:
                        I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box.
                        By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a
                        list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                        I do for my kingdom. I'm willing to spend my time at
                        gate but it would be nice if I didn't have to spend
                        all of my event time working at gate. I will send off
                        my warrant as soon as possible to you Wulfy.

                        Joshua J. Hitchcock
                        or
                        Captain Angus Mc Stagger "Constable of the Mist"

                        And that's the bottom line. Because I frick'n said so!

                        __________________________________________________________
                        Be a better friend, newshound, and
                        know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Daniel Wagner
                        Auntie - I d appreciate your roster or your warrent, in any case. Wulfy anastacia wrote: Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
                          "Auntie"- I'd appreciate your roster or your warrent, in any case.

                          Wulfy

                          anastacia <anastacia@...> wrote:
                          Hi all,

                          The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                          Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                          rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                          I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                          Regards,

                          Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                          gate...sorry)






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John LaTorre
                          Greetings to the list! I m responding to this new policy of having a warranted Exchequer handling the cash box at the gate. I ve been holding my peace (read:
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
                            Greetings to the list!

                            I'm responding to this new policy of having a "warranted Exchequer"
                            handling the cash box at the gate. I've been holding my peace (read:
                            biting my tongue) for the past couple of days, but I think it's time to
                            respond to this subject.

                            First, some credentials. I was Kingdom Chacellor of the Exchequer or
                            four years, and Cynaguan Chancellor of the Exchequer for another four
                            years. In that capacity, I participated in the process of creating the
                            Exchequer's Handbook, and I lobbied hard for variances for some of the
                            policies I found particularly cumbersome or odious to the West Kingdom.
                            I was Principality Constable for the Mists for two years, and Deputy
                            Kingdom Constable for two years under Master Balin the Hunter. During
                            that time, I brought the Constable's Handbook into its current form. So
                            if I come across as a person who might actually know something about the
                            subject, please forgive me.

                            I agree with Gwyn and Trelaine here (particularly Trelaine, and I'm glad
                            he mistakenly put his comments on the list). Once again, the Corporate
                            office is addressing a problem that simply doesn't seem to exist, using
                            a solution that won't work.

                            What dismays me the most is that nowhere in any of this discussion has
                            anybody explained to me the reasons for this policy, or the
                            circumstances that dictated it. WHY are we supposed to be doing this?
                            Has some other kingdom experienced a situation where large sums of money
                            are being pocketed by the gate people? Was this situation cleared up
                            when a "warranted Exchequer" was assigned to the gate, and could it be
                            shown that this person's warrant made any difference? Perhaps if
                            Gwenhwyfaer or Wulfie or the Society Chancellor of the Exchequer or our
                            Ombudsman or whoever could give us a very good reason for taking these
                            extra steps, I could sign on to it. But we are, as usual, treated like
                            children who are given Rules For Our Best Interests without any of the
                            reasons for them.

                            When this has happened in the past, the logic behind it was usually one
                            of two things:

                            1. It happened somewhere else at some time on some scale, so it can
                            happen anywhere at any time and on any scale, and we must be prepared
                            for it with measures that may not be effective at all, regardless of how
                            much extra work it means for everybody ("A boy up in Minnesota froze to
                            death yesterday, so go put on a coat, even if we're in San Diego and its
                            seventy-six outside.").

                            2. While we have measures in place to guard against this, such as
                            keeping two people at the gate and doing periodic gate pulls to track
                            the money, one more measure can't hurt ("Wear your belt AND your
                            suspenders.").

                            It has also been pointed out that since there is no Society-level
                            Constable position, the Lord High Constable is responsible only to his
                            Kingdom, his Crown, and his conscience ... and the Board has much less
                            leverage with that than with a position that has a clear chain of
                            command all the way to the top. That's how the Exchequer got involved in
                            the first place. (It's time for another aphorism here: "When the only
                            tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.") Since
                            there was already a requirement for Chancellors of the Exchequer to have
                            a membership card and driver's license (or state ID) on file, it was an
                            easy step to extend those requirements to anybody that handles cash at
                            any time for any reason. Whether is was a logical step remains to be
                            demonstrated. (The reasons that have been advanced are usually that it
                            makes prosecution for embezzlement easier, but I fail to see how, unless
                            it also includeså mandatory background checks for everybody, and God
                            help us if it comes to that.)

                            Wulfie also asked the question:

                            > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer?

                            There's a very good reason for that ... the fact that the money goes
                            through two offices rather than one is one of the controls we have in
                            place for ensuring that there is no hanky-panky. At every gate pull,
                            both the Constable and the Chancellor of the Exchequer count the money
                            and sign off on the transfer slip. We therefore can tell, within a few
                            hours, how much money was collected and by whom, with dual records of
                            those transactions kept by two unaffiliated offices.

                            In conclusion, I think that instead of complying docilely with this
                            edict, we should be objecting in the most strenuous way possible. What
                            do their Majesties think of this? If we go the route of "non serviam"
                            can we count on their support?



                            --Johann von Drachenfels
                          • Daniel Wagner
                            Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
                              Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a rep as a midden-stirrer, I thought it was better to go along and let others make a fuss. So that's WHY.

                              According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better. Of course, I, like you John, am both an Exchequer and a Constable.

                              Gwenhwyfaer should now be on this list, so I hope she'll reply. We have discussed this, and she was open to compromise on every issue but the warrant issue, and that seems to be coming Top Down, not from her. So, it's not just her- let's not blame her.

                              Personally, I never used Warrants and had no problems (well, we lost- then found- a whole page of waivers when I just did A&S, but that was a known oops). But then I was notorious for sitting behind the box for nigh the entire event.

                              The "turning over the cash box" is more or less our Nuke strike in the hole. If the Powers That Be make things too onerous for the Constables, we can hand over the box and just do Fire Watch. Of course, I don't want to do this. I agree that having two Offices keep an eye on the cash is a Good Thing.

                              Wulfy

                              John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote:
                              Greetings to the list!

                              I'm responding to this new policy of having a "warranted Exchequer"
                              handling the cash box at the gate. I've been holding my peace (read:
                              biting my tongue) for the past couple of days, but I think it's time to
                              respond to this subject.

                              First, some credentials. I was Kingdom Chacellor of the Exchequer or
                              four years, and Cynaguan Chancellor of the Exchequer for another four
                              years. In that capacity, I participated in the process of creating the
                              Exchequer's Handbook, and I lobbied hard for variances for some of the
                              policies I found particularly cumbersome or odious to the West Kingdom.
                              I was Principality Constable for the Mists for two years, and Deputy
                              Kingdom Constable for two years under Master Balin the Hunter. During
                              that time, I brought the Constable's Handbook into its current form. So
                              if I come across as a person who might actually know something about the
                              subject, please forgive me.

                              I agree with Gwyn and Trelaine here (particularly Trelaine, and I'm glad
                              he mistakenly put his comments on the list). Once again, the Corporate
                              office is addressing a problem that simply doesn't seem to exist, using
                              a solution that won't work.

                              What dismays me the most is that nowhere in any of this discussion has
                              anybody explained to me the reasons for this policy, or the
                              circumstances that dictated it. WHY are we supposed to be doing this?
                              Has some other kingdom experienced a situation where large sums of money
                              are being pocketed by the gate people? Was this situation cleared up
                              when a "warranted Exchequer" was assigned to the gate, and could it be
                              shown that this person's warrant made any difference? Perhaps if
                              Gwenhwyfaer or Wulfie or the Society Chancellor of the Exchequer or our
                              Ombudsman or whoever could give us a very good reason for taking these
                              extra steps, I could sign on to it. But we are, as usual, treated like
                              children who are given Rules For Our Best Interests without any of the
                              reasons for them.

                              When this has happened in the past, the logic behind it was usually one
                              of two things:

                              1. It happened somewhere else at some time on some scale, so it can
                              happen anywhere at any time and on any scale, and we must be prepared
                              for it with measures that may not be effective at all, regardless of how
                              much extra work it means for everybody ("A boy up in Minnesota froze to
                              death yesterday, so go put on a coat, even if we're in San Diego and its
                              seventy-six outside.").

                              2. While we have measures in place to guard against this, such as
                              keeping two people at the gate and doing periodic gate pulls to track
                              the money, one more measure can't hurt ("Wear your belt AND your
                              suspenders.").

                              It has also been pointed out that since there is no Society-level
                              Constable position, the Lord High Constable is responsible only to his
                              Kingdom, his Crown, and his conscience ... and the Board has much less
                              leverage with that than with a position that has a clear chain of
                              command all the way to the top. That's how the Exchequer got involved in
                              the first place. (It's time for another aphorism here: "When the only
                              tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.") Since
                              there was already a requirement for Chancellors of the Exchequer to have
                              a membership card and driver's license (or state ID) on file, it was an
                              easy step to extend those requirements to anybody that handles cash at
                              any time for any reason. Whether is was a logical step remains to be
                              demonstrated. (The reasons that have been advanced are usually that it
                              makes prosecution for embezzlement easier, but I fail to see how, unless
                              it also includeså mandatory background checks for everybody, and God
                              help us if it comes to that.)

                              Wulfie also asked the question:

                              > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer?

                              There's a very good reason for that ... the fact that the money goes
                              through two offices rather than one is one of the controls we have in
                              place for ensuring that there is no hanky-panky. At every gate pull,
                              both the Constable and the Chancellor of the Exchequer count the money
                              and sign off on the transfer slip. We therefore can tell, within a few
                              hours, how much money was collected and by whom, with dual records of
                              those transactions kept by two unaffiliated offices.

                              In conclusion, I think that instead of complying docilely with this
                              edict, we should be objecting in the most strenuous way possible. What
                              do their Majesties think of this? If we go the route of "non serviam"
                              can we count on their support?

                              --Johann von Drachenfels






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John LaTorre
                              ... I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don t take my next comment personally (we re on the same side, I think) but you seem to be saying that
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 19, 2008
                                Wulfie wrote:
                                >
                                > Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a rep as a midden-stirrer, I thought it was better to go along and let others make a fuss. So that's WHY.
                                I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don't take my next
                                comment personally (we're on the same side, I think) but you seem to be
                                saying that we're doing it because we've been told to do it, period. And
                                that really isn't good enough for me. I assume that you have been given
                                no information at all from the SCA, Inc. on the reasoning or
                                circumstances behind this policy, and that is exactly the paternalistic
                                attitude that I'm decrying. So as far as providing an explanation,
                                you're off the hook, but somebody else needs to come forth with one
                                before I'm content.
                                >
                                > According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better.

                                I hadn't heard of that, and invite these senior constables to seek me
                                out at March Crown and fil me in on the details. My own experience was
                                that there were usually discrepancies in reconciling gate reeceipts with
                                waiver counts, but I could never find a correlation between these
                                discrepancies and any one individual who was doing gate. so I concluded
                                that it was due to errors in collecting fees, making change, etc. When
                                we started doing more regular cash-pulling and documentation of cash
                                transfer, those discrepancies were greatly reduced, but I believe that
                                it was due as much to better training, and to better documentation on
                                the waiver sheet about who paid how much for what, as it was the
                                double-signature transfer procedure. As for Exchequers and Seneschals
                                "making things worse," I have no recollection of that at all. Let's talk
                                about that at Crown.

                                And Bran MacMurraugh wrote:

                                > How many mundane concerts have you been to where the security
                                > for an event sold you a ticket? Probably not many. Escorted the person
                                > with the cash box to a secure location, most definately, but actually
                                > handled the money for the event...rarely.

                                Ah, but constables are not "security people" in the conventional sense.
                                The constabulary's duties evolved in the West Kingdom in response to our
                                own needs. IIRC (and maybe the old farts like Trelaine can enlighten us
                                further) the constabulary was formed primarily to perform the dual
                                duties of collecting site fees and waivers, and only later (and at the
                                request of the Crown) undertook the job of promoting public safety as well.
                                > My suggestion would be this, Tell the person that made the suggestion
                                > to disallow the Constables from handling money without being "Specially
                                > Warrented" that WE will handle the security for the event, WE will be a
                                > presence at the gate, WE will deal with mundane law issues, WE will
                                > monitor the fire laws, WE will keep the peace, but THEY can deal with
                                > the money. In other words, WE, the Police of the Society will take care
                                > of the laws that the King has set forth, and THEY, the Treasurers of
                                > the Society can be the cashiers. See what they say then.
                                I must remind you gently that WE are not the Police of the Society (in
                                fact, we're not recognized by the Society at all, just the West
                                Kingdom). Call us "public safety" officers instead. Nor do we have any
                                powers to deal with mundane law issues or keep the peace beyond that of
                                any private citizen, and that is as it should be.
                                >
                                > You may roster me as a Senior Constable. I will uphold the laws passed
                                > down by Their Majesties, Thier Highnesses, and Their Excellencies. I
                                > shall keep the peace in accordance with the laws of the land. I shall
                                > keep the land safe from fire. And I will ensure the safety of all
                                > attending an event for as long as I am needed.
                                I'm sure the Constabulary will be happy to accept your service in
                                whatever capacity you wish to serve. Rest assured that you have my
                                personal thanks for any service you perform.
                                > I will not, under the Badge of the Constabulary, handle, recieve, or
                                > give any moneys from Gate, nor will I give my permission to be rostered
                                > to do so.
                                If you feel that you can't/shouldn't handle money, I'm sure Wulfstan
                                can work around that. As for whether it would preclude you from being
                                rostered as Senior Constable, that's Master Wulfstan's call.
                                >
                                > Cops don't deal with money, Treasurers do.
                                Again: Constables are not Cops. Never were. Never will be. But I get
                                your drift.

                                --Johann von Drachenfels
                              • Daniel Wagner
                                I have discussed this with the Exchequer, but other than assuring me that she had been told firmly that it was a requirement, you are right, I have not seen
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 19, 2008
                                  I have discussed this with the Exchequer, but other than assuring me that she had been told firmly that it was a requirement, you are right, I have not seen any direct ruling.

                                  These other incidents happened in the last two years.Not in our time.(Darn, I sound oooolllldddd when I say that!)

                                  Yes, I can work with Constables that do not want to handle cash. I have plenty of work to go around!

                                  Wulfy

                                  John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote: Wulfie wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don't take my next
                                  comment personally (we're on the same side, I think) but you seem to be
                                  saying that we're doing it because we've been told to do it, period. And
                                  that really isn't good enough for me. I assume that you have been given
                                  no information at all from the SCA, Inc. on the reasoning or
                                  circumstances behind this policy, and that is exactly the paternalistic
                                  attitude that I'm decrying. So as far as providing an explanation,
                                  you're off the hook, but somebody else needs to come forth with one
                                  before I'm content.
                                  >
                                  > According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better.

                                  I hadn't heard of that, and invite these senior constables to seek me
                                  out at March Crown and fil me in on the details. My own experience was
                                  that there were usually discrepancies in reconciling gate reeceipts with
                                  waiver counts, but I could never find a correlation between these
                                  discrepancies and any one individual who was doing gate. so I concluded
                                  that it was due to errors in collecting fees, making change, etc. When
                                  we started doing more regular cash-pulling and documentation of cash
                                  transfer, those discrepancies were greatly reduced, but I believe that
                                  it was due as much to better training, and to better documentation on
                                  the waiver sheet about who paid how much for what, as it was the
                                  double-signature transfer procedure. As for Exchequers and Seneschals
                                  "making things worse," I have no recollection of that at all. Let's talk
                                  about that at Crown.


                                  If you feel that you can't/shouldn't handle money, I'm sure Wulfstan
                                  can work around that. As for whether it would preclude you from being
                                  rostered as Senior Constable, that's Master Wulfstan's call.
                                  >
                                  > Cops don't deal with money, Treasurers do.
                                  Again: Constables are not Cops. Never were. Never will be. But I get
                                  your drift.

                                  --Johann von Drachenfels






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Susan Burch-Williamson
                                  Corporate laws are that only Exchequers and Seneschals can leagally handle the money. So West Kingdom has changed its rules about constables so that we get
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 20, 2008
                                    Corporate laws are that only Exchequers and Seneschals can leagally handle the money.
                                    So West Kingdom has changed its rules about constables so that we get warrents for the exchequer to handle box.
                                    Furthermore since we do not have corporate head West Kingdom has assigned our Kingdom Seneschal to be our final boss. Kingdom Constables report to the seneschal for all problems especially fire,medical and police immeadately after the event or during the event if they are present.
                                    Bethia




                                    What do you mean rice can't be plaid? And no my food is not molesting you, it's just friendly.

                                    In Service
                                    Lady Bethia

                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Daniel Wagner
                                    So far, I have got Warrents from: Susannah of Ely Volker Maghnus Edric I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on file) from Willeam
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                      So far, I have got Warrents from:
                                      Susannah of Ely
                                      Volker
                                      Maghnus
                                      Edric

                                      I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on file) from
                                      Willeam Grentrewis
                                      Abu S.Malik etc <g>
                                      The Momstable & Jared.
                                      Becca


                                      Nothing from Bill? Bill, you out there? Ivan? Ali?

                                      I am pretty sure that Gwyn & Angus are warrented.

                                      I have volunteers as follows:

                                      March Crown: Abu Malik
                                      A&S : a "maybe" from Becca (who will need a mentor & warrenting)
                                      West-An Tir: Bethia
                                      June Crown: Volker (who will need a mentor)
                                      Ducal: Ali (who will need a mentor)

                                      Leaving us with: Beltane, Purg, October Crown and this upcoming War Collegium.

                                      I am not planning on going the the War Collegium Feb, so Wulfric will need a warrented Senior there. Not much work, as it's a "donation only" event. Anyone?

                                      So, who's up for what? Who else is on this list that hasn't warrented? Who else needs an event to become Senior?

                                      Wulfstan


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Neves, Luis
                                      I will be sending my info soon. I will help out as much as possible- If Volker wishes it , I can help him, if Ali needs help i will be there. Achmed the
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                        I will be sending my info soon.
                                        I will help out as much as possible- If Volker wishes it , I can help
                                        him, if Ali needs help i will be there.

                                        Achmed the Wanderer , Senior Constable


                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wagner
                                        Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:17 AM
                                        To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [West Constables] updates




                                        So far, I have got Warrents from:
                                        Susannah of Ely
                                        Volker
                                        Maghnus
                                        Edric

                                        I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on
                                        file) from
                                        Willeam Grentrewis
                                        Abu S.Malik etc <g>
                                        The Momstable & Jared.
                                        Becca


                                        Nothing from Bill? Bill, you out there? Ivan? Ali?

                                        I am pretty sure that Gwyn & Angus are warrented.

                                        I have volunteers as follows:

                                        March Crown: Abu Malik
                                        A&S : a "maybe" from Becca (who will need a mentor & warrenting)
                                        West-An Tir: Bethia
                                        June Crown: Volker (who will need a mentor)
                                        Ducal: Ali (who will need a mentor)

                                        Leaving us with: Beltane, Purg, October Crown and this upcoming
                                        War Collegium.

                                        I am not planning on going the the War Collegium Feb, so Wulfric
                                        will need a warrented Senior there. Not much work, as it's a "donation
                                        only" event. Anyone?

                                        So, who's up for what? Who else is on this list that hasn't
                                        warrented? Who else needs an event to become Senior?

                                        Wulfstan

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Kim Gallagher
                                        Greetings, Is there a constable handbook avail? I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would like to do it correctly. Thank you.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                          Greetings,



                                          Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                          I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                          like to do it correctly.



                                          Thank you.

                                          In Service,

                                          Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                          Southern Shores



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Daniel Wagner
                                          Yep, it s on the Yahoo Group, under Files . I need you to send in your warrant, please. Wulfy Kim Gallagher wrote: Greetings, Is there
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                            Yep, it's on the Yahoo Group, under "Files".

                                            I need you to send in your warrant, please.
                                            Wulfy

                                            Kim Gallagher <kim@...> wrote:


                                            Greetings,

                                            Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                            I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                            like to do it correctly.

                                            Thank you.

                                            In Service,

                                            Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                            Southern Shores

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Kim Gallagher
                                            Will do. Saeun and I will take care of paperwork at our next meeting. The first Wednesday of Feb. _____ From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                              Will do. Saeun and I will take care of paperwork at our next meeting. The
                                              first Wednesday of Feb.





                                              _____

                                              From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com]
                                              On Behalf Of Daniel Wagner
                                              Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:41 AM
                                              To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [West Constables] handbook



                                              Yep, it's on the Yahoo Group, under "Files".

                                              I need you to send in your warrant, please.
                                              Wulfy

                                              Kim Gallagher <kim@gallagherclan. <mailto:kim%40gallagherclan.net> net>
                                              wrote:


                                              Greetings,

                                              Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                              I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                              like to do it correctly.

                                              Thank you.

                                              In Service,

                                              Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                              Southern Shores

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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