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Re: [Wesleyan Theology ] What happened to Prophecy?

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  • Ken H.
    What happened to our doctrines regarding prophecy? Why has the holiness movement left Adam Clarke, Wesley and other Early Methodist to embrace Hal LInsay,
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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      What happened to our doctrines regarding prophecy? Why has the holiness movement left Adam Clarke, Wesley and other Early Methodist to embrace Hal LInsay, Woolsey, and the other modern futurist?

      To my knowledge, most holiness churches do not take an official stand on pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, pre-mil, post-mil or a-mil. While this may or may not be the case, it sure seems to me that the majority are following the pre-trib and pre-mil crowd.

      The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these modern versions of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a partial preterist and a post mil. They were looking the second coming at the very end of history. Clarke believed that the tribulation occured in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking for a future Beast. He correctly pointed out the Beast as Ceaser Nero.
      Are we to believe that these early writers were uniformed about prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?

      Ken




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    • Tommy
      ... holiness movement left Adam Clarke, Wesley and other Early Methodist to embrace Hal LInsay, Woolsey, and the other modern futurist? ... stand on pre-trib,
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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        --- In wesleyantheology@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H." <khawn@...> wrote:
        >
        > What happened to our doctrines regarding prophecy? Why has the
        holiness movement left Adam Clarke, Wesley and other Early Methodist
        to embrace Hal LInsay, Woolsey, and the other modern futurist?
        >
        > To my knowledge, most holiness churches do not take an official
        stand on pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, pre-mil, post-mil or a-mil.
        While this may or may not be the case, it sure seems to me that the
        majority are following the pre-trib and pre-mil crowd.
        >
        > The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these modern versions
        of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a partial preterist and a
        post mil. They were looking the second coming at the very end of
        history. Clarke believed that the tribulation occured in 70 AD with
        the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking for a future Beast. He
        correctly pointed out the Beast as Ceaser Nero.
        > Are we to believe that these early writers were uniformed about
        prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >

        Ken,

        I dont know about all the holiness denominations but in the Church
        of the Nazarene there has been a shift. Im not saying the shift is
        complete and total or ever will be but we have had a couple of good
        books out on the subject. One is "Answers for Chicken Little A No-
        Nonsense Look at the Book of Revelation" by Dan Boone. Dan is the
        president of TNU. I havnt read the book yet myself but I know Dan is
        a good writer and a clear thinker. Also H. Ray Dunning edited a book
        a few years ago on the subject that places the topic within the
        context of the wesleyan theological framework

        Tommy
      • Craig L. Adams
        ... There isn t exactly an official Wesleyan eschatology. Many of the 19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were post-millenialists who expected the
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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          On May 1, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Ken H. wrote:

          > The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these modern versions
          > of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a partial preterist and
          > a post mil. They were looking the second coming at the very end of
          > history. Clarke believed that the tribulation occured in 70 AD
          > with the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking for a future
          > Beast. He correctly pointed out the Beast as Ceaser Nero.
          > Are we to believe that these early writers were uniformed about
          > prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?

          There isn't exactly an official Wesleyan eschatology. Many of the
          19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were post-millenialists
          who expected the preaching of the Gospel and efforts to reform
          society to usher in a millenial Golden Age.

          See:

          A SUBSTITUTE FOR HOLINESS
          OR
          ANTINOMIANISM REVIVED
          THE THEOLOGY OF THE SO-CALLED PLYMOUTH BRETHREN EXAMINED AND REFUTED.
          BY
          DANIEL STEELE, S.T.D.
          http://www.gospeltruth.net/Antinomianism/antinom_toc.htm

          Dispenattionalism & Wesleyanism do not go together well — though you
          are right that many modern Christians have unthinkingly bought into
          this theology simply because it has become so popular.


          Craig L. Adams
          Weidman United Methodist Church
          http://www.gbgm-umc.org/weidman/
          A Few Old Books From My Library
          http://homepage.mac.com/craigadams1/
        • Tommy
          ... versions ... and ... of ... millenialists ... Craig, I agree but only as long as the preaching of the gospel includes not just the verbal proclaimation
          Message 4 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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            --- In wesleyantheology@yahoogroups.com, "Craig L. Adams"
            <craigadams1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > On May 1, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Ken H. wrote:
            >
            > > The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these modern
            versions
            > > of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a partial preterist
            and
            > > a post mil. They were looking the second coming at the very end
            of
            > > history. Clarke believed that the tribulation occured in 70 AD
            > > with the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking for a future
            > > Beast. He correctly pointed out the Beast as Ceaser Nero.
            > > Are we to believe that these early writers were uniformed about
            > > prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?
            >
            > There isn't exactly an official Wesleyan eschatology. Many of the
            > 19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were post-
            millenialists
            > who expected the preaching of the Gospel and efforts to reform
            > society to usher in a millenial Golden Age.
            >



            Craig,

            I agree but only as long as the "preaching of the gospel" includes
            not just the verbal proclaimation but also the living out of it.
            Without that it is kind of a weak argument.

            Tommy
          • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
            ... Many of the ... This is reflected in the present discipline of the church. I think this form of post-trib theologian (maybe even a realized eschatology) is
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2, 2006
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              --- "Craig L. Adams" <craigadams1@...> wrote:
              Many of the
              > 19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were
              > post-millenialists
              > who expected the preaching of the Gospel and efforts
              > to reform
              > society to usher in a millenial Golden Age.

              This is reflected in the present discipline of the
              church. I think this form of post-trib theologian
              (maybe even a realized eschatology) is in such
              sections as Par 121-124 of the BoD.

              Andrew G.
            • Ken H.
              While there seems to be much work to do, I believe that in many ways Christianity is gaining ground. Never before has the gospel been preached in so many
              Message 6 of 8 , May 2, 2006
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                While there seems to be much work to do, I believe that in many ways Christianity is gaining ground. Never before has the gospel been preached in so many areas of the world as it is today. Slavery has been 99% stamped out. Social evil is still with us, but at least it is being attacked. The rate of success could increase dramatically with the Lord's help. If we could experience first century growth in the 21st century, we might well see the Church take over the whole earth.

                Ken

                Tommy <tj21564@...> wrote: --- In wesleyantheology@yahoogroups.com, "Craig L. Adams"
                <craigadams1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > On May 1, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Ken H. wrote:
                >
                > > The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these modern
                versions
                > > of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a partial preterist
                and
                > > a post mil. They were looking the second coming at the very end
                of
                > > history. Clarke believed that the tribulation occured in 70 AD
                > > with the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking for a future
                > > Beast. He correctly pointed out the Beast as Ceaser Nero.
                > > Are we to believe that these early writers were uniformed about
                > > prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?
                >
                > There isn't exactly an official Wesleyan eschatology. Many of the
                > 19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were post-
                millenialists
                > who expected the preaching of the Gospel and efforts to reform
                > society to usher in a millenial Golden Age.
                >



                Craig,

                I agree but only as long as the "preaching of the gospel" includes
                not just the verbal proclaimation but also the living out of it.
                Without that it is kind of a weak argument.

                Tommy





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              • Ken H.
                The Bible really isn t clear as to the condition of this world when Christ returns. I believe the Lord wanted us to be more focused on the present Kingdom
                Message 7 of 8 , May 2, 2006
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                  The Bible really isn't clear as to the condition of
                  this world when Christ returns. I believe the Lord
                  wanted us to be more focused on the present Kingdom
                  that the kingdom that is to come.

                  From what I read in the the Bible, it appears that the
                  church of the first century was expecting the Lord's
                  return in their day. What would give them that idea?
                  Well, maybe it was some things that the Lord had said
                  before he ascended. He told his disciples that "this"
                  meaning "their" generation would not pass away until
                  they see prophecy fulfilled. Jesus told the High
                  Priest at His trial that "he" would not die until he
                  see the Lord returning. Was Jesus making up
                  something, or did He mean to return before some of His
                  disciples and the High Priest should die?

                  Some people chose to answer this question by saying
                  that a generation is a "race." They believe Jesus was
                  talking about the Jewish race not passing away. Most
                  scholars totally reject that interpretation. The same
                  word used in other places in the Bible means just what
                  it means in Matt. 24. It means a generation (about 40
                  years). Some want to claim that Jesus prophecy in
                  Matt. 24 was fulfilled at the Mt. of Transfiguration.
                  When you really take a close look at what is
                  prophecied and what happened at the Transfiguration
                  you will see that it just doesn't fit.

                  When Jesus told the High Priest that he would see His
                  return, he wasn't kidding. The High Priest knew what
                  Jesus was talking about and accused Him of blasphemy.
                  He knew that Jesus was talking about a return in
                  judgment, just as God did in the Old Testament, when
                  He rode on the clouds to lead the enemies of Israel
                  against them. Here is a picture of Jesus returning in
                  judgment (not the second coming) leading the Romans
                  against Jerusalem and to destroy the Jewish system.
                  This is exactly what happened in 70 AD. If this
                  sounds fantastic, I would invite you to read
                  Josephus's account of the destruction of Jerusalem.
                  He recounts the miracles and signs that occured. He
                  even stated that a great army was seen riding through
                  the sky. Everything that Jesus prophecied happened in
                  70 AD.

                  Ken

                  --- "Craig L. Adams" <craigadams1@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > On May 1, 2006, at 12:20 PM, Ken H. wrote:
                  >
                  > > The Early Methodist would not have swallowed these
                  > modern versions
                  > > of prophecy. Clarke was somewhere between a
                  > partial preterist and
                  > > a post mil. They were looking the second coming
                  > at the very end of
                  > > history. Clarke believed that the tribulation
                  > occured in 70 AD
                  > > with the destruction of Jerusalem. He was looking
                  > for a future
                  > > Beast. He correctly pointed out the Beast as
                  > Ceaser Nero.
                  > > Are we to believe that these early writers were
                  > uniformed about
                  > > prophecy in the Bible? Why have we changed?
                  >
                  > There isn't exactly an official Wesleyan
                  > eschatology. Many of the
                  > 19th Century Holiness writers & revivalists were
                  > post-millenialists
                  > who expected the preaching of the Gospel and efforts
                  > to reform
                  > society to usher in a millenial Golden Age.
                  >
                  > See:
                  >
                  > A SUBSTITUTE FOR HOLINESS
                  > OR
                  > ANTINOMIANISM REVIVED
                  > THE THEOLOGY OF THE SO-CALLED PLYMOUTH BRETHREN
                  > EXAMINED AND REFUTED.
                  > BY
                  > DANIEL STEELE, S.T.D.
                  >
                  http://www.gospeltruth.net/Antinomianism/antinom_toc.htm
                  >
                  > Dispenattionalism & Wesleyanism do not go together
                  > well — though you
                  > are right that many modern Christians have
                  > unthinkingly bought into
                  > this theology simply because it has become so
                  > popular.
                  >
                  >
                  > Craig L. Adams
                  > Weidman United Methodist Church
                  > http://www.gbgm-umc.org/weidman/
                  > A Few Old Books From My Library
                  > http://homepage.mac.com/craigadams1/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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