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Another oilmystery

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  • spjacobi
    ... That s what he s saying: trace to supply and oil from that port. It makes sense to me that if you want to unflip ships at sea that they must be able to
    Message 1 of 58 , Sep 1, 2006
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      --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "paulderynck" <pderynck@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I respectfully disagree. It doesn't solve the perceived problem of
      > re-oiling units at sea by using isolated oil, unless you further
      > stipulate:
      > - units at sea now need to be in supply
      > - the port used for tracing supply must be the same one as used for
      > tracing a path to the oil

      That's what he's saying: "trace to supply and oil from that port."

      It makes sense to me that if you want to unflip ships at sea that
      they must be able to have returned to a port that can trace a supply
      line of any length. This isn't difficult. If playing with oil,
      you've got to trace oil to the port as well.

      > This would entail greater changes to RAW (along with the usual
      > unforeseen consequences) then just specifying a way for units at sea
      > to trace to oil.

      I can't argue against unstated unforeseen consequences. If someone
      wants to raise a concrete objection, I'll be happy to respond.

      In the meantime, the rules as written are unclear as to what
      supply/oil path, if any, is required for ships remaining at sea. The
      other proposals lead to rather strange results. If you want a simple
      rule that applies generally to the cases of German SUBs in France,
      the Japanese fleet and the NEI oil, and other instances, this seems
      to be it.

      BTW, the language presented is not necessarily the way the final rule
      should be worded. It's the concept that's important. Also, one may
      wish to limit supply capacity of minor ports to 2 or 4 ships (4 with
      SIF). If this extra bit of realism adds unwanted complexity, it can
      be dropped.

      Steven Jacobi
    • FHB Gamer
      The implied rule here is the only thing that can be spent is those oil sources traced to. Obviously this got lost some where. That is the implication of if 3
      Message 58 of 58 , Sep 12, 2006
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        The implied rule here is the only thing that can be spent is those oil
        sources traced to. Obviously this got lost some where. That is the
        implication of if 3 units trace to one you have to spend that one, see the
        example.
        Thus if you have 5 saved resources and 2 synth oil in japan and trace 14 oil
        dependant units (2 to each oil) ypou would spend 3 oil of those traced to.
        Someone forgot this in the rule set currently out, this was always
        understood by those of us that used the rule.
        Admittedly I've been playing the game since version 2.0 so I have seen alot
        of these rules evolve.
        MAybe I'll win the Lottery someday and buy the rights for this from Harry
        and redo all the rules, form an island in the south pacific of course:)
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "fredrik_bonander" <fredrik_bonander@...>
        To: <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 1:44 PM
        Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: Another oilmystery


        > This does not answer the question.
        >
        > "13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)
        > ...
        > No more than 5 units can trace a path to the same oil resource.
        > Work out how many oil dependent units you want to flip face-up. Each
        > HQ-I counts as 2 units, each HQ-A counts as 3 and each aircraft that
        > takes 2 turns to build counts as half a unit. Divide the total by 5.
        > This is the minimum number of oil resources (whether from the current
        > turn or saved) that you must spend. This means that you can turn 2
        > units face-up for nothing (because 0.4 rounds to zero).
        >
        > If 3 or more units trace a path to the same oil resource, you must
        > spend that resource. This may mean that you will have to spend more
        > oil resources than the minimum number."
        >
        > These two passages in the rules states the problem. The first passage
        > does not forbid you from using oil that are isolated. You can use your
        > own controlled oil from anywhere on the map. The just calculate the
        > total amount and then removes the same amount of oil resources.
        >
        > The second passage is a rule of when a used oil resource have to be
        > used. This states that when three units have targeted the same oil
        > resource this resource have to be used.
        >
        > This gives the following gamey use of the rules. If for example Japan
        > have been cut of from NEI he can trace a supply path to the saved oil
        > in Japan. Since he have 10 oil resources he can flip up 40 ships (we
        > are playing with ships in flames which makes each ship count as a half
        > a unit). Thus, 4 ships draws their oil supply path to each oil
        > resource. However, when the oil should be paid you pay it by using the
        > isolated resources in NEI. Thus, if Japan have saved oil then an
        > isolation of NEI does not affect the Japaneese ability to flip up
        > their units.
        >
        > I would say that there are no other way of interpreting this by wif
        > standards unusually clear rule.
        >
        > On the other hand, it is a quite absurd effect, which makes it
        > reasonable to implement some kind of a house rule.
        >
        > How have this been ruled/played at WifCon?
        >
        > /Fredrik
        >
        > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, sajbalk@... wrote:
        >>
        >> With RAW oil and limited re-org, I think a thoughful reading of 13.5
        > will answer your questions.
        >>
        >> To turn units face up, they have to be able to trace an unlimited
        > supply path to a primary supply
        >> source for that unit. If the unit is oil dependent then it must
        > trace a similar path to an oil. Per the
        >> example, add up all the units tracing to an oil, then use the oil.
        > i.e. 1.2 oils goes to 1; 0.4 oil goes to 0.
        >>
        >> It is quite possible and a common tactic to break the supply line to
        > the NEI oil wells.
        >>
        >> Steve Balk
        >> Iowa, USA
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: lars@...
        >> To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        >> Sent: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 8:49 AM
        >> Subject: [wifdiscussion] Another oilmystery
        >>
        >>
        >> Our group in Linkoping, Sweden discovered another myster yesterday
        >> about the isolated oil in NEI. The two oilwells are occupied by
        >> Japanese units, but they are cut of completely by all means. The wells
        >> still produce one oil each.
        >>
        >> In the final organization step, the Japanese player then sum up all
        >> cost for oildependent units. Since he did not trace enough units to
        >> any specific saved oil in Japan (just two "units" to each), the rule
        >> states that you can use any oil - so he used the two isolated ones
        > in NEI!
        >>
        >> We could not find anything in the rules that prevented this. Common
        >> sense say that they are isolated, but somehow, secret rowboats managed
        >> to pull oil out, barrel by barrel to fill the ships in Japan.
        >>
        >> Any comments to this? Any rule to prevent this?
        >>
        >> Please, help us, this is very frustrating as it just become almost
        >> impossible in future games to cut the oilsupply to Japan as long as he
        >> stuff the oilsites with lots of troops - no need anylonger to try and
        >> transport them back to Japan in the later stage of the game. Just hold
        >> on to the hex and you can flip up units anywere...
        >>
        >> Molle
        >>
        >>
        >>
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