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Re: [webanalytics] SEO and Web-Analyics

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  • Mitko Gerensky-Greene
    To me SEO and web analytics are the perfect spouses. One complements the other and vice versa. SEO helps improve the search engine rankings of a web site. Web
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2004
      To me SEO and web analytics are the perfect spouses. One complements the other
      and vice versa. SEO helps improve the search engine rankings of a web site. Web
      analytics helps make sense of the traffic in a cost efficient way. Using one
      without the other means missing on enormous potential for continuous
      improvement.

      When a new client (usually small to medium size businesses) comes to me with
      request for web redesign, I make sure to understand what their web metrics for
      success are -- those inevitably include the desire for increased conversion
      rates from search engine traffic. Taking data from web analytics on the actual
      way people find the web site, and keyword phrase research, I am able to present
      a meaningful, scientific, approach to improving the site. Having built a
      persuasive site, I then market it with the power of search engines. Having
      marketed the site via the top search engines, I analyze its traffic for
      improved conversion rates. And the cycle goes on :-)

      The only field I can see SEO and web analytics not working together is in an
      intranet environment. But then, you can use the same principles for improving
      on the search feature of the site. For as long there are people who will
      attempt to find information by using search -- and with the acceleration of web
      publishing, the demand for search will be growing -- there will be always a need
      to link search engine optimization and web analytics. By the way, that is the
      exact reason (I suspect :-) why NetIQ (WebTrends) bought WebPosition Gold...

      Mitko Gerensky-Greene
      mitko@...
      703-568-7125

      WebSage - http://www.websage.net
      Search engine optimization
      Web analytics · Web marketing
    • Jim Novo
      ... I guess I should have been more specific on what I meant by higher end , I really wasn t referring to budgets or size of company but experience and a
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 8, 2004
        > The goal of
        > these systems and the SEO that supports them is mostly for traffic
        > analysis. I know my experience isn't representative of companies that
        > have internet budgets of $1-5 million a year, but it seems that are a
        > lot of sites and site owners who have similar perspectives on what the
        > purpose of SEO really is and how to use it.

        I guess I should have been more specific on what I meant by "higher end", I
        really wasn't referring to budgets or size of company but experience and a
        desire to really help the client.

        There are some very smart small companies who understand how all this fits
        together and some very large companies with huge budgets that are
        completely clueless and still "silo" all of these areas. This includes (if
        you can believe this) having one agency for organic SEM and another agency
        for paid SEM. These 2 agencies do not want the effectiveness of their
        respective activities compared in any reports. They want two separate
        reports and each side has no interest in learning from the successes and
        failures of the other. In this case, there is also a usability agancy who
        doesn't want to see analytics reports either, they just rely on their
        "labs" to make changes.

        This situation is completely ridiculous, and there is an underlying theme;
        that theme is "we don't want accountability", which (again, believe it or
        not) includes the marketing executive these agencies report to! Jeeze...

        This is also the place inhabited by most of the banner / branding /
        publishing folks, they want no accountability beyond the first click,
        claiming "that's a client problem". This may be true in the absolute, as
        it is for a magazine or newspaper ad. But the best publishers and agencies
        in offline media actually go after accountability, they *want* their ads to
        work for the client, and do their best to measure effectiveness. Why the
        "new media" wants to act like the "old media" in this respect is pretty
        puzzling, given all the chest beating about how online media is so superior
        to offine by these same folks.

        So, what you have is a learning curve, and where you are on that curve
        largely determines whether you "get" that all of these things are parts of
        a whole, they all work together, and there are trade-offs. Where people
        are on this learning curve has nothing to do with size or budget; and it's
        pretty safe to say the majority are on the lower end.

        The best of breed SEO / SEM folks are confident in their skills and are
        **selling** analytics to smart clients, e.g. you want analytics with that?
        They understand that in the longer run, analytics helps them do their job
        better.

        Ultimately this relationship evolves into "teaching" the client about the
        web / their site and grows into something that looks more like a strategic
        consulting engagement than a SEO / SEM gig, where the once lowly SEO
        company is now consulted on "all things web", including campaign strategy
        etc. and in some cases "pushes out" the current lead agency because they
        are upfront, honest, and can prove they know their stuff with analytics.

        This is the interactive agency of the future, I think.

        I've been in the analytics space for more than 20 years, and I've seen this
        movie before. Where you find a lack of analytics you find a desire for
        deflecting accountability, it's really as simple as that.

        Jim
        jim@...
        http://www.jimnovo.com


        >
        > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:46:10 -0400, Jim Novo <jim@...> wrote:
        > > > I have to admit, that I'm no expert though. So I ask everyone
        else...
        > > > How often, during practical use, does the web analytics process
        > > > utilize SEO techniques, if at all?
        > >
        > > All my top billing clients are SEO / SEM (paid and organic) search
        > > agencies, and they all plan on getting into web analytics themselves
        when
        > > they can find the right people. I don't know of any "top tier" SEO /
        SEM
        > > firm that does not use web analytics - how else could you drive
        continuous
        > > improvement? "Best practices" also includes the integration of
        usability
        > > (broadly defined) into the mix. By broadly defined, I mean just
        because an
        > > interface is "usable" does not mean it is "persuasive" / conversion
        > > friendly.
        > >
        > > At least at the higher end, it is no longer sufficient to "drive
        traffic",
        > > you have to prove the value of the traffic segments. This is the same
        > > general concept that drove people from banners / clicks into
        pay-per-click
        > > in the first place, and will eventually lead to people wanting to
        > > understand even longer term concepts like visitor retention.
        > >
        > > "SEO doesn't rely upon web analytics" only when the client does not
        require
        > > accountability from the SEO / SEM initiative. Rarely.
        > >
        > > Jim
        > > jim@...
        > > http://www.jimnovo.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > > ..dale
        > > >
        > > > On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:38:20 -0000, awa1
        <awarnecke@...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi,
        > > > > any opinions re the interaction of SEO and web analytics.
        > > > > To me both play a vital role in making sure, that a web site is
        good
        > > > > business.
        > > > > SEO drives the traffic to the web site and then web analytics
        takes
        > > > > over and makes the most out of those visitors.
        > > > > The better SEO qualifies the users, the easier is the job of the
        web
        > > > > analytics guy and vice versa. Web analytics can feedback, wich
        user
        > > > > segement is the most profitable.
        > > > >
        > > > > So, are SEO and web analytics 2 sides of a coin that ultimatley
        > > > > belong togehter or 2 hostiles brethren?
        > > > >
        > > > > To me, it seems, that at least the guys who do SEO have a quite
        > > > > different character, than the web analytics guys.
        > > > >
        > > > > Do you see SEO and web analytics come together or will they
        remain
        > > > > seperate businesses?
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks for your input
        > > > > Albert
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ---------------------------------------
        > > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > > >
        > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ________________________________
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
        > > > >
        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >
        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------------
        > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >

        > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > -------
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
        > > >
        > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > Service.
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------------
        > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > >
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------------
        > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
      • Mitko Gerensky-Greene
        ... I just quoted NetIQ purchasing WebPosition Gold as an indication of a trend to integrate web analytics and SEM/SEO, however I found it entertaining that
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 8, 2004
          Quoting Jim Novo <jim@...>:

          > There are some very smart small companies who understand how all this fits
          > together and some very large companies with huge budgets that are
          > completely clueless and still "silo" all of these areas.

          I just quoted NetIQ purchasing WebPosition Gold as an indication of a trend to
          integrate web analytics and SEM/SEO, however I found it entertaining that their
          own web tracking parameter from the main WebTrends page uses the term "silo":

          http://www.netiq.com/webtrends/products/wpg/default.asp?origin=ws_silo

          Perhaps I am looking too closely into this :-) Or perhaps we are too close to
          the weekend and I need a break :-)

          Mitko Gerensky-Greene
          mitko@...
          703-568-7125

          WebSage - http://www.websage.net
          Search engine optimization
          Web analytics · Web marketing
        • Dylan Lewis
          Web Analytics and SEO are intertwined, without one the other is almost useless and definitely costly. Driving traffic to your site requires both paid and non
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 8, 2004
            Web Analytics and SEO are intertwined, without one the other is almost
            useless and definitely costly.

            Driving traffic to your site requires both paid and non paid SEO.
            Analyzing what that traffic does on your site requires web analytics.

            Small businesses (should) understand the value of marketing web
            analytics, even if they can't afford the higher end installations like
            Omniture, WSS, et al., Businesses are paying for traffic and they
            need to know if that dollar is well spent. This is why Overture and
            Google both have inexpensive/free basic tracking systems available to
            their advertisers.

            The best SEO people are intricately aware of analytics and for good
            reason. Spending a great deal of time and money on Internet Marketing
            requires accountability done through good analytics.

            How will you ever know if spending $3 per click is worth it if you
            don't know what percentage of clicks result in a sale?

            How will you know if building an extensive tutorial is worth doing if
            you don't know the value of each tutorial to SEO and incoming revenue?

            All Internet marketers should know what is going on with the money
            they are spending, without web analytics this is not possible and most
            likely very very costly.

            Successful Six Sigma Marketing (as Jim as written and spoken about
            extensively) is the key to successful SEO.


            Dylan



            On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:24:45 -0400, Jim Novo <jim@...> wrote:
            > > The goal of
            > > these systems and the SEO that supports them is mostly for traffic
            > > analysis. I know my experience isn't representative of companies that
            > > have internet budgets of $1-5 million a year, but it seems that are a
            > > lot of sites and site owners who have similar perspectives on what the
            > > purpose of SEO really is and how to use it.
            >
            > I guess I should have been more specific on what I meant by "higher end", I
            > really wasn't referring to budgets or size of company but experience and a
            > desire to really help the client.
            >
            > There are some very smart small companies who understand how all this fits
            > together and some very large companies with huge budgets that are
            > completely clueless and still "silo" all of these areas. This includes (if
            > you can believe this) having one agency for organic SEM and another agency
            > for paid SEM. These 2 agencies do not want the effectiveness of their
            > respective activities compared in any reports. They want two separate
            > reports and each side has no interest in learning from the successes and
            > failures of the other. In this case, there is also a usability agancy who
            > doesn't want to see analytics reports either, they just rely on their
            > "labs" to make changes.
            >
            > This situation is completely ridiculous, and there is an underlying theme;
            > that theme is "we don't want accountability", which (again, believe it or
            > not) includes the marketing executive these agencies report to! Jeeze...
            >
            > This is also the place inhabited by most of the banner / branding /
            > publishing folks, they want no accountability beyond the first click,
            > claiming "that's a client problem". This may be true in the absolute, as
            > it is for a magazine or newspaper ad. But the best publishers and agencies
            > in offline media actually go after accountability, they *want* their ads to
            > work for the client, and do their best to measure effectiveness. Why the
            > "new media" wants to act like the "old media" in this respect is pretty
            > puzzling, given all the chest beating about how online media is so superior
            > to offine by these same folks.
            >
            > So, what you have is a learning curve, and where you are on that curve
            > largely determines whether you "get" that all of these things are parts of
            > a whole, they all work together, and there are trade-offs. Where people
            > are on this learning curve has nothing to do with size or budget; and it's
            > pretty safe to say the majority are on the lower end.
            >
            > The best of breed SEO / SEM folks are confident in their skills and are
            > **selling** analytics to smart clients, e.g. you want analytics with that?
            > They understand that in the longer run, analytics helps them do their job
            > better.
            >
            > Ultimately this relationship evolves into "teaching" the client about the
            > web / their site and grows into something that looks more like a strategic
            > consulting engagement than a SEO / SEM gig, where the once lowly SEO
            > company is now consulted on "all things web", including campaign strategy
            > etc. and in some cases "pushes out" the current lead agency because they
            > are upfront, honest, and can prove they know their stuff with analytics.
            >
            > This is the interactive agency of the future, I think.
            >
            > I've been in the analytics space for more than 20 years, and I've seen this
            > movie before. Where you find a lack of analytics you find a desire for
            > deflecting accountability, it's really as simple as that.
            >
            > Jim
            > jim@...
            > http://www.jimnovo.com
            >
            >
            > >
            > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:46:10 -0400, Jim Novo <jim@...> wrote:
            > > > > I have to admit, that I'm no expert though. So I ask everyone
            > else...
            > > > > How often, during practical use, does the web analytics process
            > > > > utilize SEO techniques, if at all?
            > > >
            > > > All my top billing clients are SEO / SEM (paid and organic) search
            > > > agencies, and they all plan on getting into web analytics themselves
            > when
            > > > they can find the right people. I don't know of any "top tier" SEO /
            > SEM
            > > > firm that does not use web analytics - how else could you drive
            > continuous
            > > > improvement? "Best practices" also includes the integration of
            > usability
            > > > (broadly defined) into the mix. By broadly defined, I mean just
            > because an
            > > > interface is "usable" does not mean it is "persuasive" / conversion
            > > > friendly.
            > > >
            > > > At least at the higher end, it is no longer sufficient to "drive
            > traffic",
            > > > you have to prove the value of the traffic segments. This is the same
            > > > general concept that drove people from banners / clicks into
            > pay-per-click
            > > > in the first place, and will eventually lead to people wanting to
            > > > understand even longer term concepts like visitor retention.
            > > >
            > > > "SEO doesn't rely upon web analytics" only when the client does not
            > require
            > > > accountability from the SEO / SEM initiative. Rarely.
            > > >
            > > > Jim
            > > > jim@...
            > > > http://www.jimnovo.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ..dale
            > > > >
            > > > > On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:38:20 -0000, awa1
            > <awarnecke@...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi,
            > > > > > any opinions re the interaction of SEO and web analytics.
            > > > > > To me both play a vital role in making sure, that a web site is
            > good
            > > > > > business.
            > > > > > SEO drives the traffic to the web site and then web analytics
            > takes
            > > > > > over and makes the most out of those visitors.
            > > > > > The better SEO qualifies the users, the easier is the job of the
            > web
            > > > > > analytics guy and vice versa. Web analytics can feedback, wich
            > user
            > > > > > segement is the most profitable.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > So, are SEO and web analytics 2 sides of a coin that ultimatley
            > > > > > belong togehter or 2 hostiles brethren?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To me, it seems, that at least the guys who do SEO have a quite
            > > > > > different character, than the web analytics guys.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Do you see SEO and web analytics come together or will they
            > remain
            > > > > > seperate businesses?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks for your input
            > > > > > Albert
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ---------------------------------------
            > > > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
            > > > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
            > > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
            > > > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > ________________________________
            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ---------------------------------------
            > > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
            > > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
            > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
            > > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            >
            > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > -------
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > >
            > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
            > > > >
            > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >
            > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > > > Service.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------------
            > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
            > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
            > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
            > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > >
            > > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ________________________________
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------------
            > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
            > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
            > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
            > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > ADVERTISEMENT
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > -------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
            > >
            > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------------
            > Web Metrics Discussion Group
            > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
            > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
            > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • xen_jones
            Hi all, Here are my two cents. It s a very interesting topic. I began into the web arena as SEO. 7 years ago when the internet was in its infancy it was all
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 15, 2004
              Hi all,

              Here are my two cents. It's a very interesting topic. I began into
              the web arena as SEO. 7 years ago when the internet was in its
              infancy it was all about meta-tags.

              As this new media has been evolving new ideas had made e-commerce
              stronger. I work as webmaster/marketing person for a small e-retail
              company. The first thing I ask when I came here is where is your
              stats info. I believe that web analytics should be the guide for the
              path that SEO and Usability follows.

              Even the small guys like us. We use pagge tagging solution and all
              our new resdesing is based in many info that we got through the web
              stats analysis.

              We have detected that for example "blood pressure machine" keyword
              converts more sales than "blood pressure monitor". We also found that
              it has been less time consuming to be within the top ten organic
              results in SE for "blood pressure machine" than the more common
              keyword "blood pressure monitor". But we haven't give up for the
              blood pressure monitor keyword, we pay Google Adwords for example but
              keeping and eye on our ROI for it and for that we also use our web
              analytics.

              As fas as web usability, I think the SEO have to focus less on doing
              the websites SE Friendly and be more balanced and design with a User
              Friendly methality. After all the SE are not going to buy your
              products/services :-)

              To me a SEO should be a person who can blend the knowledge web
              analytics gives with usability. A SEO has evolved into a "one stop"
              emarketing consultant. After all driving traffic to a website is a
              small portion of the game, you have to convert and retent clients.

              You don't need a big budget to growth. You need to research which
              vendors to choose for Stats for example and then as always use common
              sense to analysed the data.

              Have a great weekend!





              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Lewis <dylan.lewis@g...>
              wrote:
              > Web Analytics and SEO are intertwined, without one the other is
              almost
              > useless and definitely costly.
              >
              > Driving traffic to your site requires both paid and non paid SEO.
              > Analyzing what that traffic does on your site requires web
              analytics.
              >
              > Small businesses (should) understand the value of marketing web
              > analytics, even if they can't afford the higher end installations
              like
              > Omniture, WSS, et al., Businesses are paying for traffic and they
              > need to know if that dollar is well spent. This is why Overture and
              > Google both have inexpensive/free basic tracking systems available
              to
              > their advertisers.
              >
              > The best SEO people are intricately aware of analytics and for good
              > reason. Spending a great deal of time and money on Internet
              Marketing
              > requires accountability done through good analytics.
              >
              > How will you ever know if spending $3 per click is worth it if you
              > don't know what percentage of clicks result in a sale?
              >
              > How will you know if building an extensive tutorial is worth doing
              if
              > you don't know the value of each tutorial to SEO and incoming
              revenue?
              >
              > All Internet marketers should know what is going on with the money
              > they are spending, without web analytics this is not possible and
              most
              > likely very very costly.
              >
              > Successful Six Sigma Marketing (as Jim as written and spoken about
              > extensively) is the key to successful SEO.
              >
              >
              > Dylan
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:24:45 -0400, Jim Novo <jim@j...> wrote:
              > > > The goal of
              > > > these systems and the SEO that supports them is mostly for
              traffic
              > > > analysis. I know my experience isn't representative of
              companies that
              > > > have internet budgets of $1-5 million a year, but it seems that
              are a
              > > > lot of sites and site owners who have similar perspectives on
              what the
              > > > purpose of SEO really is and how to use it.
              > >
              > > I guess I should have been more specific on what I meant
              by "higher end", I
              > > really wasn't referring to budgets or size of company but
              experience and a
              > > desire to really help the client.
              > >
              > > There are some very smart small companies who understand how all
              this fits
              > > together and some very large companies with huge budgets that are
              > > completely clueless and still "silo" all of these areas. This
              includes (if
              > > you can believe this) having one agency for organic SEM and
              another agency
              > > for paid SEM. These 2 agencies do not want the effectiveness of
              their
              > > respective activities compared in any reports. They want two
              separate
              > > reports and each side has no interest in learning from the
              successes and
              > > failures of the other. In this case, there is also a usability
              agancy who
              > > doesn't want to see analytics reports either, they just rely on
              their
              > > "labs" to make changes.
              > >
              > > This situation is completely ridiculous, and there is an
              underlying theme;
              > > that theme is "we don't want accountability", which (again,
              believe it or
              > > not) includes the marketing executive these agencies report to!
              Jeeze...
              > >
              > > This is also the place inhabited by most of the banner /
              branding /
              > > publishing folks, they want no accountability beyond the first
              click,
              > > claiming "that's a client problem". This may be true in the
              absolute, as
              > > it is for a magazine or newspaper ad. But the best publishers
              and agencies
              > > in offline media actually go after accountability, they *want*
              their ads to
              > > work for the client, and do their best to measure effectiveness.
              Why the
              > > "new media" wants to act like the "old media" in this respect is
              pretty
              > > puzzling, given all the chest beating about how online media is
              so superior
              > > to offine by these same folks.
              > >
              > > So, what you have is a learning curve, and where you are on that
              curve
              > > largely determines whether you "get" that all of these things are
              parts of
              > > a whole, they all work together, and there are trade-offs. Where
              people
              > > are on this learning curve has nothing to do with size or budget;
              and it's
              > > pretty safe to say the majority are on the lower end.
              > >
              > > The best of breed SEO / SEM folks are confident in their skills
              and are
              > > **selling** analytics to smart clients, e.g. you want analytics
              with that?
              > > They understand that in the longer run, analytics helps them do
              their job
              > > better.
              > >
              > > Ultimately this relationship evolves into "teaching" the client
              about the
              > > web / their site and grows into something that looks more like a
              strategic
              > > consulting engagement than a SEO / SEM gig, where the once lowly
              SEO
              > > company is now consulted on "all things web", including campaign
              strategy
              > > etc. and in some cases "pushes out" the current lead agency
              because they
              > > are upfront, honest, and can prove they know their stuff with
              analytics.
              > >
              > > This is the interactive agency of the future, I think.
              > >
              > > I've been in the analytics space for more than 20 years, and I've
              seen this
              > > movie before. Where you find a lack of analytics you find a
              desire for
              > > deflecting accountability, it's really as simple as that.
              > >
              > > Jim
              > > jim@j...
              > > http://www.jimnovo.com
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:46:10 -0400, Jim Novo <jim@j...> wrote:
              > > > > > I have to admit, that I'm no expert though. So I ask
              everyone
              > > else...
              > > > > > How often, during practical use, does the web analytics
              process
              > > > > > utilize SEO techniques, if at all?
              > > > >
              > > > > All my top billing clients are SEO / SEM (paid and organic)
              search
              > > > > agencies, and they all plan on getting into web analytics
              themselves
              > > when
              > > > > they can find the right people. I don't know of any "top
              tier" SEO /
              > > SEM
              > > > > firm that does not use web analytics - how else could you
              drive
              > > continuous
              > > > > improvement? "Best practices" also includes the integration
              of
              > > usability
              > > > > (broadly defined) into the mix. By broadly defined, I mean
              just
              > > because an
              > > > > interface is "usable" does not mean it is "persuasive" /
              conversion
              > > > > friendly.
              > > > >
              > > > > At least at the higher end, it is no longer sufficient
              to "drive
              > > traffic",
              > > > > you have to prove the value of the traffic segments. This
              is the same
              > > > > general concept that drove people from banners / clicks into
              > > pay-per-click
              > > > > in the first place, and will eventually lead to people
              wanting to
              > > > > understand even longer term concepts like visitor retention.
              > > > >
              > > > > "SEO doesn't rely upon web analytics" only when the client
              does not
              > > require
              > > > > accountability from the SEO / SEM initiative. Rarely.
              > > > >
              > > > > Jim
              > > > > jim@j...
              > > > > http://www.jimnovo.com
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ..dale
              > > > > >
              > > > > > On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:38:20 -0000, awa1
              > > <awarnecke@w...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi,
              > > > > > > any opinions re the interaction of SEO and web
              analytics.
              > > > > > > To me both play a vital role in making sure, that a web
              site is
              > > good
              > > > > > > business.
              > > > > > > SEO drives the traffic to the web site and then web
              analytics
              > > takes
              > > > > > > over and makes the most out of those visitors.
              > > > > > > The better SEO qualifies the users, the easier is the
              job of the
              > > web
              > > > > > > analytics guy and vice versa. Web analytics can
              feedback, wich
              > > user
              > > > > > > segement is the most profitable.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > So, are SEO and web analytics 2 sides of a coin that
              ultimatley
              > > > > > > belong togehter or 2 hostiles brethren?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > To me, it seems, that at least the guys who do SEO have
              a quite
              > > > > > > different character, than the web analytics guys.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Do you see SEO and web analytics come together or will
              they
              > > remain
              > > > > > > seperate businesses?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Thanks for your input
              > > > > > > Albert
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > ---------------------------------------
              > > > > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
              > > > > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
              > > > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
              > > > > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
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              > > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
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              > > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
              > > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
              > > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
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