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Re: [wifdiscussion] Cooperation and Surprise Questions

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  • William Popovich
    CW and FR will cooperate if CW liberates Paris. US forces will cooperate with both CW and FR, even though they don t cooperate with each other. No surprise if
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 1, 2012
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      CW and FR will cooperate if CW liberates Paris.
      US forces will cooperate with both CW and FR, even though they don't
      cooperate with each other.
      No surprise if any non-surprising units involved. (both GE and IT in a
      naval combat, or Italy providing ANY shore bombardment or ground support or
      land combat factors in an attack)
      You are wrong about the "1 german 1 Italian unit" triggering surprise. They
      would not be surprised by the Germans. They would not put down their guns
      because the Germans are interspersed with Italians.
      The rules are clear for naval, stating that if a combat involves "only"
      surprising/surprised units on one side there is surprise. From 15.1: If a
      port attack or a naval combat at sea *only* involves units controlled by
      major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on,
      the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.
      For other attacks, the rivers are ignored only by surprising units. Only
      surprising ground strikers get two rolls. Only surprising ground supporters
      are doubled. The notional rules are not as clear, but in all other
      instances where combat includes surprising and non-surprising units, you
      can do things - like intercept, which includes both surprising and
      non-surprising opponent's air.
      I will submit it to the rules group, for certainty, but I think you will be
      disappointed here (and should be :-))


      On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 2:16 AM, jsoaps2002 <sopermeister@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > I am in a game (WiF Classic) at the start of M/J 1941. Germany is about to
      > try Sealion with some Italian help. Italy brought some ships through
      > Gibraltor as CW and Italy are still not at war. Germany and Italy
      > incompletely conquered France rather than setting up Vichy.
      >
      > I want to confirm my reading of the cooperation rules that CW forces will
      > not cooperate with French forces the rest of the game since they are not
      > "Free French." Also, that US forces will cooperate when they enter the war
      > since these forces are decidely "non Vichy"
      >
      > Second, As Italy will be DOWing CW in this jump out for Sealion, I wanted
      > to clarify my understanding on the surprise impulse rules. Italy would have
      > surprise on CW and obviously Germany would not. If there is a joint
      > Italy/Germany action, such as a mixed forces sub attack on convoys, port
      > attack or invasion, do the surprise impulse bonuses apply?
      >
      > It would seem that 1 italian and 1 German unit invading Portsmith would
      > trigger the -1 notional unit strength for a surprise impulse, but I cannot
      > conclusively determine this from the text of the rules. Would a mixed naval
      > or air force trigger the surprise round rules for surprise points in a
      > naval combat or port attack?
      >
      > The CW player requested I get an outside opinion. :-) Any guifance is much
      > appreciated. Thank you.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William Popovich
      I got an answer from Harry on this one - the next version of the rules will be changed in a way that clarifies it: (Offered with Harry s permission) 15. 
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 1, 2012
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        I got an answer from Harry on this one - the next version of the rules
        will be changed in a way that clarifies it: (Offered with Harry's
        permission)

        15.  Surprise
        Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power
        declares war on  them, even if  they are already at war with someone
        else. However, they are not surprised by a  country they are
        currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units
        from a major power that has just declared war on them.

        Example:  Germany declares war on the  USSR in May/Jun 1941. Italy
        declares war on Russia in Jul/Aug 1941. A German unit is included in
        an Italian attack on Russian units. Those  Russian units are not
        surprised.

        Furthermore they are not surprised by units flying over, or starting
        this impulse in, a hex  controlled by a country at war with them last
        impulse.
        Example:  Continuing the previous example, Russian units are not
        surprised by Italian units that  begin the impulse  in (German
        controlled) Rumania.

        The effects of being surprised last only  for that impulse (the
        “surprise impulse”).

        regards
            harry


        On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 10:13 AM, William Popovich
        <popovichwilliam@...> wrote:

        >
        > CW and FR will cooperate if CW liberates Paris.
        > US forces will cooperate with both CW and FR, even though they don't cooperate with each other.
        > No surprise if any non-surprising units involved. (both GE and IT in a naval combat, or Italy providing ANY shore bombardment or ground support or land combat factors in an attack)
        > You are wrong about the "1 german 1 Italian unit" triggering surprise. They would not be surprised by the Germans. They would not put down their guns because the Germans are interspersed with Italians.
        > The rules are clear for naval, stating that if a combat involves "only" surprising/surprised units on one side there is surprise. From 15.1: If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.
        > For other attacks, the rivers are ignored only by surprising units. Only surprising ground strikers get two rolls. Only surprising ground supporters are doubled. The notional rules are not as clear, but in all other instances where combat includes surprising and non-surprising units, you can do things - like intercept, which includes both surprising and non-surprising opponent's air.
        > I will submit it to the rules group, for certainty, but I think you will be disappointed here (and should be :-))
        >
        >
        > On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 2:16 AM, jsoaps2002 <sopermeister@...> wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> I am in a game (WiF Classic) at the start of M/J 1941. Germany is about to try Sealion with some Italian help. Italy brought some ships through Gibraltor as CW and Italy are still not at war. Germany and Italy incompletely conquered France rather than setting up Vichy.
        >>
        >>
        >> I want to confirm my reading of the cooperation rules that CW forces will not cooperate with French forces the rest of the game since they are not "Free French." Also, that US forces will cooperate when they enter the war since these forces are decidely "non Vichy"
        >>
        >> Second, As Italy will be DOWing CW in this jump out for Sealion, I wanted to clarify my understanding on the surprise impulse rules. Italy would have surprise on CW and obviously Germany would not. If there is a joint Italy/Germany action, such as a mixed forces sub attack on convoys, port attack or invasion, do the surprise impulse bonuses apply?
        >>
        >> It would seem that 1 italian and 1 German unit invading Portsmith would trigger the -1 notional unit strength for a surprise impulse, but I cannot conclusively determine this from the text of the rules. Would a mixed naval or air force trigger the surprise round rules for surprise points in a naval combat or port attack?
        >>
        >> The CW player requested I get an outside opinion. :-) Any guifance is much appreciated. Thank you.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
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