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post-trib pre-wrath

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  • DBee
    BIBLE PROPHECY: post-trib pre-wrath (from a Wesleyan prospective) An Explanation of These Terms The rapture is what is being located in the order of end time
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 1, 2003
      BIBLE PROPHECY: post-trib pre-wrath (from a Wesleyan prospective)

      An Explanation of These Terms

      The rapture is what is being located in the order of end time events
      with these short abbreviations. My position is post-trib, pre-wrath; if
      this is not yours, perhaps it would help you in the belief you do hold
      to understand the others and compare. And, faith cometh be hearing, and
      hearing from the word of God. And there are some who believe in multiple
      raptures and other who believe there is no rapture at all.

      Pre-tribs: they believe the rapture is first in the end time events,
      ---thus the Left Behind scenario, this is very widely held in America,
      its' appeal is great, "no hard times for me!"

      Post-tribs: they believe the rapture is not until the great tribulation
      is at its' peak, the very end, and this group splits into pre-wrath and

      Post-wraths believe that the rapture and Armageddon happen all at the
      same time, at the "last trump" (found in 1 Cor 15:52), and that the
      saints will have gone through the wrath of God on earth. The rapture
      for them is not really a rapture but a joining with Jesus who then comes
      to earth.

      Pre-wraths believe that after the rapture no one can be saved, and there
      is a time laps for God's wrath on the earth and the rest of mankind who
      took the Mark, climaxed at Armageddon. So the second coming is in two
      phases. The saved have a single coming of Jesus at the rapture, the
      lost have a single coming of Jesus at the revelation or Armageddon.

      Preterists believe nearly all Bible prophecy was fulfilled around 70AD.
      ---This is so untenable, I consider this belief subversive and
      detrimental and unwelcome. I can't help but think the people who promote
      this idea are from cultist and occultist groups. (I know, fairly certain
      some come from the Reformed thinking, their effort to keep God sovereign
      and themselves out of reach) Then, like one preacher said, "they (some)
      can take off their white dress shirt without unbuttoning the top

      Then there are the various millennial views, this, all because of the
      1,000 years mentioned only in Rev 20; premill: the rapture before the
      1,000 years; post-mill: the rapture after the 1,000 years; and amill: no
      millennium, these and myself believe Rev 20:1-10 is a review looking
      back over this world age, and that the phrase "1,000 years" is as a day,
      the day of the "last days," from Christ's victory on the cross / up to
      the releasing of Satan to deceive the nation near the very end.

      A list of various end time elements and high points are: the 1,000
      years, the destruction of Mystery Babylon, the Gog Magog war, the
      70th week, the confirmation of the covenant with many, "fulness of
      the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved," the Jewish
      temple, two witnesses, "the beast" (commonly called Antichrist),
      the world church - the false prophet, the 144,000, tribulation in
      general, the great tribulation, mark of the beast / abomination of
      desolation, rapture, the wrath of God, marriage supper,
      Armageddon, and final judgment. These are probably not all but are the
      one that come to mind.

      Our belief about God influences our individual view of end-time events

      So let's think about an individual's understanding (or philosophy) of
      religion, or our beliefs about God, that we take with us into our
      various views of "end-time" events. What belief about God are we
      allowing to interpret the end-time scriptures?

      Outside of Christianity, for example, there are the newage-gnostics.
      They believe God is a very impersonal cosmic force, Jesus was just a man
      and part of this force like everyone else. So the end-time for them
      does not exist, they just reincarnate over and over or mystically united
      somewhere some how. The real problem for them is they get their reading
      material from Seth the demon who is quite an unreliable witness to say
      the least. There are many that lead me to believe they base there
      beliefs on very nearly no more than an impression or a passing thought.

      But we are interested in Biblical prophecy. We receive our information
      from God, God "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom
      he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
      Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
      person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had
      by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on
      high; Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first
      begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth."

      Catholics, from what I've heard, have some "days of darkness" and very
      little else that I know about for their end-time teachings. They have a
      book of late that ridicules the rapture. When we talk about the various
      groups and their teachings we are referring to the official teachings or
      majority view, and recognize that there are many exceptions in every
      group. Now back to pre-trib, post-trib. Protestantism, it divides into
      two opposing camps of belief, the Calvinist and the Arminian. And when
      we refer to these groups it is to their original doctrinal beliefs.
      Church organizations can and have been infiltrated and subverted so that
      they no longer teach what their founders taught. And whole churches can
      be backslid or never "upslid," sad to say.

      The Calvinistic belief is governed by the simple phrase, "God is
      sovereign." He is so sovereign that, briefly: man cannot save himself,
      so God chooses certain people to be saved, he only died for these
      certain ones, they cannot decide their own fate, and once saved they
      cannot be lost. With that understanding, how would you expect them to
      look at the end times? How senseless for them to be confronted with or
      tested by having to reject the mark of the beast. Well the Bible says
      someone faces this mark, ---the Jews, ---yes, have the Jews do this
      after the rapture. And so we have pre-trib. In reality there is little
      or no scriptures able to be twisted into this error. They rely heavily
      on their human "authorities." Darby

      The other group is the Arminians. They believe that God is sovereign
      but also that his nature is holy-love. And he acts only in accord with
      his nature. To create beings capable of returning love and devotion and
      to be one with him as all lovers wish to be, they must have a time of
      testing and time to have worship experiences. So, it is up to all to
      choose correctly. Lucifer and all the angels had this same time of
      probation and now is man's turn. We take this understanding into the
      end-time chronology of events and come up with a different set of
      happenings. These two lines of thought are like keys, or a bias. When
      you read a scripture you say how does my view fit in here? If it
      doesn't, well, some will "make it fit." If it fits, things start
      opening up and becoming clearer, and one becomes more secure in their
      faith with a clear conscience.

      The common approach to prophecy wants to know: the events, the
      sequence or timing of these events, the players, and how will it all
      effect me. If one is looking for a no cross interpretation, may I say
      plainly, you will end up deceived. If one sees the way to eternal life
      is a narrow way with much opposition and suffering for Him, then you are
      right on. Jesus has been and marked the way for us.

      After my study and comparing my conclusions with
      others, I have found that I am a post-trib--prewrath
      advocate. Here is my look and understanding of the
      "others." Not to offend, but here is how it looks
      to me. Disclaimer (Everyone has every right to
      their own view of end-times and my conclusions may
      be wrong.) DBee

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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