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entire sanctification

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  • Matt <ublaz22@yahoo.com>
    Hey everyone, I added a section about entire sanctification to my website about a week ago. If anyone would like to check it out, the address is:
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Hey everyone,

      I added a section about entire sanctification to my website about a
      week ago. If anyone would like to check it out, the address is:
      http://www.angelfire.com/wi3/theology/

      In Christ,
      Matt
    • Craig L. Adams
      ... I liked it, Matt. Personally, I liked the fact that your presentation emphasized relevant scriptures -- and the pages looked great (as usual). When and if
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 4, 2003
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        on 3/1/03 11:05 AM, Matt <ublaz22@...> at ublaz22@... wrote:

        > Hey everyone,
        >
        > I added a section about entire sanctification to my website about a
        > week ago. If anyone would like to check it out, the address is:
        > http://www.angelfire.com/wi3/theology/

        I liked it, Matt. Personally, I liked the fact that your presentation
        emphasized relevant scriptures -- and the pages looked great (as usual).
        When and if I have some time later, I may make some editorial suggestions
        privately.

        But, I like it.

        --
        Craig L. Adams
        Weidman United Methodist Church
        http://www.gbgm-umc.org/weidman/
        Some Old Books from My Library
        http://homepage.mac.com/craigadams1/
      • res0cmfw@verizon.net
        I m still looking for a church affiliation... :-) I ve been in touch with a number of Eastern Orthodox Christians (Antiochian, OCA (Ortho. Church of America),
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 4, 2003
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          I'm still looking for a church affiliation... :-)

          I've been in touch with a number of Eastern Orthodox Christians
          (Antiochian, OCA (Ortho. Church of America), Russian, Greek,
          etc.) and they make a compelling argument, if not conclusive, that
          they stand in a direct line of Apostolic succession (i.e., the
          apostles laid hands on bishops and elders of the churches they
          started, who then laid hands on following generations); they
          interpret the Nicene Creed quite literally, stating that they ARE
          the "one holy catholic and Apostolic Church") Also, the Orthodox
          churches have not, so they claim, altered Church doctrine, "once
          and forever given," in two thousand years (obviously they have
          clarified points, and they would admit that).

          Now, perhaps because I'm a good American and offspring of
          Luther, so to speak, I struggle to agree with these fundamental
          points of Orthodoxy. I attended an Antiochian "divine liturgy" this
          last Sunday and found it to be beautiful, intellectually fascinating,
          biblically based, and true in spirit to the Word of God. But in
          talking to Orthodox believers, especially converts who always
          have more zeal than most, I want to vomit.

          Now they say I'm being sectarian and "looking for salvation"
          outside the Church if I contradict or challenge Church teachings;
          one chap even stated that he wasn't "qualified" to interpret
          scripture (and thus neither was I), because interpretation is the
          possession of "godly men" who came before us, within Orthodoxy,
          over the centuries -- in other words, only the Church (whatever
          that is) can interpret scripture.

          I can't tell you how that makes my skin crawl. I had no idea I was
          such a genetic Protestant. But that leaves me with something of a
          problem. How do you think we Protestant "schismatics" can claim
          to hold to the Nicene Creed, with regard to the Apostolic
          succession of authority by the laying on of hands? Of course,
          there is scriptural reference to counter the Orthodox on this point,
          Luke 9: 46-50, but this passage is also a challenge to the Nicene
          Creed itself (no matter who follows it); by that I mean, anyone
          holding to it must grapple with the ramifications of Jesus blessing
          those who were doing His work outside of the Apostles' authority.

          Much appreciation if you can give me some of your thoughts... :-)

          MarkP

          "Then there arose a reasoning among them,
          which of them should be greatest. And Jesus,
          perceiving the thought of their heart, took
          a child, and set him by him. And said unto
          them, Whosoever shall receive this child in
          my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall
          receive me receiveth him that sent me: for
          he that is least among you all, the same shall
          be great. And John answered and said, Master,
          we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and
          we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
          And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he
          that is not against us is for us."
          Luke 9: 46-50
        • Craig L. Adams
          ... I ve never studied Eastern Orthodoxy. A quite evangelical colleague here in West Michigan converted to Eastern Orthodoxy several years ago. I know many
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 4, 2003
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            on 3/4/03 4:26 PM, res0cmfw@... at res0cmfw@... wrote:

            > Now they say I'm being sectarian and "looking for salvation"
            > outside the Church if I contradict or challenge Church teachings;
            > one chap even stated that he wasn't "qualified" to interpret
            > scripture (and thus neither was I), because interpretation is the
            > possession of "godly men" who came before us, within Orthodoxy,
            > over the centuries -- in other words, only the Church (whatever
            > that is) can interpret scripture.
            >
            > I can't tell you how that makes my skin crawl. I had no idea I was
            > such a genetic Protestant. But that leaves me with something of a
            > problem. How do you think we Protestant "schismatics" can claim
            > to hold to the Nicene Creed, with regard to the Apostolic
            > succession of authority by the laying on of hands? Of course,
            > there is scriptural reference to counter the Orthodox on this point,
            > Luke 9: 46-50, but this passage is also a challenge to the Nicene
            > Creed itself (no matter who follows it); by that I mean, anyone
            > holding to it must grapple with the ramifications of Jesus blessing
            > those who were doing His work outside of the Apostles' authority.

            I've never studied Eastern Orthodoxy. A quite evangelical colleague here in
            West Michigan converted to Eastern Orthodoxy several years ago. I know many
            people who are drawn to it.

            Randy L. Maddox in his (excellent) book _Responsible Grace: John Wesley's
            Practical Theology_ (1994) demonstrates many similarities between Wesley's
            theology and the theology of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think this similarity is
            due to Wesley's early studies in the Ante-Nicene Greek Fathers. Theodore
            Runyon also emphasizes this point in his book _The New Creation: John
            Wesley's Theology Today_ (1998).

            > Now they say I'm being sectarian and "looking for salvation"
            > outside the Church if I contradict or challenge Church teachings;

            I would be very, very, very uncomfortable with this. Anyway, it seems to me
            that Paul felt he could challenge the teaching authority of Peter according
            to what I read in Galatians. Peter was an apostle before him in time, and an
            actual, historical disciple of Christ.

            The apostolic teaching seems far more important to me than any "apostolic
            succession." The apostolic Gospel, the apostolic experience of faith, the
            apostolic teaching: this is what is vital. Not: Jesus laid hands on Peter
            who laid hands on Mark who laid hands on whoever... and so on and so on and
            so on....

            But, anyway, I *am* in apostolic succession. (Hey, I can afford to be
            generous on this point.) I was ordained by Bishop Edsel Ammons. He, in turn,
            was ordained by another Methodist Bishop who was ordained by another...
            going back to Thomas Coke who was ordained by John Wesley who was ordained
            by the Anglican clergy... who were ordained by the Roman Catholic clergy...
            who were ordained by Peter who was ordained by Christ. There you go.
            Apostolic Succession. :-)

            --
            Craig L. Adams
            Weidman United Methodist Church
            http://www.gbgm-umc.org/weidman/
            Some Old Books from My Library
            http://homepage.mac.com/craigadams1/
          • Paul Weary
            MarkP wrote: How do you think we Protestant schismatics can claim to hold to the Nicene Creed, with regard to the Apostolic succession of authority by the
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 7, 2003
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              MarkP wrote:

              "How do you think we Protestant "schismatics" can claim
              to hold to the Nicene Creed, with regard to the Apostolic
              succession of authority by the laying on of hands?"

              I don't really see the problem. It's a big jump from 'I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church' to 'the Apostolic
              succession of authority by the laying on of hands'.

              The question is: what does it mean to be part of the 'catholic and apostolic church'? Your Orthodox friends have one understanding of this, but Protestantism responds that institutional continuity is no guarantee of adherence to the catholic and apostolic faith. Schism is sometimes the lesser of two evils.

              Shalom,

              --
              Paul Weary
              croydon, UK



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