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Aluminum welding for aircraft

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  • Don McDonald
    Hi to the group We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here. The
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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      Hi to the group

      We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
      fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
      The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
      bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
      instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
      T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
      custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
      you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
      work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
      bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
      welding?

      DonM
    • pupdieselluv
      Something to consider would be if you did weld it would you be able to obtain an airworthiness certificate for the craft? (versus the original approved design)
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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        Something to consider would be if you did weld it would you be able
        to obtain an airworthiness certificate for the craft? (versus the
        original approved design)
        Eric


        --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com, "Don McDonald"
        <donmcdonald@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi to the group
        >
        > We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
        > fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question
        here.
        > The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
        > bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
        > instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose
        the
        > T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe.
        But
        > custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames.
        Can
        > you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
        > work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda
        sport
        > bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
        > welding?
        >
        > DonM
        >
      • joe westbrook
        Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec s website. There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
          "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

          Don McDonald <donmcdonald@...> wrote:
          Hi to the group

          We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
          fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
          The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
          bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
          instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
          T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
          custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
          you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
          work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
          bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
          welding?

          DonM



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          in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

        • Don McDonald
          Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn t see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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            Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn't see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on what happens to the T6 rating when 6061 is welded.  Does the heat destroy the T6 temper? Can it be recovered with some form of heat treatment? Or does the aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know that many alloys have to sit at a certain temperature, usually just room temperature, to attain their final rating. Aluminum is very different from steel in terms of tempering and strength.
             
            Don
            -----Original Message-----
            From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of joe westbrook
            Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56 PM
            To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

            Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
            "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

            Don McDonald <donmcdonald@...> wrote:
            Hi to the group

            We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
            fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
            The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
            bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
            instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
            T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
            custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
            you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
            work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
            bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
            welding?

            DonM



            Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
            in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

          • joe westbrook
            Yeah I found it on their site. It was about which fillers to use to maintain stability. I will try to find the link when I get home. Don McDonald
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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              Yeah I found it on their site. It was about which fillers to use to maintain stability. I will try to find the link when I get home.

              Don McDonald <donmcdonald@...> wrote:
              Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn't see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on what happens to the T6 rating when 6061 is welded.  Does the heat destroy the T6 temper? Can it be recovered with some form of heat treatment? Or does the aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know that many alloys have to sit at a certain temperature, usually just room temperature, to attain their final rating. Aluminum is very different from steel in terms of tempering and strength.
               
              Don
              -----Original Message-----
              From: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:welding_ group@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf Of joe westbrook
              Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56 PM
              To: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

              Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
              "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

              Don McDonald <donmcdonald@ xplornet. com> wrote:
              Hi to the group

              We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
              fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
              The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
              bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
              instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
              T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
              custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
              you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
              work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
              bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
              welding?

              DonM



              Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
              in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.


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              with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

            • Blaine
              The T6 temper is solution heat treated and artificially aged. It is done for precipation hardenable alloys, i.e. alloys with a fine dispersion of very small
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                The T6 temper is solution heat treated and artificially aged. It is done for precipation hardenable alloys, i.e. alloys with a fine dispersion of very small precipitates which contribute to the strength and hardness. The part is heated until all of the precipitate phase is dissolved, then the part is cooled rapidly and reheated to a low temperature and held for some time to promote the controlled growth of the precipitate phase. The time and temperature are critical in determining the mechanical properties.

                When welded, the T6 temper is definitely destroyed in the heat affected zone. It can be recovered, but the entire welded part then has to go through a heating, holding, quenching and reheating & aging cycle, which would be impractical for a large part. That's probably why it was specified to be bolted.

                I suppose you could size the material and the joint to allow for the strength loss in the HAZ that occurs with welding.

                http://www.aluminum.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4228

                Don McDonald wrote:

                Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn't see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on what happens to the T6 rating when 6061 is welded.  Does the heat destroy the T6 temper? Can it be recovered with some form of heat treatment? Or does the aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know that many alloys have to sit at a certain temperature, usually just room temperature, to attain their final rating. Aluminum is very different from steel in terms of tempering and strength.
                 
                Don
                -----Original Message-----
                From: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:welding_ group@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf Of joe westbrook
                Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56 PM
                To: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

                Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
                "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

                Don McDonald <donmcdonald@ xplornet. com> wrote:
                Hi to the group

                We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
                fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
                The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
                bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
                instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
                T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
                custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
                you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
                work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
                bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
                welding?

                DonM



                Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

              • Don Saito
                Hi all, Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small TIG welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  Hi all,
                   
                  Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small TIG welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K? (Here's their web page on it: http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760)
                   
                  What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the infrastructure or room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if possible, to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless steel up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                   
                  Thanks for any info you can impart!
                   
                  Don Saito
                  Oakland, CA
                • Don McDonald
                  This whole discussion on the aircraft group started with the observation that most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames, as do many custom hot rods and
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                    This whole discussion on the aircraft  group started with the observation that most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames, as do many custom hot rods and race cars. If welded aluminum is okay for these applications, it would certainly work for a small aircraft. Does anyone know what alloys are used for automotive frames? I don't think that they are treated in any way after welding, other than aging.
                     
                    DonM
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Blaine
                    Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:50 PM
                    To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

                    The T6 temper is solution heat treated and artificially aged. It is done for precipation hardenable alloys, i.e. alloys with a fine dispersion of very small precipitates which contribute to the strength and hardness. The part is heated until all of the precipitate phase is dissolved, then the part is cooled rapidly and reheated to a low temperature and held for some time to promote the controlled growth of the precipitate phase. The time and temperature are critical in determining the mechanical properties.

                    When welded, the T6 temper is definitely destroyed in the heat affected zone. It can be recovered, but the entire welded part then has to go through a heating, holding, quenching and reheating & aging cycle, which would be impractical for a large part. That's probably why it was specified to be bolted.

                    I suppose you could size the material and the joint to allow for the strength loss in the HAZ that occurs with welding.

                    http://www.aluminum.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4228

                    Don McDonald wrote:

                    Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn't see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on what happens to the T6 rating when 6061 is welded.  Does the heat destroy the T6 temper? Can it be recovered with some form of heat treatment? Or does the aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know that many alloys have to sit at a certain temperature, usually just room temperature, to attain their final rating. Aluminum is very different from steel in terms of tempering and strength.
                     
                    Don
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:welding_ group@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf Of joe westbrook
                    Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56 PM
                    To: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

                    Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
                    "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

                    Don McDonald <donmcdonald@ xplornet. com> wrote:
                    Hi to the group

                    We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
                    fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
                    The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
                    bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
                    instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
                    T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
                    custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
                    you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
                    work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
                    bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
                    welding?

                    DonM



                    Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                    in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

                  • Blaine
                    I m not saying you can t do it. I m just saying that the T6 temper is destroyed in the region of the weld. That means the material in the weld vicinity will be
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm just saying that the T6 temper is destroyed in the region of the weld. That means the material in the weld vicinity will be weaker after welding than it was before, but you could take that into account in designing the joint.

                      It isn't the alloy that matters. It's the temper. You can certainly weld 6061, but if it's 6061-T6, just don't expect it to be T6 at the joint after you weld it. The same is true for any alloy with a T6 temper.
                       
                      Isn't 2024 aluminum used a lot in aircraft? It has higher strength than 6061.


                      Blaine

                      Don McDonald wrote:

                      This whole discussion on the aircraft  group started with the observation that most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames, as do many custom hot rods and race cars. If welded aluminum is okay for these applications, it would certainly work for a small aircraft. Does anyone know what alloys are used for automotive frames? I don't think that they are treated in any way after welding, other than aging.
                       
                      DonM
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:welding_ group@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf Of Blaine
                      Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:50 PM
                      To: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

                      The T6 temper is solution heat treated and artificially aged. It is done for precipation hardenable alloys, i.e. alloys with a fine dispersion of very small precipitates which contribute to the strength and hardness. The part is heated until all of the precipitate phase is dissolved, then the part is cooled rapidly and reheated to a low temperature and held for some time to promote the controlled growth of the precipitate phase. The time and temperature are critical in determining the mechanical properties.

                      When welded, the T6 temper is definitely destroyed in the heat affected zone. It can be recovered, but the entire welded part then has to go through a heating, holding, quenching and reheating & aging cycle, which would be impractical for a large part. That's probably why it was specified to be bolted.

                      I suppose you could size the material and the joint to allow for the strength loss in the HAZ that occurs with welding.

                      http://www.aluminum .org/Template. cfm?Section= Home&template=/ContentMa nagement/ ContentDisplay. cfm&ContentID=4228

                      Don McDonald wrote:
                      Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I looked but didn't see anything. Or did you submit a question to them? I would be interested in their comments on what happens to the T6 rating when 6061 is welded.  Does the heat destroy the T6 temper? Can it be recovered with some form of heat treatment? Or does the aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know that many alloys have to sit at a certain temperature, usually just room temperature, to attain their final rating. Aluminum is very different from steel in terms of tempering and strength.
                       
                      Don
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:welding_ group@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf Of joe westbrook
                      Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56 PM
                      To: welding_group@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding for aircraft

                      Looking on the net just to be sure. I found this on alcotec's website.
                      "There are many aluminum base materials that can be welded successfully with any number of different filler alloys. The base alloy referenced in the above question, 6061-T6 for instance, is commonly welded with at least four totally different filler alloys and can be welded successfully with even more."

                      Don McDonald <donmcdonald@ xplornet. com> wrote:
                      Hi to the group

                      We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
                      fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
                      The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
                      bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
                      instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
                      T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
                      custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
                      you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
                      work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
                      bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
                      welding?

                      DonM



                      Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                      in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.


                  • Jerry Smith
                    Yes, 2024 is stronger and better for aviation uses, but I let my FBO Service tell me what I can do and can t do, plus what the law requires inspections, thus
                    Message 10 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      Yes, 2024 is stronger and better for aviation uses,
                      but I let my FBO Service tell me what I can do and
                      can't do, plus what the law requires inspections, thus
                      best left up to the service.

                      Jerry

                      --- Blaine <canine@...> wrote:

                      > I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm just saying that
                      > the T6 temper is
                      > destroyed in the region of the weld. That means the
                      > material in the weld
                      > vicinity will be weaker after welding than it was
                      > before, but you could
                      > take that into account in designing the joint.
                      >
                      > It isn't the alloy that matters. It's the temper.
                      > You can certainly weld
                      > 6061, but if it's 6061-T6, just don't expect it to
                      > be T6 at the joint
                      > after you weld it. The same is true for any alloy
                      > with a T6 temper.
                      >
                      > Isn't 2024 aluminum used a lot in aircraft? It has
                      > higher strength than
                      > 6061.
                      >
                      >
                      > Blaine
                      >
                      > Don McDonald wrote:
                      >
                      > > This whole discussion on the aircraft group
                      > started with the
                      > > observation that most sport bikes have welded
                      > aluminum frames, as do
                      > > many custom hot rods and race cars. If welded
                      > aluminum is okay for
                      > > these applications, it would certainly work for a
                      > small aircraft. Does
                      > > anyone know what alloys are used for automotive
                      > frames? I don't think
                      > > that they are treated in any way after welding,
                      > other than aging.
                      > >
                      > > DonM
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On
                      > Behalf Of Blaine
                      > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:50 PM
                      > > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum welding
                      > for aircraft
                      > >
                      > > The T6 temper is solution heat treated and
                      > artificially aged. It
                      > > is done for precipation hardenable alloys,
                      > i.e. alloys with a fine
                      > > dispersion of very small precipitates which
                      > contribute to the
                      > > strength and hardness. The part is heated
                      > until all of the
                      > > precipitate phase is dissolved, then the part
                      > is cooled rapidly
                      > > and reheated to a low temperature and held for
                      > some time to
                      > > promote the controlled growth of the
                      > precipitate phase. The time
                      > > and temperature are critical in determining
                      > the mechanical properties.
                      > >
                      > > When welded, the T6 temper is definitely
                      > destroyed in the heat
                      > > affected zone. It can be recovered, but the
                      > entire welded part
                      > > then has to go through a heating, holding,
                      > quenching and reheating
                      > > & aging cycle, which would be impractical for
                      > a large part. That's
                      > > probably why it was specified to be bolted.
                      > >
                      > > I suppose you could size the material and the
                      > joint to allow for
                      > > the strength loss in the HAZ that occurs with
                      > welding.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://www.aluminum.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4228
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Don McDonald wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Hi. Did you find this on their web site? I
                      > looked but didn't see
                      > >> anything. Or did you submit a question to
                      > them? I would be
                      > >> interested in their comments on what happens
                      > to the T6 rating
                      > >> when 6061 is welded. Does the heat destroy
                      > the T6 temper? Can it
                      > >> be recovered with some form of heat
                      > treatment? Or does the
                      > >> aluminum regain its temper from aging? I know
                      > that many alloys
                      > >> have to sit at a certain temperature, usually
                      > just room
                      > >> temperature, to attain their final rating.
                      > Aluminum is very
                      > >> different from steel in terms of tempering
                      > and strength.
                      > >>
                      > >> Don
                      > >>
                      > >> -----Original Message-----
                      > >> From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On
                      > Behalf Of joe westbrook
                      > >> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:56
                      > PM
                      > >> To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> Subject: Re: [welding_group] Aluminum
                      > welding for aircraft
                      > >>
                      > >> Looking on the net just to be sure. I
                      > found this on alcotec's
                      > >> website.
                      > >> "There are many aluminum base materials
                      > that can be welded
                      > >> successfully with any number of different
                      > filler alloys. The
                      > >> base alloy referenced in the above
                      > question, 6061-T6 for
                      > >> instance, is commonly welded with at
                      > least four totally
                      > >> different filler alloys and can be welded
                      > successfully with
                      > >> even more."
                      > >>
                      > >> Don McDonald <donmcdonald@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> Hi to the group
                      > >>
                      > >> We have been discussing aluminum
                      > welding for an
                      > >> ultralight aircraft
                      > >> fuselage on another group and I
                      > thought I would ask the
                      > >> question here.
                      > >> The design in question uses 2X2 inch
                      > square 6061 T6
                      > >> aluminum tube
                      > >> bolted together with gussets. The
                      > question is, could you
                      > >> weld it
                      > >> instead? Many on the group say the
                      > heating would cause
                      > >> you to loose the
                      > >> T6 temper in the aluminum and the
                      > weld joints would not
                      > >> be safe. But
                      > >> custom hot rods and most sport bikes
                      > have welded aluminum
                      > >> frames. Can
                      > >> you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is
                      > there another alloy
                      > >> that would
                      > >> work? How do they make those massive
                      > aluminum frames on
                      > >> the Honda sport
                      > >> bikes? They are all welded. Or are
                      > they heat treated
                      > >> again after
                      > >> welding?
                      > >>
                      > >> DonM
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >> Food fight?
                      > >>
                      >
                      <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask&sid=396545367>
                      > >> Enjoy some healthy debate
                      > >> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
                      > >>
                      >
                      <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask&sid=396545367>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • MazdaMulishaFool
                      They TIG weld 6061 t6 aircraft aluminum all the time. That s what aircraft grade welders are for. It s all xrayed and shiot. Dave I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE
                      Message 11 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                        They TIG weld 6061 t6 aircraft aluminum all the time. That's what aircraft grade welders are for.
                        It's all xrayed and shiot. Dave


                        I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT BIKES... I LOVE STREET BIKES... I LOVE ME SOME HOO-HOO...AND REMEMBER....IF THE GRASS AIN'T GROWIN OUT FRONT, GO AROUND BACK AND PLAY IN THE MUD!
                        "My Jimmy Hat's torn and i don't care...my Jimmy Hat's torn and I don't care...."



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                      • MazdaMulishaFool
                        Not sure, but if done PROPERLY an aluminum welded joint is atleast as strong as a bolted aluminum joint, if not stronger. Dave I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT
                        Message 12 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
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                          Not sure, but if done PROPERLY an aluminum welded joint is atleast as strong as a bolted aluminum
                          joint, if not stronger. Dave


                          I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT BIKES... I LOVE STREET BIKES... I LOVE ME SOME HOO-HOO...AND REMEMBER....IF THE GRASS AIN'T GROWIN OUT FRONT, GO AROUND BACK AND PLAY IN THE MUD!
                          "My Jimmy Hat's torn and i don't care...my Jimmy Hat's torn and I don't care...."



                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                          with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                          http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
                        • C. J. Frederick
                          Welding of 6061 is done all the time. Usually the filler is 5356 alloy but there are others that work. 6061 is a heat treatable alloy and the welding heat
                          Message 13 of 26 , Feb 1, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Welding of 6061 is done all the time. Usually the filler is 5356
                            alloy but there are others that work. 6061 is a heat treatable alloy
                            and the welding heat will anneal it to about 17K tensile from the
                            heat treated tensile that is in the high 20Ks to low 30Ks. The 50
                            series fillers are non heat treatable alloys so the welds themselves
                            will still be have adequate strength. The problem is the strength
                            reduction in the heat affected zone (HAZ) next to the weld in the
                            6061. 6061 gains strength from heat treating, being stressed and
                            aging. It will regain some of its strength from aging even at room
                            temperature. There are time/temperature charts that will provide the
                            information. If the welds are in low stress areas or the weld joints
                            are designed for the strength loss, it is not a problem. 6061 is the
                            main alloy used for extrusions like the 2" x 2" tubing you
                            mentioned. A common non heat treatable alloy used for fabrication is
                            5052. This is sometimes called marine grade as it has good corrosion
                            resistance, has high strength and it does not lose strength from the
                            weld heat. I am pretty sure the motorcycle frames you mentioned are
                            made of castings that fit together so the welds are not in high
                            stress areas. They are sized so they can be heat treated after
                            welding. Bolted connections also have disadvantages. The joints are
                            usually heavier due to the bolts and extra material to resist the
                            crush, there is the potential for corrosion between the aluminum and
                            the steel bolts (SS is worst) and there is always the potential for
                            vibration loosening. Hope this helps. CJ


                            >We have been discussing aluminum welding for an ultralight aircraft
                            >fuselage on another group and I thought I would ask the question here.
                            >The design in question uses 2X2 inch square 6061 T6 aluminum tube
                            >bolted together with gussets. The question is, could you weld it
                            >instead? Many on the group say the heating would cause you to loose the
                            >T6 temper in the aluminum and the weld joints would not be safe. But
                            >custom hot rods and most sport bikes have welded aluminum frames. Can
                            >you weld 6061 safely, and if not, is there another alloy that would
                            >work? How do they make those massive aluminum frames on the Honda sport
                            >bikes? They are all welded. Or are they heat treated again after
                            >welding?
                            >
                            >DonM
                          • pupdieselluv
                            Agree. But for THAT particular aircraft does the design and thus the air worithness certificate qualification allow for welding in specific places? What I m
                            Message 14 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Agree. But for THAT particular aircraft does the design and thus the
                              air worithness certificate qualification allow for welding in
                              specific places?
                              What I'm getting at is staying within the regulation so that you
                              don't jeapordize your insurance coverage (if applicable).
                              No argument witht he various discussions on temper, treatments,
                              strength etc...but what is allowed by the folks who clear you for
                              flying?
                              Best wishes,
                              Eric
                              --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com, MazdaMulishaFool <turbo38t@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Not sure, but if done PROPERLY an aluminum welded joint is atleast
                              as strong as a bolted aluminum
                              > joint, if not stronger. Dave
                              >
                              >
                              > I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT BIKES... I LOVE STREET BIKES... I
                              LOVE ME SOME HOO-HOO...AND REMEMBER....IF THE GRASS AIN'T GROWIN OUT
                              FRONT, GO AROUND BACK AND PLAY IN THE MUD!
                              > "My Jimmy Hat's torn and i don't care...my Jimmy Hat's torn
                              and I don't care...."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              ______________
                              > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                              > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                              > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
                              >
                            • Don McDonald
                              As a homebuilt aircraft, there is a lot of latitude in what you can do. If you design your own, or build from plans, you can do whatever you want. The
                              Message 15 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                As a homebuilt aircraft, there is a lot of latitude in what you can do. If
                                you design your own, or build from plans, you can do whatever you want. The
                                ultralight that we are discussing is wide open for modification. Builders
                                are trying different landing gear variations, lots of different engines and
                                mounting techniques, different wing options, and so on. Welding the fuselage
                                frame would be acceptable if done properly. There is no legal concern to
                                welding a fuse together as opposed to bolting it.

                                DonM


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pupdieselluv
                                Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:31 AM
                                To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [welding_group] Re: Aluminum welding for aircraft


                                Agree. But for THAT particular aircraft does the design and thus the
                                air worithness certificate qualification allow for welding in
                                specific places?
                                What I'm getting at is staying within the regulation so that you
                                don't jeapordize your insurance coverage (if applicable).
                                No argument witht he various discussions on temper, treatments,
                                strength etc...but what is allowed by the folks who clear you for
                                flying?
                                Best wishes,
                                Eric
                                --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com, MazdaMulishaFool <turbo38t@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Not sure, but if done PROPERLY an aluminum welded joint is atleast
                                as strong as a bolted aluminum
                                > joint, if not stronger. Dave
                                >
                                >
                                > I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT BIKES... I LOVE STREET BIKES... I
                                LOVE ME SOME HOO-HOO...AND REMEMBER....IF THE GRASS AIN'T GROWIN OUT
                                FRONT, GO AROUND BACK AND PLAY IN THE MUD!
                                > "My Jimmy Hat's torn and i don't care...my Jimmy Hat's torn
                                and I don't care...."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ______________________________________________________________________
                                ______________
                                > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                                > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                                > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
                                >





                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Ken
                                Eric, If you are talking about modifying the design of an experimental aircraft your best source for information would probably be an EAA technical councilor.
                                Message 16 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Eric, If you are talking about modifying the design of an experimental
                                  aircraft your best source for information would probably be an EAA
                                  technical councilor. I believe with an experimental aircraft you can
                                  use about any construction method you want all you have to do is
                                  convince the inspector that signs your airworthiness certificate that it
                                  is safe.

                                  Ken

                                  pupdieselluv wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Agree. But for THAT particular aircraft does the design and thus the
                                  > air worithness certificate qualification allow for welding in
                                  > specific places?
                                  > What I'm getting at is staying within the regulation so that you
                                  > don't jeapordize your insurance coverage (if applicable).
                                  > No argument witht he various discussions on temper, treatments,
                                  > strength etc...but what is allowed by the folks who clear you for
                                  > flying?
                                  > Best wishes,
                                  > Eric
                                  > --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>, MazdaMulishaFool <turbo38t@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Not sure, but if done PROPERLY an aluminum welded joint is atleast
                                  > as strong as a bolted aluminum
                                  > > joint, if not stronger. Dave
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I LOVE MINITRUCKS...i LOVE DIRT BIKES... I LOVE STREET BIKES... I
                                  > LOVE ME SOME HOO-HOO...AND REMEMBER....IF THE GRASS AIN'T GROWIN OUT
                                  > FRONT, GO AROUND BACK AND PLAY IN THE MUD!
                                  > > "My Jimmy Hat's torn and i don't care...my Jimmy Hat's torn
                                  > and I don't care...."
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                  > ______________
                                  > > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                                  > > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                                  > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
                                  > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Don
                                  150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily weld 1/4 material just be aware of the duty cycle.
                                  Message 17 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily weld 1/4" material just be
                                    aware of the duty cycle.



                                    --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi all,
                                    >
                                    > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small TIG
                                    > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                    > (Here's their web page on it:
                                    > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760)
                                    >
                                    > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the infrastructure or
                                    > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if possible,
                                    > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless steel
                                    > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                    >
                                    > Don Saito
                                    > Oakland, CA
                                    >
                                  • Don Saito
                                    Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider acquiring one of these. Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments
                                    Message 18 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider acquiring
                                      one of these.

                                      Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments about
                                      their capabilities?

                                      Thanks!

                                      Don Saito
                                      Oakland, CA

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]
                                      On Behalf Of Don
                                      Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:12 PM
                                      To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                      150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily weld 1/4"
                                      material just be aware of the duty cycle.

                                      --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...> wrote:
                                      > Hi all,
                                      > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small TIG
                                      > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                      > (Here's their web page on it:
                                      > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760)
                                      > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the infrastructure or
                                      > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if
                                      possible,
                                      > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless
                                      steel
                                      > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                      > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                      > Don Saito
                                      > Oakland, CA
                                    • Bill Rubenstein
                                      I m going to take a chance and reply here -- first post to the group. I m no great shakes as a TIG welder (self taught) but have done a lot of it on mild steel
                                      Message 19 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I'm going to take a chance and reply here -- first post to the group.
                                        I'm no great shakes as a TIG welder (self taught) but have done a lot of
                                        it on mild steel in the last few years. I bought a cheap power source,
                                        no argon valve or anything, and it worked ok but was scratch start, no
                                        amp control, and manual argon control which is a big pain. Also, it was
                                        DC only so Alum. was out.

                                        I've now bought myself an HTP Invertig 201
                                        (http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html) which is a
                                        real machine. It has HF start, lift start if you can't use HF, DC, AC
                                        with lots of options, and I can weld pretty close to 100 percent duty
                                        cycle at 150 amps without a problem. I've run about 55 ft of bead in
                                        the last 4 days I'm using a hand amp control with slider (works better
                                        for me) but you can get a foot pedal control. I think this is a real
                                        machine with which you can do real work and it costs a lot less than the
                                        one you are looking at.

                                        It is 220 v only and is heavier than the one you are considering,
                                        although at 68 lbs it is not a problem to move -- these inverter
                                        machines are great. My first welder was an old 390 amp Hobart stick
                                        welder, 3 phase input, which probably weighed 800 lbs.

                                        If any more experienced welders have this machine, I'd like to hear
                                        their opinions of it -- I think it is just dandy.

                                        The reason I joined the group was to get some advice, not give it. But,
                                        I'll save that for another day when I have a chance to go through the
                                        archives.

                                        Bill

                                        Don Saito wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider acquiring
                                        > one of these.
                                        >
                                        > Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments about
                                        > their capabilities?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks!
                                        >
                                        > Don Saito
                                        > Oakland, CA
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                        > On Behalf Of Don
                                        > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:12 PM
                                        > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Subject: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                        > 150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily weld 1/4"
                                        > material just be aware of the duty cycle.
                                        >
                                        > --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > Hi all,
                                        > > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy
                                        > small TIG
                                        > > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                        > > (Here's their web page on it:
                                        > >
                                        > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                        > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>)
                                        > > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the
                                        > infrastructure or
                                        > > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if
                                        > possible,
                                        > > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless
                                        > steel
                                        > > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                        > > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                        > > Don Saito
                                        > > Oakland, CA
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • C. J. Frederick
                                        I have an earlier version of that unit. It is 175 amp AC/DC square wave TIG/Stick. It does not have all the features the newer model does but is a great
                                        Message 20 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I have an earlier version of that unit.  It is 175 amp AC/DC square wave TIG/Stick.  It does not have all the features the newer model does but is a great machine.  It has a very stable arc at low amperages (AC or DC) and will put out enough power to weld 1/4 aluminum plate with ease.  Easy arc starting with the HF too.  Plenty of power to weld steel and SS to 3/8".  I upgraded the torch to water cooled as the one that came with it got overheated in high amperage AC operation.  Don't take the list price to seriously.  There is probably a lot of dealer markup.  Check the Internet for street prices. 
                                          CJ

                                          Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small TIG welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K? (Here's their web page on it: http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760 )
                                           
                                          What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the infrastructure or room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if possible, to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless steel up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                           
                                          Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                           
                                          Don Saito

                                        • Ken
                                          What I have seen this is a great machine. I think you can get if for less than $4K if you shop around.
                                          Message 21 of 26 , Feb 2, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            What I have seen this is a great machine. I think you can get if for
                                            less than $4K if you shop around.

                                            Don Saito wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi all,
                                            >
                                            > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy small
                                            > TIG welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for
                                            > $4K? (Here's their web page on it:
                                            > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                            > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>)
                                            >
                                            > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the
                                            > infrastructure or room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but
                                            > would be able, if possible, to do frame work for light-weight
                                            > trailers, or aluminium and stainless steel up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                            >
                                            > Don Saito
                                            > Oakland, CA
                                            >
                                          • Don McDonald
                                            Bill That looks like a great little welder. I dearly want a Tig. I was impressed by their description of the ability to retain a sharp point under AC by using
                                            Message 22 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Bill

                                              That looks like a great little welder. I dearly want a Tig. I was impressed
                                              by their description of the ability to retain a sharp point under AC by
                                              using a low tungsten content electrode and the appropriate settings on the
                                              machine. Not sure how this "lift mode" works. How can you strike the arc
                                              without HF?

                                              Seems to have pulse mode built in for thin sheet Al. How do you think it
                                              would work for thin stainless?

                                              Who has the best price on this unit?

                                              DonM

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill Rubenstein
                                              Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:41 PM
                                              To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?


                                              I'm going to take a chance and reply here -- first post to the group.
                                              I'm no great shakes as a TIG welder (self taught) but have done a lot of
                                              it on mild steel in the last few years. I bought a cheap power source,
                                              no argon valve or anything, and it worked ok but was scratch start, no
                                              amp control, and manual argon control which is a big pain. Also, it was
                                              DC only so Alum. was out.

                                              I've now bought myself an HTP Invertig 201
                                              (http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html) which is a
                                              real machine. It has HF start, lift start if you can't use HF, DC, AC
                                              with lots of options, and I can weld pretty close to 100 percent duty
                                              cycle at 150 amps without a problem. I've run about 55 ft of bead in
                                              the last 4 days I'm using a hand amp control with slider (works better
                                              for me) but you can get a foot pedal control. I think this is a real
                                              machine with which you can do real work and it costs a lot less than the
                                              one you are looking at.

                                              It is 220 v only and is heavier than the one you are considering,
                                              although at 68 lbs it is not a problem to move -- these inverter
                                              machines are great. My first welder was an old 390 amp Hobart stick
                                              welder, 3 phase input, which probably weighed 800 lbs.

                                              If any more experienced welders have this machine, I'd like to hear
                                              their opinions of it -- I think it is just dandy.

                                              The reason I joined the group was to get some advice, not give it. But,
                                              I'll save that for another day when I have a chance to go through the
                                              archives.

                                              Bill

                                              Don Saito wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider acquiring
                                              > one of these.
                                              >
                                              > Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments about
                                              > their capabilities?
                                              >
                                              > Thanks!
                                              >
                                              > Don Saito
                                              > Oakland, CA
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                              > On Behalf Of Don
                                              > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:12 PM
                                              > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Subject: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                              > 150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily weld 1/4"
                                              > material just be aware of the duty cycle.
                                              >
                                              > --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > Hi all,
                                              > > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy
                                              > small TIG
                                              > > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                              > > (Here's their web page on it:
                                              > >
                                              > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                              > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>)
                                              > > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the
                                              > infrastructure or
                                              > > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if
                                              > possible,
                                              > > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless
                                              > steel
                                              > > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                              > > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                              > > Don Saito
                                              > > Oakland, CA
                                              >
                                              >



                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Bill Rubenstein
                                              As far as I know, HTP America is the only place to buy it -- out of the Chicago area. They have a lot of good references (both the company and the machine) on
                                              Message 23 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                As far as I know, HTP America is the only place to buy it -- out of the
                                                Chicago area. They have a lot of good references (both the company and
                                                the machine) on the net, and sometimes sell 'used' machines through ebay
                                                (they've been used in their classroom for a few days). They never go
                                                for any bargain prices I think. I ordered one afternoon, they shipped
                                                that afternoon via LTL truck, and I received it the next day in the St
                                                Louis area. I paid $2450.00 delivered (truck was about $100.00), with
                                                the slider hand control (more expensive than foot), a series 17 torch,
                                                and a longer hose on the torch.

                                                The down-side is that there is no local service if something breaks.
                                                You can take your Miller and your wallet to your local seller but with
                                                the HTP you might need to replace a board or something by yourself.
                                                According to others, they walk you through it on the phone, ship parts
                                                quickly, and often you will be back up in less time than if you had
                                                local service. I think that the machine is relatively trouble free,
                                                though, and although I've not had it apart, it is designed to be
                                                repaired if needed, they say.

                                                I've heard that the machine is made by the same company in Italy which
                                                also makes the competing (but more expensive, even at street prices)
                                                Miller and Lincoln machines.

                                                What I know about AL welding, you could stick in your ear. I messed
                                                with it a little and found that it is completely different from steel
                                                but so far I have no need to do AL. The machine buzzes on AC but is
                                                quiet on DC (once the HF shuts off) -- the first thing I noticed. I
                                                also played with the pulse mode but can't remember if it works on DC
                                                also. If you call the company, I believe that they will give you a
                                                straight answer on that question about stainless. And, if the person
                                                who answers the phone doesn't know, someone who does know will get back
                                                to you. I could have saved money by buying a DC only machine but
                                                decided that was stupid -- as soon as you do that something comes up.

                                                Lift starting -- you touch the tungsten to the workpiece and hit the
                                                switch or foot pedal. It senses the dead short and won't actually start
                                                the current. As you raise the tungsten from the piece, it will start
                                                the arc. I've tried it and it works. Obviously, HF is better but I
                                                guess there are places where the EMI cannot be tolerated so this is a
                                                lot better than scratch starting. My first TIG machine was scratch
                                                start. Some days I could do nothing wrong and other days every time I
                                                'scratched' I got a stick and contaminated the tungsten.

                                                I really love the machine and my experience with the company has been
                                                very positive -- you can check out their reputation on Ebay. But
                                                remember, I'm not an experienced welder.

                                                One more thing -- my decision to use a hand control rather than foot.
                                                The 'thing' I'm welding needs to be welded from two different sides of
                                                the work table. I sit on a stool with wheels and it is easier for me to
                                                roll around the table than to reposition the work. If I were using a
                                                foot pedal that would be awkward.

                                                Bill

                                                Don McDonald wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Bill
                                                >
                                                > That looks like a great little welder. I dearly want a Tig. I was
                                                > impressed
                                                > by their description of the ability to retain a sharp point under AC by
                                                > using a low tungsten content electrode and the appropriate settings on the
                                                > machine. Not sure how this "lift mode" works. How can you strike the arc
                                                > without HF?
                                                >
                                                > Seems to have pulse mode built in for thin sheet Al. How do you think it
                                                > would work for thin stainless?
                                                >
                                                > Who has the best price on this unit?
                                                >
                                                > DonM
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of Bill Rubenstein
                                                > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:41 PM
                                                > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Subject: Re: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                                >
                                                > I'm going to take a chance and reply here -- first post to the group.
                                                > I'm no great shakes as a TIG welder (self taught) but have done a lot of
                                                > it on mild steel in the last few years. I bought a cheap power source,
                                                > no argon valve or anything, and it worked ok but was scratch start, no
                                                > amp control, and manual argon control which is a big pain. Also, it was
                                                > DC only so Alum. was out.
                                                >
                                                > I've now bought myself an HTP Invertig 201
                                                > (http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html
                                                > <http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html>) which is a
                                                > real machine. It has HF start, lift start if you can't use HF, DC, AC
                                                > with lots of options, and I can weld pretty close to 100 percent duty
                                                > cycle at 150 amps without a problem. I've run about 55 ft of bead in
                                                > the last 4 days I'm using a hand amp control with slider (works better
                                                > for me) but you can get a foot pedal control. I think this is a real
                                                > machine with which you can do real work and it costs a lot less than the
                                                > one you are looking at.
                                                >
                                                > It is 220 v only and is heavier than the one you are considering,
                                                > although at 68 lbs it is not a problem to move -- these inverter
                                                > machines are great. My first welder was an old 390 amp Hobart stick
                                                > welder, 3 phase input, which probably weighed 800 lbs.
                                                >
                                                > If any more experienced welders have this machine, I'd like to hear
                                                > their opinions of it -- I think it is just dandy.
                                                >
                                                > The reason I joined the group was to get some advice, not give it. But,
                                                > I'll save that for another day when I have a chance to go through the
                                                > archives.
                                                >
                                                > Bill
                                                >
                                                > Don Saito wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider
                                                > acquiring
                                                > > one of these.
                                                > >
                                                > > Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments
                                                > about
                                                > > their capabilities?
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks!
                                                > >
                                                > > Don Saito
                                                > > Oakland, CA
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                                > > On Behalf Of Don
                                                > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:12 PM
                                                > > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Subject: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                                > > 150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily
                                                > weld 1/4"
                                                > > material just be aware of the duty cycle.
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...>
                                                > > wrote:
                                                > > > Hi all,
                                                > > > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy
                                                > > small TIG
                                                > > > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                                > > > (Here's their web page on it:
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                                > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>
                                                > >
                                                > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                                > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>>)
                                                > > > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the
                                                > > infrastructure or
                                                > > > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if
                                                > > possible,
                                                > > > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless
                                                > > steel
                                                > > > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                                > > > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                                > > > Don Saito
                                                > > > Oakland, CA
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Don Saito
                                                Hi guys, Thanks for your responses to my question! This is great info - I would definitely like to get one, now, especially since I have an inkling of what
                                                Message 24 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi guys,

                                                  Thanks for your responses to my question! This is great info - I would
                                                  definitely like to get one, now, especially since I have an inkling of what
                                                  these small TIG welders are capable of (thanks, CJ). I'll start hunting
                                                  around and see what kind of prices I can get for one.

                                                  Your info is MOST appreciated! Once I get one, I'll let you know how it
                                                  goes.

                                                  Cheerios <crunch, crunch!>
                                                  Don Saito
                                                  Oakland, CA
                                                • Ken
                                                  Don, Stick welder start an arc all the time without HF. Many TIG welder can do it also. I do have a problem starting an ARC without HF. I usually use
                                                  Message 25 of 26 , Feb 3, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Don, Stick welder start an arc all the time without HF. Many TIG
                                                    welder can do it also. I do have a problem starting an ARC without HF.
                                                    I usually use scratch start instead of the lift ARC.

                                                    Ken

                                                    Don McDonald wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Bill
                                                    >
                                                    > That looks like a great little welder. I dearly want a Tig. I was
                                                    > impressed
                                                    > by their description of the ability to retain a sharp point under AC by
                                                    > using a low tungsten content electrode and the appropriate settings on the
                                                    > machine. Not sure how this "lift mode" works. How can you strike the arc
                                                    > without HF?
                                                    >
                                                    > Seems to have pulse mode built in for thin sheet Al. How do you think it
                                                    > would work for thin stainless?
                                                    >
                                                    > Who has the best price on this unit?
                                                    >
                                                    > DonM
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of Bill Rubenstein
                                                    > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:41 PM
                                                    > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Subject: Re: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm going to take a chance and reply here -- first post to the group.
                                                    > I'm no great shakes as a TIG welder (self taught) but have done a lot of
                                                    > it on mild steel in the last few years. I bought a cheap power source,
                                                    > no argon valve or anything, and it worked ok but was scratch start, no
                                                    > amp control, and manual argon control which is a big pain. Also, it was
                                                    > DC only so Alum. was out.
                                                    >
                                                    > I've now bought myself an HTP Invertig 201
                                                    > (http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html
                                                    > <http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html>) which is a
                                                    > real machine. It has HF start, lift start if you can't use HF, DC, AC
                                                    > with lots of options, and I can weld pretty close to 100 percent duty
                                                    > cycle at 150 amps without a problem. I've run about 55 ft of bead in
                                                    > the last 4 days I'm using a hand amp control with slider (works better
                                                    > for me) but you can get a foot pedal control. I think this is a real
                                                    > machine with which you can do real work and it costs a lot less than the
                                                    > one you are looking at.
                                                    >
                                                    > It is 220 v only and is heavier than the one you are considering,
                                                    > although at 68 lbs it is not a problem to move -- these inverter
                                                    > machines are great. My first welder was an old 390 amp Hobart stick
                                                    > welder, 3 phase input, which probably weighed 800 lbs.
                                                    >
                                                    > If any more experienced welders have this machine, I'd like to hear
                                                    > their opinions of it -- I think it is just dandy.
                                                    >
                                                    > The reason I joined the group was to get some advice, not give it. But,
                                                    > I'll save that for another day when I have a chance to go through the
                                                    > archives.
                                                    >
                                                    > Bill
                                                    >
                                                    > Don Saito wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks for the info hoistin2000. I will more seriously consider
                                                    > acquiring
                                                    > > one of these.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Does anyone out there actually have one of these units? Any comments
                                                    > about
                                                    > > their capabilities?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Don Saito
                                                    > > Oakland, CA
                                                    > >
                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > From: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > [mailto:welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>]
                                                    > > On Behalf Of Don
                                                    > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:12 PM
                                                    > > To: welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > Subject: [welding_group] Re: Small TIG Welders?
                                                    > > 150 amp output using 110 volts is a lot of power and will easily
                                                    > weld 1/4"
                                                    > > material just be aware of the duty cycle.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In welding_group@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > <mailto:welding_group%40yahoogroups.com>, "Don Saito" <donsaito@...>
                                                    > > wrote:
                                                    > > > Hi all,
                                                    > > > Can anyone describe the ability of one of those nice, semi-fancy
                                                    > > small TIG
                                                    > > > welders? Such as a Lincoln V205-T AC/DC TIG and stick welder for $4K?
                                                    > > > (Here's their web page on it:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                                    > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>
                                                    > >
                                                    > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760
                                                    > <http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?P=9760>>)
                                                    > > > What can be done with a unit like this? I don't have the
                                                    > > infrastructure or
                                                    > > > room to own/operate a full-sized TIG welder, but would be able, if
                                                    > > possible,
                                                    > > > to do frame work for light-weight trailers, or aluminium and stainless
                                                    > > steel
                                                    > > > up to 1/4". Or am I dreaming?
                                                    > > > Thanks for any info you can impart!
                                                    > > > Don Saito
                                                    > > > Oakland, CA
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • irinweld
                                                    iam siamak nabizadeh is welding eingeering if yuo want pleas call me my tel+989143807996
                                                    Message 26 of 26 , Feb 6, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      iam siamak nabizadeh is welding eingeering if yuo want pleas call me
                                                      my tel+989143807996
                                                    • Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.