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Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: major power liberation and RES and MIL units

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  • William Popovich
    By your answer, why would ANY MIL be returned to the force pools at all? (per the not Vichy for getting removed units back) Bill ... [Non-text portions of
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
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      By your answer, why would ANY MIL be returned to the force pools at all?
      (per the "not Vichy" for getting removed units back)

      Bill

      On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Paul <paul_wiffer@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > I see from Bill's reply that mine was not quite correct. But neither is
      > Bill's. So to "distill" the correct response from these first two attempts -
      > read on!
      >
      > Bill is right that RES units are not a separate pool. They all are removed
      > from the map upon Vichy creation and then are subject to removal in each
      > pool. (FREX: INF with other INF and GARR with other GARR). So with half,
      > round up, removed, it is possible you won't even get any RES units for Free
      > France, although likely there will be some. This is too bad because later
      > force pool additions are better units and you cannot scrap RES units as they
      > have no date on their backs. If you do have RES in the Free French force
      > pool, you can build them anytime and they appear in a city in the new FF
      > home country (although affected by the "one per turn" reinforcement rule for
      > incompletely conquered countries)
      >
      > But upon liberation France does not get any units back if Vichy was created
      > - per RAW:
      > "Liberation effects
      > Return half of the liberated country's units not currently in the game (by
      > type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France's if Vichy
      > was installed)."
      >
      > So the MIL that remain in the FF force pool may be built if their city hex
      > is retaken and reverted to FF. Actually, then only the Paris MIL for sure is
      > affected by liberation. Any others might be built even before Paris is
      > retaken. But of course, they have to first survive the halving when Vichy is
      > created so that they are available in the FF force pool (but must be set
      > aside until their city is once again French.)
      >
      >
      > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, William Popovich <popovichwilliam@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > A)RES units are placed once per game (or pre-game) for free, not again
      > when
      > > the country is liberated. RES units are not restored as half of RES
      > units,
      > > they are mixed with other units of each type when selecting randomly.
      > > B)Countries are liberated, hexes are reverted. Reverting a hex does not
      > > restore units to the force pools that were removed - only liberating the
      > > country does that, and then half by type are returned to the force pool
      > > (including RES units in the random selection by type). So, here's my
      > > interpretation:
      > > --Someone must liberate France by controlling Paris and liberating the
      > > country
      > > --At that point half the units go into the force pools. I'd say you must
      > > include all MIL units, and remove those you picked randomly which are not
      > > yet liberated until they are liberated, others never return.
      > > --You must include all hexes you control when you first liberate France.
      > > After that, hexes are reverted on a hex by hex basis by others, or by you
      > > when you control new hexes of France
      > > C) As MIL are removed from the game when their city is not owned, and
      > > removed from the production spiral when their city is conquered, I'd say
      > > handle MIL as I suggest in B
      > >
      > > To me, the only unclear part is what happens to MIL for cities not yet
      > > liberated, or how exactly you return half of MIL and what happens to
      > units
      > > for the cities not yet liberated, and I suggest that it be handled as
      > above.
      > >
      > > Bill P
      > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 8:37 AM, texasmich_1999 <texasmich_1999@...>wrote:
      >
      >
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I am wondering about RES units and MIL units when a country gets
      > liberated.
      > > > For example France.
      > > >
      > > > A. Do the RES units show up next turn as the country is at war or were
      > they
      > > > excluded from the pick 1/2 and remove in order for them to be available
      > to
      > > > be built?
      > > >
      > > > B. Can French cities be individually liberated and then have MIL units
      > be
      > > > placed when constructed.
      > > >
      > > > C. Could MIL be built by Free France for future placement?
      > > >
      > > > The rules are not to clear on what occurs.
      > > > thanks
      > > > Sam
      > > >
      > > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul
      Because 17.3 under Vichy creation says: Now, place in the force pools all French controlled `Res and `Mil units and half their other land and aircraft units
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
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        Because 17.3 under Vichy creation says:
        "Now, place in the force pools all French controlled `Res' and `Mil' units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France".

        If the MIL is not presently in the game (FREX: the Metz MIL) then it stays removed.

        So any that survive the halving process are then in the FF force pool.

        And 4.2 says:
        "If you lose control of the city or port, then whenever the unit is in the force pool, remove it from the game instead. If you retake the city, put the unit back in your force pool. If it could arrive but the city or port is fully stacked, put the MIL unit back onto the production circle to arrive next turn (exception: option 15)"

        So for sure the ones in the FF force pool can come back when their city is retaken. AAMOF, if present in the force pool and the CW still holds Bordeaux and reverts it, then that MIL could come back within a couple turns.

        What may be arguable is whether the MIL that were taken away due to halving can come back when their city is retaken. We play the special rules for Vichy creation override the general rule and they remain out of the game. If they weren't in the force pool when halving was done (again FREX: the Metz MIL) then I would say they can come back.


        --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, William Popovich <popovichwilliam@...> wrote:
        >
        > By your answer, why would ANY MIL be returned to the force pools at all?
        > (per the "not Vichy" for getting removed units back)
        >
        > Bill
        >
        > On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Paul <paul_wiffer@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > I see from Bill's reply that mine was not quite correct. But neither is
        > > Bill's. So to "distill" the correct response from these first two attempts -
        > > read on!
        > >
        > > Bill is right that RES units are not a separate pool. They all are removed
        > > from the map upon Vichy creation and then are subject to removal in each
        > > pool. (FREX: INF with other INF and GARR with other GARR). So with half,
        > > round up, removed, it is possible you won't even get any RES units for Free
        > > France, although likely there will be some. This is too bad because later
        > > force pool additions are better units and you cannot scrap RES units as they
        > > have no date on their backs. If you do have RES in the Free French force
        > > pool, you can build them anytime and they appear in a city in the new FF
        > > home country (although affected by the "one per turn" reinforcement rule for
        > > incompletely conquered countries)
        > >
        > > But upon liberation France does not get any units back if Vichy was created
        > > - per RAW:
        > > "Liberation effects
        > > Return half of the liberated country's units not currently in the game (by
        > > type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France's if Vichy
        > > was installed)."
        > >
        > > So the MIL that remain in the FF force pool may be built if their city hex
        > > is retaken and reverted to FF. Actually, then only the Paris MIL for sure is
        > > affected by liberation. Any others might be built even before Paris is
        > > retaken. But of course, they have to first survive the halving when Vichy is
        > > created so that they are available in the FF force pool (but must be set
        > > aside until their city is once again French.)
        > >>
      • texasmich_1999
        thanks, that clears things up. sam
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1, 2011
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          thanks,
          that clears things up.

          sam

          --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paul_wiffer@...> wrote:
          >
          > I see from Bill's reply that mine was not quite correct. But neither is Bill's. So to "distill" the correct response from these first two attempts - read on!
          >
          > Bill is right that RES units are not a separate pool. They all are removed from the map upon Vichy creation and then are subject to removal in each pool. (FREX: INF with other INF and GARR with other GARR). So with half, round up, removed, it is possible you won't even get any RES units for Free France, although likely there will be some. This is too bad because later force pool additions are better units and you cannot scrap RES units as they have no date on their backs. If you do have RES in the Free French force pool, you can build them anytime and they appear in a city in the new FF home country (although affected by the "one per turn" reinforcement rule for incompletely conquered countries)
          >
          > But upon liberation France does not get any units back if Vichy was created - per RAW:
          > "Liberation effects
          > Return half of the liberated country's units not currently in the game (by type, rounding fractions up) to its force pools (except France's if Vichy was installed)."
          >
          > So the MIL that remain in the FF force pool may be built if their city hex is retaken and reverted to FF. Actually, then only the Paris MIL for sure is affected by liberation. Any others might be built even before Paris is retaken. But of course, they have to first survive the halving when Vichy is created so that they are available in the FF force pool (but must be set aside until their city is once again French.)
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, William Popovich <popovichwilliam@> wrote:
          > >
          > > A)RES units are placed once per game (or pre-game) for free, not again when
          > > the country is liberated. RES units are not restored as half of RES units,
          > > they are mixed with other units of each type when selecting randomly.
          > > B)Countries are liberated, hexes are reverted. Reverting a hex does not
          > > restore units to the force pools that were removed - only liberating the
          > > country does that, and then half by type are returned to the force pool
          > > (including RES units in the random selection by type). So, here's my
          > > interpretation:
          > > --Someone must liberate France by controlling Paris and liberating the
          > > country
          > > --At that point half the units go into the force pools. I'd say you must
          > > include all MIL units, and remove those you picked randomly which are not
          > > yet liberated until they are liberated, others never return.
          > > --You must include all hexes you control when you first liberate France.
          > > After that, hexes are reverted on a hex by hex basis by others, or by you
          > > when you control new hexes of France
          > > C) As MIL are removed from the game when their city is not owned, and
          > > removed from the production spiral when their city is conquered, I'd say
          > > handle MIL as I suggest in B
          > >
          > > To me, the only unclear part is what happens to MIL for cities not yet
          > > liberated, or how exactly you return half of MIL and what happens to units
          > > for the cities not yet liberated, and I suggest that it be handled as above.
          > >
          > > Bill P
          > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 8:37 AM, texasmich_1999 <texasmich_1999@>wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I am wondering about RES units and MIL units when a country gets liberated.
          > > > For example France.
          > > >
          > > > A. Do the RES units show up next turn as the country is at war or were they
          > > > excluded from the pick 1/2 and remove in order for them to be available to
          > > > be built?
          > > >
          > > > B. Can French cities be individually liberated and then have MIL units be
          > > > placed when constructed.
          > > >
          > > > C. Could MIL be built by Free France for future placement?
          > > >
          > > > The rules are not to clear on what occurs.
          > > > thanks
          > > > Sam
          > > >
          > > >
          >
        • bigm82ab@aol.com
          All Anyone up for a game? Thanks Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 4, 2011
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            All

            Anyone up for a game?

            Thanks
            Mike


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Popovich
            Which scenario? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 4, 2011
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              Which scenario?

              On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:19 AM, <bigm82ab@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              >
              > All
              >
              > Anyone up for a game?
              >
              > Thanks
              > Mike
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bigm82ab@aol.com
              either but prefer 1948 ... From: William Popovich To: wifdiscussion Sent: Thu, Aug 4, 2011 2:24 pm
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 4, 2011
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                either but prefer 1948





                -----Original Message-----
                From: William Popovich <popovichwilliam@...>
                To: wifdiscussion <wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Aug 4, 2011 2:24 pm
                Subject: Re: [wifdiscussion] Cyberboard Patton in Flames Game?


                Which scenario?
                On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:19 AM, <bigm82ab@...> wrote:
                > **



                All

                Anyone up for a game?

                Thanks
                Mike

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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