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Re: [West Constables] siddari

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  • Michael Elkins
    I will contact someone I believe has that info, will let you know tomorrow if no one else has been able to. Volker ...
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 16, 2008
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      I will contact someone I believe has that info, will
      let you know tomorrow if no one else has been able to.

      Volker

      --- Daniel Wagner <wulfstand@...> wrote:

      > Does anyone have any contact info for Siddari, or
      > even how to spell his name?
      >
      > Wulfy
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >



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    • Daniel Wagner
      As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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        As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my Seniors to get warrented as a Cash-box Consatble, using the Exchequer form, and mailing me that form, plus your experience, plus a xerox of your membership card & drivers License. Bill? Bethia? Ivan?

        This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer? Of course, we'd still have a Constable at Gate to handle emergencies, parking and etc, and still quite a few of us would warrent themselves as Exchequers to help out. But should the Constabulary abrogate responsibility ofr this task, as in theory we can't do it anyway? Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with out help, rather than the other way around?

        What does everyone think?

        Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wulfy95113
        OUR help, not out help . Du-oh! W ... rather than the other way around?
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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          OUR help, not "out help". Du-oh!
          W

          --- In wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wagner <wulfstand@...>
          wrote:
          > Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with ouR help,
          rather than the other way around?
          >
          > What does everyone think?
          >
          > Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Glenn Gorsuch
          I m of several minds about this little Cashbox policy, as I ve made clear to a number of people. So, here s my rant and thoughts. First, having to be
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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            I'm of several minds about this little Cashbox policy, as I've made clear to
            a number of people. So, here's my rant and thoughts.

            First, "having" to be specially Exchequer warranted to handle the cashbox?
            Pfaugh. You can't convince me that all of the dozens and dozens of people
            who handle money at big events (like Estrella, Gulf Wars, and the like) are
            all cashbox warranted by some mystical process. Sorry, ain't buying it. If
            they don't do it there(where they handle WAY more money in 24 hours than we
            might in a season of kingdom events), why should we?

            Secondly, saving the Gate, we're not a very visual office. Most of the
            time, we don't set up with the other officers, we do our non-Gate work at
            night, in the dark, and, saving the Gate, people don't think of us at all.
            Which is fine, it makes doing that other part of the job easier. We're not
            going to GET any new blood without being in people's eye. There are also
            two "tracks" of Constables...ones at large, and ones that come from being
            the Constable at local groups. The only ones we can easily track are the
            ones in the groups..and if they can't handle a cashbox, why should a group
            HAVE a constable? Local events, by and large, don't have much need for
            security...but it's still a good place for a rookie to learn things, like I
            did.

            Third, we're an office that came into being specificially to preserve a
            skill set that too few autocrats, exchequers, and seneschals have. Lord Joe
            the Autocrat may know where the porta-potties come from, and how to arrange
            for dumpsters, but the odds that he's also a people person with crisis
            management skills and with a large enough staff to manage things like Gate
            and security are vanishingly small. Thus, the Constabulary as a reusable
            pool of people who deal with Foo when it comes down, and know how to deal
            tactfully with looky-loos at the Gate, and have the numbers to be multiple
            places at once. No offense meant to the Exchequers, but they're picked to
            handle money, not people. Seneschals don't generally work on the immediate
            timelines that we do. Having reconciled the Gate after both have run it, I
            can say, honestly, yikes! Our error rate is way lower than theirs. Maybe
            it's because they don't usually do multiple things at once, maybe it's
            because they don't know all the proper procedures, but there it is.

            Ah, but you mentioned something about still having a Constable at the Gate?
            Whyever would you? You simply can't have two bosses running things, and
            from a management perspective, too many people at the Gate usually results
            in less efficiency. Seriously. We tried it with having a Chatelaine at the
            Gate, didn't work then, either. You get lots of little conversations which
            really slows things down. Worse, now you have to have TWICE as many
            specialized volunteers to find for one post as before...with the same
            population.

            Now, I confess, there is a certain evil delight in the notion of foisting
            off the cashbox, sunshade, table, chairs, clipboards, pens, lighting, et
            voluminous cetera off on another Office. I mean, it would certainly give ME
            more room for my stuff in my truck, and give me less to load and unload.
            And indeed, when I took my current office, that WAS the thought that
            occurred to me. But then I thought about it, as above, and decided that
            that was rather unworthy of me. If we had a motto, it might be something
            like "We Do the Job." Because we do. To do less than the Job would be
            letting my Kingdom down. And I'm not willing to do that.

            Further, how do you all feel about "not being trusted" by the Board or
            whomever? I mean, honestly, it's *only* money. We already deal with
            terribly sensitive and delicate situations--things like possible child
            abuse, allegations of rape, assaults, and the disputes between camps, or
            between mundanes and ourselves. But they don't trust us with a few hundred
            dollars in a box? I repeat my earlier pfaugh. I already have had several
            people tell me that if they're not trusted to do cashbox, why should they
            volunteer to help with the rest of it? What happened to Honor and Chivalry
            and stuff like that? You know, the REASON we come dressed in funny clothes
            for these events?

            Thus, my suggestion; If someone has learned enough, been trained enough,
            and has demonstrated the skills enough for me, my Mists counterpart, or our
            Kingdom boss to say "Hey, you're not a trainee constable anymore, you're the
            real deal", why not send the required information straight on to whomever
            keeps track of who can access the cashbox (I believe that would be the
            Exchequer), and be done with it? Can they not believe we're going to check
            our our volunteers to make sure they have the skills to make change, along
            with how to help a drunk back to his tent? Further, you'd think that
            perhaps the Seneschals and Exchequers might favor such a notion--it gives
            THEM A bigger pool to look at when they're looking for sucessors ("Hey, I
            know this person can count money and track sign-ins, maybe they can take
            over for me?")

            Okay, rant over for now.

            Gwyn Chwith ap Llyr
            Cynaguan Constable
            On Jan 17, 2008 8:24 AM, wulfy95113 <wulfstand@...> wrote:

            > <SNIP>


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Larry McCoy
            ... To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks. Couple reasons right off the top of my head. I ve been in the SCA for 30 years. I ve
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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              Daniel Wagner wrote:

              >As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my Seniors to get warrented as a Cash-box Consatble, using the Exchequer form, and mailing me that form, plus your experience, plus a xerox of your membership card & drivers License. Bill? Bethia? Ivan?
              >
              > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer? Of course, we'd still have a Constable at Gate to handle emergencies, parking and etc, and still quite a few of us would warrent themselves as Exchequers to help out. But should the Constabulary abrogate responsibility ofr this task, as in theory we can't do it anyway? Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with out help, rather than the other way around?
              >
              > What does everyone think?
              >
              > Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.
              >
              >
              To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks.

              Couple reasons right off the top of my head.

              I've been in the SCA for 30 years.
              I've worked as a constable on and off for 28.
              (I've been known to put in over 70 hours at Estrella as a constable,
              thats real time hours, not volunteer ticket time hours).
              I've dealt with muggers, drunks, drunks with knives/swords, thieves,
              theft, mundanes with guns, sca people with guns, assaults, etc etc etc
              I've been the exchequer of a local group and the Mists
              I've handed way more than my share of cash boxes at Kingdom level
              events for years.
              I'm a Pelican and a Knight, former EM of my Kingdom.
              And unless you're a recent participant/new to the SCA, (in the last 4
              years), chances are you know me..

              And they need a copy of my membership card? to get rewarranted as an
              Exchequer?? and a copy of my Drivers License???

              Not gonna happen... I don't show anyone my DL unless I get stopped. (and
              I haven't in more than 20 years.

              What I will give them is my membership number. #11799
              And my Drivers license Number... CDL N8390557

              they can take their "requirements " and put 'em where the sun don't
              shine....

              Anluan "the grumpy/very grumpy" Trelaine
              grumble mutter mutter cuss grumble growl mutter

              I know, I know, it's not you guys fault.....
            • Larry McCoy
              Larry McCoy wrote: Ahhh crud... thought I sent that private... Sorry all.. was venting.. already been a bad day here..... ... Trelaine
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                Larry McCoy wrote:


                Ahhh crud...
                thought I sent that private...

                Sorry all.. was venting.. already been a bad day here.....

                :(


                Trelaine
              • Daniel Wagner
                You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I ll forward
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                  You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I'll forward it. If she/they don't accept it, then on their head be it. ;-)

                  I had the same issue with requiring folks to show their ID cards at gate. However, I have no problem at all with the compromise of asking folks to write down their membership ID # on the waiver. So, I'll make the same compromise here. If you have problems with making copies of that info, simply notate the numbers and I'll forward the forms like that.

                  Fair?

                  Wulfy

                  Larry McCoy <trelaine@...> wrote:
                  Daniel Wagner wrote:

                  >As I am sure you have all heard, in order for a Constable to work Cashbox, he or she must be warrented as a Exchequer (or Seneschal). So, I need all my Seniors to get warrented as a Cash-box Consatble, using the Exchequer form, and mailing me that form, plus your experience, plus a xerox of your membership card & drivers License. Bill? Bethia? Ivan?
                  >
                  > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer? Of course, we'd still have a Constable at Gate to handle emergencies, parking and etc, and still quite a few of us would warrent themselves as Exchequers to help out. But should the Constabulary abrogate responsibility ofr this task, as in theory we can't do it anyway? Let the Exchequer (and the Seneschal) handle it, with out help, rather than the other way around?
                  >
                  > What does everyone think?
                  >
                  > Wulfstan, Kingdom Constable.
                  >
                  >
                  To be honest, I think the whole thing, (requirements), suks rocks.

                  Couple reasons right off the top of my head.

                  I've been in the SCA for 30 years.
                  I've worked as a constable on and off for 28.
                  (I've been known to put in over 70 hours at Estrella as a constable,
                  thats real time hours, not volunteer ticket time hours).
                  I've dealt with muggers, drunks, drunks with knives/swords, thieves,
                  theft, mundanes with guns, sca people with guns, assaults, etc etc etc
                  I've been the exchequer of a local group and the Mists
                  I've handed way more than my share of cash boxes at Kingdom level
                  events for years.
                  I'm a Pelican and a Knight, former EM of my Kingdom.
                  And unless you're a recent participant/new to the SCA, (in the last 4
                  years), chances are you know me..

                  And they need a copy of my membership card? to get rewarranted as an
                  Exchequer?? and a copy of my Drivers License???

                  Not gonna happen... I don't show anyone my DL unless I get stopped. (and
                  I haven't in more than 20 years.

                  What I will give them is my membership number. #11799
                  And my Drivers license Number... CDL N8390557

                  they can take their "requirements " and put 'em where the sun don't
                  shine....

                  Anluan "the grumpy/very grumpy" Trelaine
                  grumble mutter mutter cuss grumble growl mutter

                  I know, I know, it's not you guys fault.....






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Daniel Wagner
                  Certain eeeeviiilll delight . Yes, I like the sound of that. heh, heh, heh. Good feedback. Wulfy (who has been called evil in the past) Glenn
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                    <evil laugh> "Certain eeeeviiilll delight". Yes, I like the sound of that. heh, heh, heh.
                    <g>

                    Good feedback.

                    Wulfy (who has been called evil in the past)

                    Glenn Gorsuch ggorsuch@... wrote:
                    Now, I confess, there is a certain evil delight in the notion of foisting
                    off the cashbox, sunshade, table, chairs, clipboards, pens, lighting, et
                    voluminous cetera off on another Office. I mean, it would certainly give ME
                    more room for my stuff in my truck, and give me less to load and unload.
                    And indeed, when I took my current office, that WAS the thought that
                    occurred to me. But then I thought about it, as above, and decided that
                    that was rather unworthy of me


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Larry McCoy
                    ... Nah.. I ll jump through the hoops like a good trooper... won t neccessarily like it, but I can deal... Trelaine
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                      Daniel Wagner wrote:

                      >You know, I agree with you to a point. Send me a copy of the warrent, signed and all- with that info attached, instead of a copy of the cards, and I'll forward it. If she/they don't accept it, then on their head be it. ;-)
                      >
                      > I had the same issue with requiring folks to show their ID cards at gate. However, I have no problem at all with the compromise of asking folks to write down their membership ID # on the waiver. So, I'll make the same compromise here. If you have problems with making copies of that info, simply notate the numbers and I'll forward the forms like that.
                      >
                      > Fair?
                      >
                      > Wulfy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      Nah.. I'll jump through the hoops like a good trooper...
                      won't neccessarily like it, but I can deal...

                      Trelaine
                    • anastacia
                      Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the rest of
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                        Hi all,

                        The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                        Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                        rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                        I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                        Regards,

                        Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                        gate...sorry)
                      • Daniel Wagner
                        Even I have to re-roster. ;-) anastacia wrote: Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 17, 2008
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                          Even I have to re-roster. ;-)

                          anastacia <anastacia@...> wrote: Hi all,

                          The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                          Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                          rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                          I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                          Regards,

                          Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                          gate...sorry)






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joshua Hitchcock
                          I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box. By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
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                            I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box.
                            By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a
                            list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                            I do for my kingdom. I'm willing to spend my time at
                            gate but it would be nice if I didn't have to spend
                            all of my event time working at gate. I will send off
                            my warrant as soon as possible to you Wulfy.

                            Joshua J. Hitchcock
                            or
                            Captain Angus Mc Stagger "Constable of the Mist"

                            And that's the bottom line. Because I frick'n said so!


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                          • Daniel Wagner
                            This is what the Kingdom Exchequer and I spent about an hour discussing at 12th Nite. She agreed in principal, and she agreed that her Office should likely
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
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                              This is what the Kingdom Exchequer and I spent about an hour discussing at 12th Nite. She agreed in principal, and she agreed that her Office should likely handle Collegium and 12th Nite, i.e. non-camping events. She is very willing to listen and even compromise to an extent.She agreed to get me a list of Warrented cash-box 'cashiers". We agreed that the warrents are a requirement, due to a dictum from "Above". We discussed my issue here, also.

                              Wulfstan, High Constable.

                              Joshua Hitchcock <mr_hitchcock@...> wrote:
                              I think that the Exchequer should help us run the box.
                              By helping us with staffing or supplying us with a
                              list of people who are warranted for box. I like what
                              I do for my kingdom. I'm willing to spend my time at
                              gate but it would be nice if I didn't have to spend
                              all of my event time working at gate. I will send off
                              my warrant as soon as possible to you Wulfy.

                              Joshua J. Hitchcock
                              or
                              Captain Angus Mc Stagger "Constable of the Mist"

                              And that's the bottom line. Because I frick'n said so!

                              __________________________________________________________
                              Be a better friend, newshound, and
                              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Daniel Wagner
                              Auntie - I d appreciate your roster or your warrent, in any case. Wulfy anastacia wrote: Hi all, The lord who would like to CiC
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                "Auntie"- I'd appreciate your roster or your warrent, in any case.

                                Wulfy

                                anastacia <anastacia@...> wrote:
                                Hi all,

                                The lord who would like to CiC Crown for Lady Katrina is Malik (Michael
                                Rodelli) I will pass the info that he needs to re-roster just like the
                                rest of us but he's been a Constable for about .... a long time.

                                I'm sure you'll hear from him soon.

                                Regards,

                                Auntie (who has too many other things going this year to sit at the
                                gate...sorry)






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John LaTorre
                                Greetings to the list! I m responding to this new policy of having a warranted Exchequer handling the cash box at the gate. I ve been holding my peace (read:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                  Greetings to the list!

                                  I'm responding to this new policy of having a "warranted Exchequer"
                                  handling the cash box at the gate. I've been holding my peace (read:
                                  biting my tongue) for the past couple of days, but I think it's time to
                                  respond to this subject.

                                  First, some credentials. I was Kingdom Chacellor of the Exchequer or
                                  four years, and Cynaguan Chancellor of the Exchequer for another four
                                  years. In that capacity, I participated in the process of creating the
                                  Exchequer's Handbook, and I lobbied hard for variances for some of the
                                  policies I found particularly cumbersome or odious to the West Kingdom.
                                  I was Principality Constable for the Mists for two years, and Deputy
                                  Kingdom Constable for two years under Master Balin the Hunter. During
                                  that time, I brought the Constable's Handbook into its current form. So
                                  if I come across as a person who might actually know something about the
                                  subject, please forgive me.

                                  I agree with Gwyn and Trelaine here (particularly Trelaine, and I'm glad
                                  he mistakenly put his comments on the list). Once again, the Corporate
                                  office is addressing a problem that simply doesn't seem to exist, using
                                  a solution that won't work.

                                  What dismays me the most is that nowhere in any of this discussion has
                                  anybody explained to me the reasons for this policy, or the
                                  circumstances that dictated it. WHY are we supposed to be doing this?
                                  Has some other kingdom experienced a situation where large sums of money
                                  are being pocketed by the gate people? Was this situation cleared up
                                  when a "warranted Exchequer" was assigned to the gate, and could it be
                                  shown that this person's warrant made any difference? Perhaps if
                                  Gwenhwyfaer or Wulfie or the Society Chancellor of the Exchequer or our
                                  Ombudsman or whoever could give us a very good reason for taking these
                                  extra steps, I could sign on to it. But we are, as usual, treated like
                                  children who are given Rules For Our Best Interests without any of the
                                  reasons for them.

                                  When this has happened in the past, the logic behind it was usually one
                                  of two things:

                                  1. It happened somewhere else at some time on some scale, so it can
                                  happen anywhere at any time and on any scale, and we must be prepared
                                  for it with measures that may not be effective at all, regardless of how
                                  much extra work it means for everybody ("A boy up in Minnesota froze to
                                  death yesterday, so go put on a coat, even if we're in San Diego and its
                                  seventy-six outside.").

                                  2. While we have measures in place to guard against this, such as
                                  keeping two people at the gate and doing periodic gate pulls to track
                                  the money, one more measure can't hurt ("Wear your belt AND your
                                  suspenders.").

                                  It has also been pointed out that since there is no Society-level
                                  Constable position, the Lord High Constable is responsible only to his
                                  Kingdom, his Crown, and his conscience ... and the Board has much less
                                  leverage with that than with a position that has a clear chain of
                                  command all the way to the top. That's how the Exchequer got involved in
                                  the first place. (It's time for another aphorism here: "When the only
                                  tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.") Since
                                  there was already a requirement for Chancellors of the Exchequer to have
                                  a membership card and driver's license (or state ID) on file, it was an
                                  easy step to extend those requirements to anybody that handles cash at
                                  any time for any reason. Whether is was a logical step remains to be
                                  demonstrated. (The reasons that have been advanced are usually that it
                                  makes prosecution for embezzlement easier, but I fail to see how, unless
                                  it also includeså mandatory background checks for everybody, and God
                                  help us if it comes to that.)

                                  Wulfie also asked the question:

                                  > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer?

                                  There's a very good reason for that ... the fact that the money goes
                                  through two offices rather than one is one of the controls we have in
                                  place for ensuring that there is no hanky-panky. At every gate pull,
                                  both the Constable and the Chancellor of the Exchequer count the money
                                  and sign off on the transfer slip. We therefore can tell, within a few
                                  hours, how much money was collected and by whom, with dual records of
                                  those transactions kept by two unaffiliated offices.

                                  In conclusion, I think that instead of complying docilely with this
                                  edict, we should be objecting in the most strenuous way possible. What
                                  do their Majesties think of this? If we go the route of "non serviam"
                                  can we count on their support?



                                  --Johann von Drachenfels
                                • Daniel Wagner
                                  Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 18, 2008
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                                    Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a rep as a midden-stirrer, I thought it was better to go along and let others make a fuss. So that's WHY.

                                    According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better. Of course, I, like you John, am both an Exchequer and a Constable.

                                    Gwenhwyfaer should now be on this list, so I hope she'll reply. We have discussed this, and she was open to compromise on every issue but the warrant issue, and that seems to be coming Top Down, not from her. So, it's not just her- let's not blame her.

                                    Personally, I never used Warrants and had no problems (well, we lost- then found- a whole page of waivers when I just did A&S, but that was a known oops). But then I was notorious for sitting behind the box for nigh the entire event.

                                    The "turning over the cash box" is more or less our Nuke strike in the hole. If the Powers That Be make things too onerous for the Constables, we can hand over the box and just do Fire Watch. Of course, I don't want to do this. I agree that having two Offices keep an eye on the cash is a Good Thing.

                                    Wulfy

                                    John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote:
                                    Greetings to the list!

                                    I'm responding to this new policy of having a "warranted Exchequer"
                                    handling the cash box at the gate. I've been holding my peace (read:
                                    biting my tongue) for the past couple of days, but I think it's time to
                                    respond to this subject.

                                    First, some credentials. I was Kingdom Chacellor of the Exchequer or
                                    four years, and Cynaguan Chancellor of the Exchequer for another four
                                    years. In that capacity, I participated in the process of creating the
                                    Exchequer's Handbook, and I lobbied hard for variances for some of the
                                    policies I found particularly cumbersome or odious to the West Kingdom.
                                    I was Principality Constable for the Mists for two years, and Deputy
                                    Kingdom Constable for two years under Master Balin the Hunter. During
                                    that time, I brought the Constable's Handbook into its current form. So
                                    if I come across as a person who might actually know something about the
                                    subject, please forgive me.

                                    I agree with Gwyn and Trelaine here (particularly Trelaine, and I'm glad
                                    he mistakenly put his comments on the list). Once again, the Corporate
                                    office is addressing a problem that simply doesn't seem to exist, using
                                    a solution that won't work.

                                    What dismays me the most is that nowhere in any of this discussion has
                                    anybody explained to me the reasons for this policy, or the
                                    circumstances that dictated it. WHY are we supposed to be doing this?
                                    Has some other kingdom experienced a situation where large sums of money
                                    are being pocketed by the gate people? Was this situation cleared up
                                    when a "warranted Exchequer" was assigned to the gate, and could it be
                                    shown that this person's warrant made any difference? Perhaps if
                                    Gwenhwyfaer or Wulfie or the Society Chancellor of the Exchequer or our
                                    Ombudsman or whoever could give us a very good reason for taking these
                                    extra steps, I could sign on to it. But we are, as usual, treated like
                                    children who are given Rules For Our Best Interests without any of the
                                    reasons for them.

                                    When this has happened in the past, the logic behind it was usually one
                                    of two things:

                                    1. It happened somewhere else at some time on some scale, so it can
                                    happen anywhere at any time and on any scale, and we must be prepared
                                    for it with measures that may not be effective at all, regardless of how
                                    much extra work it means for everybody ("A boy up in Minnesota froze to
                                    death yesterday, so go put on a coat, even if we're in San Diego and its
                                    seventy-six outside.").

                                    2. While we have measures in place to guard against this, such as
                                    keeping two people at the gate and doing periodic gate pulls to track
                                    the money, one more measure can't hurt ("Wear your belt AND your
                                    suspenders.").

                                    It has also been pointed out that since there is no Society-level
                                    Constable position, the Lord High Constable is responsible only to his
                                    Kingdom, his Crown, and his conscience ... and the Board has much less
                                    leverage with that than with a position that has a clear chain of
                                    command all the way to the top. That's how the Exchequer got involved in
                                    the first place. (It's time for another aphorism here: "When the only
                                    tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.") Since
                                    there was already a requirement for Chancellors of the Exchequer to have
                                    a membership card and driver's license (or state ID) on file, it was an
                                    easy step to extend those requirements to anybody that handles cash at
                                    any time for any reason. Whether is was a logical step remains to be
                                    demonstrated. (The reasons that have been advanced are usually that it
                                    makes prosecution for embezzlement easier, but I fail to see how, unless
                                    it also includeså mandatory background checks for everybody, and God
                                    help us if it comes to that.)

                                    Wulfie also asked the question:

                                    > This brings up the question- why do we not hand over the cashboxes and the whole job of running cash box to the Office of the Exchequer?

                                    There's a very good reason for that ... the fact that the money goes
                                    through two offices rather than one is one of the controls we have in
                                    place for ensuring that there is no hanky-panky. At every gate pull,
                                    both the Constable and the Chancellor of the Exchequer count the money
                                    and sign off on the transfer slip. We therefore can tell, within a few
                                    hours, how much money was collected and by whom, with dual records of
                                    those transactions kept by two unaffiliated offices.

                                    In conclusion, I think that instead of complying docilely with this
                                    edict, we should be objecting in the most strenuous way possible. What
                                    do their Majesties think of this? If we go the route of "non serviam"
                                    can we count on their support?

                                    --Johann von Drachenfels






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John LaTorre
                                    ... I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don t take my next comment personally (we re on the same side, I think) but you seem to be saying that
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                      Wulfie wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, *I* am asking for Warrants as I was told they were Required by the Powers That Be in Milpitas. I do not agree with this Policy, but since I have such a rep as a midden-stirrer, I thought it was better to go along and let others make a fuss. So that's WHY.
                                      I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don't take my next
                                      comment personally (we're on the same side, I think) but you seem to be
                                      saying that we're doing it because we've been told to do it, period. And
                                      that really isn't good enough for me. I assume that you have been given
                                      no information at all from the SCA, Inc. on the reasoning or
                                      circumstances behind this policy, and that is exactly the paternalistic
                                      attitude that I'm decrying. So as far as providing an explanation,
                                      you're off the hook, but somebody else needs to come forth with one
                                      before I'm content.
                                      >
                                      > According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better.

                                      I hadn't heard of that, and invite these senior constables to seek me
                                      out at March Crown and fil me in on the details. My own experience was
                                      that there were usually discrepancies in reconciling gate reeceipts with
                                      waiver counts, but I could never find a correlation between these
                                      discrepancies and any one individual who was doing gate. so I concluded
                                      that it was due to errors in collecting fees, making change, etc. When
                                      we started doing more regular cash-pulling and documentation of cash
                                      transfer, those discrepancies were greatly reduced, but I believe that
                                      it was due as much to better training, and to better documentation on
                                      the waiver sheet about who paid how much for what, as it was the
                                      double-signature transfer procedure. As for Exchequers and Seneschals
                                      "making things worse," I have no recollection of that at all. Let's talk
                                      about that at Crown.

                                      And Bran MacMurraugh wrote:

                                      > How many mundane concerts have you been to where the security
                                      > for an event sold you a ticket? Probably not many. Escorted the person
                                      > with the cash box to a secure location, most definately, but actually
                                      > handled the money for the event...rarely.

                                      Ah, but constables are not "security people" in the conventional sense.
                                      The constabulary's duties evolved in the West Kingdom in response to our
                                      own needs. IIRC (and maybe the old farts like Trelaine can enlighten us
                                      further) the constabulary was formed primarily to perform the dual
                                      duties of collecting site fees and waivers, and only later (and at the
                                      request of the Crown) undertook the job of promoting public safety as well.
                                      > My suggestion would be this, Tell the person that made the suggestion
                                      > to disallow the Constables from handling money without being "Specially
                                      > Warrented" that WE will handle the security for the event, WE will be a
                                      > presence at the gate, WE will deal with mundane law issues, WE will
                                      > monitor the fire laws, WE will keep the peace, but THEY can deal with
                                      > the money. In other words, WE, the Police of the Society will take care
                                      > of the laws that the King has set forth, and THEY, the Treasurers of
                                      > the Society can be the cashiers. See what they say then.
                                      I must remind you gently that WE are not the Police of the Society (in
                                      fact, we're not recognized by the Society at all, just the West
                                      Kingdom). Call us "public safety" officers instead. Nor do we have any
                                      powers to deal with mundane law issues or keep the peace beyond that of
                                      any private citizen, and that is as it should be.
                                      >
                                      > You may roster me as a Senior Constable. I will uphold the laws passed
                                      > down by Their Majesties, Thier Highnesses, and Their Excellencies. I
                                      > shall keep the peace in accordance with the laws of the land. I shall
                                      > keep the land safe from fire. And I will ensure the safety of all
                                      > attending an event for as long as I am needed.
                                      I'm sure the Constabulary will be happy to accept your service in
                                      whatever capacity you wish to serve. Rest assured that you have my
                                      personal thanks for any service you perform.
                                      > I will not, under the Badge of the Constabulary, handle, recieve, or
                                      > give any moneys from Gate, nor will I give my permission to be rostered
                                      > to do so.
                                      If you feel that you can't/shouldn't handle money, I'm sure Wulfstan
                                      can work around that. As for whether it would preclude you from being
                                      rostered as Senior Constable, that's Master Wulfstan's call.
                                      >
                                      > Cops don't deal with money, Treasurers do.
                                      Again: Constables are not Cops. Never were. Never will be. But I get
                                      your drift.

                                      --Johann von Drachenfels
                                    • Daniel Wagner
                                      I have discussed this with the Exchequer, but other than assuring me that she had been told firmly that it was a requirement, you are right, I have not seen
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                        I have discussed this with the Exchequer, but other than assuring me that she had been told firmly that it was a requirement, you are right, I have not seen any direct ruling.

                                        These other incidents happened in the last two years.Not in our time.(Darn, I sound oooolllldddd when I say that!)

                                        Yes, I can work with Constables that do not want to handle cash. I have plenty of work to go around!

                                        Wulfy

                                        John LaTorre <jlatorre@...> wrote: Wulfie wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        I undersand your consternation, Wulfie, and please don't take my next
                                        comment personally (we're on the same side, I think) but you seem to be
                                        saying that we're doing it because we've been told to do it, period. And
                                        that really isn't good enough for me. I assume that you have been given
                                        no information at all from the SCA, Inc. on the reasoning or
                                        circumstances behind this policy, and that is exactly the paternalistic
                                        attitude that I'm decrying. So as far as providing an explanation,
                                        you're off the hook, but somebody else needs to come forth with one
                                        before I'm content.
                                        >
                                        > According to several very Senior Constables, there were a couple of shortages in this Kingdom, beyond the usual. However, the same folks said that putting Exchequers and Seneschals at the box made things worse, not better.

                                        I hadn't heard of that, and invite these senior constables to seek me
                                        out at March Crown and fil me in on the details. My own experience was
                                        that there were usually discrepancies in reconciling gate reeceipts with
                                        waiver counts, but I could never find a correlation between these
                                        discrepancies and any one individual who was doing gate. so I concluded
                                        that it was due to errors in collecting fees, making change, etc. When
                                        we started doing more regular cash-pulling and documentation of cash
                                        transfer, those discrepancies were greatly reduced, but I believe that
                                        it was due as much to better training, and to better documentation on
                                        the waiver sheet about who paid how much for what, as it was the
                                        double-signature transfer procedure. As for Exchequers and Seneschals
                                        "making things worse," I have no recollection of that at all. Let's talk
                                        about that at Crown.


                                        If you feel that you can't/shouldn't handle money, I'm sure Wulfstan
                                        can work around that. As for whether it would preclude you from being
                                        rostered as Senior Constable, that's Master Wulfstan's call.
                                        >
                                        > Cops don't deal with money, Treasurers do.
                                        Again: Constables are not Cops. Never were. Never will be. But I get
                                        your drift.

                                        --Johann von Drachenfels






                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Susan Burch-Williamson
                                        Corporate laws are that only Exchequers and Seneschals can leagally handle the money. So West Kingdom has changed its rules about constables so that we get
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                          Corporate laws are that only Exchequers and Seneschals can leagally handle the money.
                                          So West Kingdom has changed its rules about constables so that we get warrents for the exchequer to handle box.
                                          Furthermore since we do not have corporate head West Kingdom has assigned our Kingdom Seneschal to be our final boss. Kingdom Constables report to the seneschal for all problems especially fire,medical and police immeadately after the event or during the event if they are present.
                                          Bethia




                                          What do you mean rice can't be plaid? And no my food is not molesting you, it's just friendly.

                                          In Service
                                          Lady Bethia

                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Daniel Wagner
                                          So far, I have got Warrents from: Susannah of Ely Volker Maghnus Edric I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on file) from Willeam
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
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                                            So far, I have got Warrents from:
                                            Susannah of Ely
                                            Volker
                                            Maghnus
                                            Edric

                                            I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on file) from
                                            Willeam Grentrewis
                                            Abu S.Malik etc <g>
                                            The Momstable & Jared.
                                            Becca


                                            Nothing from Bill? Bill, you out there? Ivan? Ali?

                                            I am pretty sure that Gwyn & Angus are warrented.

                                            I have volunteers as follows:

                                            March Crown: Abu Malik
                                            A&S : a "maybe" from Becca (who will need a mentor & warrenting)
                                            West-An Tir: Bethia
                                            June Crown: Volker (who will need a mentor)
                                            Ducal: Ali (who will need a mentor)

                                            Leaving us with: Beltane, Purg, October Crown and this upcoming War Collegium.

                                            I am not planning on going the the War Collegium Feb, so Wulfric will need a warrented Senior there. Not much work, as it's a "donation only" event. Anyone?

                                            So, who's up for what? Who else is on this list that hasn't warrented? Who else needs an event to become Senior?

                                            Wulfstan


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Neves, Luis
                                            I will be sending my info soon. I will help out as much as possible- If Volker wishes it , I can help him, if Ali needs help i will be there. Achmed the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
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                                              I will be sending my info soon.
                                              I will help out as much as possible- If Volker wishes it , I can help
                                              him, if Ali needs help i will be there.

                                              Achmed the Wanderer , Senior Constable


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wagner
                                              Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:17 AM
                                              To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [West Constables] updates




                                              So far, I have got Warrents from:
                                              Susannah of Ely
                                              Volker
                                              Maghnus
                                              Edric

                                              I have got info but not the actual warrent (which may be on
                                              file) from
                                              Willeam Grentrewis
                                              Abu S.Malik etc <g>
                                              The Momstable & Jared.
                                              Becca


                                              Nothing from Bill? Bill, you out there? Ivan? Ali?

                                              I am pretty sure that Gwyn & Angus are warrented.

                                              I have volunteers as follows:

                                              March Crown: Abu Malik
                                              A&S : a "maybe" from Becca (who will need a mentor & warrenting)
                                              West-An Tir: Bethia
                                              June Crown: Volker (who will need a mentor)
                                              Ducal: Ali (who will need a mentor)

                                              Leaving us with: Beltane, Purg, October Crown and this upcoming
                                              War Collegium.

                                              I am not planning on going the the War Collegium Feb, so Wulfric
                                              will need a warrented Senior there. Not much work, as it's a "donation
                                              only" event. Anyone?

                                              So, who's up for what? Who else is on this list that hasn't
                                              warrented? Who else needs an event to become Senior?

                                              Wulfstan

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Kim Gallagher
                                              Greetings, Is there a constable handbook avail? I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would like to do it correctly. Thank you.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
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                                                Greetings,



                                                Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                                I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                                like to do it correctly.



                                                Thank you.

                                                In Service,

                                                Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                                Southern Shores



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Daniel Wagner
                                                Yep, it s on the Yahoo Group, under Files . I need you to send in your warrant, please. Wulfy Kim Gallagher wrote: Greetings, Is there
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Yep, it's on the Yahoo Group, under "Files".

                                                  I need you to send in your warrant, please.
                                                  Wulfy

                                                  Kim Gallagher <kim@...> wrote:


                                                  Greetings,

                                                  Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                                  I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                                  like to do it correctly.

                                                  Thank you.

                                                  In Service,

                                                  Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                                  Southern Shores

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Kim Gallagher
                                                  Will do. Saeun and I will take care of paperwork at our next meeting. The first Wednesday of Feb. _____ From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 24, 2008
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                                                    Will do. Saeun and I will take care of paperwork at our next meeting. The
                                                    first Wednesday of Feb.





                                                    _____

                                                    From: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com]
                                                    On Behalf Of Daniel Wagner
                                                    Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:41 AM
                                                    To: wkconstabulary@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: RE: [West Constables] handbook



                                                    Yep, it's on the Yahoo Group, under "Files".

                                                    I need you to send in your warrant, please.
                                                    Wulfy

                                                    Kim Gallagher <kim@gallagherclan. <mailto:kim%40gallagherclan.net> net>
                                                    wrote:


                                                    Greetings,

                                                    Is there a constable handbook avail?

                                                    I need to learn the job as well as train my deputy and successor, I would
                                                    like to do it correctly.

                                                    Thank you.

                                                    In Service,

                                                    Lady Micheila MacCallum

                                                    Southern Shores

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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