Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Wesleyan Theology] Re: Abraham

Expand Messages
  • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
    ... Craig already aswered this well. The differences between CM and GNM is that one is primarily a lobbyist group and the other is a platoform for denomination
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2004
      --- "Craig L. Adams" <craigadams1@...> wrote:
      > In theory they are. I think the Confessing Movement
      > is intended to be more
      > of a "broad tent." Good News is a magazine,
      > primarily.

      Craig already aswered this well.

      The differences between CM and GNM is that one is
      primarily a lobbyist group and the other is a
      platoform for denomination renewal. That is why they
      sound so much alike. They are trying to do the same
      thing, but they seek to do it through slightly
      different means.

      CM has the task of lobbying annual conferences and
      the general conference to change or stay true to a
      particular agenda. You are most likely to see CM folks
      as CM folks when Methodists are conferencing. They are
      the conservative counterpart to groups like the
      Methodist Federation for Social Action.

      Good News starts with the same theology as the CM
      for the most part. However, Good News seeks to change
      the hearts and mind of folks in the pew and the
      pulpit. That is where their battle is for the most
      part.

      Both groups realize that the other is an ally. You
      cannot change the local charge without changing the
      conferences. You cannot change the conferences without
      changing the folks in the pew. Hence, the similarity.

      Andrew G.

      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
      http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
    • hamgears
      Thanks for the info on CM and GN, Craig and Andrew. That book on connectionalism does sound good. I m interested in the upcoming UMC General Conference. I
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2004
        Thanks for the info on CM and GN, Craig and Andrew. That book on
        connectionalism does sound good. I'm interested in the upcoming UMC
        General Conference. I understand there will be discussion on Holy
        Communion. I'm not sure of all the details of this discussion but I think part of it
        is a recommendation that Communion be held more often in the UM
        churches. I read an article about the issue in which the Rev. Gayle Felton
        was interviewed. It's about a report that may be adopted at the conference.
        Here is a paragrasph from that article: "What do United Methodists want from
        Holy Communion? According to information from lay people across the
        church, they want more than they are receiving. Pastors need to be better
        educated in sacramental theology and practice and church leaders must hold
        pastors accoutnable for their sacramental theology, practice and teaching,
        according to Felton."
        Do you think this is part of the renewal that the Confessing and Good News
        groups and Abraham want?
        What other resolutions do you think these groups might seek at the
        convention?
        Craig and Andrew: you are both pastors. Do you feel the churches need
        renewal? If so, in what ways?

        Larry
      • tj21564@yahoo.com
        ... think part of it ... Gayle Felton ... conference. ... Methodists want from ... better ... must hold ... teaching, ... Good News ... the ... need ... Larry,
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2004
          --- In wesleyantheology@yahoogroups.com, "hamgears" <lmitchell@c...>
          wrote:
          > Thanks for the info on CM and GN, Craig and Andrew. That book on
          > connectionalism does sound good. I'm interested in the upcoming UMC
          > General Conference. I understand there will be discussion on Holy
          > Communion. I'm not sure of all the details of this discussion but I
          think part of it
          > is a recommendation that Communion be held more often in the UM
          > churches. I read an article about the issue in which the Rev.
          Gayle Felton
          > was interviewed. It's about a report that may be adopted at the
          conference.
          > Here is a paragrasph from that article: "What do United
          Methodists want from
          > Holy Communion? According to information from lay people across the
          > church, they want more than they are receiving. Pastors need to be
          better
          > educated in sacramental theology and practice and church leaders
          must hold
          > pastors accoutnable for their sacramental theology, practice and
          teaching,
          > according to Felton."
          > Do you think this is part of the renewal that the Confessing and
          Good News
          > groups and Abraham want?
          > What other resolutions do you think these groups might seek at
          the
          > convention?
          > Craig and Andrew: you are both pastors. Do you feel the churches
          need
          > renewal? If so, in what ways?
          >
          > Larry


          Larry,

          I agree with the idea that we need to have a better understanding
          of sacramental theology. In the Church of the Nazarene we have seen a
          few churches openning up to a more liturgical worship. As I grew up
          we celebrated the Lord's Table 4 times a year including Christmas and
          Easter but now most do it once a month. Still, there is something
          missing. I hesitate to suggest more ritual but so often I observe
          such a casual observance of the Table that I wonder if more ritual
          might not force us to become more serious about it.

          Tommy
        • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
          ... Sadly, I think that GN and CM spend most of their time worrying about issues of politics (church and public). While there is nothing wrong with this, it
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
            --- hamgears <lmitchell@...> wrote:
            > Do you think this is part of the renewal that the
            > Confessing and Good News
            > groups and Abraham want?

            Sadly, I think that GN and CM spend most of their
            time worrying about issues of politics (church and
            public). While there is nothing wrong with this, it
            fails to see that most of the "big issues" in the
            church today have more to do with fundamental theology
            of the church.

            For example, homosexuality is not really a debate
            about gay persons being welcomed in the church,
            marriage, ordination, etc. Although it is also about
            those things. It is primarily about HOW we read
            scripture and the PLACE scripture has in the life of
            the church. If the Bible is the ground of all faith
            and practice, in WHAT WAY is it that ground. It is
            also a debate about tradition and the ways in which we
            have chosen to be church in the past and what weight
            we give to those past traditions.

            Good News and CF have already assumed the "right"
            answer to these questions and label those who do not
            agree with these answers "wrong". And so, there is
            little room for dialogue. You either agree with them
            or you do not, for the most part.

            our church needs to have a serious dialogue about
            these more fundamental issues, to decide where we
            stand in order to better have one voice on periferal
            matters such as homosexuality, ordination of women,
            etc.

            BTW, the problems I mentioned about CM and GN are
            also shared by the Methodist Federation for Social
            Action and Reconciling MInistries Network and other
            similar groups on the "Left". I am not being (or
            trying to be) partisan about this.

            Andrew

            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
            http://search.yahoo.com
          • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
            ... I m not sure of all the details of this ... Communion is one of those few issues which is largely a part from the the old liberal/conservative divide. For
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
              --- hamgears <lmitchell@...> wrote:
              I'm not sure of all the details of this
              > discussion but I think part of it
              > is a recommendation that Communion be held more
              > often
              > Do you think this is part of the renewal

              Communion is one of those few issues which is
              largely a part from the the old liberal/conservative
              divide. For this reason - if for no other - it is
              quite refreshing.

              It has more to do with sacramental Methodists and
              non-sacramental Methodists (for lack of a better
              title). In frontier times, Methodism did not practice
              communion regularly (maybe 4 times a year). Now a days
              it is more regular (most churches average about once a
              month). It was John Wesley's intention, however, that
              communion be served every Sunday.

              The problem is this: some find communion every
              Sunday to be "too Catholic" and they reject the
              notion. Others find it is good, right and true to do
              the Lord's Supper every Sunday because Christ asked us
              to do it in remembrance of him. Others endorse it
              precisely because it is the Catholic and Orthodoxy
              thing to do; the earliest church always help communion
              every Sunday.

              There is also some concern here for issues of
              contemporary worship. Most of our communion
              celebrations are not contemporary but look very
              Anglican since the liturgy was revised in 1989. So,
              some contemporary folks do not want "that kind" of
              liturgy celebrated in the church every sunday or even
              more often than it needs to be.

              Some of this is also the old devide between
              Methodists who have been more effected by the
              Calvinist elements of American culture and those who
              have retained more of Wesley's sacramentalism. Wesley
              believed that the Lord's Supper was not JUST a
              memorial but that Christ was really present in the
              bread and wine. He did not subscribe to
              transubstantiation or consubstantiation (both were
              unbiblical in his mind). But he did believe it was
              agains Scripture for Christ not to be the one who
              really and actually presides at the Communion Table.
              This is also "too Catholic" for many, who would like
              to see a doctrine which looks more like classical
              Reformed/Calvinist or Baptist views of a memorial
              feast.

              There are lots of issues here in this one and I look
              forward to the Church's spirited debate on this
              matter. I think worship is one of those things
              Methodists need to talk about much more than they
              fight about abortion or which party is more Christian.


              Andrew

              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
              http://search.yahoo.com
            • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
              ... You can go to the Conference Website. If you go to www.umc.org and click on the General Conference logo on the upper right hand side of the screen you can
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
                --- hamgears <lmitchell@...> wrote:
                > What other resolutions do you think these groups
                > might seek at the
                > convention?


                You can go to the Conference Website. If you go to
                www.umc.org and click on the General Conference logo
                on the upper right hand side of the screen you can get
                everything going on in General Conference before and
                during the debates and after as well. The Church
                always does a really god job, I think, with making the
                proceedings and discussions of GC available to all.

                andrew

                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
                http://search.yahoo.com
              • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
                ... Yes, of course the church needs renewal. However, like to many leaders in the church I too struggle with what kind of renewal is needed exactly. I am
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
                  --- hamgears <lmitchell@...> wrote:
                  > Craig and Andrew: you are both pastors. Do you
                  > feel the churches need
                  > renewal? If so, in what ways?

                  Yes, of course the church needs renewal. However,
                  like to many leaders in the church I too struggle with
                  what kind of renewal is needed exactly.

                  I am sympathetic to the "sacramental methodists". I
                  believe worship has become too much about "me and what
                  I want and need" and not enough about adoring God. A
                  church that panders to 8 million "me"s is bound to
                  fail to make them all happy and bound to continue to
                  hemorrage members no matter what. A Church that offers
                  common cause as worshippers of God and servants of God
                  first and foremost is more likely to be strong. But
                  this does not mean that I think our service need to be
                  stuck in 1945 like some sacramentalists. Or that we
                  need to do it like the Anglicans do. I like our
                  "semi-liturgical" tradition and thing it is right and
                  fitting.

                  I am not sympathetic to those who claim the Church
                  is going down the toilet. These people remind me of
                  folks who read the news and the statistics more than
                  paying attention on Sunday worship (if they show up at
                  all). Our church is strong and vibrant. I ahve no
                  reason to questions that. I've been in the New England
                  Conference, North Central New York, and New Jersey. I
                  think that all are strong and all are statistically
                  among the weakest conferences. We have fewer members
                  that 40 years ago, but we have the highest
                  participation levels (attendance, lay speakers, Emmaus
                  walks, etc) the church has seen for quite some time.
                  This leads me to believe that lots of the hemorraging
                  is "cutting off the fat" so to speak.

                  I am partly sympathetic to those who claim a need
                  for doctrinal renweal. We need to get back to basics.
                  This has worked for every renewal in history. We need
                  to go back to Wesley, I think, back to the Bible, back
                  to the early church traditions Wesley taught us all to
                  love to much. There is a terrible doctrinal amnesia in
                  the church (W. Abraham's phrase). I have kids in my
                  charge who were confirmed but do not know the
                  Apostle's Creed. That is horrible and must be fixed!
                  Most church members do not know basic doctrine when 50
                  years ago they did. However, I take issue with folks
                  like Thomas Oden who seem to want the church to
                  replace itself in to the 6th century. I think this is
                  neither possible nor desirable. We are a 21st century
                  church and people need to get over that. Time comes
                  from God, it is a gift from God and should be taken as
                  such. There is much more room for re-examing the
                  traditions and doctrines of old, or re-formulating
                  them for new audiences than many conservatives are
                  comfortable with.

                  We need to be more socially active - not in the
                  politics of left and right - but in the stuff Jesus
                  taught us to do. We need to be about feeding the
                  hungry, health care, building homes, offering clothes,
                  etc. This stuff knows no party. It is appealing to
                  young people. It is evangelical both to those who like
                  to help and those who a recipients of help.

                  We need to be less embarassed about our faith. This
                  is hard. For me, people exect me to be religious
                  because I am a pastor. I am not familiar with all the
                  difficulties lay persons must have with being
                  Christian at parties, at work, one the street, etc. I
                  cannot imagine this hardship and so I can speak only
                  about it more than to it . . .

                  These are a few of the things which need to be
                  addressed. There are more, I am sure.

                  Andrew G.

                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
                  http://search.yahoo.com
                • tj21564@yahoo.com
                  ... Andrew, I wonder if the real problem throughout the church is that we have lost the meanning of The Table. No matter what our interpretation of views or
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
                    --- In wesleyantheology@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Andrew B. Glos"
                    <abglos@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- hamgears <lmitchell@c...> wrote:
                    > I'm not sure of all the details of this
                    > > discussion but I think part of it
                    > > is a recommendation that Communion be held more
                    > > often
                    > > Do you think this is part of the renewal
                    >
                    > Communion is one of those few issues which is
                    > largely a part from the the old liberal/conservative
                    > divide. For this reason - if for no other - it is
                    > quite refreshing.
                    >
                    > It has more to do with sacramental Methodists and
                    > non-sacramental Methodists (for lack of a better
                    > title). In frontier times, Methodism did not practice
                    > communion regularly (maybe 4 times a year). Now a days
                    > it is more regular (most churches average about once a
                    > month). It was John Wesley's intention, however, that
                    > communion be served every Sunday.
                    >
                    > The problem is this: some find communion every
                    > Sunday to be "too Catholic" and they reject the
                    > notion. Others find it is good, right and true to do
                    > the Lord's Supper every Sunday because Christ asked us
                    > to do it in remembrance of him. Others endorse it
                    > precisely because it is the Catholic and Orthodoxy
                    > thing to do; the earliest church always help communion
                    > every Sunday.
                    >
                    > There is also some concern here for issues of
                    > contemporary worship. Most of our communion
                    > celebrations are not contemporary but look very
                    > Anglican since the liturgy was revised in 1989. So,
                    > some contemporary folks do not want "that kind" of
                    > liturgy celebrated in the church every sunday or even
                    > more often than it needs to be.
                    >
                    > Some of this is also the old devide between
                    > Methodists who have been more effected by the
                    > Calvinist elements of American culture and those who
                    > have retained more of Wesley's sacramentalism. Wesley
                    > believed that the Lord's Supper was not JUST a
                    > memorial but that Christ was really present in the
                    > bread and wine. He did not subscribe to
                    > transubstantiation or consubstantiation (both were
                    > unbiblical in his mind). But he did believe it was
                    > agains Scripture for Christ not to be the one who
                    > really and actually presides at the Communion Table.
                    > This is also "too Catholic" for many, who would like
                    > to see a doctrine which looks more like classical
                    > Reformed/Calvinist or Baptist views of a memorial
                    > feast.
                    >
                    > There are lots of issues here in this one and I look
                    > forward to the Church's spirited debate on this
                    > matter. I think worship is one of those things
                    > Methodists need to talk about much more than they
                    > fight about abortion or which party is more Christian.
                    >
                    >
                    > Andrew
                    >

                    Andrew,

                    I wonder if the real problem throughout the church is that we have
                    lost the meanning of "The Table." No matter what our interpretation
                    of views or how it is practiced I think we do not have a solid grip
                    on what it means. I think we might do a lot better if pastors went to
                    their pulpits and speak on the issue explaining everything as much as
                    they can about the sacrament, its history and meaning. I am also one
                    who thinks it would not be a bad idea to turn more toword a more
                    liturgical worship, at least in some ways. I know of a few COTNs who
                    are doing liturgical services now(KC, Mo 1st for example.) I
                    understand why most of us have been afraid of litugical worship and
                    its ritual formalism but as you pointed out it was familiar to Wesley
                    and I believe it is therefore apart of our spiritual genetic
                    structure and for this reason, if no other, we should at least be
                    opened to it in all churches that claim Wesley as their root.
                    (Just Noodling)

                    Tommy
                  • hamgears
                    Thanks for your comments, Andrew. That gives me some things to think about all right. Would it be all right with you if I quoted you on some of this when I
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
                      Thanks for your comments, Andrew. That gives me some things to think about
                      all right. Would it be all right with you if I quoted you on some of this when I
                      write an article on "renewal" for our newspaper here in Chico?
                      Larry
                    • Rev. Andrew B. Glos
                      I would be honored. Please think to send me a copy of the article for my archives when you are done. Andrew ... __________________________________ Do you
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 2, 2004
                        I would be honored. Please think to send me a copy
                        of the article for my archives when you are done.

                        Andrew

                        --- hamgears <lmitchell@...> wrote:
                        > Thanks for your comments, Andrew. That gives me
                        > some things to think about
                        > all right. Would it be all right with you if I
                        > quoted you on some of this when I
                        > write an article on "renewal" for our newspaper here
                        > in Chico?
                        > Larry


                        __________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
                        http://search.yahoo.com
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.