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Re: : [wifdiscussion] Pact garrisons

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  • Mike Ensele
    Wait, the Italian units teleport because they re in German controlled hexes within 3 hexes of the Soviet border if/when they become at war with the USSR? That
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2010
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      Wait, the Italian units teleport because they're in German controlled hexes
      within 3 hexes of the Soviet border if/when they become at war with the
      USSR? That doesn't sound right.

      My understanding is that if Italian units are at any point at war with the
      USSR and are in German controlled territory (assuming Germany/USSR are
      neutral), they provide carte blanche for the Soviets to end the pact at
      will, as a violation of the pact (having a belligerent nation near the
      border). This also applies if Italian air units then attack (tactical or
      strategic) the USSR, either taking off or landing into German controlled
      hexes. Same deal for Germany if the Allies somehow contrive to have British
      units (at war with Germany) near the border.

      If Italian (at war with USSR) units are in hexes within an Italian
      controlled Lithuania, there is no effect on garrison ratios or the
      Nazi-Soviet pact. They are within Italian controlled territory, and provide
      neither benefit to the Germans, nor provocation (per RAW) to the Soviets.
      The impulse after a single Italian land/air unit moves into German
      controlled territory within 3 hexes of the border, the Soviets can break the
      pact with no US entry, and without actually declaring war on Germany. If
      Italy is not at war with USSR, they can have units wherever they want, with
      the understanding that, if the USSR declares war on Italy, they can
      immediately break the Nazi-Soviet pact if any now belligerent Italian units
      are in German-controlled hexes within 3 hexes of the German/Soviet border.

      That's my understanding of the Nazi-Soviet pact, and non-aggression pacts in
      general.

      -Mike
      ncromcr@...
      On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 1:19 PM, <sajbalk@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      > If IT troops are within 3 hexes of the common border in German controlled
      > hexes, and the USSR becomes at war with Italy while the N-S Pact is still in
      > place, then the aforementioned Italian units teleport so that they are not
      > within 3 hexes of the common border. If the IT troops are in an Italian
      > controlled Lithuania, then there is no teleportation because the hexes are
      > not German controlled.
      >
      > So, as you outline it the USSR cannot break the Pact because the IT units
      > cannot approach the border.
      >
      > I agree that the IT units do not provide any garrison benefit.
      >
      > Steve B.
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gratz, Herbert
      Nope. They teleport away. Von: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Mike Ensele Gesendet: Donnerstag, 01. Juli
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2010
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        Nope. They teleport away.

        Von: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Mike Ensele
        Gesendet: Donnerstag, 01. Juli 2010 09:27
        An: wifdiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        Betreff: Re: : [wifdiscussion] Pact garrisons



        Wait, the Italian units teleport because they're in German controlled hexes
        within 3 hexes of the Soviet border if/when they become at war with the
        USSR? That doesn't sound right.

        My understanding is that if Italian units are at any point at war with the
        USSR and are in German controlled territory (assuming Germany/USSR are
        neutral), they provide carte blanche for the Soviets to end the pact at
        will, as a violation of the pact (having a belligerent nation near the
        border). This also applies if Italian air units then attack (tactical or
        strategic) the USSR, either taking off or landing into German controlled
        hexes. Same deal for Germany if the Allies somehow contrive to have British
        units (at war with Germany) near the border.

        If Italian (at war with USSR) units are in hexes within an Italian
        controlled Lithuania, there is no effect on garrison ratios or the
        Nazi-Soviet pact. They are within Italian controlled territory, and provide
        neither benefit to the Germans, nor provocation (per RAW) to the Soviets.
        The impulse after a single Italian land/air unit moves into German
        controlled territory within 3 hexes of the border, the Soviets can break the
        pact with no US entry, and without actually declaring war on Germany. If
        Italy is not at war with USSR, they can have units wherever they want, with
        the understanding that, if the USSR declares war on Italy, they can
        immediately break the Nazi-Soviet pact if any now belligerent Italian units
        are in German-controlled hexes within 3 hexes of the German/Soviet border.

        That's my understanding of the Nazi-Soviet pact, and non-aggression pacts in
        general.

        -Mike
        ncromcr@...<mailto:ncromcr%40gmail.com>
        On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 1:19 PM, <sajbalk@...<mailto:sajbalk%40aol.com>> wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > If IT troops are within 3 hexes of the common border in German controlled
        > hexes, and the USSR becomes at war with Italy while the N-S Pact is still in
        > place, then the aforementioned Italian units teleport so that they are not
        > within 3 hexes of the common border. If the IT troops are in an Italian
        > controlled Lithuania, then there is no teleportation because the hexes are
        > not German controlled.
        >
        > So, as you outline it the USSR cannot break the Pact because the IT units
        > cannot approach the border.
        >
        > I agree that the IT units do not provide any garrison benefit.
        >
        > Steve B.
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lavisj
        Mike here is the rule in question (on neutrality pact 9.5) Effect of neutrality pacts After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 1, 2010
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          Mike here is the rule in question (on neutrality pact 9.5)

          "Effect of neutrality pacts
          After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.
          "

          Jerome
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