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Re: Rules Q. US sourced aircraft

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  • christian_cederberg@hotmail.com
    From RAW 6.01 Foreign aircraft Some aircraft units have coloured horizontal stripes matching another major power s colour. Don t add these aircraft to your
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2000
      From RAW 6.01

      Foreign aircraft

      Some aircraft units have coloured horizontal stripes matching another
      major power's colour.

      Don't add these aircraft to your force pools when they enter the
      game. Put them into the lend-lease pool instead.

      At any time (including at set up), you can move a striped aircraft
      from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
      the source major power agrees;
      and an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the
      source major power's force pool or its reserve pool. Move that other
      aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the lend-lease pool.
      The source major power can reverse this process any time the striped
      aircraft is in the force pools or reserve pool. Move it back to the
      lend lease pool and move the matching aircraft to the source major
      power's force pool.

      So you don't need to take any lend-lease options to build foreign
      sourced planes.
      The WifZen is that France or CW buys these planes using their own
      build points from US factories. They haven't got any lend-lease yet,
      since the required options hasn't been taken.
      Actually the most effective fighter plane in the French inventory
      (in terms of shot down German planes) was the lowly P-36 Mohawk.
      A large shipment of P-40 Warhawks meant for France, was diverted
      to CW after the fall of France, where they were used in Egypt.
      All this a year before the Lend-Lease bill of 1941.

      Regards, Christian Cederberg
      --- In wifdiscussion@egroups.com, "Carl Alex Friis Nielsen"
      <carl@i...> wrote:
      > If you don't play with the LiF US entry options does
      > it then require choosing any entry options in order
      > to give the US sourced aircraft to the CW or the USSR ?
      >
      > After all they are called Lend-Lease aircraft, so requirering
      > selecting the proper Lend-Lease entry option doesn't seem
      > too wierd to me.
      >
      > In a current game (without the LiF options) the US wants to
      > give the US sourced aircraft to anybody except the Chinese in
      > S/O 1939 - to me that simply doesn't feel right.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Carl
    • Juha Jansson
      ... From: William Popovich ... Officially, no... but Mike Aein _has_ modified them (unofficially) for the DOD3 playtest
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2000
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "William Popovich" <popo1@...>

        <snip>

        > And the costs have not been adjusted for the latest rules set.
        >
        > Bill Popovich

        Officially, no... but Mike Aein _has_ modified them (unofficially) for the
        DOD3 playtest rules. At least DOD3 _is_ an ADG product... so I consider it
        semi-official. :-)

        --Juha
      • William Popovich
        Even if you do play with the LIF options, the US never is required to select this option to give LL planes to anyone. The only thing the option does is let the
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2000
          Even if you do play with the LIF options, the US never is required to select
          this option to give LL planes to anyone. The only thing the option does is
          let the US put the planes into the other countries' future and current pools
          as the US sees fit.

          This does four things.

          It forces everyone to take the planes the US wishes to give.

          It makes sure the US does not accidentally produce a plane it does not want
          which may be lend-leased, FREX by advance building

          It makes sure that these units are IN the other countries' force pools for
          advance building

          It makes sure the US has smaller pools when it advance builds.

          But the rule is NEVER required to use the LL rules as written.

          And the costs have not been adjusted for the latest rules set.

          Bill Popovich
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Carl Alex Friis Nielsen <carl@...>
          To: <wifdiscussion@egroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:01 AM
          Subject: [wifdiscussion] Rules Q. US sourced aircraft


          > If you don't play with the LiF US entry options does
          > it then require choosing any entry options in order
          > to give the US sourced aircraft to the CW or the USSR ?
          >
          > After all they are called Lend-Lease aircraft, so requirering
          > selecting the proper Lend-Lease entry option doesn't seem
          > too wierd to me.
          >
          > In a current game (without the LiF options) the US wants to
          > give the US sourced aircraft to anybody except the Chinese in
          > S/O 1939 - to me that simply doesn't feel right.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Carl
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > wifdiscussion-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com
          It also enables to put the worst planes from the US pool into the LL pool and put a better plane from the LL pool into an allied future force pool. Example :
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
            It also enables to put the worst planes from the US pool into the LL pool
            and put a better plane from the LL pool into an allied future force pool.

            Example :
            The US put the 1943 P-51D (7 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 12 range)
            Mustang into the lend lease pool.
            The UK gets the 1944 P-51D (8 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 1
            strategic, 12 range) Mustang from the lend lease pool.

            Gilles


            Bill Popovich wrote :

            Even if you do play with the LIF options, the US never is required to select
            this option to give LL planes to anyone. The only thing the option does is
            let the US put the planes into the other countries' future and current pools
            as the US sees fit.

            This does four things.

            It forces everyone to take the planes the US wishes to give.

            It makes sure the US does not accidentally produce a plane it does not want
            which may be lend-leased, FREX by advance building

            It makes sure that these units are IN the other countries' force pools for
            advance building

            It makes sure the US has smaller pools when it advance builds.
          • Gudmundur Steinar Jonsson
            I allways though they had to be same type, same year and with teh exception of the Ju-88A1 the italians get the same value that Ju-88 is really bad the germans
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
              I allways though they had to be same type, same year and with teh exception of
              the Ju-88A1 the italians get the same value


              that Ju-88 is really bad the germans give up a LND3 with 3 tac and the italians
              get a LND3 with 5 tac. There is no reason at all for the germans NOT to give
              that plane to the italians.

              gsj


              gilles.delabrouille@... schrieb:

              > It also enables to put the worst planes from the US pool into the LL pool
              > and put a better plane from the LL pool into an allied future force pool.
              >
              > Example :
              > The US put the 1943 P-51D (7 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 12 range)
              > Mustang into the lend lease pool.
              > The UK gets the 1944 P-51D (8 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 1
              > strategic, 12 range) Mustang from the lend lease pool.
              >
              > Gilles
            • christian_cederberg@hotmail.com
              The little quirk with the Italian plane is because the German JU88A1 was reduced from 5 tac to 3 tac in PiF Gold. Harry just forgot to reduce the Italian LL
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                The little quirk with the Italian plane is because the German
                JU88A1 was reduced from 5 tac to 3 tac in PiF Gold. Harry
                just forgot to reduce the Italian LL plane too.
                It's a great trick to get better planes by LL them.
                The US can also LL an P-47 7-2-0-0-8 to CW, where
                it becomes 7-3tb-1-1-8. Excellent plane

                Regards, Christian Cederberg

                > It does not say anything about the need to have the same
                availability year
                >
                > Gilles
                >
                >
                > Gudmundur wrote :
                >
                >
                > I always though they had to be same type, same year and with the
                > exception of the Ju-88A1 the italians get the same value
                >
                >
                > that Ju-88 is really bad the germans give up a LND3 with 3 tac and
                the
                > italians
                > get a LND3 with 5 tac. There is no reason at all for the germans
                NOT to give
                > that plane to the italians.
                >
                > gsj
                >
                >
              • gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com
                Foreign aircraft Some aircraft units have colored horizontal stripes matching another major power s color. Don t add these aircraft to your force pools when
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                  Foreign aircraft
                  Some aircraft units have colored horizontal stripes matching another major
                  power's color.
                  Don't add these aircraft to your force pools when they enter the game. Put
                  them into the lend-lease pool instead.
                  At any time (including at set up), you can move a striped aircraft from the
                  lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
                  * the source major power agrees; and
                  * an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the
                  source major power's force pool or its reserve pool.
                  Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the
                  lend-lease pool.

                  (From RAW 6)

                  It does not say anything about the need to have the same availability year

                  Gilles


                  Gudmundur wrote :


                  I always though they had to be same type, same year and with teh exception
                  of
                  the Ju-88A1 the italians get the same value


                  that Ju-88 is really bad the germans give up a LND3 with 3 tac and the
                  italians
                  get a LND3 with 5 tac. There is no reason at all for the germans NOT to give
                  that plane to the italians.

                  gsj


                  gilles.delabrouille@... schrieb:

                  > It also enables to put the worst planes from the US pool into the LL pool
                  > and put a better plane from the LL pool into an allied future force pool.
                  >
                  > Example :
                  > The US put the 1943 P-51D (7 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 12
                  range)
                  > Mustang into the lend lease pool.
                  > The UK gets the 1944 P-51D (8 air to air, 1 air to sea, 3 tactical, 1
                  > strategic, 12 range) Mustang from the lend lease pool.
                  >
                  > Gilles
                • Juha Jansson
                  ... From: ... What consists the term designation ? Is it the aircraft name (FREX Mohawk ) or the model number (FREX
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <gilles.delabrouille@...>


                    > Foreign aircraft
                    > Some aircraft units have colored horizontal stripes matching another major
                    > power's color.
                    > Don't add these aircraft to your force pools when they enter the game. Put
                    > them into the lend-lease pool instead.
                    > At any time (including at set up), you can move a striped aircraft from the
                    > lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
                    > * the source major power agrees; and
                    > * an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the
                    > source major power's force pool or its reserve pool.
                    > Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the
                    > lend-lease pool.
                    >
                    > (From RAW 6)
                    >
                    > It does not say anything about the need to have the same availability year
                    >
                    > Gilles

                    What consists the term "designation"? Is it the aircraft name (FREX "Mohawk")
                    or the model number (FREX "P-36A"), or a combination of both?

                    If both were required, the USA couldn't lend lease FREX the Mohawk to the
                    French - the French plane says "Hawk 75A" instead of Mohawk. But it's the same
                    plane alright.

                    So I guess it must be the model number that counts... anybody disagree?

                    --Juha
                  • Gudmundur Steinar Jonsson
                    The way I have done it is get all the planes i could be choosing first the one with the same model number and then similar name, then factors. gsj
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                      The way I have done it is get all the planes i could be choosing first the one
                      with the same model number and then similar name, then factors.

                      gsj

                      gilles.delabrouille@... schrieb:

                      > A simple way to avoid the issue :
                      > Have an insatiable glutton play the US, who'll tell the other players that
                      > they can dream of LL planes all they want but will never get a single one of
                      > them...
                      >
                      > I have always played that the designation is the model number (P-51 Z) and
                      > not the pet name (Mustang, or possibly Z-Lucastang)
                      >
                      > Gilles
                      >
                      > Juha wrote :
                      >
                      > What consists the term "designation"? Is it the aircraft name (FREX
                      > "Mohawk")
                      > or the model number (FREX "P-36A"), or a combination of both?
                      >
                      > If both were required, the USA couldn't lend lease FREX the Mohawk to the
                      > French - the French plane says "Hawk 75A" instead of Mohawk. But it's the
                      > same
                      > plane alright.
                      >
                      > So I guess it must be the model number that counts... anybody disagree?
                      >
                      > --Juha
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > wifdiscussion-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    • gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com
                      A simple way to avoid the issue : Have an insatiable glutton play the US, who ll tell the other players that they can dream of LL planes all they want but will
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                        A simple way to avoid the issue :
                        Have an insatiable glutton play the US, who'll tell the other players that
                        they can dream of LL planes all they want but will never get a single one of
                        them...

                        I have always played that the designation is the model number (P-51 Z) and
                        not the pet name (Mustang, or possibly Z-Lucastang)

                        Gilles


                        Juha wrote :

                        What consists the term "designation"? Is it the aircraft name (FREX
                        "Mohawk")
                        or the model number (FREX "P-36A"), or a combination of both?

                        If both were required, the USA couldn't lend lease FREX the Mohawk to the
                        French - the French plane says "Hawk 75A" instead of Mohawk. But it's the
                        same
                        plane alright.

                        So I guess it must be the model number that counts... anybody disagree?

                        --Juha
                      • Hannes Weilert
                        gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com wrote: snip ... Making an exception for the 1939 (US)A-20A /(CW/FR)DB-7 Boston I , I suppose? Hannes
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                          gilles.delabrouille@... wrote:
                          snip
                          > I have always played that the designation is the model number (P-51 Z) and
                          > not the pet name (Mustang, or possibly Z-Lucastang)
                          >
                          > Gilles
                          >

                          Making an exception for the 1939 (US)A-20A /(CW/FR)DB-7 "Boston I", I
                          suppose?

                          Hannes
                        • gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com
                          Well yes I suppose. If all else fails you can compare the drawings under a microscope to check whether they are the same or not... Gilles ... De: Hannes
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 2, 2000
                            Well yes I suppose. If all else fails you can compare the drawings under a
                            microscope to check whether they are the same or not...

                            Gilles

                            -----Message d'origine-----
                            De: Hannes Weilert [mailto:Hannes_Weilert@...-hamburg.de]
                            Date: jeudi 2 novembre 2000 18:48
                            À: wifdiscussion@egroups.com
                            Objet: Re: [wifdiscussion] Rules Q. US sourced aircraft

                            gilles.delabrouille@... wrote:
                            snip
                            > I have always played that the designation is the model number (P-51 Z) and
                            > not the pet name (Mustang, or possibly Z-Lucastang)
                            >
                            > Gilles
                            >

                            Making an exception for the 1939 (US)A-20A /(CW/FR)DB-7 "Boston I", I
                            suppose?

                            Hannes
                          • craftybstd@aol.com
                            In a message dated 11/3/00 2:02:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Larry has put together a chart showing what all lendleased aircraft go with which US sourced
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 3, 2000
                              In a message dated 11/3/00 2:02:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              gilles.delabrouille@... writes:

                              > Well yes I suppose. If all else fails you can compare the drawings under a
                              > microscope to check whether they are the same or not...
                              >
                              > Gilles
                              >
                              Larry has put together a chart showing what all lendleased aircraft go with
                              which US sourced aircraft. It's very useful, and clears up any confusion
                              (especially since the confusion results from the rules not being 100% correct
                              in the explanation.) Anybody interested in said chart can try emailing Larry
                              (fmf@...) for copies - although I expect it to be included in an
                              LoC/Annual coming soon.

                              Russ Craft
                            • Frank Skog
                              A really sweet counter enhancement to future printings would be to print an L on the back of any aircraft that could be LL d to another power. ... drawings
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 3, 2000
                                A really sweet counter enhancement to future printings would be to
                                print an "L" on the back of any aircraft that could be LL'd to
                                another power.

                                --- In wifdiscussion@egroups.com, craftybstd@a... wrote:
                                > In a message dated 11/3/00 2:02:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                > gilles.delabrouille@a... writes:
                                >
                                > > Well yes I suppose. If all else fails you can compare the
                                drawings under a
                                > > microscope to check whether they are the same or not...
                                > >
                                > > Gilles
                                > >
                                > Larry has put together a chart showing what all lendleased aircraft
                                go with
                                > which US sourced aircraft. It's very useful, and clears up any
                                confusion
                                > (especially since the confusion results from the rules not being
                                100% correct
                                > in the explanation.) Anybody interested in said chart can try
                                emailing Larry
                                > (fmf@p...) for copies - although I expect it to be included in an
                                > LoC/Annual coming soon.
                                >
                                > Russ Craft
                              • Gudmundur Steinar Jonsson
                                ... FRANK.. if we are ever in the same city I want to buy you a beer. At long last an Idea that NOBODY (except the printer but we pay him to agree) will
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 4, 2000
                                  Frank Skog schrieb:

                                  > A really sweet counter enhancement to future printings would be to
                                  > print an "L" on the back of any aircraft that could be LL'd to
                                  > another power.

                                  FRANK.. if we are ever in the same city I want to buy you a beer. At long
                                  last an Idea that NOBODY (except the printer but we pay him to agree)
                                  will disagree with!!

                                  gsj
                                • Juha Jansson
                                  ... From: Gudmundur Steinar Jonsson ... I second that motion! I m considering playing the US entry option of US sells
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 4, 2000
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Gudmundur Steinar Jonsson" <gudmund@...-freiberg.de>

                                    > Frank Skog schrieb:
                                    >
                                    > > A really sweet counter enhancement to future printings would be to
                                    > > print an "L" on the back of any aircraft that could be LL'd to
                                    > > another power.
                                    >
                                    > FRANK.. if we are ever in the same city I want to buy you a beer. At long
                                    > last an Idea that NOBODY (except the printer but we pay him to agree)
                                    > will disagree with!!
                                    >
                                    > gsj

                                    I second that motion! I'm considering playing the US entry option of "US sells
                                    licenses..." after the France has fallen, and seeing what to lend lease took
                                    me initially one evening... and another to see _to whom_.

                                    --Juha
                                  • gilles.delabrouille@airliquide.com
                                    So that there could be the names of the countries that the plane can be lend leased to instead of the L : Ch, Ru, Fr, CW, US, It. I don t know on the other
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 5, 2000
                                      So that there could be the names of the countries that the plane can be lend
                                      leased to instead of the L :
                                      Ch, Ru, Fr, CW, US, It. I don't know on the other hand whether it might not
                                      get somewhat crowded on the back of the counter if the names of 4 countries
                                      are to be written (is there a plane that can be leased to Ch, Ru, Fr or the
                                      CW ?)
                                      The counters list on Patrice Forno's site help with the Lend Lease issue...
                                      Anybody ready for the 2001 update with the lend leasable planes mark on the
                                      back of the counter? Then I'll skip the 2000 update...

                                      Gilles


                                      Frank, Gudmundur and Juha wrote :


                                      Frank Skog schrieb:

                                      A really sweet counter enhancement to future printings would be to
                                      print an "L" on the back of any aircraft that could be LL'd to
                                      another power.

                                      FRANK.. if we are ever in the same city I want to buy you a beer. At long
                                      last an Idea that NOBODY (except the printer but we pay him to agree)
                                      will disagree with!!

                                      gsj

                                      I second that motion! I'm considering playing the US entry option of "US
                                      sells
                                      licenses..." after the France has fallen, and seeing what to lend lease took
                                      me initially one evening... and another to see _to whom_.

                                      --Juha
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