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  • goreygirlkim
    Hi Guys! My name is Kim and Im new here. Just thought I would drop an email hello and say Happy Turkey Day! Speaking of Turkeys, I saw one in a tree on
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2002
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      Hi Guys!

      My name is Kim and Im new here. Just thought I would drop an email
      hello and say Happy Turkey Day!

      Speaking of Turkeys, I saw one in a tree on Thanksgiving in Oregon
      Wi. near Madison. I didnt know they could fly! LOL!

      I live in Milwaukee and have seen my share of weird Wisconsin!

      Looking forward to shareing weirdness with all of you!

      Regards,

      Kim
    • Richard D. Hendricks
      Glad to see you finally made it here, Kim. Welcome! Kim’s a longtime Fortean and chaser after weirdness – I’ve known her for a couple of years now.
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 2, 2002
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        Glad to see you finally made it here, Kim. Welcome!

        Kim’s a longtime Fortean and chaser after weirdness – I’ve known her
        for a couple of years now. She’s pretty knowledgeable about weird stuff
        across the state, particularly in Milwaukee. In fact, Kim’s one of the
        few people I know who heeds the warning to always carry a small
        disposable camera with you in case you encounter something anomalous.
        She’s always prepared! In fact, you probably don’t know this, Kim, but
        lately I’ve been quoting you to several people. “My friend Kim says ...
        blah blah blah.” Usually having to do with black magic and ghosts!

        Kim, your question regarding Holy Hill Satanists reminded me that I
        heard something like that once, too. I wasn’t sure how much stock to
        put into it, as I’ve heard this about a lot of places recently. The
        latest is in Jefferson county. We’re probably more apt, though, to see
        people running around in white robes here than we are black ....

        Anyway, I was watching AMERICAN MOVIE the other night, the
        documentary about Mark Borchardt and the making of his movie COVEN. I
        was reminded of a story from another friend, Scott. He was out taking
        pictures one day at an abandoned drive-in. He wandered through the
        gate, and saw a dozen or so robed and hooded figures standing in the
        middle of the car park. All had baseball bats or sticks. They began
        viciously beating something and he realized they were pounding on an
        automobile. He goes, what the –?! He thought he had wandered into the
        middle of some weird cult thing. Suddenly, two of the figures turn
        toward him, and point right at him. He’s scared spitless – he’s next! –
        and turns and starts running. He scrambles into his car and squeals out
        of the parking lot. For years he thought he had avoided some sinister
        ending.

        Then one day, several years later, he’s watching AMERICAN MOVIE and
        it gets to the section about the filming of COVEN and he sees the same
        hooded and robed figures viciously beating an automobile at the same
        abandoned drive-in. He realizes he was there – he saw Borchardt and
        company filming this scene, but hadn’t realized what he was seeing. I’m
        wondering if some of these Holy Hill Satanist stories are of the same
        thing? Borchardt filmed across the greater Milwaukee area, and often
        used public parks, woods, and public lands for some of his scenes. He
        was making COVEN for a long time, and only finished it in the late
        ‘90s. Also, there are all kinds of small movie makers scattered across
        the state making movies in their spare time. It’s just a thought. It’s
        easy to see something out of context, then from our misunderstanding and
        fear and media conditioning, we jump to wrong conclusions.

        Anybody?

        Oh, yeah: If you haven't seen AMERICAN MOVIE, I highly recommend
        it. It has Weird Wisconsin written all over it. On DVD, it also has
        COVEN included, which is a fun little short.

        RDH


        goreygirlkim wrote:

        > Hi Guys!
        >
        > My name is Kim and Im new here. Just thought I would drop an email
        > hello and say Happy Turkey Day!
        >
        > Speaking of Turkeys, I saw one in a tree on Thanksgiving in Oregon
        > Wi. near Madison. I didnt know they could fly! LOL!
        >
        > I live in Milwaukee and have seen my share of weird Wisconsin!
        >
        > Looking forward to shareing weirdness with all of you!
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Kim
      • Its Shelly
        I don t know anything about his satanic cult, but I ll vouch for American Movie AND Coven. Both are classics in one way or another. I think it s pretty funny
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 2, 2002
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          I don't know anything about his satanic cult, but I'll vouch for American Movie AND Coven. Both are classics in one way or another. I think it's pretty funny that your friend encountered the filming of that scene.
          "Richard D. Hendricks" <rdh@...> wrote: Glad to see you finally made it here, Kim. Welcome!

          Kim�s a longtime Fortean and chaser after weirdness � I�ve known her
          for a couple of years now. She�s pretty knowledgeable about weird stuff
          across the state, particularly in Milwaukee. In fact, Kim�s one of the
          few people I know who heeds the warning to always carry a small
          disposable camera with you in case you encounter something anomalous.
          She�s always prepared! In fact, you probably don�t know this, Kim, but
          lately I�ve been quoting you to several people. �My friend Kim says ...
          blah blah blah.� Usually having to do with black magic and ghosts!

          Kim, your question regarding Holy Hill Satanists reminded me that I
          heard something like that once, too. I wasn�t sure how much stock to
          put into it, as I�ve heard this about a lot of places recently. The
          latest is in Jefferson county. We�re probably more apt, though, to see
          people running around in white robes here than we are black ....

          Anyway, I was watching AMERICAN MOVIE the other night, the
          documentary about Mark Borchardt and the making of his movie COVEN. I
          was reminded of a story from another friend, Scott. He was out taking
          pictures one day at an abandoned drive-in. He wandered through the
          gate, and saw a dozen or so robed and hooded figures standing in the
          middle of the car park. All had baseball bats or sticks. They began
          viciously beating something and he realized they were pounding on an
          automobile. He goes, what the �?! He thought he had wandered into the
          middle of some weird cult thing. Suddenly, two of the figures turn
          toward him, and point right at him. He�s scared spitless � he�s next! �
          and turns and starts running. He scrambles into his car and squeals out
          of the parking lot. For years he thought he had avoided some sinister
          ending.

          Then one day, several years later, he�s watching AMERICAN MOVIE and
          it gets to the section about the filming of COVEN and he sees the same
          hooded and robed figures viciously beating an automobile at the same
          abandoned drive-in. He realizes he was there � he saw Borchardt and
          company filming this scene, but hadn�t realized what he was seeing. I�m
          wondering if some of these Holy Hill Satanist stories are of the same
          thing? Borchardt filmed across the greater Milwaukee area, and often
          used public parks, woods, and public lands for some of his scenes. He
          was making COVEN for a long time, and only finished it in the late
          �90s. Also, there are all kinds of small movie makers scattered across
          the state making movies in their spare time. It�s just a thought. It�s
          easy to see something out of context, then from our misunderstanding and
          fear and media conditioning, we jump to wrong conclusions.

          Anybody?

          Oh, yeah: If you haven't seen AMERICAN MOVIE, I highly recommend
          it. It has Weird Wisconsin written all over it. On DVD, it also has
          COVEN included, which is a fun little short.

          RDH


          goreygirlkim wrote:

          > Hi Guys!
          >
          > My name is Kim and Im new here. Just thought I would drop an email
          > hello and say Happy Turkey Day!
          >
          > Speaking of Turkeys, I saw one in a tree on Thanksgiving in Oregon
          > Wi. near Madison. I didnt know they could fly! LOL!
          >
          > I live in Milwaukee and have seen my share of weird Wisconsin!
          >
          > Looking forward to shareing weirdness with all of you!
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Kim



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        • That Goddess Chick
          ... Well, Sydde and I went to Maryhill Stonehenge in Washington state once when a small group were filming there. Place was filled with druids and fairies....a
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 2, 2002
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            >‘90s. Also, there are all kinds of small movie makers scattered across
            >the state making movies in their spare time. It’s just a thought. It’s
            >easy to see something out of context, then from our misunderstanding and
            >fear and media conditioning, we jump to wrong conclusions.
            >
            > Anybody?

            Well, Sydde and I went to Maryhill Stonehenge in Washington state
            once when a small group were filming there. Place was filled with
            druids and fairies....a perfect atmosphere for the ritual we planned
            to perform there that day. It was only because we finally approached
            one of the druid priests to ask what was going on, that we found out
            that it was only a film.
            --


            Fel

            NEW!! Frogstone's free bead Patterns:
            http://www.frogstone.net/Beads/free_bead_patterns1.html

            Cafe Forteana: http://www.frogstone.net/Cafe/CafeForteana.html
            Weird Page: http://my.athenet.net/~felinda/WeirdPage.html

            Now listening to: shadow Spawn - Silent Illusion
          • TaraMoon@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/2/2 8:00:40 PM, rdh@execpc.com writes:
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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              In a message dated 12/2/2 8:00:40 PM, rdh@... writes:

              << Then one day, several years later, he’s watching AMERICAN MOVIE and

              it gets to the section about the filming of COVEN and he sees the same

              hooded and robed figures viciously beating an automobile at the same

              abandoned drive-in. He realizes he was there – he saw Borchardt and

              company filming this scene, but hadn’t realized what he was seeing. >>

              It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have noticed
              the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables, microphones,
              equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members who would
              have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget film
              would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room trailers.
            • Richard D. Hendricks
              ... TaraMoon, this assumes that the filming is a big Hollywood type production. It wasn t. In all the scenes I saw, Borchardt shot everything using a
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                TaraMoon@... wrote:

                > It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have
                > noticed
                > the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables,
                > microphones,
                > equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members
                > who would
                > have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget
                > film
                > would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room
                > trailers.

                TaraMoon, this assumes that the filming is a big Hollywood type
                production. It wasn't. In all the scenes I saw, Borchardt shot
                everything using a hand-held camera -- no lighting, no other equipment,
                etc. Sometimes his mother ran the camera; often times it was friends
                who weren't doing anything better that day. This was really movie
                making on a shoe string. Even the audio was captured directly using the
                camera's microphone, with no other external booms. He'd sometimes go
                back and re-record audio, either in the studio or on-site if the sound
                quality was bad. As another point of comparison, when we shot with the
                Discovery Channel crew this summer, they used a handheld camera while
                another guy ran sound with a mic. The director had a small tv monitor
                connected by cable to the camera. That was it. It was all shot in
                natural light. When you're shooting for pennies, you can't afford
                extras or caterers. Borchardt was always hitting his relatives and
                friends up for an extra $20 here, $40 there, just to get money to buy
                film. Lots of films get made this way. Scott didn't see anyone
                shooting anything at the time; of course, I'm sure his attention was
                drawn to the spectacle unfolding before his eyes.

                RDH
              • That Goddess Chick
                ... I absolutely disagree. We never saw anything when we were at Maryhill Stonehenge. After we asked if there was something going on, we were told a movie was
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                  > It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have noticed
                  >the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables, microphones,
                  >equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members who would
                  >have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget film
                  >would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room trailers.

                  I absolutely disagree. We never saw anything when we were at
                  Maryhill Stonehenge. After we asked if there was something going on,
                  we were told a movie was being made. There was no visible indication
                  that that was what was going on.
                  --


                  Fel

                  NEW!! Frogstone's free bead Patterns:
                  http://www.frogstone.net/Beads/free_bead_patterns1.html

                  Cafe Forteana: http://www.frogstone.net/Cafe/CafeForteana.html
                  Weird Page: http://my.athenet.net/~felinda/WeirdPage.html

                  Now listening to:
                • AmyStrange.com
                  ... I agree with Fel, I worked with a friend of mine who did low budget filming for local access and all he really had was a small 8mm. I was really surprised
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                    On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, That Goddess Chick wrote:

                    > > It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have noticed
                    > >the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables, microphones,
                    > >equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members who would
                    > >have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget film
                    > >would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room trailers.
                    >
                    > I absolutely disagree. We never saw anything when we were at
                    > Maryhill Stonehenge. After we asked if there was something going on,
                    > we were told a movie was being made. There was no visible indication
                    > that that was what was going on.
                    > --
                    >
                    >
                    > Fel
                    >
                    > NEW!! Frogstone's free bead Patterns:
                    > http://www.frogstone.net/Beads/free_bead_patterns1.html
                    >
                    > Cafe Forteana: http://www.frogstone.net/Cafe/CafeForteana.html
                    > Weird Page: http://my.athenet.net/~felinda/WeirdPage.html
                    >
                    > Now listening to:
                    >
                    > Escape the Mundane!
                    > Read Weird Wisconsin!
                    > http://www.weird-wi.com/
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    I agree with Fel,

                    I worked with a friend of mine who did low budget filming for local access and
                    all he really had was a small 8mm. I was really surprised at how good the sound
                    and video quality is for television. Of course if you're talking big screen
                    movies, that might be different, but I've heard that is changing with the
                    quality of big screen digital recording equipment and can all be included in a
                    regular digital camera that is smaller than the standard TV camera you see
                    that the local news station has and more and more of them are just used to send
                    a signal to a van where all the real equipment is housed...

                    Dave <AmyStrange@...> Ayotte
                    http://www.AmyStrange.com/MyLifeStory.html
                    http://www.SeattleActivist.org
                    ALL my webpages (like my mind)
                    are ALWAYS under
                    construction
                  • TaraMoon@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/3/2 7:17:17 PM, rdh@execpc.com writes: ... TaraMoon, this assumes that the filming is a big Hollywood type production. It wasn t. In
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                      In a message dated 12/3/2 7:17:17 PM, rdh@... writes:

                      << TaraMoon@... wrote:

                      > It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have
                      > noticed
                      > the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables,
                      > microphones,
                      > equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members
                      > who would
                      > have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget
                      > film
                      > would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room
                      > trailers.

                      TaraMoon, this assumes that the filming is a big Hollywood type
                      production. It wasn't. In all the scenes I saw, Borchardt shot
                      everything using a hand-held camera -- no lighting, no other equipment,
                      etc. Sometimes his mother ran the camera; often times it was friends
                      who weren't doing anything better that day. This was really movie
                      making on a shoe string. Even the audio was captured directly using the
                      camera's microphone, with no other external booms. He'd sometimes go
                      back and re-record audio, either in the studio or on-site if the sound
                      quality was bad.
                      I haven't seen the film, but what you're describing is 16mm shot with a
                      hand-wound Bolex camera -- the kind documentarians used in remote locations
                      before the advent of video. The shooting ratio must have been enormous to
                      get any usable footage. The Bolex does not have sound recording capability.
                      A microphone on a film camera would capture the sound of the film moving
                      through the interior camera mechanism. Am I correct in assuming that this
                      film was theatrically released? If so, the picture quality must have been
                      atrocious. The necessary transfer from 16mm to 35mm would have badly
                      degraded an already very poor quality original image. A Super 8 camera would
                      have sound capability but would be unwatchable if blown up to 35mm.
                      Even the lowest budget independent films generally involve the use of
                      large quantities of professional lighting equipment and professional sound
                      equipment. At a bare minimum, in order to accommodate theatrical release all
                      of the sound would have had to have been redone using professional equipment.
                      Is it possible that the entire "film" was shot on video?
                      As another point of comparison, when we shot with the
                      Discovery Channel crew this summer, they used a handheld camera while
                      another guy ran sound with a mic. The director had a small tv monitor
                      connected by cable to the camera. That was it. It was all shot in
                      natural light.
                      That would have been high quality video, not film, which is a whole other
                      ballgame. They would have had little concern for image quality but would
                      have used professional sound recording equipment.
                      When you're shooting for pennies, you can't afford
                      extras or caterers. Borchardt was always hitting his relatives and
                      friends up for an extra $20 here, $40 there, just to get money to buy
                      film. Lots of films get made this way.
                      Even without extras and caterers, even the lowest budget independent film
                      (a rock-bottom low budget porn film, for example) requires an abundance of
                      equipment to produce a product that could survive a blow-up to 35mm, people
                      to lug the equipment around and vehicles to transport both. For example, the
                      effect created in "Blair Witch" would suggest that it was shot without
                      lighting and purely by happenstance. That's part of the mystique surrounding
                      the film but doesn't represent what really happened. Enough equipment was
                      used so that at any point when something was being filmed anyone happening
                      upon the scene would immediately recognize that they were in the presence of
                      a film crew.
                      << Scott didn't see anyone
                      shooting anything at the time; of course, I'm sure his attention was
                      drawn to the spectacle unfolding before his eyes.>>
                      I don't doubt that Scott told you the story. However, by applying
                      fortean skepticism and a filmmaking background to deconstruct the scenario, I
                      don't find his story credible. An abandoned drive-in is a wide open area.
                      As such, it doesn't present a scenario in which someone suddenly turns a
                      corner, happens upon a frightening scene and bolts without taking in enough
                      information to place the occurrence in context. Scott would have you
                      believe that he, a lone person, entered a wide open area and willingly
                      approached a group of robed people who appeared to be beating
                      something/someone to death. Or, in an alternate interpretation, he entered a
                      wide open area and was oblivious to the presence of a group of robed people
                      pounding on a car until he was very close to them.
                      Neither scenario is credible. The wide-open setting, alone, makes it
                      highly unlikely that someone approaching a group of robed people beating on a
                      car would be oblivious to even a single person with a Super-8 camera, let
                      alone a minimal crew. If this occurred at night, he might not have noticed
                      the camera operator, but, no matter how amateurish the production, a night
                      shoot would have necessitated lighting of some sort. And the likelihood
                      that a single person would approach a group of robed people beating something
                      to death at night ventures into the outer fringe of unlikely.
                      It seems far more likely that Scott saw the scene being filmed and
                      approached and later spiced up the account -- or that he just fabricated the
                      entire incident.
                      I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but a background as an investigative
                      reporter and filmmaker and some experience investigating fortean phenomena
                      sent up a red flag. That said, as we all know, anything is possible. I
                      enjoy the Weird Wisconsin website and the ongoing exchanges. :)

                      TaraMoon
                    • TaraMoon@aol.com
                      In a message dated 12/3/2 8:08:38 PM, felinda@frogstone.net writes: It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have noticed ... I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                        In a message dated 12/3/2 8:08:38 PM, felinda@... writes:

                        << > It would have been virtually impossible for someone not to have
                        noticed
                        >the plethora of equipment including lights, sandbags, cables, microphones,
                        >equipment trucks, dressing room trailers, and numerous crew members who would
                        >have been present during the shooting of the scene. Even a low budget film
                        >would have required everything except, perhaps, dressing room trailers.

                        I absolutely disagree. We never saw anything when we were at
                        Maryhill Stonehenge. After we asked if there was something going on,
                        we were told a movie was being made. There was no visible indication
                        that that was what was going on.
                        -- >>

                        Just a group of people in costume cavorting around? Where were the
                        filmmakers?

                        TaraMoon
                      • That Goddess Chick
                        ... Apparently well out of sight, which was nice because we had perfect atmosphere for ourselves. I suspect nothing will convince you of this possibility,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                          > Just a group of people in costume cavorting around? Where were the
                          >filmmakers?
                          >
                          >TaraMoon

                          Apparently well out of sight, which was nice because we had perfect
                          atmosphere for ourselves. I suspect nothing will convince you of
                          this possibility, however.
                          --


                          Fel

                          NEW!! Frogstone's free bead Patterns:
                          http://www.frogstone.net/Beads/free_bead_patterns1.html

                          Cafe Forteana: http://www.frogstone.net/Cafe/CafeForteana.html
                          Weird Page: http://my.athenet.net/~felinda/WeirdPage.html

                          Now listening to:
                        • TaraMoon@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/3/2 8:08:38 PM, felinda@frogstone.net writes:
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                            In a message dated 12/3/2 8:08:38 PM, felinda@... writes:

                            << I absolutely disagree. We never saw anything when we were at
                            Maryhill Stonehenge. After we asked if there was something going on,
                            we were told a movie was being made. There was no visible indication
                            that that was what was going on. >>

                            In what context did you first see the people in costume? Can you describe
                            where you were (the setting) and what you were doing and where they were (the
                            setting) and what they were doing between the time you initially observed
                            them and when you asked what was going on? Did you, for example, drive into
                            the Maryhill Stonehenge parking lot and see costumed people milling about and
                            ask them what they were doing? Did you observe them milling about in the
                            Maryhill Stonehenge itself in the company of non-costumed people with lots of
                            people and objects obscuring your view? Did you see them in mid-performance
                            in a wide open area with nothing to obscure your view as the film was being
                            shot?

                            TaraMoon
                          • TaraMoon@aol.com
                            I did a little research on Coven and discovered that it is a 30 (or 40, depending on the account) minute, 16mm black and white short. According to the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                              I did a little research on "Coven" and discovered that it is a 30 (or 40,
                              depending on the account) minute, 16mm black and white short. According to
                              the account that I read, the 6'4" director used one other crew member. This
                              would indicate that the production standards were strictly amateur. Reviews
                              of the film likening it to the work of Ed Wood coroborate this.
                              Because the original account mentioned the film being shown on
                              television, I had assumed that it was a theatrical release production
                              requiring production values (ie. equipment and crew) beyond amateur level.
                              It seems likely that the film seen on television was not "Coven" but the film
                              about the making of "Coven". True?
                              In any event, someone who walked up to a group of robed figures being
                              filmed beating on a car in a wide open area such as an abandoned drive-in lot
                              the size of a football field or larger could hardly have failed to notice a
                              6'4" person with a camera close enough to the action to film it (I think it's
                              safe to assume he wasn't using a $20,000 telephoto lens) and another person
                              with sound equipment close enough to record the sound. But, again, anything
                              is possible.

                              TaraMoon
                            • TaraMoon@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/3/2 2:01:23 AM, felinda@frogstone.net writes:
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                In a message dated 12/3/2 2:01:23 AM, felinda@... writes:

                                << Well, Sydde and I went to Maryhill Stonehenge in Washington state

                                once when a small group were filming there. Place was filled with

                                druids and fairies....a perfect atmosphere for the ritual we planned

                                to perform there that day. It was only because we finally approached

                                one of the druid priests to ask what was going on, that we found out

                                that it was only a film. >>

                                In what context did you first see the people in costume? Can you describe
                                where you were (the setting) and what you were doing and where they were (the
                                setting) and what they were doing between the time you initially observed
                                them and when you asked what was going on? Did you, for example, drive into
                                the Maryhill Stonehenge parking lot and see costumed people milling about and
                                ask them what they were doing? Did you observe them milling about in the
                                Maryhill Stonehenge itself in the company of non-costumed people with lots of
                                people and objects obscuring your view? Did you see them in mid-performance
                                in a wide open area with nothing to obscure your view as the film was being
                                shot?
                                It makes a world of difference. Something that is credible in one
                                context is not credible in another context. For example, someone may claim
                                that he looked out his livingroom window and saw an illuminated, anomalous
                                craft hovering over the big oak tree in the yard, silhouetted against a full
                                moon. This could be a credible account. However, if you research the phase
                                of the moon on the date of the sighting and discover that it was a new moon,
                                the account becomes less credible. If you go to the site and discover that
                                the big oak tree in the yard can't be seen from the window in question,
                                credibility is significantly diminished.
                                Because anomalous events are often outside the realm of "normal", it
                                becomes essential to evaluate the mundane aspects of an account to determine
                                witness credibility. Of course, the second-hand account of the robed figures
                                in the drive-in lot had nothing to do with anomalous events, but the same
                                principles of story credibility apply. Under certain rare circumstances it
                                would be possible for someone to happen upon something being filmed and not
                                be aware that it was being filmed. The available information suggested that
                                this was not one of those circumstances.
                                People do make up stories. They do leave out information and distort
                                information and fabricate information for a variety of reasons. If we accept
                                all accounts as factual without applying any sort of testing for credibility,
                                as forteans we're going to be in deep trouble. But the robed figure
                                encounter, whether true or not, was just a harmless story and that's how it
                                was related.

                                TaraMoon
                              • TaraMoon@aol.com
                                In a message dated 12/3/2 8:27:57 PM, davepa@speakeasy.org writes:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 12/3/2 8:27:57 PM, davepa@... writes:

                                  << I agree with Fel,

                                  I worked with a friend of mine who did low budget filming for local access
                                  and
                                  all he really had was a small 8mm. I was really surprised at how good the
                                  sound
                                  and video quality is for television. Of course if you're talking big screen
                                  movies, that might be different, but I've heard that is changing with the
                                  quality of big screen digital recording equipment and can all be included in
                                  a
                                  regular digital camera that is smaller than the standard TV camera you see
                                  that the local news station has and more and more of them are just used to
                                  send
                                  a signal to a van where all the real equipment is housed... >>

                                  Coven wasn't made with 8mm. It was made with 16mm. And you're right, making
                                  something for theatrical release is in a whole different ballpark. 35mm
                                  digital (and 35mm film, for that matter) is astronomically expensive. Anyone
                                  in a position to be using it would be operating with a very high budget with
                                  all the accompanying equipment and crew hoopla.
                                • Its Shelly
                                  The theatrical movie, American Movie was a documentary about this guy trying to make his film. And actually, I don t think that he was the one holding the
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                    The theatrical movie, "American Movie" was a documentary about this guy trying to make his film.
                                    And actually, I don't think that he was the one holding the camera at that point because he was the "lead actor" in the movie and at one point was in the car as it was being demolished.
                                    I would have to go back to my DVD and take a look to see what actually happened during that scene.
                                    On a personal note, Borchardt was actually in a movie by a Milwaukee filmmaker I believe, and there was a scene where there was a man dressed like Brittney Spears being chased after by a bunch of people in this mall. I never saw the movie, and don't remember the title, but I was actually running to this mall in downtown Milwaukee during my lunch hour to run an errand and the first thing I saw was this really ugly guy dressed up like Brittney Spears, then a bunch of people mobbing him. I was like, "What the hell??" And it wasn't until I actually stopped and took a good look that I saw a camera.
                                    TaraMoon@... wrote: I did a little research on "Coven" and discovered that it is a 30 (or 40,
                                    depending on the account) minute, 16mm black and white short. According to
                                    the account that I read, the 6'4" director used one other crew member. This
                                    would indicate that the production standards were strictly amateur. Reviews
                                    of the film likening it to the work of Ed Wood coroborate this.
                                    Because the original account mentioned the film being shown on
                                    television, I had assumed that it was a theatrical release production
                                    requiring production values (ie. equipment and crew) beyond amateur level.
                                    It seems likely that the film seen on television was not "Coven" but the film
                                    about the making of "Coven". True?
                                    In any event, someone who walked up to a group of robed figures being
                                    filmed beating on a car in a wide open area such as an abandoned drive-in lot
                                    the size of a football field or larger could hardly have failed to notice a
                                    6'4" person with a camera close enough to the action to film it (I think it's
                                    safe to assume he wasn't using a $20,000 telephoto lens) and another person
                                    with sound equipment close enough to record the sound. But, again, anything
                                    is possible.

                                    TaraMoon


                                    Escape the Mundane!
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                                  • AmyStrange.com
                                    ... From: TaraMoon@aol.com To: TaraMoon@aol.com ; felinda@frogstone.net ; weirdwi@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: TaraMoon@... <TaraMoon@...>
                                      To: TaraMoon@... <TaraMoon@...>; felinda@...
                                      <felinda@...>; weirdwi@yahoogroups.com
                                      <weirdwi@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:21 PM
                                      Subject: Re: New Here


                                      > I did a little research on "Coven" and discovered that it is a 30
                                      (or 40,
                                      >depending on the account) minute, 16mm black and white short.
                                      According to
                                      >the account that I read, the 6'4" director used one other crew member.
                                      This
                                      >would indicate that the production standards were strictly amateur.
                                      Reviews
                                      >of the film likening it to the work of Ed Wood coroborate this.
                                      > Because the original account mentioned the film being shown on
                                      >television, I had assumed that it was a theatrical release production
                                      >requiring production values (ie. equipment and crew) beyond amateur
                                      level.
                                      >It seems likely that the film seen on television was not "Coven" but
                                      the film
                                      >about the making of "Coven". True?
                                      > In any event, someone who walked up to a group of robed figures
                                      being
                                      >filmed beating on a car in a wide open area such as an abandoned
                                      drive-in lot
                                      >the size of a football field or larger could hardly have failed to
                                      notice a
                                      >6'4" person with a camera close enough to the action to film it (I
                                      think it's
                                      >safe to assume he wasn't using a $20,000 telephoto lens) and another
                                      person
                                      >with sound equipment close enough to record the sound. But, again,
                                      anything
                                      >is possible.
                                      >
                                      >TaraMoon
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      I guess it depends on what you mean by "high production values"? Ed
                                      Wood's movies ("Plan 9 from Outer Space" for example) didn't have
                                      "high production values" but it was still shown in movie theaters and
                                      is probably better known than a lot of other movies with much higher
                                      production values. As far as filming movies, some film companies
                                      (amateur and professional ---especially amateur) go through what is
                                      know as "dress rehearsal" which is where the actors go through the
                                      script without a camera. Many amateurs do this a few times and will
                                      sometimes shoot with a real cheap and real small digital (or analog)
                                      camera to see how it will look then go and rent the expensive camera
                                      equipment to shoot finished products. I personally don't think dress
                                      rehearsals without a camera are a good idea because sometimes the dress
                                      rehearsals are where you can get the best footage or atleast the
                                      funniest, but that many amateurs I know do it that way. Go figure.

                                      As far as the people in the car with a bunch of people pounding on the
                                      outside of the car, they might have been filming from inside the car
                                      and the sound equipment might have been inside the car also for a kind
                                      of weird creative filming effect. You never know. They kind of did that
                                      kind of filming when George Romero filmed parts of the "Night of the
                                      Living Dead". The specific scene I am refering to is where they are
                                      driving the truck to the gas pump to fill it up with gas.

                                      Creative and/ or amateur filming means you don't always see them
                                      filming all the time. Just throwing my three cents (two cents adjusted
                                      for inflation) into the toilet to see if they go plunk or kerplunk...

                                      Dave <AmyStrange@...> Ayotte
                                      http://www.AmyStrange.com/MyLifeStory.html
                                      http://www.SeattleActivist.org
                                      My webpages (like my mind)
                                      are ALWAYS under
                                      construction
                                    • TaraMoon@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 12/4/2 4:51:30 AM, boingmeow@yahoo.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In a message dated 12/4/2 4:51:30 AM, boingmeow@... writes:

                                        << On a personal note, Borchardt was actually in a movie by a Milwaukee
                                        filmmaker I believe, and there was a scene where there was a man dressed like
                                        Brittney Spears being chased after by a bunch of people in this mall. I
                                        never saw the movie, and don't remember the title, but I was actually running
                                        to this mall in downtown Milwaukee during my lunch hour to run an errand and
                                        the first thing I saw was this really ugly guy dressed up like Brittney
                                        Spears, then a bunch of people mobbing him. I was like, "What the hell??"
                                        And it wasn't until I actually stopped and took a good look that I saw a
                                        camera. >>

                                        I believe you. The context fits the claim. You were running, saw action and
                                        movement and stopped, took a good look and saw a camera. And it's likely
                                        that this occurred where many things were happening: other "civilians"
                                        moving about, cars driving by, objects and people and vehicles partially
                                        obscuring your view. In the robed figure story, a lone man voluntarily
                                        approaches a menacing group committing a collective act of violence in a wide
                                        open area, gets close enough to see that they're beating a car but never sees
                                        the people filming the scene.
                                      • TaraMoon@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 12/4/2 4:53:02 AM, davepa@speakeasy.org writes:
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 3, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In a message dated 12/4/2 4:53:02 AM, davepa@... writes:

                                          << I guess it depends on what you mean by "high production values"? Ed
                                          Wood's movies ("Plan 9 from Outer Space" for example) didn't have
                                          "high production values" but it was still shown in movie theaters and
                                          is probably better known than a lot of other movies with much higher
                                          production values. >>
                                          I believe "Plan 9" was shot in 35mm with a full crew, lights, etc. The
                                          poor production values in that case consisted of amateur sets, abysmal script
                                          and poor acting. Were camera talent equal in both films, a 16mm film shot
                                          without lighting and blown up to 35mm would make "Plan 9" look, in
                                          comparison, like the cinematography had been done by Vittorio Storaro.

                                          As far as filming movies, some film companies
                                          (amateur and professional ---especially amateur) go through what is
                                          know as "dress rehearsal" which is where the actors go through the
                                          script without a camera. Many amateurs do this a few times and will
                                          sometimes shoot with a real cheap and real small digital (or analog)
                                          camera to see how it will look then go and rent the expensive camera
                                          equipment to shoot finished products.>>

                                          True. But dress rehearsals require the presence of the director and, usually
                                          the other key crew members (in the case of "Coven", two people). Most often
                                          in low budget films, the dress rehearsal is immediately followed by the
                                          actual shooting simply because of the hassle and expense of assembling the
                                          people and equipment a second time. Also, it's unlikely that a scene in
                                          which a car is destroyed would be dress-rehearsed with the actual destruction
                                          of the car. The story indicated that the robed group was destroying the car
                                          as he approached.


                                          As far as the people in the car with a bunch of people pounding on the
                                          outside of the car, they might have been filming from inside the car
                                          and the sound equipment might have been inside the car also for a kind
                                          of weird creative filming effect. You never know. They kind of did that
                                          kind of filming when George Romero filmed parts of the "Night of the
                                          Living Dead". The specific scene I am refering to is where they are
                                          driving the truck to the gas pump to fill it up with gas.>>

                                          True. Good point! Someone who has actually seen the film could tell us
                                          whether this was the case. But, if so, the sound recordist would almost
                                          certainly not be inside the car. But it is easier to overlook one person
                                          than to overlook two.

                                          Creative and/ or amateur filming means you don't always see them
                                          filming all the time. Just throwing my three cents (two cents adjusted
                                          for inflation) into the toilet to see if they go plunk or kerplunk... >>

                                          This is also true. Most filmmaking time is spent waiting. However, the
                                          story as recounted indicated that the action as seen in the finished film was
                                          taking place.
                                        • TaraMoon@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 12/4/2 7:21:04 PM, felinda@frogstone.net writes:
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 5, 2002
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                                            In a message dated 12/4/2 7:21:04 PM, felinda@... writes:

                                            << In addition to the other 8 e-mails I have received from this
                                            individual privately, not counting the ones I have received through
                                            this mailing list, I also received this one. I am a member in good
                                            standing on this list, and as I said, I can recognize a troll when I
                                            see when.


                                            >One hopes that you apply less sarcasm and better investigative skills when
                                            >determining whether or not an account of an anomalous event is credible.
                                            >
                                            >TaraMoon >>

                                            Whoa! Wait a minute. The only email I sent just to you was the "one hopes..."
                                            email you just posted. And I sent that in response to this email that you
                                            sent to me.

                                            In a message dated 12/4/2 2:06:03 AM, felinda@... writes:

                                            << In what context did you first see the people in costume? Etc.....

                                            Well, I do know a troll when I see one if that helps any.

                                            Over and out.
                                            --


                                            Fel >>
                                            If you send a private email and get one in response and if you use
                                            sarcasm and get sarcasm in response, it's unseemly to run crying to the group
                                            about it. All of the other emails that you received from me were "reply
                                            all" responses to the group. Surely you've noticed that if you send an email
                                            to the group, a "reply all" will list your name and the group name under
                                            "send to". I don't know why it's designed that way, but it is.
                                            I'm accustomed to forteans questioning everything as a matter of course.
                                            I'm unaccustomed to forteans taking offense, as Felinda seems to have, that I
                                            dared raise questions about a second-hand account of an alleged event related
                                            not even by her but by someone else. Others disagreed with my interpretation
                                            without seeming to take personal offense.
                                            Perhaps this is an appropriate time to ask whether this is a serious
                                            fortean egroup. If I have stumbled into a "How dare you even suggest Art
                                            Bell would make something up" type group, let me know now and I'll leave. If
                                            this is a group interested in serious investigations of strange phenomena and
                                            serious discussion, probing inquiry and even Lo! disagreement, count me in.

                                            TaraMoon
                                          • Gliaply
                                            ... I also recommend it. I am glad that The Independent Film Channel has kept it in relative broadcast rotation for the past year or so. When nothing else on
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 5, 2002
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                                              --- "Richard D. Hendricks" <rdh@...> wrote:
                                              > Oh, yeah: If you haven't seen AMERICAN MOVIE, I highly
                                              > recommend it. It has Weird Wisconsin written all over it.
                                              >On DVD, it also has COVEN included, which is a fun little short.


                                              I also recommend it. I am glad that The Independent Film Channel has
                                              kept it in relative broadcast rotation for the past year or so. When
                                              nothing else on TV is worth watching, and American Movie is being
                                              repeated, I enjoy watching all or part of it all over again. I was so
                                              inspired after my initial viewing that I even thought about phoning
                                              Mike Schank just to rap about music with him. Unfortunately, I never
                                              followed through on the thought.

                                              Before I ever saw AM, I saw Mark & Mike on the David Letterman Show.
                                              Dave just loved those guys because they are the kind of dopey common
                                              folk that he appreciates for their type of charisma (I mean that
                                              positively, not derogatorily). Knowing they were from the Milwaukee
                                              area made me all the more eager to see AM, and, about a year ago IFC
                                              first broadcast it. I also enjoyed Roger Ebert's praise for it on
                                              several of the Ebert & Roeper review programs.

                                              With all of this discussion about film production processes, I would
                                              like to suggest that you can sign up for the Wisconsin Film
                                              Commission's mailing list to be kept apprised of ongoing casting and
                                              production calls. I have no connection with the film industry, even
                                              on an amateur level, but, it is interesting to keep abreast of the
                                              activity in this local industry.

                                              Check it out at:

                                              Wisconsin Crews & News
                                              http://www.filmwisconsin.org/newsandcrewcalls/index.htm

                                              By the way, Richard, thanks for mentioning that Coven is included on
                                              the American Movie DVD. I have been hoping to purchase both of them
                                              and was planning on buying VHS versions, thinking I'd have to
                                              purchase two items, but now I will buy just the DVD and get them
                                              both. [I haven't fully stepped up to DVD viewing, hence the
                                              stuck-in-VHS mode way of thinking.]

                                              Bill


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