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Jim in Chinese

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  • sslee
    Hi all, This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3 translations of Jim s works and been invited to have them posted on Literary Cafe, a
    Message 1 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
      Hi all,
      This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3
      translations of Jim's works and been invited to have them posted on Literary
      Cafe, a website co-sponsored by The United News's Literary Supplementary and
      Taiwan government's Council for Cultural Affairs. We both will get paid for
      this collaboration (enough for a luxurious dinner, I suppose).
      In our exchange of mail, Jim asked me a question that stunned me a little
      bit and that might be of interest to people who do translation: "Poseidon, I
      am of course interested in the translation...it is a different thing,
      perhaps, than typical translation. How have you found the process of
      translating the work? Would you even describe it as translation or something
      else?"
      Jim's query reminds me that I ain't just a typical translator but might be
      a transcoder. A couple years ago, some one translated Joyce's AFTERNOON
      into Italian, using the software STORYSPACE. That particular translator
      probably didn't have to worry about any coding things. Jim's manually coded
      works posed some difficulties to me, though. In all 3 cases, I had to plow
      thru the javascript to refix some numbers for things such as width, length,
      and speed, simply for the reason that the bit-space a Chinese block took was
      different from that of an English letter. All this has to do with technical
      stuff. The translation of a Children's picture book usually involves a few
      people, one taking care of the textual translation, others doing things such
      as layout. In the future, if a publisher's doing Flash/Director
      translation, he'll probably follow the same convention. The translation of
      Jim's coded works is supposed to be done in the same collaborated way.
      Lucky me that I can recognize a little bit of javascript of his. Poor me
      that I have to go thru all the labor by myself. And I don't think
      translation in this way will help much in the promotion of hypertext lit.
      The greatest challenge, however, is found in the translation of Jim's
      "enigma n." In a way, it can be claimed untranslatable. The only word for
      the text proper is MEANING. Yap, just that simple. Its 7 letters will
      dance wildly in the virtual air once the user initiates a button/command.
      It happens that the Chinese definition for MEANING consists of 2 blocks
      only. Obviously, the dance of 2 Chinese blocks won't match that of 7
      letters. Eventually I picked up a phrase of Derrida's, "There's nothing
      outside of the text." The translation is a perfect set of 7 Chinese blocks.
      Then I persuaded Jim to accept my suggestion / transformation, tapping his
      head saying that this Derrida' phrase implicitly echoed his text as a whole.
      This is probably why Jim was asking in the question that if I was a typical
      translator. Yes and no, obviously.
      I ain't specialist in translation, which is a serious field itself in
      academies. But somehow I can tell the various problems of digital
      translation gonna be a hot issue in that field.

      My translations of Jim are here:
      "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
      http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
      "Mi2 (Enigma n)"
      http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
      "Wen2 zi4 wun quan2 (Spas Text)"
      http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/StirFryTexts2/spasintro.htm
      "The Literary Cafe (the homepage where the translations are posted)":
      http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/index.html
      These translation is also available now on my own website: "The Garden of
      Forking Paths": http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden. Jim's works are at :
      http://www.vispo.com

      Best wishes from Taiwan,

      Poseidon Shuen-shing Lee
      Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
      NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
      04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
      Fax: 04-22852903
      sslee@...
      sslee@...
      http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
    • Jorge Luiz Antonio
      Congratulations, Jim. ©Jorge Luiz Antonio jlantonio@uol.com.br Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
      Message 2 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
        Congratulations, Jim.

        ©Jorge Luiz Antonio
        jlantonio@...
        Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
        http://www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "sslee" <sslee@...>
        To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 5:50 AM
        Subject: [webartery] Jim in Chinese


        > Hi all,
        > This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3
        > translations of Jim's works and been invited to have them posted on
        Literary
        > Cafe, a website co-sponsored by The United News's Literary Supplementary
        and
        > Taiwan government's Council for Cultural Affairs. We both will get paid
        for
        > this collaboration (enough for a luxurious dinner, I suppose).
        > In our exchange of mail, Jim asked me a question that stunned me a
        little
        > bit and that might be of interest to people who do translation: "Poseidon,
        I
        > am of course interested in the translation...it is a different thing,
        > perhaps, than typical translation. How have you found the process of
        > translating the work? Would you even describe it as translation or
        something
        > else?"
        > Jim's query reminds me that I ain't just a typical translator but might
        be
        > a transcoder. A couple years ago, some one translated Joyce's AFTERNOON
        > into Italian, using the software STORYSPACE. That particular translator
        > probably didn't have to worry about any coding things. Jim's manually
        coded
        > works posed some difficulties to me, though. In all 3 cases, I had to
        plow
        > thru the javascript to refix some numbers for things such as width,
        length,
        > and speed, simply for the reason that the bit-space a Chinese block took
        was
        > different from that of an English letter. All this has to do with
        technical
        > stuff. The translation of a Children's picture book usually involves a
        few
        > people, one taking care of the textual translation, others doing things
        such
        > as layout. In the future, if a publisher's doing Flash/Director
        > translation, he'll probably follow the same convention. The translation
        of
        > Jim's coded works is supposed to be done in the same collaborated way.
        > Lucky me that I can recognize a little bit of javascript of his. Poor me
        > that I have to go thru all the labor by myself. And I don't think
        > translation in this way will help much in the promotion of hypertext lit.
        > The greatest challenge, however, is found in the translation of Jim's
        > "enigma n." In a way, it can be claimed untranslatable. The only word
        for
        > the text proper is MEANING. Yap, just that simple. Its 7 letters will
        > dance wildly in the virtual air once the user initiates a button/command.
        > It happens that the Chinese definition for MEANING consists of 2 blocks
        > only. Obviously, the dance of 2 Chinese blocks won't match that of 7
        > letters. Eventually I picked up a phrase of Derrida's, "There's nothing
        > outside of the text." The translation is a perfect set of 7 Chinese
        blocks.
        > Then I persuaded Jim to accept my suggestion / transformation, tapping his
        > head saying that this Derrida' phrase implicitly echoed his text as a
        whole.
        > This is probably why Jim was asking in the question that if I was a
        typical
        > translator. Yes and no, obviously.
        > I ain't specialist in translation, which is a serious field itself in
        > academies. But somehow I can tell the various problems of digital
        > translation gonna be a hot issue in that field.
        >
        > My translations of Jim are here:
        > "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
        > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
        > "Mi2 (Enigma n)"
        > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
        > "Wen2 zi4 wun quan2 (Spas Text)"
        > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/StirFryTexts2/spasintro.htm
        > "The Literary Cafe (the homepage where the translations are posted)":
        > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/index.html
        > These translation is also available now on my own website: "The Garden
        of
        > Forking Paths": http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden. Jim's works are at :
        > http://www.vispo.com
        >
        > Best wishes from Taiwan,
        >
        > Poseidon Shuen-shing Lee
        > Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
        > NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
        > 04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
        > Fax: 04-22852903
        > sslee@...
        > sslee@...
        > http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Jorge Luiz Antonio
        I accessed: Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift) (done much earlier, actually) ... It is amazing to see unkown symbols moving on the screen. Gorgeous. Pound
        Message 3 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
          I accessed:
          "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
          > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
          It is amazing to see unkown symbols moving on the screen. Gorgeous.
          Pound said we should read more and more even not understanding a
          language.
          This is an oportunity to understand ... poetry? symbols? movement? art?
          Congratulations, Poseidon.

          ©Jorge Luiz Antonio
          jlantonio@...
          Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
          http://www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jorge Luiz Antonio" <jlantonio@...>
          To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:01 AM
          Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese


          > Congratulations, Jim.
          >
          > ©Jorge Luiz Antonio
          > jlantonio@...
          > Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
          > http://www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "sslee" <sslee@...>
          > To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 5:50 AM
          > Subject: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
          >
          >
          > > Hi all,
          > > This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3
          > > translations of Jim's works and been invited to have them posted on
          > Literary
          > > Cafe, a website co-sponsored by The United News's Literary Supplementary
          > and
          > > Taiwan government's Council for Cultural Affairs. We both will get paid
          > for
          > > this collaboration (enough for a luxurious dinner, I suppose).
          > > In our exchange of mail, Jim asked me a question that stunned me a
          > little
          > > bit and that might be of interest to people who do translation:
          "Poseidon,
          > I
          > > am of course interested in the translation...it is a different thing,
          > > perhaps, than typical translation. How have you found the process of
          > > translating the work? Would you even describe it as translation or
          > something
          > > else?"
          > > Jim's query reminds me that I ain't just a typical translator but
          might
          > be
          > > a transcoder. A couple years ago, some one translated Joyce's AFTERNOON
          > > into Italian, using the software STORYSPACE. That particular translator
          > > probably didn't have to worry about any coding things. Jim's manually
          > coded
          > > works posed some difficulties to me, though. In all 3 cases, I had to
          > plow
          > > thru the javascript to refix some numbers for things such as width,
          > length,
          > > and speed, simply for the reason that the bit-space a Chinese block took
          > was
          > > different from that of an English letter. All this has to do with
          > technical
          > > stuff. The translation of a Children's picture book usually involves a
          > few
          > > people, one taking care of the textual translation, others doing things
          > such
          > > as layout. In the future, if a publisher's doing Flash/Director
          > > translation, he'll probably follow the same convention. The translation
          > of
          > > Jim's coded works is supposed to be done in the same collaborated way.
          > > Lucky me that I can recognize a little bit of javascript of his. Poor
          me
          > > that I have to go thru all the labor by myself. And I don't think
          > > translation in this way will help much in the promotion of hypertext
          lit.
          > > The greatest challenge, however, is found in the translation of Jim's
          > > "enigma n." In a way, it can be claimed untranslatable. The only word
          > for
          > > the text proper is MEANING. Yap, just that simple. Its 7 letters will
          > > dance wildly in the virtual air once the user initiates a
          button/command.
          > > It happens that the Chinese definition for MEANING consists of 2 blocks
          > > only. Obviously, the dance of 2 Chinese blocks won't match that of 7
          > > letters. Eventually I picked up a phrase of Derrida's, "There's nothing
          > > outside of the text." The translation is a perfect set of 7 Chinese
          > blocks.
          > > Then I persuaded Jim to accept my suggestion / transformation, tapping
          his
          > > head saying that this Derrida' phrase implicitly echoed his text as a
          > whole.
          > > This is probably why Jim was asking in the question that if I was a
          > typical
          > > translator. Yes and no, obviously.
          > > I ain't specialist in translation, which is a serious field itself in
          > > academies. But somehow I can tell the various problems of digital
          > > translation gonna be a hot issue in that field.
          > >
          > > My translations of Jim are here:
          > > "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
          > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
          > > "Mi2 (Enigma n)"
          > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
          > > "Wen2 zi4 wun quan2 (Spas Text)"
          > >
          http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/StirFryTexts2/spasintro.htm
          > > "The Literary Cafe (the homepage where the translations are posted)":
          > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/index.html
          > > These translation is also available now on my own website: "The Garden
          > of
          > > Forking Paths": http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden. Jim's works are at :
          > > http://www.vispo.com
          > >
          > > Best wishes from Taiwan,
          > >
          > > Poseidon Shuen-shing Lee
          > > Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
          > > NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
          > > 04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
          > > Fax: 04-22852903
          > > sslee@...
          > > sslee@...
          > > http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • sslee
          To Jorge, (I just jot down what s come on me and I may have to walk away from my PC because a typhoon is approaching Taiwan) What Pound said of Chinese and
          Message 4 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
            To Jorge,
            (I just jot down what's come on me and I may have to walk away from my PC
            because a typhoon is approaching Taiwan)
            What Pound said of Chinese and Chinese poetry is INSPIRINGLY WRONG from
            the native perspective (or at least mine). His misunderstanding is very
            very beautiful, I promise you. And how ironical it is that I've never
            realized Chinese is so beautiful until Pound showed me its beauty from the
            WRONG side of the river. What's more, his misunderstanding has intrigued
            many critics since then. I'm reading Willard Bohn's _The Aesthetics of
            Visual Poetry_. When you see Bohn quoting Pound with full confidence, you
            just wonder if Truth has to be brought in to counterpoint the kind of Beauty
            Bohn and Pound are demonstrating to us.
            William Gibson got a digital work title "Agrippa." It's mostly about
            memory thing. Once the floppy disc is opened up and read, the text is
            erased subsequently. What's this for? It's form, a form to correspond to
            the subject of the content (memory), a form to embody the fading of memory.
            The form of Jim's Seattle Drift is doing things of the same kind. This
            union of form and content can be found in Talan's works as well. By the
            way, most of his latest pieces are untranslatable too....
            Best,

            Shuen-shing Lee
            Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
            NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
            04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
            Fax: 04-22852903
            sslee@...
            sslee@...
            http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jorge Luiz Antonio <jlantonio@...>
            To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 5:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese


            > I accessed:
            > "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
            > > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
            > It is amazing to see unkown symbols moving on the screen. Gorgeous.
            > Pound said we should read more and more even not understanding a
            > language.
            > This is an oportunity to understand ... poetry? symbols? movement?
            art?
            > Congratulations, Poseidon.
            >
            > ©Jorge Luiz Antonio
            > jlantonio@...
            > Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
            > http://www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Jorge Luiz Antonio" <jlantonio@...>
            > To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:01 AM
            > Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
            >
            >
            > > Congratulations, Jim.
            > >
            > > ©Jorge Luiz Antonio
            > > jlantonio@...
            > > Arte e poesia digitais brasileiras / Brazilian Digital Art and Poetry
            > > http://www.vispo.com/misc/BrazilianDigitalPoetry.htm
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "sslee" <sslee@...>
            > > To: <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 5:50 AM
            > > Subject: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
            > >
            > >
            > > > Hi all,
            > > > This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3
            > > > translations of Jim's works and been invited to have them posted on
            > > Literary
            > > > Cafe, a website co-sponsored by The United News's Literary
            Supplementary
            > > and
            > > > Taiwan government's Council for Cultural Affairs. We both will get
            paid
            > > for
            > > > this collaboration (enough for a luxurious dinner, I suppose).
            > > > In our exchange of mail, Jim asked me a question that stunned me a
            > > little
            > > > bit and that might be of interest to people who do translation:
            > "Poseidon,
            > > I
            > > > am of course interested in the translation...it is a different thing,
            > > > perhaps, than typical translation. How have you found the process of
            > > > translating the work? Would you even describe it as translation or
            > > something
            > > > else?"
            > > > Jim's query reminds me that I ain't just a typical translator but
            > might
            > > be
            > > > a transcoder. A couple years ago, some one translated Joyce's
            AFTERNOON
            > > > into Italian, using the software STORYSPACE. That particular
            translator
            > > > probably didn't have to worry about any coding things. Jim's manually
            > > coded
            > > > works posed some difficulties to me, though. In all 3 cases, I had to
            > > plow
            > > > thru the javascript to refix some numbers for things such as width,
            > > length,
            > > > and speed, simply for the reason that the bit-space a Chinese block
            took
            > > was
            > > > different from that of an English letter. All this has to do with
            > > technical
            > > > stuff. The translation of a Children's picture book usually involves
            a
            > > few
            > > > people, one taking care of the textual translation, others doing
            things
            > > such
            > > > as layout. In the future, if a publisher's doing Flash/Director
            > > > translation, he'll probably follow the same convention. The
            translation
            > > of
            > > > Jim's coded works is supposed to be done in the same collaborated way.
            > > > Lucky me that I can recognize a little bit of javascript of his. Poor
            > me
            > > > that I have to go thru all the labor by myself. And I don't think
            > > > translation in this way will help much in the promotion of hypertext
            > lit.
            > > > The greatest challenge, however, is found in the translation of
            Jim's
            > > > "enigma n." In a way, it can be claimed untranslatable. The only
            word
            > > for
            > > > the text proper is MEANING. Yap, just that simple. Its 7 letters
            will
            > > > dance wildly in the virtual air once the user initiates a
            > button/command.
            > > > It happens that the Chinese definition for MEANING consists of 2
            blocks
            > > > only. Obviously, the dance of 2 Chinese blocks won't match that of 7
            > > > letters. Eventually I picked up a phrase of Derrida's, "There's
            nothing
            > > > outside of the text." The translation is a perfect set of 7 Chinese
            > > blocks.
            > > > Then I persuaded Jim to accept my suggestion / transformation, tapping
            > his
            > > > head saying that this Derrida' phrase implicitly echoed his text as a
            > > whole.
            > > > This is probably why Jim was asking in the question that if I was a
            > > typical
            > > > translator. Yes and no, obviously.
            > > > I ain't specialist in translation, which is a serious field itself
            in
            > > > academies. But somehow I can tell the various problems of digital
            > > > translation gonna be a hot issue in that field.
            > > >
            > > > My translations of Jim are here:
            > > > "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
            > > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
            > > > "Mi2 (Enigma n)"
            > > >
            http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
            > > > "Wen2 zi4 wun quan2 (Spas Text)"
            > > >
            > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/StirFryTexts2/spasintro.htm
            > > > "The Literary Cafe (the homepage where the translations are posted)":
            > > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/index.html
            > > > These translation is also available now on my own website: "The
            Garden
            > > of
            > > > Forking Paths": http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden. Jim's works are at :
            > > > http://www.vispo.com
            > > >
            > > > Best wishes from Taiwan,
            > > >
            > > > Poseidon Shuen-shing Lee
            > > > Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
            > > > NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
            > > > 04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
            > > > Fax: 04-22852903
            > > > sslee@...
            > > > sslee@...
            > > > http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Jim Andrews
            ... Hey, this is so cool. I can t make the local newspaper here in Victoria. Thanks, so much, Poseidon. I am honoured that you have done such fantastic work!
            Message 5 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: sslee [mailto:sslee@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 1:51 AM
              > To: webartery@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
              >
              >
              > Hi all,
              > This is Poseidon reporting from Taiwan. Recently I have done 3
              > translations of Jim's works and been invited to have them posted
              > on Literary
              > Cafe, a website co-sponsored by The United News's Literary
              > Supplementary and
              > Taiwan government's Council for Cultural Affairs. We both will
              > get paid for
              > this collaboration (enough for a luxurious dinner, I suppose).

              Hey, this is so cool. I can't make the local newspaper here in Victoria.

              Thanks, so much, Poseidon. I am honoured that you have done such fantastic
              work! Which now is our net.wurk! And many more people's net.wurk.

              More below...I read your post below several times.

              > In our exchange of mail, Jim asked me a question that stunned
              > me a little
              > bit and that might be of interest to people who do translation:
              > "Poseidon, I
              > am of course interested in the translation...it is a different thing,
              > perhaps, than typical translation. How have you found the process of
              > translating the work? Would you even describe it as translation
              > or something
              > else?"
              > Jim's query reminds me that I ain't just a typical translator
              > but might be
              > a transcoder. A couple years ago, some one translated Joyce's AFTERNOON
              > into Italian, using the software STORYSPACE. That particular translator
              > probably didn't have to worry about any coding things. Jim's
              > manually coded
              > works posed some difficulties to me, though. In all 3 cases, I
              > had to plow
              > thru the javascript to refix some numbers for things such as
              > width, length,
              > and speed, simply for the reason that the bit-space a Chinese
              > block took was
              > different from that of an English letter. All this has to do
              > with technical
              > stuff. The translation of a Children's picture book usually
              > involves a few
              > people, one taking care of the textual translation, others doing
              > things such
              > as layout. In the future, if a publisher's doing Flash/Director
              > translation, he'll probably follow the same convention. The
              > translation of
              > Jim's coded works is supposed to be done in the same collaborated way.
              > Lucky me that I can recognize a little bit of javascript of his. Poor me
              > that I have to go thru all the labor by myself. And I don't think
              > translation in this way will help much in the promotion of hypertext lit.
              > The greatest challenge, however, is found in the translation of Jim's
              > "enigma n." In a way, it can be claimed untranslatable. The
              > only word for
              > the text proper is MEANING. Yap, just that simple. Its 7 letters will
              > dance wildly in the virtual air once the user initiates a button/command.
              > It happens that the Chinese definition for MEANING consists of 2 blocks
              > only. Obviously, the dance of 2 Chinese blocks won't match that of 7
              > letters. Eventually I picked up a phrase of Derrida's, "There's nothing
              > outside of the text." The translation is a perfect set of 7
              > Chinese blocks.
              > Then I persuaded Jim to accept my suggestion / transformation, tapping his
              > head saying that this Derrida' phrase implicitly echoed his text
              > as a whole.
              > This is probably why Jim was asking in the question that if I was
              > a typical
              > translator. Yes and no, obviously.
              > I ain't specialist in translation, which is a serious field itself in
              > academies. But somehow I can tell the various problems of digital
              > translation gonna be a hot issue in that field.

              Yes, well, much of the 'meaning' of Enigma n is in the way the letters
              dance, and in the way that raises questions about the meaning.

              I don't know if "There's nothing outside the text" is a 'good
              translation'--but I like what happens when you 'translate' it that way.
              Because it then raises another bunch of related questions.

              And also your work with the dance of the letters in that Big5 character set
              is really beautiful and though I do not understand the language, somehow
              there's a certain power in what you've done. I mean, I *really* don't
              understand times a million...and yet I do times another million. And so it
              kind of circles back in an appropriately mysterious but compelling way to
              the question of meaning and also the question of what's poetry? And it
              doesn't answer these questions, refuses to answer--particularly since I
              can't read the language--but in a very subtle and beautiful way, it does
              propose not an answer, perhaps, but a manifestion of what seems to me
              compelling and seductive power.

              It is a collaboration of a kind, then. This is what I was wondering about in
              the question I put to you about the 'translation process.'

              You have taken the work farther. And the poetics. And in the play between
              the English and the Chinese, there is a whole nother dimension that is
              available to those who don't read one or the other language (or both!). And,
              of course, to those who do read both, such as yourself.

              It is a beautifully mysterious piece of work you've done, and I can't say I
              really understand it, my friend, but that IS appropriate to certain aspects
              of the English version too, of course.

              I mean I get a very unusual and strong sense of not understanding and also
              understanding. To me, that is an important confusion.

              And I also thought of Pound and his translations and the fruitful 'mistakes'
              he made when we first talked about your translation, and I think you have
              gone for the poetry, not a literal translation, and I am very grateful to
              you for that, Poseidon.

              Regards,
              Jim.

              >
              > My translations of Jim are here:
              > "Xi ya3 tu2 piao liu2 (Seattle Drift)" (done much earlier, actually)
              > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/SeattleDrift.htm
              > "Mi2 (Enigma n)"
              > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
              > "Wen2 zi4 wun quan2 (Spas Text)"
              > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/StirFryTexts2/spasintro.htm
              > "The Literary Cafe (the homepage where the translations are posted)":
              > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/index.html
              > These translation is also available now on my own website: "The
              > Garden of
              > Forking Paths": http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden. Jim's works are at :
              > http://www.vispo.com
              >
              > Best wishes from Taiwan,
              >
              > Poseidon Shuen-shing Lee
              > Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
              > NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
              > 04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message)
              > Fax: 04-22852903
              > sslee@...
              > sslee@...
              > http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
            • Jim Andrews
              ... Lord, I remember when the quake hit Taiwan and we lost touch with you for quite a while, and the whole story you told us afterwards about that experience,
              Message 6 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: sslee [mailto:sslee@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 2:59 AM
                > To: webartery@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
                >
                >
                > To Jorge,
                > (I just jot down what's come on me and I may have to walk away
                > from my PC
                > because a typhoon is approaching Taiwan)

                Lord, I remember when the quake hit Taiwan and we lost touch with you for
                quite a while, and the whole story you told us afterwards about that
                experience, and of returning to the condemned building in which your office
                and computer were located, and finding it still running, and messages from
                webartery wondering how you were. Well, batten down the hatches, my friend.
                I hope your nick Poseidon shelters you well in this one.

                > What Pound said of Chinese and Chinese poetry is INSPIRINGLY WRONG from
                > the native perspective (or at least mine). His misunderstanding is very
                > very beautiful, I promise you. And how ironical it is that I've never
                > realized Chinese is so beautiful until Pound showed me its beauty from the
                > WRONG side of the river. What's more, his misunderstanding has intrigued
                > many critics since then. I'm reading Willard Bohn's _The Aesthetics of
                > Visual Poetry_. When you see Bohn quoting Pound with full confidence, you
                > just wonder if Truth has to be brought in to counterpoint the
                > kind of Beauty
                > Bohn and Pound are demonstrating to us.
                > William Gibson got a digital work title "Agrippa." It's mostly about
                > memory thing. Once the floppy disc is opened up and read, the text is
                > erased subsequently. What's this for? It's form, a form to correspond to
                > the subject of the content (memory), a form to embody the fading
                > of memory.
                > The form of Jim's Seattle Drift is doing things of the same kind. This
                > union of form and content can be found in Talan's works as well. By the
                > way, most of his latest pieces are untranslatable too....

                Fortuitous, perhaps, in that if they are untranslatable, in certain ways
                then, as in the way you handled Enigma n, we are forced to rethink what
                arises from the process of taking something from several languages to a
                similar but different set of languages, and perhaps can then open the result
                to a play between one another and a play among other texts and languages, as
                you have done.

                We are across the Pacific Ocean from one another. May that forecasted
                typhoon encounter your gorgeous work before it hits (I understand there is
                an undersea cable carrying the Internet to Taiwan), and busy itself instead
                in vortexical contemplation of mystery and meaning, blow itself away in
                another direction altogether.

                Regards,
                Jim
              • Jim Andrews
                I have been mucking with Poseidon s http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a
                Message 7 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
                  I have been mucking with Poseidon's
                  http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
                  version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a couple of questions for
                  Poseidon and a request of webartery members.

                  There are now four versions of Enigma n: a Netscape 4 version in English, an
                  IE 4+ version in English, a Chinese Netscape 4 version, and a Chinese IE 4+
                  version.

                  I've been playing with the Chinese IE 4+ version. In both the Chinese and
                  English IE 4+ version, you can make the font size increase (it's called
                  'Discombobulate' in the English version at
                  http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html).

                  An awesome thing happens on my system when I discombobulate meaning once in
                  the Chinese version for IE 4+. The fontSize grows from 32 to 132 and then
                  the entire computer system's language display system begins to speak in
                  tongues (or, more likely, binary). The Chinese characters disappear and are
                  replaced with rectangles. Some of the Chinese characters elsewhere on screen
                  (not the main seven ones) disappear completely. And when I then surf to
                  www.vispo.com and look in the drop down menu, which of course is in English,
                  I read not English, but binary. So that the entire language display system
                  has been altered until I reboot, at which point it is returned to its normal
                  state.

                  New language for sure!

                  My request of webartery members is to see if you also cause your machine to
                  speak in tongues running the Chinese version for IE 4+ at
                  http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm .
                  Please go to that page using IE 4+, click the link, enter Enigma n, and then
                  click away on the top left menu items. The more you click, the more menu
                  items appear. The Chinese equivalent of the 'discombobulate' option is the
                  seventh menu option from the left. It is the one to the right of the option
                  that allows you to change the color of the text. Anyway, when the fontSize
                  increases, the question is does this eventually fry your computer's mind and
                  the Chinese characters are replaced with rectangles? Or is it an
                  idiosyncracy of my system? I have given it Acid too many times, maybe.
                  Poseidon tells me it doesn't happen on the computers in his area in Taiwan.

                  You don't have to worry about any permanent damage to your computer's mind.
                  It is fine upon reboot should the 'problem' occur.

                  I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the solution
                  is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                  question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                  (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if (parseInt(fontSize)
                  > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to know if this is
                  just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.

                  I also updated both the Traditional Chinese Language Support and the
                  Simplified Chinese Language Support available from Windows update, but the
                  problem persists nonetheless.

                  Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of Enigma
                  n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                  partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                  different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature of Enigma n.
                  Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                  does it mean?

                  I checked the news concerning Typhoon Utor headed for Taiwan. It sounds
                  nasty. Hope this finds you well.

                  Regards,
                  Jim.
                • sslee
                  Jim Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of Enigma n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
                    Jim>> Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of
                    Enigma
                    n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                    partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                    different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature of Enigma n.
                    Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                    does it mean?

                    Poseidon>>This gonna kill more brain cells of yours. I've rechecked the
                    "mouseover the screen" thing and is surprised to see that the partition /
                    mouseover function is only effective on the Chinese version of enigma n on
                    my Chinese IE4+. The mouseover-the-screen brings no change to the dance of
                    the 7 letters in your English version either. I didn't change any essential
                    parts of your codes in the file, as you can tell....
                    I remember a critic says an electronic text is digitally a poli-text.
                    Its form or even the meaning of its content changes along with the different
                    inferface/system where it's displayed.... Well, this type of philosophical
                    talk won't bring any solution to your technical problem. It still has
                    something to do with my digital translation, though.
                    What we gonna do next? Do we have to make both copies exactly the same
                    in effects and form?
                    We do really need a universal browser....

                    Poseidon
                    Shuen-shing Lee
                    Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
                    NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
                    04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message; ????)
                    Fax: 04-22852903
                    sslee@...
                    sslee@...
                    http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Jim Andrews <jim@...>
                    To: Webartery@Egroups. Com <webartery@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:36 AM
                    Subject: [webartery] Re: Jim in Chinese


                    > I have been mucking with Poseidon's
                    > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
                    > version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a couple of questions for
                    > Poseidon and a request of webartery members.
                    >
                    > There are now four versions of Enigma n: a Netscape 4 version in English,
                    an
                    > IE 4+ version in English, a Chinese Netscape 4 version, and a Chinese IE
                    4+
                    > version.
                    >
                    > I've been playing with the Chinese IE 4+ version. In both the Chinese and
                    > English IE 4+ version, you can make the font size increase (it's called
                    > 'Discombobulate' in the English version at
                    > http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html).
                    >
                    > An awesome thing happens on my system when I discombobulate meaning once
                    in
                    > the Chinese version for IE 4+. The fontSize grows from 32 to 132 and then
                    > the entire computer system's language display system begins to speak in
                    > tongues (or, more likely, binary). The Chinese characters disappear and
                    are
                    > replaced with rectangles. Some of the Chinese characters elsewhere on
                    screen
                    > (not the main seven ones) disappear completely. And when I then surf to
                    > www.vispo.com and look in the drop down menu, which of course is in
                    English,
                    > I read not English, but binary. So that the entire language display system
                    > has been altered until I reboot, at which point it is returned to its
                    normal
                    > state.
                    >
                    > New language for sure!
                    >
                    > My request of webartery members is to see if you also cause your machine
                    to
                    > speak in tongues running the Chinese version for IE 4+ at
                    > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm .
                    > Please go to that page using IE 4+, click the link, enter Enigma n, and
                    then
                    > click away on the top left menu items. The more you click, the more menu
                    > items appear. The Chinese equivalent of the 'discombobulate' option is the
                    > seventh menu option from the left. It is the one to the right of the
                    option
                    > that allows you to change the color of the text. Anyway, when the fontSize
                    > increases, the question is does this eventually fry your computer's mind
                    and
                    > the Chinese characters are replaced with rectangles? Or is it an
                    > idiosyncracy of my system? I have given it Acid too many times, maybe.
                    > Poseidon tells me it doesn't happen on the computers in his area in
                    Taiwan.
                    >
                    > You don't have to worry about any permanent damage to your computer's
                    mind.
                    > It is fine upon reboot should the 'problem' occur.
                    >
                    > I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the
                    solution
                    > is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                    > question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                    > (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if
                    (parseInt(fontSize)
                    > > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to know if this
                    is
                    > just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.
                    >
                    > I also updated both the Traditional Chinese Language Support and the
                    > Simplified Chinese Language Support available from Windows update, but the
                    > problem persists nonetheless.
                    >
                    > Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of
                    Enigma
                    > n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                    > partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                    > different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature of Enigma
                    n.
                    > Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                    > does it mean?
                    >
                    > I checked the news concerning Typhoon Utor headed for Taiwan. It sounds
                    > nasty. Hope this finds you well.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Jim.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • sslee
                    Jim I have experimented and found a simple fix for this problem : the solution is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
                      Jim>>I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the
                      solution
                      is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                      question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                      (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if (parseInt(fontSize)
                      > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to know if this is
                      just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.

                      Poseidon>> I've tested the number change in this line "if
                      (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" [in the function movealetter(letter),actually],
                      according to your instruction. It runs perfectly. Do you want this change
                      in the official Chinese copy (IE4+)? It poses another problem. I have no
                      direct access to the FTP of the Literary Cafe. Have to check with its
                      technician first. Please backchannel me.

                      Best,

                      Big P.
                      Shuen-shing Lee
                      Dept. of Foreign Lang and Lit
                      NCHU, Taichung, Taiwan 402
                      04-22840322, ext., 741 or 777(message; ????)
                      Fax: 04-22852903
                      sslee@...
                      sslee@...
                      http://benz.nchu.edu.tw/~garden
                    • Jim Andrews
                      ... ehehe I ve rechecked the ... I disabled the mouseover effect in the current English IE version a couple of months ago, though you can see the code is still
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 4, 2001
                        > Jim>> Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of
                        > Enigma
                        > n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                        > partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                        > different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature
                        > of Enigma n.
                        > Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                        > does it mean?
                        >
                        > Poseidon>>This gonna kill more brain cells of yours.

                        ehehe

                        I've rechecked the
                        > "mouseover the screen" thing and is surprised to see that the partition /
                        > mouseover function is only effective on the Chinese version of enigma n on
                        > my Chinese IE4+. The mouseover-the-screen brings no change to
                        > the dance of
                        > the 7 letters in your English version either. I didn't change
                        > any essential
                        > parts of your codes in the file, as you can tell....
                        > I remember a critic says an electronic text is digitally a poli-text.
                        > Its form or even the meaning of its content changes along with
                        > the different
                        > inferface/system where it's displayed.... Well, this type of
                        > philosophical
                        > talk won't bring any solution to your technical problem. It still has
                        > something to do with my digital translation, though.
                        > What we gonna do next? Do we have to make both copies exactly the same
                        > in effects and form?
                        > We do really need a universal browser....


                        I disabled the mouseover effect in the current English IE version a couple
                        of months ago, though you can see the code is still in it, as in your
                        Chinese version, in which it's operational. It's still operational in the
                        English Netscape version, but it is a click and drag thing in Netscape, not
                        simply mouseover. I didn't like the way that the mouseover plus the tendency
                        to have the mouse around the menu items top left created a situation where
                        the English letters tended not to be center stage but hovered up around top
                        left (less focussed). So why don't we make two changes: disable the
                        mouseover character clustering and also make the change I mentioned earlier
                        about 125 vs 200. You OK with these changes? If so, do you want to change
                        them or should I?

                        A friend of mine with Win 98 and IE 5.5 tried your work tonight and it
                        didn't fry his computer's mind like it did mine, though it fried his own
                        mind, which was good. In fact he prefers the Chinese version to the English
                        version though he doesn't read Chinese.

                        So if it didn't fry his system, maybe it's anomolous to my system, or very
                        few systems. But, yes, my computer has lost some brain cells. Would be nice
                        to hear from a couple of webartery folks though to see if it fried their
                        systems. Of course, people are somewhat hesitant to test such propositions.

                        Regards,
                        Jim

                        > Subject: [webartery] Re: Jim in Chinese
                        >
                        >
                        > > I have been mucking with Poseidon's
                        > > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
                        > > version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a couple of questions for
                        > > Poseidon and a request of webartery members.
                        > >
                        > > There are now four versions of Enigma n: a Netscape 4 version
                        > in English,
                        > an
                        > > IE 4+ version in English, a Chinese Netscape 4 version, and a Chinese IE
                        > 4+
                        > > version.
                        > >
                        > > I've been playing with the Chinese IE 4+ version. In both the
                        > Chinese and
                        > > English IE 4+ version, you can make the font size increase (it's called
                        > > 'Discombobulate' in the English version at
                        > > http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html).
                        > >
                        > > An awesome thing happens on my system when I discombobulate meaning once
                        > in
                        > > the Chinese version for IE 4+. The fontSize grows from 32 to
                        > 132 and then
                        > > the entire computer system's language display system begins to speak in
                        > > tongues (or, more likely, binary). The Chinese characters disappear and
                        > are
                        > > replaced with rectangles. Some of the Chinese characters elsewhere on
                        > screen
                        > > (not the main seven ones) disappear completely. And when I then surf to
                        > > www.vispo.com and look in the drop down menu, which of course is in
                        > English,
                        > > I read not English, but binary. So that the entire language
                        > display system
                        > > has been altered until I reboot, at which point it is returned to its
                        > normal
                        > > state.
                        > >
                        > > New language for sure!
                        > >
                        > > My request of webartery members is to see if you also cause your machine
                        > to
                        > > speak in tongues running the Chinese version for IE 4+ at
                        > >
                        > http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm .
                        > > Please go to that page using IE 4+, click the link, enter Enigma n, and
                        > then
                        > > click away on the top left menu items. The more you click, the more menu
                        > > items appear. The Chinese equivalent of the 'discombobulate'
                        > option is the
                        > > seventh menu option from the left. It is the one to the right of the
                        > option
                        > > that allows you to change the color of the text. Anyway, when
                        > the fontSize
                        > > increases, the question is does this eventually fry your computer's mind
                        > and
                        > > the Chinese characters are replaced with rectangles? Or is it an
                        > > idiosyncracy of my system? I have given it Acid too many times, maybe.
                        > > Poseidon tells me it doesn't happen on the computers in his area in
                        > Taiwan.
                        > >
                        > > You don't have to worry about any permanent damage to your computer's
                        > mind.
                        > > It is fine upon reboot should the 'problem' occur.
                        > >
                        > > I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the
                        > solution
                        > > is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon,
                        > the line in
                        > > question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                        > > (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if
                        > (parseInt(fontSize)
                        > > > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to
                        > know if this
                        > is
                        > > just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.
                        > >
                        > > I also updated both the Traditional Chinese Language Support and the
                        > > Simplified Chinese Language Support available from Windows
                        > update, but the
                        > > problem persists nonetheless.
                        > >
                        > > Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of
                        > Enigma
                        > > n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving,
                        > the letters
                        > > partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                        > > different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature
                        > of Enigma
                        > n.
                        > > Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with
                        > it, and what
                        > > does it mean?
                        > >
                        > > I checked the news concerning Typhoon Utor headed for Taiwan. It sounds
                        > > nasty. Hope this finds you well.
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > > Jim.
                      • Ana Maria Uribe
                        I have Win98 and IE 5.5, and nothing catastrophic happened even when I changed the 200 to 800, though it got very slow then. The visual structure of this
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 5, 2001
                          I have Win98 and IE 5.5, and nothing catastrophic happened even when I changed the  > 200 to > 800, though it got very slow then.
                           
                          The visual structure of this work, with each character  moving independently, makes it specially well suited to the beautiful Chinese script,  and though I can't read Chinese, Poseidon's use of Derrida's words seems a very good solution.
                           
                          Ana Maria
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:36 PM
                          Subject: [webartery] Re: Jim in Chinese

                          I have been mucking with Poseidon's
                          http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
                          version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a couple of questions for
                          Poseidon and a request of webartery members.

                          There are now four versions of Enigma n: a Netscape 4 version in English, an
                          IE 4+ version in English, a Chinese Netscape 4 version, and a Chinese IE 4+
                          version.

                          I've been playing with the Chinese IE 4+ version. In both the Chinese and
                          English IE 4+ version, you can make the font size increase (it's called
                          'Discombobulate' in the English version at
                          http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html).

                          An awesome thing happens on my system when I discombobulate meaning once in
                          the Chinese version for IE 4+. The fontSize grows from 32 to 132 and then
                          the entire computer system's language display system begins to speak in
                          tongues (or, more likely, binary). The Chinese characters disappear and are
                          replaced with rectangles. Some of the Chinese characters elsewhere on screen
                          (not the main seven ones) disappear completely. And when I then surf to
                          www.vispo.com and look in the drop down menu, which of course is in English,
                          I read not English, but binary. So that the entire language display system
                          has been altered until I reboot, at which point it is returned to its normal
                          state.

                          New language for sure!

                          My request of webartery members is to see if you also cause your machine to
                          speak in tongues running the Chinese version for IE 4+ at
                          http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm .
                          Please go to that page using IE 4+, click the link, enter Enigma n, and then
                          click away on the top left menu items. The more you click, the more menu
                          items appear. The Chinese equivalent of the 'discombobulate' option is the
                          seventh menu option from the left. It is the one to the right of the option
                          that allows you to change the color of the text. Anyway, when the fontSize
                          increases, the question is does this eventually fry your computer's mind and
                          the Chinese characters are replaced with rectangles? Or is it an
                          idiosyncracy of my system? I have given it Acid too many times, maybe.
                          Poseidon tells me it doesn't happen on the computers in his area in Taiwan.

                          You don't have to worry about any permanent damage to your computer's mind.
                          It is fine upon reboot should the 'problem' occur.

                          I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the solution
                          is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                          question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                          (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if (parseInt(fontSize)
                          > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to know if this is
                          just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.

                          I also updated both the Traditional Chinese Language Support and the
                          Simplified Chinese Language Support available from Windows update, but the
                          problem persists nonetheless.

                          Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of Enigma
                          n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                          partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                          different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature of Enigma n.
                          Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                          does it mean?

                          I checked the news concerning Typhoon Utor headed for Taiwan. It sounds
                          nasty. Hope this finds you well.

                          Regards,
                          Jim.


                           

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Jim Andrews
                          I have Win98 and IE 5.5, and nothing catastrophic happened Thank you, Ana Maria!! Nobody else has responded. even when I changed the 200 to 800, though it
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 5, 2001
                            I have Win98 and IE 5.5, and nothing catastrophic happened  
                             
                            Thank you, Ana Maria!! Nobody else has responded.
                             
                             even when I changed the  > 200 to > 800, though it got very slow then. 
                             
                            Wow. Trust you to set it to 800! Well it's starting to sound like it's my computer that is the problem. Maybe I have too many fonts installed. I'll uninstall some fonts and see if that helps. But I'll bet you have quite a few installed also, Ana Maria.  
                             
                            The visual structure of this work, with each character  moving independently, makes it specially well suited to the beautiful Chinese script,  and though I can't read Chinese, Poseidon's use of Derrida's words seems a very good solution. 
                             
                            Yes, it's a curious and wonderful 'translation'. I mean, just about everything is outside of the text except the text. But there's an invisible little hole in the text (and I don't just mean this piece by Poseidon and me) complimentary to the whole in the head that permits the whole thing  to respirate, begin breathing, and eventually breathe or be breathed in by the big brain in the sky, dissolve many boundaries. Or something.
                             
                            Hope this finds you well, Ana Maria, and thanks again.
                             
                            What are you working on?
                             
                            Regards,
                            Jim
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 9:36 PM
                            Subject: [webartery] Re: Jim in Chinese

                            I have been mucking with Poseidon's
                            http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm
                            version of Enigma n. Fascinating, and I have a couple of questions for
                            Poseidon and a request of webartery members.

                            There are now four versions of Enigma n: a Netscape 4 version in English, an
                            IE 4+ version in English, a Chinese Netscape 4 version, and a Chinese IE 4+
                            version.

                            I've been playing with the Chinese IE 4+ version. In both the Chinese and
                            English IE 4+ version, you can make the font size increase (it's called
                            'Discombobulate' in the English version at
                            http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html).

                            An awesome thing happens on my system when I discombobulate meaning once in
                            the Chinese version for IE 4+. The fontSize grows from 32 to 132 and then
                            the entire computer system's language display system begins to speak in
                            tongues (or, more likely, binary). The Chinese characters disappear and are
                            replaced with rectangles. Some of the Chinese characters elsewhere on screen
                            (not the main seven ones) disappear completely. And when I then surf to
                            www.vispo.com and look in the drop down menu, which of course is in English,
                            I read not English, but binary. So that the entire language display system
                            has been altered until I reboot, at which point it is returned to its normal
                            state.

                            New language for sure!

                            My request of webartery members is to see if you also cause your machine to
                            speak in tongues running the Chinese version for IE 4+ at
                            http://www.cca.gov.tw/coffee/author/sslee/arts/enigman2/enigmanintro.htm .
                            Please go to that page using IE 4+, click the link, enter Enigma n, and then
                            click away on the top left menu items. The more you click, the more menu
                            items appear. The Chinese equivalent of the 'discombobulate' option is the
                            seventh menu option from the left. It is the one to the right of the option
                            that allows you to change the color of the text. Anyway, when the fontSize
                            increases, the question is does this eventually fry your computer's mind and
                            the Chinese characters are replaced with rectangles? Or is it an
                            idiosyncracy of my system? I have given it Acid too many times, maybe.
                            Poseidon tells me it doesn't happen on the computers in his area in Taiwan.

                            You don't have to worry about any permanent damage to your computer's mind.
                            It is fine upon reboot should the 'problem' occur.

                            I have experimented and found a simple fix for this 'problem': the solution
                            is to not allow the fontSize to increase beyond 125. Poseidon, the line in
                            question is in function moveit. My system is fine if the line "if
                            (parseInt(fontSize) > 200" is replace with the line "if (parseInt(fontSize)
                            > 125". But before you make this change, it would be nice to know if this is
                            just my problem or whether it is somehow an East vs West computer thang.

                            I also updated both the Traditional Chinese Language Support and the
                            Simplified Chinese Language Support available from Windows update, but the
                            problem persists nonetheless.

                            Also, I have a question for you, Poseidon. In the English version of Enigma
                            n, when you mouseover the screen when the letters are moving, the letters
                            partition themselves into different groups that spell different words at
                            different times. You undoubtedly are familiar with this feature of Enigma n.
                            Did you 'translate' this feature at all? What did you do with it, and what
                            does it mean?

                            I checked the news concerning Typhoon Utor headed for Taiwan. It sounds
                            nasty. Hope this finds you well.

                            Regards,
                            Jim.

                          • Reiner Strasser
                            Hi Geo - on the Mac you have to install world script (something like this) first - it is on your System CD - afterwards you can look at it (because it meshed
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                              Hi Geo -

                              on the Mac you have to install "world script" (something like this)
                              first - it is on your System CD - afterwards you can look at it
                              (because it meshed up my System when updating - i removed it in 9.1).
                              or
                              You use MacOS X - where it is built in automatically
                              (in X you can choose every - well not every - language in a seperate window
                              - haha even change the menue bar to chinese when you want - that is funny -
                              i sometimes surf with X ...........)

                              best

                              Reiner

                              > Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn't see, but when I open
                              > the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                              > IE5(Mac) for Chinese characters? If so, how do I do that?
                            • George Hartley
                              Hi Jim, Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn t see, but when I open the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                Hi Jim,
                                Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn't see, but when I open
                                the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                                IE5(Mac) for Chinese characters? If so, how do I do that?

                                The English version is a lot of fun--I can't wait to see the Chinese (which
                                I can't read but enjoy looking at).

                                Geo



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                              • Alan Sondheim
                                You can also download mview, I think it s on otaku web (something like that) - works reasonably well, Chinese/Japanese/Korean - Alan ... Internet text at
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                  You can also download mview, I think it's on otaku web (something like
                                  that) - works reasonably well, Chinese/Japanese/Korean - Alan

                                  On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Reiner Strasser wrote:

                                  > Hi Geo -
                                  >
                                  > on the Mac you have to install "world script" (something like this)
                                  > first - it is on your System CD - afterwards you can look at it
                                  > (because it meshed up my System when updating - i removed it in 9.1).
                                  > or
                                  > You use MacOS X - where it is built in automatically
                                  > (in X you can choose every - well not every - language in a seperate window
                                  > - haha even change the menue bar to chinese when you want - that is funny -
                                  > i sometimes surf with X ...........)
                                  >
                                  > best
                                  >
                                  > Reiner
                                  >
                                  > > Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn't see, but when I open
                                  > > the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                                  > > IE5(Mac) for Chinese characters? If so, how do I do that?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
                                  Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
                                  Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
                                  CDROM of collected work 1994-2000/1 available: write sondheim@...
                                • Ana Maria Uribe
                                  ... From: Jim Andrews To: webartery@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: RE: [webartery] Jim in Chinese . But there s an invisible
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:21 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [webartery] Jim in Chinese

                                     
                                     
                                    .  
                                     
                                    But there's an invisible little hole in the text (and I don't just mean this piece by Poseidon and me) complimentary to the whole in the head that permits the whole thing  to respirate, begin breathing, and eventually breathe or be breathed in by the big brain in the sky, dissolve many boundaries. Or something.
                                     
                                    Is it another enigma?
                                    <FONT color=gray>.</FONT>?
                                    If not, sorry for being so concrete.
                                     
                                    Hope this finds you well, Ana Maria, and thanks again.
                                     
                                    What are you working on?
                                     
                                    I'm working on a new series of animated poems but I don't like the result, and I'm looking for a different solution. So in the meantime I'm trying to teach myself javascript with the help of a book weighing about one kilo and by peeping into other people's codes. Thank you for explaining so much in yours.  
                                     
                                    Ana Maria
                                  • Jim Andrews
                                    Hi George, I see that John Caley more or less answered your question on the epoetry 2001 list: you have to install the font via rooting around in the Internet
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                      Hi George,

                                      I see that John Caley more or less answered your question on the epoetry
                                      2001 list: you have to install the font via rooting around in the Internet
                                      Options of your browser.

                                      Mind, these are DHTML/javascript pieces. I have seen them all on the Mac and
                                      only Seattle Drift was more or less as it is on the PC. The last time I
                                      checked, the Mac browser, even IE 5, nevermind your Mac Netscape, was not
                                      real great in its DHTML implementation. So you are likely, even with
                                      installing the Chinese, to see something other than what either Shuen-shing
                                      or I had in mind, but maybe that's a different meaning. Lots of question
                                      marks.

                                      Regards,
                                      Jim

                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: George Hartley [mailto:hartleyg@...]
                                      > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:18 AM
                                      > To: webartery@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Jim,
                                      > Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn't see, but
                                      > when I open
                                      > the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                                      > IE5(Mac) for Chinese characters? If so, how do I do that?
                                      >
                                      > The English version is a lot of fun--I can't wait to see the
                                      > Chinese (which
                                      > I can't read but enjoy looking at).
                                      >
                                      > Geo
                                    • Jim Andrews
                                      Oops, sorry, hadn t read this when posting earlier to George. Thanks, Reiner. j
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                        Oops, sorry, hadn't read this when posting earlier to George. Thanks,
                                        Reiner.
                                        j

                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Reiner Strasser [mailto:reiner.s@...]
                                        > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 5:30 AM
                                        > To: webartery@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [webartery] Jim in Chinese
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Geo -
                                        >
                                        > on the Mac you have to install "world script" (something like this)
                                        > first - it is on your System CD - afterwards you can look at it
                                        > (because it meshed up my System when updating - i removed it in 9.1).
                                        > or
                                        > You use MacOS X - where it is built in automatically
                                        > (in X you can choose every - well not every - language in a
                                        > seperate window
                                        > - haha even change the menue bar to chinese when you want - that
                                        > is funny -
                                        > i sometimes surf with X ...........)
                                        >
                                        > best
                                        >
                                        > Reiner
                                        >
                                        > > Someone may have asked this in an earlier post I didn't see,
                                        > but when I open
                                        > > the Chinese version I only get question marks. Do I have to configure my
                                        > > IE5(Mac) for Chinese characters? If so, how do I do that?
                                      • Jim Andrews
                                        . But there s an invisible little hole in the text (and I don t just mean this piece by Poseidon and me) complimentary to the whole in the head that permits
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jul 6, 2001
                                          .  
                                           
                                          But there's an invisible little hole in the text (and I don't just mean this piece by Poseidon and me) complimentary to the whole in the head that permits the whole thing  to respirate, begin breathing, and eventually breathe or be breathed in by the big brain in the sky, dissolve many boundaries. Or something.
                                           
                                          Is it another enigma?
                                          <FONT color=gray>.</FONT>?  
                                           
                                          ehehe, there it is.
                                           
                                          I put that in so people would know when they had reached the dead end of the 'sentence'.
                                           
                                          If not, sorry for being so concrete. 
                                           
                                          I detect some hurt around the concrete issue. Understandably. I look forward to seeing what you're up to, Ana Maria. Please do post to the list when you have new work up. I thought of you when I read the following in an essay: "I could begin with numerous poets who are returning to concretist or lettrist predecessors, many of which brought together on VisPo and UbuWeb. " 
                                           
                                          There is much more happening in your work than concrete, and lettrisme to me is important but I am hardly a lettrist, much as I admire many lettrist pieces.
                                           
                                          Hope this finds you well, Ana Maria, and thanks again.
                                           
                                          What are you working on?
                                           
                                          I'm working on a new series of animated poems but I don't like the result, and I'm looking for a different solution. So in the meantime I'm trying to teach myself javascript with the help of a book weighing about one kilo and by peeping into other people's codes. Thank you for explaining so much in yours.   
                                           
                                          I am honored that you would find it worth peeping at, Ana Maria. That is basically how I learned Javascript/DHTML too. I put in some pretty good links in the "See Also" section of http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/EnigmanInfoanimism.html to Javascript/DHTML docs. Concerning IE, you can do no better than the 'Microsoft Sitebuilder Documentation'. But that is reference material, not a 'manual' style set of docs. Concerning Netscape, the link to 'Netscape Documentation' is good.
                                           
                                          It is unfortunate that cross-browser DHTML is such a hopelessly tangled tale. You probably saw that there is a Netscape version (well, two now, one in Chinese, one in English) of Enigma n and two IE versions (one in English, one in Chinese). The opening file, http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman/meaning.html does some browser sniffing and redirects accordingly.
                                           
                                          But the Mac and also Opera and Netscape 6, the browser sniffing does not work properly for those browsers: I should really just bar the door, unfortunately, to those browsers for my DHTML work.
                                           
                                          One of the reasons I like Flash and Director is because they work nicely for both the Mac and the PC. And Opera. Unfortunately they do not work on Linux.
                                           
                                          You have used Java in your work, yes? That is a very nice language.
                                           
                                          Regards,
                                          Jim
                                        • George Hartley
                                          I ve been out of touch for a few days, but I wanted to thank everyone for their help in getting to see the Chinese characters. And yes, as it turns out I did
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jul 8, 2001
                                            I've been out of touch for a few days, but I wanted to thank everyone for
                                            their help in getting to see the Chinese characters. And yes, as it turns
                                            out I did have all this ready for installation on my system 9.1 CD.

                                            And I just wanna say generally how much I've learned in the past three
                                            months since signing onto Webartery. What an engaging community!

                                            Best,
                                            George



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                                          • elijah wright
                                            ... hi, geo - it seems to work fine for me on IE6 (early beta, haven t updated it in a while) but doesn t do so well on mozilla (linux, recently updated to a
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
                                              > Please let me know if this doesn't work for you on your system or if the
                                              > popup or image loads don't work out right. I mainly want to avoid having a
                                              > reader quit before the thing even starts.

                                              hi, geo - it seems to work fine for me on IE6 (early beta, haven't updated
                                              it in a while) but doesn't do so well on mozilla (linux, recently updated
                                              to a recent mozilla version). the large image flipper seems to load, but
                                              the text underneath that says "America is the land of the free!" never
                                              appears and i can't see it being replaced.

                                              lemme know if there's more i can do to help - i should probably do 'view
                                              source' and figure out why it doesn't work, but i'm feeling a lil' bit
                                              lazy right now :) :)

                                              elijah
                                            • George Hartley
                                              I ve just completed a first draft of a new web poem, Red Scare 1956.http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~hartleyg/epoetry/redscare/redscare.htmlI have the poem
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                I've just completed a first draft of a new web poem, "Red Scare 1956."

                                                http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~hartleyg/epoetry/redscare/redscare.html

                                                I have the poem open with an explanatory popup window, which I've done for
                                                two reasons: two give readers some idea of what to expect and, two, to
                                                distract readers while the numerous images are loading.

                                                Please let me know if this doesn't work for you on your system or if the
                                                popup or image loads don't work out right. I mainly want to avoid having a
                                                reader quit before the thing even starts.

                                                Of course, I'd appreciate any other kinds of comments, too!

                                                Best,
                                                George



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                                              • George Hartley
                                                Thanks for pointing out the Mozilla problem, Elijah. I had forgotten to script that section for the DOM. It works on my Mac Mozilla now.Best, George
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Aug 6, 2001
                                                  Thanks for pointing out the Mozilla problem, Elijah. I had forgotten to
                                                  script that section for the DOM. It works on my Mac Mozilla now.

                                                  Best,
                                                  George



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                                                • Robert Kendall
                                                  George, when I go to the url I just get a blank page with no sign of anything loading. Im using IE 5.5 on Windows. Hitting refresh doesn t help. --rob ...
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Aug 6, 2001
                                                    George, when I go to the url I just get a blank page with no sign
                                                    of anything loading. Im' using IE 5.5 on Windows. Hitting refresh
                                                    doesn't help.

                                                    --rob


                                                    -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    Robert Kendall
                                                    E-Mail: kendall@...
                                                    Home Page: http://www.wordcircuits.com/kendall
                                                    -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    Word Circuits (Hypertext/Cybertext Poetry and Fiction):
                                                    http://www.wordcircuits.com
                                                    Electronic Literature Directory
                                                    http://directory.eliterature.org
                                                    On-Line Class in Hypertext Poetry and Fiction (The New School):
                                                    http://www.wordcircuits.com/kendall/htclass.htm
                                                    -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  • George Hartley
                                                    Robert, my university server cut me off because I have exceeded my disk quota. I was uploading the corrected script version when I got that message, but it
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Aug 6, 2001
                                                      Robert,
                                                      my university server cut me off because I have exceeded my disk quota. I was
                                                      uploading the corrected script version when I got that message, but it
                                                      erased the original script without loading the new one. It'll be up as soon
                                                      as I get things straightened out. Thanks for trying!

                                                      Best,
                                                      George

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                                                    • Jennifer Ley
                                                      Hi George the piece loads and works fine for me: netscape 4.7 on a Mac G3 Powerbook using OS 9.02 re: those who were getting blank pages ... I ve noticed
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Aug 6, 2001
                                                        Hi George

                                                        the piece loads and works fine for me: netscape 4.7 on a Mac G3 Powerbook
                                                        using OS 9.02

                                                        re: those who were getting blank pages ... I've noticed lately that when I
                                                        use Netscape, I sometimes encounter a blank page at a website. If I open and
                                                        use IE5 ... the page is there. Whatever little bug this is in the world of
                                                        web browser design and designer coding choices ... it seems a potentially
                                                        nasty one.

                                                        I don't have Netscape 6 (in fact Meridian's stats show that only 4% of the
                                                        people who view Meridian use it ... which is rather comforting) ... but I do
                                                        wonder what this means in the long run. Has anyone else encountered it?

                                                        I think the piece works well George ... I especially liked who quickly the
                                                        'final solution' presents itself and wipes everything else off the screen
                                                        once achieved. Underlines perhaps why we had such a 'scare' to begin with.

                                                        Jen
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