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Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands

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  • Wendell
    Rich s answer is probably right by the rules, although I agree that the rules should then be changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND Bessarabia to become
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 1 1:08 AM
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      Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
      although I agree that the rules should then be
      changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
      Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
      Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
      the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
      accepting a surrender) they probably would have
      annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
      Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
      Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
      Russian Revolution...

      Cheers,

      Wendell
      --- altemeister2001 <daniel_au_japon@...>
      wrote:

      >
      > > They are part of Finland unless Germany
      > allows the claim or lapses
      > the war.
      > > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the
      > borderlands changing
      > status from
      > > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is
      > fulfilled they would remain
      > Finnish HC.
      > >
      > > Rich Gause
      >
      > This is definitively the Textualist
      > interpretation of the rule.
      > Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes
      > from you :)
      >
      > Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make
      > borderlands Russians
      > even after the minor has surrendered without
      > condition. I wonder what
      > the Drafters would say...
      >
      > Daniel
      >
      >




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    • Mike Ensele
      Germany would, in every game, make Alsace-Lorraine home country after they conquer/Vichy France. They don t (they can t). Russia should receive the Finnish
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 1 3:18 AM
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        Germany would, in every game, make Alsace-Lorraine home country after they
        conquer/Vichy France. They don't (they can't).

        Russia should receive the Finnish Borderlands/Bessarabia as home country
        after complete conquest of the nation in question, I don't think they should
        receive the entire nation as HC and give them free occupation without
        garrison rules. If you can get the Borderlands as HC after failing to beat
        Finland in a war (as per RAW), you certainly should get them as HC after you
        curbstomp them. I'm fine with all of Finland being conquered, not annexed or
        aligned, but the border regions should be HC'able regardless of conquest or
        alignment. "If, at the end of the war with country Y (either by conquest or
        lapse of the war), or should such area be ceded to Russia without a war, if
        Russia controls X territory, X territory is considered part of the Russian
        HC until no part of X territory remains in Russian control."

        -Mike
        ncromcr@...



        On 9/1/07, Wendell <wifwendell@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
        > although I agree that the rules should then be
        > changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
        > Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
        > Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
        > the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
        > accepting a surrender) they probably would have
        > annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
        > Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
        > Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
        > Russian Revolution...
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Wendell
        > --- altemeister2001 <daniel_au_japon@...<daniel_au_japon%40hotmail.com>
        > >
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > > They are part of Finland unless Germany
        > > allows the claim or lapses
        > > the war.
        > > > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the
        > > borderlands changing
        > > status from
        > > > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is
        > > fulfilled they would remain
        > > Finnish HC.
        > > >
        > > > Rich Gause
        > >
        > > This is definitively the Textualist
        > > interpretation of the rule.
        > > Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes
        > > from you :)
        > >
        > > Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make
        > > borderlands Russians
        > > even after the minor has surrendered without
        > > condition. I wonder what
        > > the Drafters would say...
        > >
        > > Daniel
        > >
        > >
        >
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all
        > the tools to get online.
        > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Patrice Forno
        I agree. Patrice ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Rules
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 1 3:45 AM
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          I agree.
          Patrice

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <RG1066@...>
          To: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:20 AM
          Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands


          > They are part of Finland unless Germany allows the claim or lapses the
          > war.
          > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the borderlands changing status
          > from
          > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is fulfilled they would remain Finnish
          > HC.
          >
          > Rich Gause
          >
          > In a message dated 8/31/2007 3:30:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
          > daniel_au_japon@... writes:
          >
          >> Funny question...
          >>
          >> Case: The USSR claims Finish borderlands. Germany turns down the
          >> claim. The USSR conquers Finland.
          >>
          >> Are the Finish borderlands part of Russian home country or part of
          >> conquered Finland?
          >>
          >> 19.6.1 does not give a clue...
          >>
          >> Cheers,
          >>
          >> Daniel
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > **************************************
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          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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        • Patrice Forno
          For the Finnish borderlands, this is not important whether it becomes Russian home country or not, there is no city therein. Patrice ... From: Wendell
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 1 3:47 AM
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            For the Finnish borderlands, this is not important whether it becomes
            Russian home country or not, there is no city therein.
            Patrice

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Wendell" <wifwendell@...>
            To: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:08 AM
            Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands


            > Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
            > although I agree that the rules should then be
            > changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
            > Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
            > Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
            > the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
            > accepting a surrender) they probably would have
            > annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
            > Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
            > Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
            > Russian Revolution...
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Wendell
            > --- altemeister2001 <daniel_au_japon@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            >>
            >> > They are part of Finland unless Germany
            >> allows the claim or lapses
            >> the war.
            >> > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the
            >> borderlands changing
            >> status from
            >> > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is
            >> fulfilled they would remain
            >> Finnish HC.
            >> >
            >> > Rich Gause
            >>
            >> This is definitively the Textualist
            >> interpretation of the rule.
            >> Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes
            >> from you :)
            >>
            >> Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make
            >> borderlands Russians
            >> even after the minor has surrendered without
            >> condition. I wonder what
            >> the Drafters would say...
            >>
            >> Daniel
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all
            > the tools to get online.
            > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • tobiasv74
            It does matter for partisans, though. / Tobias ... borderlands ... you all
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 1 3:50 AM
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              It does matter for partisans, though.

              / Tobias

              --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Forno" <froonp@...> wrote:
              >
              > For the Finnish borderlands, this is not important whether it becomes
              > Russian home country or not, there is no city therein.
              > Patrice
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Wendell" <wifwendell@...>
              > To: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:08 AM
              > Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish
              borderlands
              >
              >
              > > Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
              > > although I agree that the rules should then be
              > > changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
              > > Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
              > > Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
              > > the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
              > > accepting a surrender) they probably would have
              > > annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
              > > Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
              > > Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
              > > Russian Revolution...
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > >
              > > Wendell
              > > --- altemeister2001 <daniel_au_japon@...>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >> > They are part of Finland unless Germany
              > >> allows the claim or lapses
              > >> the war.
              > >> > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the
              > >> borderlands changing
              > >> status from
              > >> > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is
              > >> fulfilled they would remain
              > >> Finnish HC.
              > >> >
              > >> > Rich Gause
              > >>
              > >> This is definitively the Textualist
              > >> interpretation of the rule.
              > >> Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes
              > >> from you :)
              > >>
              > >> Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make
              > >> borderlands Russians
              > >> even after the minor has surrendered without
              > >> condition. I wonder what
              > >> the Drafters would say...
              > >>
              > >> Daniel
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              > > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives
              you all
              > > the tools to get online.
              > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • popo1@optonline.net
              I suggest that the two ways to look at things be hereafter labelled: Textualist The wrong way Bill P ... From: altemeister2001 Date: Saturday, September 1,
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 1 5:27 AM
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                I suggest that the two ways to look at things be hereafter labelled:

                Textualist
                The wrong way

                Bill P

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: altemeister2001
                Date: Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:51 am
                Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands
                To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com

                >
                > > They are part of Finland unless Germany allows the claim or lapses
                > the war.
                > > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the borderlands changing
                > status from
                > > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is fulfilled they would remain
                > Finnish HC.
                > >
                > > Rich Gause
                >
                > This is definitively the Textualist interpretation of the rule.
                > Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes from you :)
                >
                > Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make borderlands Russians
                > even after the minor has surrendered without condition. I wonder what
                > the Drafters would say...
                >
                > Daniel
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • popo1@optonline.net
                It matters at least for: Partisans (both Russian and Finnish) Enemy units in home country PM Attacks in home country PM Strength of intrinsic notional
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 1 5:38 AM
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                  It matters at least for:

                  Partisans (both Russian and Finnish)
                  Enemy units in home country PM
                  Attacks in home country PM
                  Strength of intrinsic notional
                  Placement of Leningrad militia if Leningrad overstacked
                  Placement of Russian naval reinforcements
                  FTC for other Allies both major and minor (and Russia's own minors)

                  Bill P

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Patrice Forno
                  Date: Saturday, September 1, 2007 6:47 am
                  Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands
                  To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com

                  > For the Finnish borderlands, this is not important whether it
                  > becomes
                  > Russian home country or not, there is no city therein.
                  > Patrice
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Wendell"
                  > To:
                  > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:08 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish
                  > borderlands
                  >
                  > > Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
                  > > although I agree that the rules should then be
                  > > changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
                  > > Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
                  > > Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
                  > > the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
                  > > accepting a surrender) they probably would have
                  > > annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
                  > > Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
                  > > Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
                  > > Russian Revolution...
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > >
                  > > Wendell
                  > > --- altemeister2001
                  > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >>
                  > >> > They are part of Finland unless Germany
                  > >> allows the claim or lapses
                  > >> the war.
                  > >> > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the
                  > >> borderlands changing
                  > >> status from
                  > >> > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is
                  > >> fulfilled they would remain
                  > >> Finnish HC.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Rich Gause
                  > >>
                  > >> This is definitively the Textualist
                  > >> interpretation of the rule.
                  > >> Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes
                  > >> from you :)
                  > >>
                  > >> Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make
                  > >> borderlands Russians
                  > >> even after the minor has surrendered without
                  > >> condition. I wonder what
                  > >> the Drafters would say...
                  > >>
                  > >> Daniel
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all
                  > > the tools to get online.
                  > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • altemeister2001
                  ... after they ... And did not ask for it when settling Vichy armistice either. (they never told Vichy what they were doing in Alsace Lorraine. Vichy has a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 1 9:05 AM
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                    --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Ensele" <ncromcr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Germany would, in every game, make Alsace-Lorraine home country
                    after they
                    > conquer/Vichy France. They don't (they can't).

                    And did not ask for it when settling Vichy armistice either.

                    (they never told Vichy what they were doing in Alsace Lorraine. Vichy
                    has a long history of complaining of armistice settlement violation
                    about Alsace-Lorraine - complains which of course never had any effect)

                    Daniel
                  • altemeister2001
                    My guess is this is a strongly biaised Textualist point of view :)
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 1 9:08 AM
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                      My guess is this is a strongly biaised Textualist point of view :)

                      --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, popo1@... wrote:
                      >
                      > I suggest that the two ways to look at things be hereafter labelled:
                      >
                      > Textualist
                      > The wrong way
                      >
                      > Bill P
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: altemeister2001
                      > Date: Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:51 am
                      > Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands
                      > To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > >
                      > > > They are part of Finland unless Germany allows the claim or lapses
                      > > the war.
                      > > > 19.6.1 gives you those two reasons for the borderlands changing
                      > > status from
                      > > > finland HC to USSR HC so if neither is fulfilled they would remain
                      > > Finnish HC.
                      > > >
                      > > > Rich Gause
                      > >
                      > > This is definitively the Textualist interpretation of the rule.
                      > > Strangely, I am not that surprised it comes from you :)
                      > >
                      > > Strange consequence that the USSR cannot make borderlands Russians
                      > > even after the minor has surrendered without condition. I wonder what
                      > > the Drafters would say...
                      > >
                      > > Daniel
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • RG1066@aol.com
                      Then play it as a house rule if you think it should be that way. I m not saying I don t think it should be that way just that it is not what the rules say.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 1 11:49 AM
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                        Then play it as a house rule if you think it should be that way. I'm not
                        saying I don't think it should be that way just that it is not what the rules
                        say.

                        Rich Gause

                        In a message dated 9/1/2007 6:20:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        ncromcr@... writes:

                        > Germany would, in every game, make Alsace-Lorraine home country after they
                        > conquer/Vichy France. They don't (they can't).
                        >
                        > Russia should receive the Finnish Borderlands/Bessarabia as home country
                        > after complete conquest of the nation in question, I don't think they should
                        > receive the entire nation as HC and give them free occupation without
                        > garrison rules. If you can get the Borderlands as HC after failing to beat
                        > Finland in a war (as per RAW), you certainly should get them as HC after you
                        > curbstomp them. I'm fine with all of Finland being conquered, not annexed or
                        > aligned, but the border regions should be HC'able regardless of conquest or
                        > alignment. "If, at the end of the war with country Y (either by conquest or
                        > lapse of the war), or should such area be ceded to Russia without a war, if
                        > Russia controls X territory, X territory is considered part of the Russian
                        > HC until no part of X territory remains in Russian control."
                        >
                        > -Mike
                        >




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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • RG1066@aol.com
                        The problem with trying to apply common sense to the rules when someone does not like the literal meaning of them is that you can make multiple different
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 1 11:49 AM
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                          The problem with trying to apply "common sense" to the rules when someone
                          does not like the literal meaning of them is that you can make multiple
                          different arguments for what common sense would be. I could say the borderlands
                          become home country if the claim is allowed or war lapses because most of the
                          people who don't want to be USSR citizens leave but in the case of complete
                          conquest of the entier country they stay home. Now show me why your common sense is
                          right and mine is wrong. The right way to do it is make a house rule for your
                          group if people agree but to know when you need a house rule you have to know
                          what the rules actually say. Interjecting a bunch of common sense and I wish
                          it said this opinions into a debate about what the rule says is
                          counterproductive IMO.

                          Rich Gause

                          In a message dated 9/1/2007 6:48:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          froonp@... writes:

                          > For the Finnish borderlands, this is not important whether it becomes
                          > Russian home country or not, there is no city therein.
                          > Patrice
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Wendell" <wifwendell@...>
                          > To: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:08 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: Rules question (again) - Finish borderlands
                          >
                          > >Rich's answer is probably right by the rules,
                          > >although I agree that the rules should then be
                          > >changed to allow the Finnish borderlands AND
                          > >Bessarabia to become Soviet home country if the
                          > >Soviets ever conquer those countries. OTOH, if
                          > >the Soviets had conquered Finland (as opposed to
                          > >accepting a surrender) they probably would have
                          > >annexed the whole COUNTRY and made it part of the
                          > >Soviet home country, as it was (well, the
                          > >Russian) for quite a while before WW I and the
                          > >Russian Revolution...
                          > >
                          > >Cheers,
                          > >
                          > >Wendell
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Vesa.Saarinen@helsinki.fi
                          If the Soviets would have conquered Finland, I believe the historical fact of the Karelians (or 99% of them) moving from the borderlands to Finland would not
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 1 2:49 PM
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                            If the Soviets would have conquered Finland, I believe the historical fact
                            of the Karelians (or 99% of them) moving from the borderlands to Finland
                            would not have happened because there would not have been a free Finland
                            to move into. Thus the area would have been very much anti-Soviet. Also I
                            don't think the Soviets would have put any special measures to that
                            particular area - the whole of Finland would have been hard pressed but by
                            no means to be considered as Soviet home country. So this is why I think
                            the RAW is quite correct here.

                            Just my opinion.

                            -Vesa-
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