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Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace

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  • Wes Smock
    One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are
    Message 1 of 20 , May 21, 2013
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      One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:

       

      I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.

    • Eric Mulay
      Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way.. guys like me, where I live, we do not have
      Message 2 of 20 , May 21, 2013
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        Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
        guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

        everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

        btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..
         
        the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON


        On 5/21/2013 12:00 AM, brandonh1331 wrote:
         

        I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.


      • e. m
        Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way.. guys like me, where I live, we do not have
        Message 3 of 20 , May 21, 2013
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          Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
          guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

          everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

          btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

          the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON


          --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
          >
          > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Lewie
          I m hitting the like button on Wes Sent from my iPhone
          Message 4 of 20 , May 21, 2013
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            I'm hitting the like button on Wes

            Sent from my iPhone

            On May 21, 2013, at 6:38 AM, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:

             

            One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.

            Sent from my iPhone

            On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:

             

            I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.

          • Cody Young
            I see it in the same category as engine Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points
            Message 5 of 20 , May 21, 2013
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              I see it in the same category as engine 
              Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
              Sent from my iPhone

              On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

               

              Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
              guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

              everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

              btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

              the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

              --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
              >
              > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
              > >
              > >
              >

            • Eric Mulay
              they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them... still.. no valid argument against them has been posted.
              Message 6 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                still.. no valid argument against them has been posted. 




                On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:  
                I see it in the same category as engine 
                Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
                Sent from my iPhone

                On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

                 

                Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
                guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

                everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

                btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

                the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

                --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
                >
                > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                > >
                > >
                >


              • Chris
                So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does encourage more rookies to compete. They do make a car last longer, but do not make
                Message 7 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                  So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does encourage more rookies to compete.  They do make a car last longer, but do not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced.    I am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc).  These items are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new competitors to have these.  

                  But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and braces should be allowed:

                  - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events.   The 8-20 cars are almost all people who run multiple shows.   The rookie argument doesn't apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.  

                  -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the benefits of a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.  

                  -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class.  (Like di).  In those rules, you can do nothing.   No welding.  No body shaping.  Nothing.  It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....   Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace.   All of that work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace.    Moreover, if you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....

                  - cost:    A tranny brace costs less than a transmission.   No one has money to buy multiple transmissions.  

                  -safety.   Broken transmissions that shatter and spray hot tranny fluid are not the safest option

                  -fans and crowd attendance.    Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.   They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to thrive.           With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and better.   Tranny braces support this.  



                  Again, I am just a rookie.   But these are my 2 cents. 


                  7he Magician 

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:

                   

                  they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                  still.. no valid argument against them has been posted. 




                  On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:

                   
                  I see it in the same category as engine 
                  Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

                   

                  Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
                  guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

                  everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

                  btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

                  the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

                  --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • eric
                  For a rookie.. I started with one car and just did what I could... had no clue what to do.. but.. I liked it and kept learning.. I m still learning ..
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                    For a rookie.. I started with one car and just did what I could... had no clue what to do.. but.. I liked it and kept learning..
                    I'm still learning ..
                    Innovation is something to go with not repress.
                    Help help I'm being repressed....

                    Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!


                    -----Original message-----
                    From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                    To:
                    "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com" <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Cc:
                    "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com" <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent:
                    Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:42 PDT
                    Subject:
                    Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace

                     

                    So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does encourage more rookies to compete.  They do make a car last longer, but do not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced.    I am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc).  These items are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new competitors to have these.  

                    But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and braces should be allowed:

                    - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events.   The 8-20 cars are almost all people who run multiple shows.   The rookie argument doesn't apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.  

                    -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the benefits of a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.  

                    -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class.  (Like di).  In those rules, you can do nothing.   No welding.  No body shaping.  Nothing.  It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....   Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace.   All of that work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace.    Moreover, if you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....

                    - cost:    A tranny brace costs less than a transmission.   No one has money to buy multiple transmissions.  

                    -safety.   Broken transmissions that shatter and spray hot tranny fluid are not the safest option

                    -fans and crowd attendance.    Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.   They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to thrive.           With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and better.   Tranny braces support this.  



                    Again, I am just a rookie.   But these are my 2 cents. 


                    7he Magician 

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:

                     

                    they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                    still.. no valid argument against them has been posted. 




                    On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:

                     
                    I see it in the same category as engine 
                    Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

                     

                    Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
                    guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

                    everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

                    btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

                    the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

                    --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >


                  • kenbmx2000
                    WELL SAID Chris The drivers Value your humble opinion but do the Promoters??? ... From: Chris To: west_coast_derby_gallery
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                      WELL SAID Chris
                      The drivers Value your humble opinion but do the Promoters??? 


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                      To: west_coast_derby_gallery <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Cc: west_coast_derby_gallery <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 5:04 pm
                      Subject: Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace

                       
                      So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does encourage more rookies to compete.  They do make a car last longer, but do not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced.    I am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc).  These items are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new competitors to have these.  

                      But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and braces should be allowed:

                      - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events.   The 8-20 cars are almost all people who run multiple shows.   The rookie argument doesn't apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.  

                      -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the be nefits of a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.  

                      -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class.  (Like di).  In those rules, you can do nothing.   No welding.  No body shaping.  Nothing.  It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....   Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace.   All of that work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace.    Moreover, if you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....

                      - cost:    A tranny brace costs less than a transmission.   No one has money to buy multiple transmissions.  

                      -safety.   Broken transmissions that shatter and spray h ot tranny fluid are not the safest option

                      -fans and crowd attendance.    Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.   They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to thrive.           With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and better.   Tranny braces support this.  



                      Again, I am just a rookie.   But these are my 2 cents. 


                      7he Magician 

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:

                       
                      they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                      still.. no valid argument against them has been posted. 




                      On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:
                       
                      I see it in the same category as engine 
                      Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

                       
                      Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
                      guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

                      everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

                      btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

                      the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

                      --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Cody Young
                      Very well said. Think about it moon. Most of the guys that come to ur Derbys either want it or don t care. Sent from my iPhone
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                        Very well said. Think about it moon. Most of the guys that come to ur Derbys either want it or don't care. 

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On May 22, 2013, at 5:25 PM, DerbyKc@... wrote:

                         

                        WELL SAID Chris

                        The drivers Value your humble opinion but do the Promoters??? 


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                        To: west_coast_derby_gallery <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Cc: west_coast_derby_gallery <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 5:04 pm
                        Subject: Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace

                         
                        So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does encourage more rookies to compete.  They do make a car last longer, but do not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced.    I am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc).  These items are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new competitors to have these.  

                        But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and braces should be allowed:

                        - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events.   The 8-20 cars are almost all people who run multiple shows.   The rookie argument doesn't apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.  

                        -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the be nefits of a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.  

                        -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class.  (Like di).  In those rules, you can do nothing.   No welding.  No body shaping.  Nothing.  It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....   Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace.   All of that work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace.    Moreover, if you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....

                        - cost:    A tranny brace costs less than a transmission.   No one has money to buy multiple transmissions.  

                        -safety.   Broken transmissions that shatter and spray h ot tranny fluid are not the safest option

                        -fans and crowd attendance.    Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.   They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to thrive.           With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and better.   Tranny braces support this.  



                        Again, I am just a rookie.   But these are my 2 cents. 


                        7he Magician 

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:

                         
                        they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                        still.. no valid argument against them has been posted. 




                        On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:
                         
                        I see it in the same category as engine 
                        Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny cradle and not a tranny brace. 
                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:

                         
                        Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think people would bitch if it was written that way..
                        guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to are at least a 3 hour drive one way..

                        everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to get with it and listen..

                        btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..

                        the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON

                        --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger. We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >


                      • btholt1991
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 22, 2013
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                          --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, eric<emulay@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > For a rookie.. I started with one car and just did what I could... had no
                          > clue what to do.. but.. I liked it and kept learning..
                          > I'm still learning ..
                          > Innovation is something to go with not repress.
                          > Help help I'm being repressed....
                          >
                          > Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!
                          >
                          > -----Original message-----
                          > From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                          > To: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                          > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Cc: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                          > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:42 PDT
                          > Subject: Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace
                          >
                          > So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does
                          > encourage more rookies to compete. They do make a car last longer, but do
                          > not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced. I
                          > am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of
                          > building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc). These items
                          > are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new
                          > competitors to have these.
                          >
                          > But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and
                          > braces should be allowed:
                          >
                          > - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events. The 8-20 cars
                          > are almost all people who run multiple shows. The rookie argument doesn't
                          > apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.
                          >
                          > -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the benefits of
                          > a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.
                          >
                          > -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny
                          > braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class. (Like di). In
                          > those rules, you can do nothing. No welding. No body shaping. Nothing.
                          > It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate
                          > , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....
                          > Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace. All of that
                          > work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace. Moreover, if
                          > you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....
                          >
                          > - cost: A tranny brace costs less than a transmission. No one has money
                          > to buy multiple transmissions.
                          >
                          > -safety. Broken transmissions that shatter and spray hot tranny fluid are
                          > not the safest option
                          >
                          > -fans and crowd attendance. Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.
                          > They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to
                          > thrive. With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and
                          > better. Tranny braces support this.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Again, I am just a rookie. But these are my 2 cents.
                          >
                          >
                          > 7he Magician
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                          > > still.. no valid argument against them has been posted.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:
                          > >
                          > >>
                          > >> I see it in the same category as engine
                          > >> Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to
                          > use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as
                          > long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny
                          > cradle and not a tranny brace.
                          > >> Sent from my iPhone
                          > >>
                          > >> On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think
                          > people would bitch if it was written that way..
                          > >>> guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the
                          > closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to
                          > are at least a 3 hour drive one way..
                          > >>>
                          > >>> everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against
                          > them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to
                          > get with it and listen..
                          > >>>
                          > >>> btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any
                          > promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the
                          > drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..
                          > >>>
                          > >>> the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for
                          > these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add
                          > strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON
                          > >>>
                          > >>> --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >>> >
                          > >>> > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy
                          > trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a
                          > little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better
                          > bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not
                          > Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo
                          > 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating
                          > and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so
                          > they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                          > >>> >
                          > >>> > Sent from my iPhone
                          > >>> >
                          > >>> > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >>> >
                          > >>> > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should
                          > be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If
                          > you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the
                          > crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards
                          > and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This
                          > way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger.
                          > We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with
                          > the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                          > >>> > >
                          > >>> > >
                          > >>> >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >ok let us run them butt put it in the rules size and shape how to attach not a hidden rule were guys have to run against them unaware of why 1 buick is stronger than the next buick then every one can run them or not
                        • btholt1991
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 22, 2013
                          View Source
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                            --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, eric<emulay@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > For a rookie.. I started with one car and just did what I could... had no
                            > clue what to do.. but.. I liked it and kept learning..
                            > I'm still learning ..
                            > Innovation is something to go with not repress.
                            > Help help I'm being repressed....
                            >
                            > Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!
                            >
                            > -----Original message-----
                            > From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                            > To: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                            > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Cc: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                            > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:42 PDT
                            > Subject: Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace
                            >
                            > So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does
                            > encourage more rookies to compete. They do make a car last longer, but do
                            > not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced. I
                            > am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of
                            > building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc). These items
                            > are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new
                            > competitors to have these.
                            >
                            > But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and
                            > braces should be allowed:
                            >
                            > - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events. The 8-20 cars
                            > are almost all people who run multiple shows. The rookie argument doesn't
                            > apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.
                            >
                            > -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the benefits of
                            > a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.
                            >
                            > -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny
                            > braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class. (Like di). In
                            > those rules, you can do nothing. No welding. No body shaping. Nothing.
                            > It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate
                            > , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....
                            > Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace. All of that
                            > work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace. Moreover, if
                            > you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....
                            >
                            > - cost: A tranny brace costs less than a transmission. No one has money
                            > to buy multiple transmissions.
                            >
                            > -safety. Broken transmissions that shatter and spray hot tranny fluid are
                            > not the safest option
                            >
                            > -fans and crowd attendance. Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.
                            > They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to
                            > thrive. With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and
                            > better. Tranny braces support this.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Again, I am just a rookie. But these are my 2 cents.
                            >
                            >
                            > 7he Magician
                            >
                            > Sent from my iPhone
                            >
                            > On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                            > > still.. no valid argument against them has been posted.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:
                            > >
                            > >>
                            > >> I see it in the same category as engine
                            > >> Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to
                            > use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as
                            > long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny
                            > cradle and not a tranny brace.
                            > >> Sent from my iPhone
                            > >>
                            > >> On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think
                            > people would bitch if it was written that way..
                            > >>> guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the
                            > closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to
                            > are at least a 3 hour drive one way..
                            > >>>
                            > >>> everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against
                            > them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to
                            > get with it and listen..
                            > >>>
                            > >>> btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any
                            > promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the
                            > drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..
                            > >>>
                            > >>> the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for
                            > these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add
                            > strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON
                            > >>>
                            > >>> --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >>> >
                            > >>> > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy
                            > trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a
                            > little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better
                            > bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not
                            > Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo
                            > 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating
                            > and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so
                            > they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                            > >>> >
                            > >>> > Sent from my iPhone
                            > >>> >
                            > >>> > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >>> >
                            > >>> > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should
                            > be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If
                            > you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the
                            > crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards
                            > and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This
                            > way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger.
                            > We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with
                            > the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                            > >>> > >
                            > >>> > >
                            > >>> >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >ok let us run them butt put it in the rules size and shape how to attach not a hidden rule were guys have to run against them unaware of why 1 buick is stronger than the next buick then every one can run them or not
                          • btholt1991
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 22, 2013
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, eric<emulay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > For a rookie.. I started with one car and just did what I could... had no
                              > clue what to do.. but.. I liked it and kept learning..
                              > I'm still learning ..
                              > Innovation is something to go with not repress.
                              > Help help I'm being repressed....
                              >
                              > Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!
                              >
                              > -----Original message-----
                              > From: Chris <sacchris7@...>
                              > To: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                              > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Cc: "west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com"
                              > <west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Wed, May 22, 2013 11:02:42 PDT
                              > Subject: Re: [west_coast_derby_gallery] Re: trans brace
                              >
                              > So, i think the only good argument for prohibiting tranny braces is it does
                              > encourage more rookies to compete. They do make a car last longer, but do
                              > not make the car stronger if the rules are well written and enforced. I
                              > am just now getting into the sport as a driver and am in the orocess of
                              > building 1 car that is bone stock and a. Semi mod. (Dp tp etc). These items
                              > are either time intensive and or expensive so it isnt easy for most new
                              > competitors to have these.
                              >
                              > But, in my humble opinion, this isnt applicable to this discussion and
                              > braces should be allowed:
                              >
                              > - there are not new drivers competing in most Cali events. The 8-20 cars
                              > are almost all people who run multiple shows. The rookie argument doesn't
                              > apply if there are no rookies who are building cars without braces.
                              >
                              > -those who are entering the sport now (such as myself) value the benefits of
                              > a tranny brace and will want to buy one once they can.
                              >
                              > -if you are really trying to get new rooks and if you do not want tranny
                              > braces and a build, then run a true chain and bang class. (Like di). In
                              > those rules, you can do nothing. No welding. No body shaping. Nothing.
                              > It makes sense then, but if you are allowing body bolts, short stacks, plate
                              > , frame repair, frame shaping, bumper stuffing, bumper shock swaps, etc....
                              > Really what is the difference on allowing a tranny brace. All of that
                              > work scares off a rookie far more than does a tranny brace. Moreover, if
                              > you are doing all of that, a brace is a shit load less work than that ....
                              >
                              > - cost: A tranny brace costs less than a transmission. No one has money
                              > to buy multiple transmissions.
                              >
                              > -safety. Broken transmissions that shatter and spray hot tranny fluid are
                              > not the safest option
                              >
                              > -fans and crowd attendance. Crowds want long shows with hard hitting.
                              > They pay the purses and the insurance which allows the sport we love to
                              > thrive. With smaller car counts, the shows need to be longer and
                              > better. Tranny braces support this.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Again, I am just a rookie. But these are my 2 cents.
                              >
                              >
                              > 7he Magician
                              >
                              > Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > On May 22, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Eric Mulay <emulay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > they can call it what ever they want.. they just need to allow them...
                              > > still.. no valid argument against them has been posted.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On 5/21/2013 11:06 AM, Cody Young wrote:
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > >> I see it in the same category as engine
                              > >> Cradles. Guys are using them to not brake blocks. We should be Able to
                              > use a tranny cradle to help out the week points on the tranny housing as
                              > long as it doesn't strengthen ur car. Maybe we should call it a tranny
                              > cradle and not a tranny brace.
                              > >> Sent from my iPhone
                              > >>
                              > >> On May 21, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "e. m" <emulay@...> wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Brandon... sure thats what everyone has in mind... and I dont think
                              > people would bitch if it was written that way..
                              > >>> guys like me, where I live, we do not have cheap junk yards.. the
                              > closest pick a part is 3 hours away. hell,, all but 2 of the derbies I go to
                              > are at least a 3 hour drive one way..
                              > >>>
                              > >>> everyone i talk to is for them... i do not see why promoters are against
                              > them... We are the customer base.. we are the show.. I think they need to
                              > get with it and listen..
                              > >>>
                              > >>> btw.. these comments are not intended to dig at anyone... or any
                              > promoter.. im not saying that in any way.. im just stating what all the
                              > drivers i have talked to would like to see happen..
                              > >>>
                              > >>> the too expensive argument and add strength argument do not work for
                              > these anymore, they are cheap and the rule can be written to not add
                              > strength.. so .. whats the next issue we need to debunk... BRING IT ON
                              > >>>
                              > >>> --- In west_coast_derby_gallery@yahoogroups.com, Wes Smock <wess11p@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >>> >
                              > >>> > One thing people are not saying is what kind of tranny they run, Chevy
                              > trannys are known for having weak bellhousings, the only ones that are a
                              > little tuff are the hds, Chrysler and ford trannys have a lot better
                              > bellhousings. That's probably why some of you have never broke them, not
                              > Chevy guys.i know every one of my derby friends that have ran Chevy turbo
                              > 350s and 400s have broke bellhousing and there trannys were free floating
                              > and just resting on the crossmember. Tranny braces with the right rules so
                              > they don't add car strength should be allowed.
                              > >>> >
                              > >>> > Sent from my iPhone
                              > >>> >
                              > >>> > On May 21, 2013, at 12:00 AM, "brandonh1331" <brandon_missy@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >>> >
                              > >>> > > I would like to see transmission braces, but I dont feel they should
                              > be allowed to be attached to the crossmember, body of car or cage at all. If
                              > you are allowed run a trans brace it should only supported by the
                              > crossmember and be allowed to slide forwards, backwards
                              > and side to side without pushing against any structual part of the car. This
                              > way it is only being used as a trans brace and not to make the car stronger.
                              > We already allow our transmissions to free float and only support them with
                              > the crossmember. Maybe this is why we have not had many trannys break on us.
                              > >>> > >
                              > >>> > >
                              > >>> >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >ok let us run them butt put it in the rules size and shape how to attach not a hidden rule were guys have to run against them unaware of why 1 buick is stronger than the next buick then every one can run them or not
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