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RE: [wifdiscussion] Re: naval air combat volontary abort (was: naval strategy)

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  • William Popovich
    By the rules, they do not. So as I enjoy naval combat as is. I don’t want a combat to end when Italy has 10 air units in a sea zone and voluntarily aborts
    Message 1 of 80 , May 1, 2005
      By the rules, they do not. So as I enjoy naval combat as is. I don’t
      want a combat to end when Italy has 10 air units in a sea zone and
      voluntarily aborts because of an unfavorable roll, or to send out more
      FTRs next impulse.

      Bill P

      -----Original Message-----
      From: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paulderynck
      Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:49 PM
      To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: naval air combat volontary abort (was:
      naval strategy)

      Sorry Bill, I can't figure out from your comment whether or not you
      think the planes should be flipped if they voluntarilly abort to the
      sea zone?

      Regards,
      Paul

      --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, William Popovich <popo1@o...>
      wrote:
      > What is changed is the rule, if you choose not to follow it. Perhaps
      the
      > land rule is the exception to the sea one…..:-)
      >
      > Bill P
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tilman Walk
      > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:16 PM
      > To: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [wifdiscussion] Re: naval air combat volontary abort (was:
      > naval strategy)
      >
      > But land based planes aborting a combat voluntarily at land or
      > involuntarily
      > at sea would be flipped, I don't think this should be changed, simply
      > they
      > do not abort to a land hex but to a seabox if aborting voluntarily in
      a
      > naval air...
      >
      > Tilman
      > >
      > >
      > > Another contributing line of logic to them not flipping is that you
      > > only flip in a sea zone if you use the unit to initiate search.
      There
      > > is no other mechanism in Naval Air combat to flip a unit.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Paul
      > >
      > > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert Gratz"
      > > <Herbert.Gratz@o...> wrote:
      > > > Right.
      > > >
      > > > >>> mattias.roman@c... 25.04.2005 16:02:30 >>>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, RG1066@a... wrote:
      > > > > I just noticed that this doesn't say you don't apply an A result

      > > > to Naval Air
      > > > > voluntary aborts it says they return to the sea box. Does this
      > > > mean they
      > > > > should all be flipped? Does anyone play it that way? I know my

      > > > group doesn't
      > > > > but maybe we are wrong.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rich Gause
      > > >
      > > > Argh, this is actually unclear. We play that they all flip, but I
      > > > see now that we might be wrong. From §14.3.2:
      > > >
      > > > "If you decide to voluntarily abort the air-to-air combat, apply
      > > > an `A' result (see 14.3.3) to every aircraft and carrier plane
      unit
      > > > you have in the combat (exception: in naval air combats, you
      return
      > > > aircraft and carrier plane units that voluntarily abort to the
      sea-
      > > > box section they started from)."
      > > >
      > > > It is unclear if the *exception* pertains only to the "return to
      > sea-
      > > > box" part or to the entire abort rule. Since a literal reading of
      > > > the above would suggest the latter, that would be RAW. Meaning
      they
      > > > don't flip. Right?
      > > >
      > > > /Mattias
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Tilman Walk
      > Germany
      >
      > +++ Sparen beginnt mit GMX DSL: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
      >
      >
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    • sskroughriders
      The crux of this argument is that little exception part. However, I don t think that the paragraph quoted below should be the focus, I believe the focus
      Message 80 of 80 , May 2, 2005
        The crux of this argument is that little "exception" part. However,
        I don't think that the paragraph quoted below should be the focus, I
        believe the focus should be on the paragraph describing the results
        of a an "A":

        AA The player rolling the dice chooses whether to abort the
        opposing front bomber or front fighter. The owning player must
        return the chosen unit to any friendly controlled hex within range
        (see 11.3) (or, for a carrier plane, to the sea-box section from
        which it started). Turn an aborted aircraft unit (and any unit being
        air-transported by it) face-down. If a carrier plane was flying in a
        naval air combat, it remains as it was, either face-up or face-down.
        In any other case, you would also turn a carrier plane face-down.

        I believe it is clear (and universally excepted) that aborted
        aircraft over land all turn face-down upon "landing", carrier planes
        included. Even if the CVP was on a CV and participated in air to
        air combat over land, it would turn face down upon returning to the
        carrier.

        As far as I read it, land-based aircraft *STILL TURN FACE DOWN* when
        aborting from an air-to-air combat in a sea zone. The "exception"
        statement only overrides the sentence that the plane
        must "return ... to any friendly controlled hex within range". The
        exception to this exception is CVP's participating in a Naval Air
        combat, which always return their flipped state regardless of
        whether they aborted or not. This also brings up the interest point
        that a CVP that was face-up at the beginning of a Naval Air combat
        remains face-up even if it was aborted (INvoluntarily) through
        combat. Interesting...

        --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, Mattias Román
        <mattias.roman@c...> wrote:
        > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "paulderynck"
        <pderynck@s...>
        > wrote:
        > > Anyway, it seems the majority on the list feel the planes can
        stay
        > > face-up on a voluntary abort to the Sea Zone. Which rule
        reference
        > can
        > > you cite that is definitive?
        >
        > Definitive or not, this is what we've got:
        >
        > §14.3.2
        > If you decide to voluntarily abort the air-to-air combat, apply an
        `A'
        > result (see 14.3.3) to every aircraft and carrier plane unit you
        have
        > in the combat (exception: in naval air combats, you return
        aircraft
        > and carrier plane units that voluntarily abort to the sea-box
        section
        > they started from).
        >
        > /Mattias
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