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Re: [webloggerusergroup] Weblogs == Personal Web Publishing Communities?

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  • Dave Winer
    Couple o comments.. Re community -- talking with a friend the other day -- I forget who of course -- we agreed that blog-writing is relational. It s relating
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 16, 2001
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      Couple o'comments..
       
      Re community -- talking with a friend the other day -- I forget who of course -- we agreed that blog-writing is relational. It's relating one idea to others. Ties communities together.
       
      I don't like "patriarch" or "leader" -- how about uncle? I think that's my lot in life. I have an avuncular personality. Now this has gotten me in trouble with people like "Bill Kearney" (smile Bill) who may have unresolved "uncle issues."
       
      Anyway this FAQ seems to be resonating. It's being translated to French as we speak. Happy.
       
      Dave
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dan Lyke
      Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:53 PM
      Subject: [webloggerusergroup] Weblogs == Personal Web Publishing Communities?

      D'oh! Sorry about that previous blank message.

      Dave Winer writes:
      > http://newhome.weblogs.com/personalWebPublishingCommunities

      which says:

      >  4. And finally, a weblog is part of _communities_. No weblog stands
      >     alone, they are relative to each other and to the world.

      I think this is something critical which I'm trying to rediscover on
      my 'blog. Many of my favorite sites have been slow recently, or have
      been concentrating more on links and less on commentary and original
      content. I know I'm fairly guilty on this point too, as my longer
      essay system is currently broken.

      One of the things I like about your 'blog, Dave, is that you do a lot
      of cross-linking between ideas. I often think the topics of discussion
      are kinda uninteresting[1], but I like that you're kinda the... dang,
      I've tried "patriarch" and "leader", neither of which is right... of a
      part of the weblogging community, and that reading Scripting News
      starts to feel like being accepted at a party where most of the folks
      have longstanding relationships.

      Something a few people have mentioned recently is that "weblogging" is
      no longer the unifying force it once was because "weblogging" no
      longer implies the same skill set that it did in 1998. So my
      frustrations are probably just that it's harder to find the similar
      folks now than then.

      No good ideas, just ramblings while waiting for code to run.

      Dan

      [1] memes exist. Yes, it sucks that humans are so susceptible to them,
      and yes, the Cluetrain folks are full of hoohey. Whatever.


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    • Bill Humphries
      ... I like this. ... There are a few weblogs that don t use templating or automation. the Luddites! I think Zeldman s still editing in BBEdit.
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 16, 2001
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        On Friday, November 16, 2001, at 12:29 PM, Dave Winer wrote:

        > Here's my latest contribution to the "What are Weblogs?" debate..

        I like this.

        However some folks might disagree with part of point #3:

        >> A weblog is published -- words flow through templates, the process is
        >> automated, the writer and designer are elevated.

        There are a few weblogs that don't use templating or automation.
        <strike>the Luddites!</strike> I think Zeldman's still editing in BBEdit.

        Related to the subject: last year I was at a tea hosted by a friend who
        writes an on-line journal. I was introduced as a 'blogger to another
        journal writer who said she hated those weblogs that were just lists of
        links. I laughed and told her that my weblog was a list of links. ;>

        ----
        Bill Humphries <bill@...>
        http://www.whump.com/moreLikeThis/
      • Mike Gunderloy
        Yup. The definition of weblogs by tool rather than by content has made the weblogging universe what it is today -- a dismal slough of personal pages that are
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 16, 2001
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          Yup. The definition of weblogs by tool rather than by content has made
          the weblogging universe what it is today -- a dismal slough of personal
          pages that are complete wastes of the electrons it takes to move them
          around.

          Mike Gunderloy
          http://www.larkfarm.com

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Bill Humphries [mailto:bill@...]

          > >> A weblog is published -- words flow through templates, the
          > process is
          > >> automated, the writer and designer are elevated.
          >
          > There are a few weblogs that don't use templating or automation.
          > <strike>the Luddites!</strike> I think Zeldman's still
          > editing in BBEdit.
        • Doug Kaye
          Glad to see that after a 2-year hiatus, David Weinberger is blogging again (http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/). Is there a standard way to get an RSS feed from
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 16, 2001
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            Glad to see that after a 2-year hiatus, David Weinberger is blogging again
            (http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/).

            Is there a standard way to get an RSS feed from a Blogger-generated site?
            Public scrapers?

            ...doug

            Doug Kaye
            doug@...
            www.rds.com
          • Julian Bond
            In article , Doug Kaye writes ... Unfortunately not. You have two options. 1) Try and persuade the Blog
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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              In article <00c701c16ef7$e898f3c0$c8a8a8c0@...>, Doug Kaye
              <doug@...> writes
              >Glad to see that after a 2-year hiatus, David Weinberger is blogging again
              >(http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/).
              >
              >Is there a standard way to get an RSS feed from a Blogger-generated site?
              >Public scrapers?

              Unfortunately not. You have two options.

              1) Try and persuade the Blog owner to make use of the RSSify tools.
              http://logicerror.com/blogifyYourPage
              http://www.voidstar.com/rssify.php
              http://www.kalsey.com/web/xml/rssblog.html
              The owner has to insert a couple of tags into their Blogger template and
              the tool does all the rest. It's the work of minutes. In the absence of
              native Blogger RSS, it would be great if more Blogger users did this. It
              would be even better if BlogSpot hosted one of them.

              2) Ask someone like http://www.newsisfree.com to scrape the page and
              turn it into RSS.

              Incidentally, of the four Cluetrain authors, only one (Doc) produces
              native RSS and that's awkward and slightly perverse because his is one
              day per item. If you read it every couple of hours you can track the
              edits. By the end of the day, you're getting 5-600 words each time.
              Rageboy is scraped by NewsIsFree. Boing Boing has the RSSify tags and is
              also scraped by NIF. Weinberger's has only just appeared so we haven't
              got to that one yet.

              Maybe it's time for them all to jump on the RSStrain. ;-)

              --
              Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
              CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
              WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
              M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
              ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
            • Julian Bond
              In article , Dave Winer writes ... I always wanted to be the Wicked Uncle . The one who appeared
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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                In article <0ad301c16eef$6ff8a5d0$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
                <dave@...> writes
                >how about uncle? I think that's my lot
                >in life.

                I always wanted to be the "Wicked Uncle". The one who appeared out of
                the blue after several years in the heart of Africa and encouraged the
                nephews to break the rules and upset their straight parents. But then
                I'm also quite looking forward to being the old curmudgeon who sits by
                the fire in the pub, nursing a half of Guinness and growling at anyone
                who comes near while occasionally boring a captive audience to tears
                with stories about "What I did in the Sudan"...

                Any suggestion that you could substitute "Early PC Software industry"
                for "Sudan" and have all that refer to Dave, would be scurrilous
                character defamation and should definitely be avoided. That was about
                me, not him.

                Heh!

                --
                Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
                CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
              • Jay Allen
                ... Let s see... on the web = Online Personal = Personal Published = Pubishing Communities = Group Yeah, I love it, Dave...
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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                  --- In webloggerusergroup@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                  > Here's my latest contribution to the "What are Weblogs?" debate..
                  >
                  > http://newhome.weblogs.com/personalWebPublishingCommunities
                  >
                  > Hope you enjoy it!

                  Let's see...

                  "on the web" = Online
                  Personal = Personal
                  Published = Pubishing
                  Communities = Group

                  Yeah, I love it, Dave... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webloggerusergroup/message/472

                  -j-
                  http://www.openwire.com
                • Dave Winer
                  I had a domain for a while that we just let go: unclesclub.com. I wonder how many people in the Weblog World think of themselves as Uncles, wicked or
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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                    I had a domain for a while that we just let go: unclesclub.com.
                     
                    I wonder how many people in the Weblog World think of themselves as Uncles, wicked or otherwise.
                     
                    Dave
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 12:29 AM
                    Subject: Re: [webloggerusergroup] Weblogs == Personal Web Publishing Communities?

                    In article <0ad301c16eef$6ff8a5d0$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
                    <dave@...> writes
                    >how about uncle? I think that's my lot
                    >in life.

                    I always wanted to be the "Wicked Uncle". The one who appeared out of
                    the blue after several years in the heart of Africa and encouraged the
                    nephews to break the rules and upset their straight parents. But then
                    I'm also quite looking forward to being the old curmudgeon who sits by
                    the fire in the pub, nursing a half of Guinness and growling at anyone
                    who comes near while occasionally boring a captive audience to tears
                    with stories about "What I did in the Sudan"...

                    Any suggestion that you could substitute "Early PC Software industry"
                    for "Sudan" and have all that refer to Dave, would be scurrilous
                    character defamation and should definitely be avoided. That was about
                    me, not him.

                    Heh!

                    --
                    Julian Bond    email: julian_bond@...
                    CV/Resume:         http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                    WebLog:               http://www.voidstar.com/
                    M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173  T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                    ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time


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                  • Mahesh Shantaram
                    ... From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@userland.com] Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 12:16 AM To: webloggerusergroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 12:16 AM
                      To: webloggerusergroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [webloggerusergroup] Weblogs == Personal Web Publishing
                      Communities?

                      > I had a domain for a while that we just
                      > let go: unclesclub.com.
                      > I wonder how many people in the Weblog
                      > World think of themselves as Uncles,
                      > wicked or otherwise.

                      Now I'm confused. Does "uncle" mean anything other than "parent's brother"?

                      Cross-cultural Did You Know of the day:
                      In India, children often address elderly people (who are not related to
                      them) as Uncle. This stems from the pledge (
                      http://www.tamilnadueducation.com/pledge.htm ) that we used to recite in
                      school every Friday: "All Indians are my brothers and sisters". By this
                      philosophy, even strangers are looked upon as being a brother or sister to
                      one's father or mother.

                      Remember this on your next visit to India when the little ones call you
                      "Uncle!" :-)

                      And I'm sure www.unclesclub.co.in is not taken yet.


                      ---
                      Mahesh Shantaram
                      http://www.techrose.org/
                    • Dan Lyke
                      ... Strictly, no. Culturally, male friends close to the family will sometimes be referred to as uncle , cause they do lots of the same things uncles do: Be
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 17, 2001
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                        Mahesh Shantaram writes:
                        > Now I'm confused. Does "uncle" mean anything other than "parent's brother"?

                        Strictly, no. Culturally, male friends close to the family will
                        sometimes be referred to as "uncle", 'cause they do lots of the same
                        things uncles do: Be someone who cares about the family, and
                        participates, but because he's not a parent, doesn't have the same
                        economic constraints or need to maintain authority, can have a
                        completely different relationship to the kids.

                        For instance: I've got a friend who's got two adolescent boys. She's a
                        70s feminist who's coming up against the harsh reality of male
                        puberty, but also a single mom who's run fairly ragged.

                        So I'm willing to be much more patient when I help with homework
                        ('cause I only see them once a week or so). And I don't have kids (and
                        don't plan on having kids), so I don't have to pretend that I find
                        kids cute or lovable, which means that we have a relationship dynamic
                        that ends up being more between equals. I can give them gifts that are
                        expensive, or perhaps things they really wanted rather than things
                        they should have.

                        When she's doing her 70s feminist "pornography is evil" thing I can't
                        exactly give 'em porn, but I can say "here, read some Nadine Strossen
                        or some Carol Queen, see what other people think about how that
                        influences culture", or "Hey, have you seen cleansheets.com?" to point
                        out that there are more variations to sex than just the image that
                        their mother hates so strongly.

                        And whene their mom is talking about the importance of studying hard
                        and applying themselves to education, and promulgating all those lies
                        about their own academic career that parents have to lay on, I'm
                        saying "yeah, I graduated in the top 60% of my high school class and
                        dropped out of college" and "my years as a professional whitewater
                        guide were a lot of fun".

                        And where parents can't have conversations with their kids about sex,
                        or push the "you're too young" line (which may be true, but won't stop
                        them), I can say "it's none of my business, but I had a few terrifying
                        experiences before I figured out that water based lube is a necessity
                        with condoms". Let's face it: Nobody wants to hear that from their
                        mom. Probably not even their dad.

                        Everyone I know refers to this as "playing uncle".

                        > Cross-cultural Did You Know of the day:
                        > In India, children often address elderly people (who are not related
                        > to them) as Uncle.

                        Probably a similar thing.

                        Dan
                      • jm
                        Hi, I was wondering what was your policy about linking to articles that are not free (e.g. on WSJ, The Economist or Salon Premium) or that requires a cookie
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 19, 2001
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                          Hi,

                          I was wondering what was your 'policy' about linking to articles that are
                          not free (e.g. on WSJ, The Economist or Salon Premium) or that requires a
                          cookie / free registration (NYTimes) ?

                          Also, do you think that the "End of Free" will have an influence on the
                          collection of web links and therefore on the content of your online
                          publishing?


                          Cheers,
                          --
                          jm
                          Weblogue: (from english Web: network and latin logos:talk) opinion wishing
                          to be heard and amplified.
                        • Mahesh Shantaram
                          ... From: jm [mailto:giem@free.fr] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:54 PM To: webloggerusergroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [webloggerusergroup] Public
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 19, 2001
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: jm [mailto:giem@...]
                            Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:54 PM
                            To: webloggerusergroup@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [webloggerusergroup] Public Accessible link policy

                            Hi jm,

                            > I was wondering what was your 'policy' about linking
                            > to articles that are not free (e.g. on WSJ, The
                            > Economist or Salon Premium) or that requires a cookie
                            > / free registration (NYTimes) ?

                            From a weblogging/journalists point of view, I like what Rebecca Blood does.
                            She mentions the the username (rebeccas_pocket) and password (I think it's
                            "blood") of a dummy account beside an NYT link. That was very helpful,
                            because earlier on, I wouldn't click on NYT links. The thought of a sign-up
                            process would deter me.

                            > Also, do you think that the "End of Free" will have an
                            > influence on the collection of web links and therefore
                            > on the content of your online publishing?

                            It's a coincidence that you should ask this today. India's most respected
                            news media group (in the class of Time Magazine) decided to open their
                            online publication to subscribers only. That's bad news for me as I've
                            linked heavily to TheNewspaperToday.com from my journal.

                            I believe that as the Web goes form free to paid, user experience will take
                            a kick due to widespread linkrot. I've written on this topic before:
                            http://msram.livejournal.com/day/2001/04/04


                            ---
                            Mahesh Shantaram
                            http://www.techrose.org/
                          • Madhu Menon
                            ... All well and good, till the day NYTimes.com decides that it will restict a user name to only one session or IP. For NY Times articles, simply change the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 19, 2001
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                              At 10:07 PM 11/19/2001, Mahesh Shantaram opined:
                              > From a weblogging/journalists point of view, I like what Rebecca Blood does.
                              >She mentions the the username (rebeccas_pocket) and password (I think it's
                              >"blood") of a dummy account beside an NYT link. That was very helpful,
                              >because earlier on, I wouldn't click on NYT links. The thought of a sign-up
                              >process would deter me.

                              All well and good, till the day NYTimes.com decides that it will restict a
                              user name to only one session or IP.

                              For NY Times articles, simply change the "www" in the URL to "partners" and
                              you'll get in without any login process. For example:
                              http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/19/international/asia/19MILI.html

                              This may not be the place for it, but I've always given false information
                              for any such registration process. I was born in 1970 in the Falkland
                              Islands, I'm in the lowest income group, I have absolutely no hobbies,
                              never buy online, and my ZIP code is 90210.

                              All false, of course.
                              But they probably don't have any targeted advertising for Falkland Islands :)

                              Do many of you do that too?


                              >I believe that as the Web goes form free to paid, user experience will take
                              >a kick due to widespread linkrot. I've written on this topic before:

                              We'll always have Google cache :P

                              Madhu

                              <<< * >>>
                              Madhu Menon
                              User Experience Consultant
                              e-mail: webguru@...

                              Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com
                            • Dan Lyke
                              ... I link to things I find interesting. If my readers can t figure out how to fill out a free registration box, or don t want to pay for the same publications
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 19, 2001
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                                jm writes:
                                > I was wondering what was your 'policy' about linking to articles
                                > that are not free (e.g. on WSJ, The Economist or Salon Premium) or
                                > that requires a cookie / free registration (NYTimes) ?

                                I link to things I find interesting. If my readers can't figure out
                                how to fill out a free registration box, or don't want to pay for the
                                same publications I pay for, that's their call.

                                If there's not a teaser at the site for non-paying members, I'll
                                probably go out of my way to describe why I think a particular
                                document is worthwhile, but so far Salon provides most of the meat of
                                the article, in fact enough that if you care you can go find the rest
                                of the facts in the article with Google, that it hasn't bothered me.

                                I should probably subscribe to the Economist, but I'm trying to cut
                                back on my mandatory reading.

                                Dan
                              • Brian Sobolak
                                Hello Madhu, Monday, November 19, 2001, 9:04:03 AM, you wrote: MM This may not be the place for it, but I ve always given false information MM for any such
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 20, 2001
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                                  Hello Madhu,

                                  Monday, November 19, 2001, 9:04:03 AM, you wrote:

                                  MM> This may not be the place for it, but I've always given false information
                                  MM> for any such registration process. I was born in 1970 in the Falkland
                                  MM> Islands, I'm in the lowest income group, I have absolutely no hobbies,
                                  MM> never buy online, and my ZIP code is 90210.

                                  MM> All false, of course.
                                  MM> But they probably don't have any targeted advertising for Falkland Islands :)

                                  MM> Do many of you do that too?

                                  Indeed. But I don't discriminate against just websites. I also do
                                  this on grocery store frequent buyer clubs, ordering pizza, and
                                  magazine subscriptions. billg has received a few Safeway Club Cards
                                  from me, and most people still give you a funny look when you give a
                                  very assumed name when ordering a sandwich (tuna on rye
                                  for...Batman?)

                                  It can be a useful technique for more than just identity hiding. I
                                  would give a fake title at most of the technical conferences I've
                                  attended, and then proceeded to see how they sell my name based upon
                                  the mail I receive with the fake title.

                                  brian

                                  --
                                  Got work? http://www.planetshwoop.com/resume/
                                  This is how I think: http://www.planetshwoop.com/blog/
                                  Brian Sobolak sobolak@...
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