Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
Skip to search.
 

Re: This isn't done very much, is it...

Expand Messages
  • alex Inglis
    I ve heard of people doing this before and thought about it once or twice myself. The biggest bonus to playing in the Causcus is out as you can t align turkey
    Message 1 of 55 , Jun 1, 2011
      I've heard of people doing this before and thought about it once or twice myself.

      The biggest bonus to playing in the Causcus is out as you can't align turkey any more. You can't get any of the oil out until you fight through Russia anyway. The terrain is very favourable to the defender so the Russian will be able to put weaker units down to hold you up and disrupt your supply the German/Italians would need 20 corps down there to maintain supply all the way to the Caspian sea to be able to cut off Russian oil which if the allies are on the ball they might be able to largely replace with northern route lend lease. The corps down there won't be as effective as they would be in open coutry at killing russians. So a large invasion of Georgia is probably not going to be cost effective.

      That all said the pluses are quite large. The Italian fleet sitting in the Black Sea can supply a lot of naval bombardment support and the threat of invasions all along the Black sea coast making the southern anchor point of the Russian line pretty weak. The Russians don't get a few useful units but nothing game breaking. The Italians get an excellent naval base on the Black sea and Eastern med allowing for a more effective Egypt campaign without having to DoW Greece (it is a lot easy to supply Egypt through only 1 sea zone) you probably would hope Syria is Vichy as the Italians would struggle to fight a war against the turks and russians to the north (but should be able to fight well in Egypt anyway).

      The loss of the surprise turn into Russia could be a factor to think about. Probably most of the planning on the operation would be designed to get the best outcome there ot to maximise US entry. It may be possible for the Italians to take Istanbul by themselves. It could also be an idea to stage invasions near Smyrna and Alexandretta where they could block key resources and rail lines tie up more allied units than they use themselves. Either way there isn't a lot of point to building much more Italian naval than normal, maybe some BBs for Naval gunfire support and maybe a little more transport.

      All in all it is worth thinking about.

      --- In wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "mkonig2000" <tonyde75@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey guys,
      >
      > So I was staring over my maps playing a solitaire Global War campaign, and my old man (who's a WWII history buff like myself) came by to see what's going on. He asked, why don't the Axis get into the Black Sea and transport a German army group from Rumania/Bulgaria to the Cacausus, if the oil there is so important?
      >
      > I explained that to get access to the Black Sea, you have to DOW Turkey and take Istanbul. You can't use German ships because they have no ports on the Black Sea and can't launch any newly built ships from Bulgaria/Rumania. The KM can't even get into the Med in the first place without a whole other campaign which we won't talk about. So you're limited to using the Italians, but you still have to take Istanbul to gain access to the Black Sea. And why hand over a neutral Turkey, with a relatively strong army, to the Allies?
      >
      > Then I thought about a gambit, so let me run it past the experts here:
      >
      > Given a Global War scenario with most options (LOS, O chits, partisans, all maps, divisions, CL, CVPs, PiF, SiF, AMPHs, OSB, DSB, etc.), and a standard German progression to 1941 (Poland, Belgium, Holland, Vichy France by M/J or J/A 40, maybe conquer Yugo to align the other Balkans), why not try and get into the Black Sea?
      >
      > I realize the Axis invading Turkey will cancel the Nazi/Soviet Pact, but can the Allies afford the US Entry hit of the USSR Declaring War on any of the Axis?
      >
      > This is what I imagine would have to happen: Italy has to become active early and remain entirely defensive for the time being, and Germany has to lend resources/BPs so Italy can finish her 4 BBs (2 in repair pool, 2 in construction), build at least 5 more TRS/AMPH, some NAV and FTR, maybe their PARA and MAR. By 1941, have a standard German setup in Eastern Europe, but have the German/Italian MAR and invadable divisions standing by in Bulgaria. DOW Turkey first, take Istanbul with some corps marching from Bulgaria. Next impulse DOW USSR and sail the Regia Marina with newly-built TRS and AMPH into the Black Sea, embark the MARs and whatever other units can embark onto Italian TRS and SCS, and invade at Novorossiysk or Sukumi.
      >
      > At the very least, the Russians have to divert troops from their Western Front down to counter that move, which makes whatever defensive line they have weaker against the main concentration of German forces on the Eastern Front (presumably in Poland). The Soviet can use some Turkish units for the Russian defense in that sector but not too many because the Axis can then push on over the Turkish straits with whatever odd units they have and go for the conquest of Turkey. All they would need to take is Istanbul and Ankara. As the Axis, I would stop at the European side of the Turkish straits but if the Turk sends too many units east, why not go in further?
      >
      > For this scenario to come true, the Axis would probably have to spend as long as possible in 1941 beating up on the CW; Malta and Egypt would have to be taken (Malta would have to be the major port you can base the RM out of to reach the Black Sea), Axis units would have to be in Syria (LOC Vichy anyone?) to threaten Turkey's southern flank (and align Iraq if not already conquered by Allies). And Italy would have to build for this strategy from turn 1 with loaned German BPs and resources (which, I understand, aren't necessarily in such abundance). Maybe it would be better with a 42 Barbarossa instead of 41, which gives the Axis more time to build more units and also hammer CW convoys and possibly conduct a strategic bombing campaign against CW factories. You can't ignore the CW completely or they will be invading Italy sooner than later.
      >
      > A NAV would have to cover the Italian fleet in the Black Sea to assist against the combined Soviet/Turkish fleet. Two long range Italian ATRs can drop the German/Italian PARAs based in Rumania or Bulgaria onto Sevastopol in conjunction with a land attack at some point, with shore bombardment from the RM's guns. But the big question would be, what mischief will the CW up to in the Western Med while the entire Italian fleet goes to the Black Sea for a turn or two?
      >
      > I realize this scenario could never have happened historically because:
      >
      > 1) It assumes a combat ability that the RM didn't demonstrate historically. Italian ships didn't even have radar until 1942, which was one of the reasons their fleet was mauled in night action at Matapan in 1941. And by 1942, their fleet movements were severely restricted because of a fuel shortage.
      >
      > 2) It assumes a level of strategic and economic cooperation between Germany and Italy that was nonexistent and probably impossible during the actual war for a variety of reasons.
      >
      > I also realize that a lot can go wrong with this gambit along the way, like Germany encountering horrible luck in France, losing too many corps and/or air units and taking too long to Vichy, or the CW getting a lucky port strike off on the Italian TRS fleet. But bad luck can derail any plan, I think that pretty much goes for any long term strategy.
      >
      > Sorry about the long post. Too much coffee. What do you guys think? Anyone ever tried anything like this? Or am I as much off my rocker as Mussolini was?
      >
      > Anthony DeChristopher
      >
    • William Popovich
      Not that easy - but the odds are good. I m famous for taking the Wile E Coyote high-risk, high reward, high punishment for failure strategy. But the reward is
      Message 55 of 55 , Jun 8, 2011
        Not that easy - but the odds are good. I'm famous for taking the Wile E
        Coyote high-risk, high reward, high punishment for failure strategy. But the
        reward is high for odds that give you all or nothing at a relatively equal
        rate, something I often take....

        On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Gratz, Herbert <herbert.gratz@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > Must be a cartoon - it sounds that easy ;-).
        >
        >
        > -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
        > Von: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com]
        > Im Auftrag von William Popovich
        > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 08. Juni 2011 13:42
        >
        > An: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > Betreff: Re: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This isn't
        > done very much, is it...
        >
        > Rum grants the borderlands, GE denies Hun/Bul claims, immediately DOW BUL
        > and occupy its resource/make path for Turkish resource, DOW Hungary as soon
        > as Poland falls and half those units move to HUN border. When done in HUN,
        > they move to BUL then to GREECE. Wait for Greece til Suez closed and
        > probably GIB as well, to keep any of the CP from escaping, then align YUGO,
        > before DOWing Russia.
        >
        > I am watching the movie. You are reading the novel.
        >
        > On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Gratz, Herbert <herbert.gratz@...
        > >wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would you get HUN +BUL?
        > >
        > > Anyway, little purpose to discussion as you are reading different novels.
        > > One with the other without oil. Incomparable.
        > >
        > > -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
        > > Von: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com]
        > > Im Auftrag von William Popovich
        > > Gesendet: Montag, 06. Juni 2011 19:53
        > > An: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > > Betreff: Re: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This
        > > isn't done very much, is it...
        > >
        > >
        > > It is also good for China, and therefore long run prevents the
        > > absolute BEST result for Japan, conquest of China, IMO.
        > > However, I don't normally play with oil - I can see how you'd think
        > > differently there as well.
        > >
        > > Russia - demand borderlands and Bess, get back resources soon for
        > > those 2 plus Hungary and Bulgaria. Net plus 4 resources.
        > > Take Persia and Iraq, plus 3 resources now.
        > > Lose Vlad and 2-4 resources (I don't concede that the one in front of
        > > Chita is lost, Russia has armor to take it back and better air
        > > overall) Starting production (with no oil) - 29/23 After these moves -
        > > 28/26 And the reserves
        > > - you don't even lose the Vlad unit because you don't put it on the
        > > map when Japan declares war - it is not removed from the game, and is
        > > placed when Vlad returns to your control.
        > > And the active status
        > > And the ability to come back and pound Japan through 41 if Germany
        > > does not attack then.
        > >
        > > And you cost Germany 4 resources early, more important than giving Japan
        > 4.
        > > And you can get LL from the CW and France as active without waiting
        > > for US activity, very important to a disciplined team.
        > > And you're ready to move into Turkey :-)
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:26 PM, IA-211-BZ <IA211@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi,
        > > >
        > > > We definitively have different strategic thinking.
        > > >
        > > > On a global production level, better to keep east siberia and its
        > > > factory and 4 ressources than to get 5 oil (depriving CW of one oil)
        > > > and give to japan 4 ressources and one red factory which is also an
        > > > objective. For russia it is
        > > >
        > > > balanced, you get an oil but loose a factory you cannot use due to
        > > > ressources given to germany, but for CW it is a bit bad and very
        > > > good for japan. In 1940, it is a +4 bp/turn for japan and a reorg
        > > > problem for the CW without a precious oil. No need for japan to go
        > > > further than chita, the extra bps will easily pay for additionnal
        > garrison.
        > > >
        > > > If I understand well, on the first turn, you attack persia, and ask
        > > > for bessarabia, then on turn 2 you attack irak, I guess you also
        > > > take east poland?
        > > > Well, if dice are against you, you just prevent USA to declare war
        > > > to germany/italia... (east poland: -7, persia and irak: -9 each, so
        > > > it is
        > > > -3 chits, the max starting chit in US pool) Finland cost also -18.
        > > >
        > > > In any case such a USE-dependant strategy delay a lot USE, in your
        > > > game, when did the US goes at war? It is not the USE cost of japan
        > > > declaring war against russia which is able to compensate. As CW/US
        > > > player I will not be very happy to see my russian going berserk this
        > > > way. The only game I accept it was because I managed to entice the
        > > > italian to declare war on me and I was more experienced than the
        > > > russian player and I wanted to help him strenghen his position.
        > > >
        > > > bye
        > > > Hubert
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > De : William Popovich <popovichwilliam@...> � :
        > >
        > > > wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 18h 01min
        > > > 08s Objet : Re: Re : Re : Re : Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This
        > > > isn't done very much, is it...
        > > >
        > > > No - you concede Eastern Siberia, make up the production with Persia
        > > > and Iraq, demand Bessarabia and borderlands as you get units to
        > > > those fronts, and keep enough in E Siberia to protect Chita, stay
        > > > active to gain all the benefits you tout for Russia being active
        > > > early but without Russia paying for it, (you are done with Persia
        > > > with 2 INF and a CAVDIV plus all the starting bombers (Zhukov sits
        > > > back and reorgs 2 ground striking planes) take out Persia on first
        > > > turn, if you get good enough weather to advance. Second turn, Zhukov
        > > > moves up to Iraq border with the 2 INF. THird turn they take out
        > > > Iraq. Only 3 corps are involved, you need very little to protect
        > > > Chita westward (you can even counterattack along the line from
        > > > Western Manchuria) It takes at least that long for Japan to line up
        > > > enough forces to make any meaningful move past the first 2 resources
        > and Vlad.
        > > > You take Bessarabia on turn 1. Who cares if you have to wait for
        > > > reinforcements to fight? Most Germans will concede it while the army
        > > > is blocked in Poland, and you force him to settle the territorial
        > > > demands earlier than he likes, giving you more of your hard-earned
        > > resources back.
        > > > Move the units up to Finland and set up for a summer demand of the
        > > > borderlands. Your TRS will be there. You will have 2 divs on SCS
        > > > when you DOW, making a beachhead in the rear. You will take as long
        > > > as you need to reinforce that beachhead with an HQ and more units,
        > > > flying in MTN corps as well as more DIVs. It doesn't take much -
        > > > there are not enough Finnish units to defend the front, and
        > > > Helsinki, on the first turn, and you have air superiority, though
        > > > you may lose a bomber with some bad luck. One unit on the
        > > > Scandinavian map (why aren't you using this, if you aren't? I can't
        > > > account for every odd combination of
        > > > rules....) But it should be used to keep from the "cheesy Finland"
        > > > (my vulnerable hexes disappeared because I choose to use a too-small
        > > > map) defense.....
        > > > The key to how much you push as Russia is where you are willing to
        > > > give to get more elsewhere. If you guard against losing a bit of
        > > > Siberia, you are only hurting China (because those first few turns
        > > > of non-attention from Japan can save China), and keeping you from
        > > > damaging Germany and taking the rest of what you need. Germany is
        > > > your big threat. Japan can be dealt with once you find out what year
        > > > Germany will attack - if they are not coming till 42 you can punish
        > > > Japan, if they are coming in 41 you can't protect all of Siberia
        > > > anyway.
        > > >
        > > > Bill
        > > >
        > > > No - you concede Eastern Siberia, make up the production with Persia
        > > > and
        > > > > Iraq, demand Bessarabia and borderlands as you get units to those
        > > > > fronts, and keep enough in E Siberia to protect Chita, stay active
        > > > > to gain all
        > > > the
        > > > > benefits you tout for Russia being active early but without Russia
        > > > > paying for it, (you are done with Persia and Ira
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM, IA-211-BZ <IA211@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >> In this case, what about bessarabia and siberia?
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Don't you think difficult to protect siberia while attacking
        > > > >> persia and having enough troops against rumania to ask for
        > bessarabia?
        > > > >> 2 land units for persia seems to me rather short, you can have 2
        > > > >> loss,
        > > > or
        > > > >> even 3
        > > > >> if playing 2d10.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> In my group, russia is paranoid about japanese attack.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> ________________________________
        > > > >> De : William Popovich <popovichwilliam@...> � :
        > >
        > > > >> wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 17h
        > > > >> 19min 14s Objet : Re: Re : Re : Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re:
        > > > >> This isn't done very much, is it...
        > > > >>
        > > > >> I prefer to take Persia on turn 1 or 2 with land units. You can
        > > > >> get a plus-nine and take a 1 or 3 BP loss in the attack if needed
        > > > >> then shift units to take the borderlands and Bessarabia - or go
        > > > >> on to Iraq.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> That's where I prefer to spend the chits others are itching to
        > > > >> use in a DOW by Russia on a major power.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Bill P
        > > > >>
        > > > >> On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 11:11 AM, IA-211-BZ <IA211@...> wrote:
        > > > >>
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > or prefer to take persia with these para...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > as med'41 is a classic, mandchouria is also a good spot for para.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > I've seen two finland war, in both case it was long and costly.
        > > > >> > The
        > > > >> first
        > > > >> > was
        > > > >> > not very well prepared, but the second was better prepared, and
        > > > >> well-timed
        > > > >> > with
        > > > >> > germany fighting in france, but the german managed to send
        > > > reinforcement
        > > > >> > due to
        > > > >> > peacekeeper rule, and the russian spend a long time taking the
        > > > country.
        > > > >> > good A2A dice for finland helps too.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > ________________________________ De :
        > > > >> > "popovichwilliam@..." <popovichwilliam@...> � :
        > >
        > > > >> > wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 17h
        > > > >> > 02min 19s Objet : Re: Re : Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This
        > > > >> > isn't done very
        > > > >> much,
        > > > >> > is
        > > > >> > it...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > Demand of FInland when using the scandinavian maps is more
        > > > >> > common. I suspect those who find conquest difficult don't build
        > > > >> > paras, don't
        > > > place
        > > > >> > the transport in the baltic, don't time the attack for spring.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > On Jun 6, 2011 10:53am, IA-211-BZ <IA211@...> wrote:
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Hi,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > In your case, with bulgaria and hungaria already aligned, and
        > > > >> yugoslavia
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > conquered, which allow germany to align rumania at will,
        > > > >> > > germany has little need
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > of extra ressource nor problem for aligning minors. I guess
        > > > >> > > that
        > > > your
        > > > >> > > german
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > player was afraid of a russian stuff, and so break the pact
        > > > >> > > as soon
        > > > as
        > > > >> > > possible.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > In your case the pact was to get 4 ressources for 2 bps,
        > > > >> > > which is
        > > > not
        > > > >> > very
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > interesting for germany as he has many spare ressources. As
        > > > >> > > you play
        > > > >> with
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > oil,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > does he build synth oil?
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > About finland, not every russian player ask for the borderlands.
        > > > >> Because
        > > > >> > > of
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > meteo and map, it is difficult and costly to conquer finland,
        > > > >> > > and it
        > > > >> cost
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > USE a
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > lot. In your case, if you do not ask for the border lands,
        > > > >> > > then
        > > > >> germany
        > > > >> > > can only
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > align finland if he declares war on you, and not if you
        > > > >> > > declare war
        > > > on
        > > > >> > > him.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Finland has a good army, a HQ, a mech, div, and all its
        > > > >> > > troops are winterized,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > so it is a huge bonus for germany in addition to its ressource.
        > > > >> > > Up
        > > > to
        > > > >> you
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > to see
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > if having your north secured and depriving germany of these
        > > > >> > > troops
        > > > >> values
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > the
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > USE cost.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Bye
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Hubert
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > ________________________________
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > De : Marc Gelabert mgelabertc@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > � : wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 16h 25min 27s
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Objet : Re: Re : Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This isn't done
        > > > >> > > very much,
        > > > >> is
        > > > >> > > it...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Hi,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Yes, we play with oil.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > France fell a little bit too early (early MJ40).
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Pact was broken after (not sure about the exact date)
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > I asked for Bess, not for Finland (that's another noob
        > > > >> > > question, I
        > > > see
        > > > >> > > that
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > asking for Finn borders seem a standard tactic, but I don't
        > > > >> > > see too
        > > > >> many
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > benefits on it, but that's another question).
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Rumania supported both HU and BU claims.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > GE dowed Yugo quite early. Aligned HU & BU.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Ooooh, that's another interesting question... RU dowing GE
        > > > >> > > can stop
        > > > GE
        > > > >> > > from
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > aligning minors? Interesting :) Not in my game, but
        > > > >> > > definitively
        > > > >> another
        > > > >> > > big
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > "pro".
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Marc
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > 011/6/6 IA-211-BZ IA211@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Hi,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Did you play an oil rule? I guess not, so the ressource
        > > > >> > > > side is
        > > > less
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > important.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > France fell juste before he broke the pact, isn't it? Did
        > > > >> > > > he give
        > > > a
        > > > >> lot
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > italy?
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Did you ask for bessarabia, and finland? Did the german
        > > > >> > > > support
        > > > >> > > hungarian
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > and
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > gulgarian land claims? What about yugoslavia?
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > If declaring war could have prevented germany from aligning
        > > > minors,
        > > > >> > > such as
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > finland or rumania, then it would have been wise to do it.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > bye
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Hubert
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > ________________________________
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > De : Marc Gelabert mgelabertc@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > � : wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 13h 42min 08s
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Objet : Re: Re : [wifdiscussion] Re: This isn't done very
        > > > >> > > > much, is
        > > > >> > it...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Thanks for the answers.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Certainly, I forgot to add the economical issue to the
        > > > >> > > > "pros and
        > > > >> > > contras"
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > list.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > That's very important too... but depends on the time.
        > > > >> > > > Dowing GE in
        > > > >> > > JF41, if
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > you think he's going to dow you in MA or MJ... doesn't make
        > > > >> > > > a big
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > difference. Dowing GE in JF40 for instance... can change
        > > > >> > > > lots of
        > > > >> > > things. So
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > it depends a lot on the game and the time when you can do
        > that.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > But anyway you're right, you can break the pact, get the
        > > > >> > > > economic
        > > > >> > > benefits
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > (with no US cost)... and not dow, or DOW when it's best for
        > you.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > The thing is that in my game GE broke the pact in late 40
        > > > >> > > > (if I
        > > > >> > remember
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > well), and dowed RU in MJ41.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > The reasons are not totally clear to me (he's reading this
        > > > >> > > > and can
        > > > >> > > answer
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > :p), but maybe the BP lost was not worthy the number of
        > > > >> > > > resources
        > > > >> > traded
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > (they go down while you align countries). The other reason
        > > > >> > > > (that's
        > > > >> my
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > assumption) was that he won't be unhappy if I dow GE and
        > > > >> > > > delay US
        > > > >> entry
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > a
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > few turns...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Marc
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > 2011/6/6 IA-211-BZ IA211@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Hi,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > You seemed to be balancing between war or not war, so you
        > > > >> > > > > seem
        > > > to
        > > > >> > > forget
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > another
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > possibility: simply break the pact.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > There are no USE penalty, and declaring war still cost to
        > > > germany
        > > > >> in
        > > > >> > > USE,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > but it
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > cost germany a lot in ressources and oil, more than USSR
        > > > >> > > > > in
        > > > build
        > > > >> > > points.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > If you
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > play with an oil rule, it is a major problem for germany.
        > > > >> > > > > You
        > > > can
        > > > >> > then
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > bring
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > your troops out of harm's way and wait for the german, or
        > > > declare
        > > > >> war
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > him to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > gain the related benefits.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > About declaring war, do not forget to take into account
        > > > >> > > > > the
        > > > balkan
        > > > >> > and
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > finland
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > situation. If germany suppor hungarian and bulgarian
        > > > >> > > > > claims,
        > > > >> germany
        > > > >> > > must
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > attack
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > yugoslavia or russia to align romania, so if your german
        > > > >> > > > > is
        > > > trying
        > > > >> to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > align
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > yugoslavia for example, declaring war to germany deny him
        > > > >> > > > > this
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > possibility.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Usually, in my games, if russia has the possibility to
        > > > >> > > > > break the
        > > > >> > > pact, it
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > is a
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > no-brainer unless he is stuffing to avoid � barb'41, but
        > > > >> > > > > the
        > > > >> german
        > > > >> > > never
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > let
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > the russian be able to do that.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > bye,
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Hubert
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > ________________________________
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > De : Marc Gelabert mgelabertc@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > � : wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Envoy� le : Lun 6 juin 2011, 12h 03min 17s
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Objet : Re: [wifdiscussion] Re: This isn't done very
        > > > >> > > > > much, is
        > > > >> it...
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > I have to say that I'ma noob, and I'm interested in all I
        > > > >> > > > > read
        > > > >> here.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > In my current game, I had the chance of Dowing GE as RU,
        > > > >> > > > > and I
        > > > >> didn't
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > do
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > it.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > The "pros" that I saw:
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > - No surprise impulse (the defense line just moved back
        > > > >> > > > > 6-7 hex
        > > > to
        > > > >> > the
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > rivers line, and surprise is not a real benefit)
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > - Reserves face up and in good position (that's a real
        > > > >> > > > > benefit)
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > - Catching GE unprepeared... but RU is not that prepeared
        > > > >> > > > > too
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Contras
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > - Cost in US terms (dowing and not being dowed)
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Is that beneficial for RU to DOW instead of waiting for
        > > > >> > > > > GE
        > > DOW?
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Sorry if the question is dumb.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > Marc
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > 2011/6/6 Gratz, Herbert herbert.gratz@...>
        > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > > If RU can break the pact any advantage you might dream
        > > > >> > > > > > of
        > > > >> accruing
        > > > >> > > to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > > conquest of Turkey is voided immediately by a RU DOW on
        > GE.
        > > > Its
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > something
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > > every RU dreams of: to 'own' the decision of where and
        > > > >> > > > > > when to
        > > > >> go
        > > > >> > to
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > war
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > > with GE.
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > ------------------------------------
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >> >
        > > > >>
        > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >>
        > > > >> ------------------------------------
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >>
        > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.