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Re: Google crawls FLASH

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  • David Culbertson
    ..I ve seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks. Amen! - Dave Culbertson LightBulb
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 2 5:31 AM
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      "..I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
      html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks."

      Amen!

      - Dave Culbertson
      LightBulb Interactive
      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
      improvement
      > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
      for the
      > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
      > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
      > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
      > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
      > >
      > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
      > > websites, they should still consider:
      > >
      > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
      > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
      > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
      > >
      > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
      > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
      > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
      > >
      > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
      > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
      > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
      > >
      > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
      > > found in footnote [2].
      > >
      > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
      > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
      > >
      > > - Sean Carlos
      > >
      > > --------
      > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
      > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
      > >
      > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
      > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
      > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________
      > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
      > >
      > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
      > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
      > >
      > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
      > > www.antezeta.com/blog
      > >
      > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
      FLASH.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Hailong Xia
      Hi, Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a headache : I m sorry but I just can t understand your message due to my poor English;-(
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 2 5:39 AM
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        Hi,

        Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a headache :
        I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor English;-(
        And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?

        After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash only site
        are evident *for SEO*".





        On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:

        > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
        > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
        > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
        >
        > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
        > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
        > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
        > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
        > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
        > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
        > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
        > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
        >
        > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
        > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
        > slings.
        >
        > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
        > improvement
        > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
        > for the
        > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
        > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
        > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
        > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
        > > >
        > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
        > > > websites, they should still consider:
        > > >
        > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
        > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
        > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
        > > >
        > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
        > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
        > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
        > > >
        > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
        > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
        > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
        > > >
        > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
        > > > found in footnote [2].
        > > >
        > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
        > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
        > > >
        > > > - Sean Carlos
        > > >
        > > > --------
        > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
        > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
        > > >
        > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
        > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
        > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________________________
        > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
        > > >
        > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
        > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
        > > >
        > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
        > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
        > > >
        > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
        > 40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
        > FLASH.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • alexbrasil489
        Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term highest paid person s opinion , which
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 2 1:11 PM
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          Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
          you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
          opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
          all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
          right way.

          When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
          was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
          evident to the Hippos I deal with.

          For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
          Hippopotamus animal.

          Hope that clears it up.
          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
          headache :
          > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
          English;-(
          > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
          >
          > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
          only site
          > are evident *for SEO*".
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
          > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
          > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
          > >
          > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
          > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
          > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
          > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
          > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
          > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
          > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
          > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
          > >
          > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
          > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
          > > slings.
          > >
          > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
          > > improvement
          > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
          > > for the
          > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
          > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
          > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
          > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
          > > > >
          > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
          only
          > > > > websites, they should still consider:
          > > > >
          > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
          various
          > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
          process.
          > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
          > > > >
          > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
          different
          > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
          > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
          > > > >
          > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
          has to
          > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
          then load
          > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
          > > > >
          > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
          can be
          > > > > found in footnote [2].
          > > > >
          > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
          > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
          > > > >
          > > > > - Sean Carlos
          > > > >
          > > > > --------
          > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
          > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
          > > > >
          > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
          > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
          > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
          > > > >
          > > > > __________________________________________________
          > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
          > > > >
          > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
          > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
          > > > >
          > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
          > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
          <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
          > > FLASH.
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Birger Friedrichs
          Hi Michaël, ... yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a common way. As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 3 12:27 AM
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            Hi Michaël,

            michaelnotte wrote:
            > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
            > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming from
            > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
            >
            > Or am I wrong?

            yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a common
            way.
            As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately and not
            as part of the flash file.

            Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
            stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain HTML
            pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor text...).
            Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is often
            implemented:

            The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded. So
            while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash Google
            will only see one page. It might be better to break down the content
            into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper HTML
            titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages with
            the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better than
            plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links. If you
            fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a better
            ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.

            I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.

            Regards,
            Birger
          • michaelnotte
            Thanks for your feedback. What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player is
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 3 12:58 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for your feedback.

              What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
              automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
              is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
              content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.

              So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...

              Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
              like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
              things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
              in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
              (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).

              Cheers

              Michaël

              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Michaël,
              >
              > michaelnotte wrote:
              > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
              > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
              from
              > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
              > >
              > > Or am I wrong?
              >
              > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
              common
              > way.
              > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
              and not
              > as part of the flash file.
              >
              > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
              > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
              HTML
              > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
              text...).
              > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
              often
              > implemented:
              >
              > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
              So
              > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
              Google
              > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
              content
              > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
              HTML
              > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
              with
              > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
              than
              > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
              If you
              > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
              better
              > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
              >
              > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Birger
              >
            • propfow
              alexbrasil489, Just as an FYI I got your joke and agree with you. Never like to hear well, I do X on the internet either. John O Farrell Senior Interactive
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 3 5:37 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                alexbrasil489,

                Just as an FYI I got your joke and agree with you. Never like to hear
                "well, I do X on the internet" either.

                John O'Farrell
                Senior Interactive Strategist
                Addison


                --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "alexbrasil489" <alexbrasil@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
                > you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
                > opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
                > all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
                > right way.
                >
                > When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
                > was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
                > evident to the Hippos I deal with.
                >
                > For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
                > Hippopotamus animal.
                >
                > Hope that clears it up.
                > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
                > headache :
                > > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
                > English;-(
                > > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
                > >
                > > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
                > only site
                > > are evident *for SEO*".
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood
                friendly
                > > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                > > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                > > >
                > > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                > > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                > > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                > > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                > > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                > > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                > > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                > > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                > > >
                > > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                > > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                > > > slings.
                > > >
                > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                > > > improvement
                > > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                > > > for the
                > > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant
                improvements to
                > > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and
                links,
                > > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted
                information
                > > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                > only
                > > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                > various
                > > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                > process.
                > > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                > different
                > > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                > > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                > > > > >
                > > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                > has to
                > > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
                > then load
                > > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash
                object.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                > can be
                > > > > > found in footnote [2].
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with
                standard
                > > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > - Sean Carlos
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --------
                > > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                > > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                > > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                > > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                > > > > >
                > > > > > __________________________________________________
                > > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                > > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                > > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start
                crawling
                > > > FLASH.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Hailong Xia
                Hi Alex, thanks for your explication of Hippo , honestly I really spent much time to look for its meaning ;-). I m glad to learn another true English word,
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 3 2:47 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Alex, thanks for your explication of "Hippo", honestly I really spent
                  much time to look for its meaning ;-). I'm glad to learn another 'true'
                  English word, hehehe.

                  Continue our discussion about Flash site. Maybe we could use Flash in
                  another way. As we all known, Flash is unfriendly element to SE, then why
                  don't we put the contents that degrade the seo effort on a Flash file? I
                  mean we can use flash to increase the key word density, to reduce the out
                  links, or to simplify the source code of our web page.

                  Just an idea, maybe in some special situations this could help with
                  something.



                  On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
                  > you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
                  > opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
                  > all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
                  > right way.
                  >
                  > When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
                  > was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
                  > evident to the Hippos I deal with.
                  >
                  > For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
                  > Hippopotamus animal.
                  >
                  > Hope that clears it up.
                  > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi,
                  > >
                  > > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
                  > headache :
                  > > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
                  > English;-(
                  > > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
                  > >
                  > > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
                  > only site
                  > > are evident *for SEO*".
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                  > > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                  > > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                  > > >
                  > > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                  > > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                  > > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                  > > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                  > > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                  > > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                  > > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                  > > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                  > > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                  > > > slings.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  >
                  > > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                  > > > improvement
                  > > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                  > > > for the
                  > > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                  > > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                  > > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                  > > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                  > only
                  > > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                  > various
                  > > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                  > process.
                  > > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                  > different
                  > > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                  > > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                  > has to
                  > > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
                  > then load
                  > > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                  > can be
                  > > > > > found in footnote [2].
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                  > > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - Sean Carlos
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --------
                  > > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                  > > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                  > > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                  > > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > __________________________________________________
                  > > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                  > > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                  > > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com<webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                  > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                  > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                  > > > FLASH.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nethab1
                  What I don t get is, even if Google indexes remotely loaded XML/SWF content separately OR as part of the original flash, there s really no way to deep link
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 4 1:26 AM
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                    What I don't get is, even if Google indexes remotely loaded XML/SWF
                    content separately OR as part of the original flash, there's really no
                    way to "deep link" into a specific frame/"page", much less so if that
                    XML/SWF is indexed separately.

                    So what has anyone really gained? Visitors clicking a SERP and NOT
                    finding what Google said was "on the tin"? More bad user experience if
                    you ask me...

                    --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "michaelnotte" <michaelnotte@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks for your feedback.
                    >
                    > What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
                    > automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
                    > is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
                    > content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.
                    >
                    > So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...
                    >
                    > Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
                    > like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
                    > things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
                    > in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
                    > (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Michaël
                    >
                    > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Michaël,
                    > >
                    > > michaelnotte wrote:
                    > > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                    > > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
                    > from
                    > > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                    > > >
                    > > > Or am I wrong?
                    > >
                    > > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
                    > common
                    > > way.
                    > > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                    > and not
                    > > as part of the flash file.
                    > >
                    > > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                    > > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
                    > HTML
                    > > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
                    > text...).
                    > > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
                    > often
                    > > implemented:
                    > >
                    > > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
                    > So
                    > > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
                    > Google
                    > > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
                    > content
                    > > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
                    > HTML
                    > > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
                    > with
                    > > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
                    > than
                    > > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
                    > If you
                    > > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
                    > better
                    > > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
                    > >
                    > > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > > Birger
                    > >
                    >
                  • alexbrasil489
                    I m going to be completely honest. It is rare-- very rare, that I see Flash used in a way that I feel adds meaningful value to a website. It is also, from a
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 5 1:04 AM
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                      I'm going to be completely honest. It is rare-- very rare, that I see
                      Flash used in a way that I feel adds meaningful value to a website.
                      It is also, from a upkeep and rapidly changing/evolving site point of
                      view, an absolute nightmare. I'll confess that this is more of the
                      past pseudo-coder speaking (I don't really build sites anymore but I
                      have), but I have almost always found Flash to be a lot more trouble
                      than it's worth.

                      This is not to say that it CAN'T be useful, just that you have an
                      uphill battle when trying to convince me of its utility in most cases.
                      Often, Flash is used on sites that have no clear goal.

                      For instance, think of any possible reason you would visit a website.
                      Now visit doritos.com. How long did it take you to figure out what
                      you wanted to do? Perhaps you're a lot brighter than I am, but it
                      took me a heck of a long time.

                      Don't get me wrong-- the site is absolutely awesome technically and
                      clearly cost a lot of time, money and resources, and clearly involved
                      some very talented people, but it's made by designers and/or people
                      who did not put the thought into what the site would be used for. As
                      an aside, I showed the site to a senior graphics designer guy/friend
                      of mine, and he started saying how cool and great the site was ;)

                      Recently a company that has been advertised heavily in my area
                      oilchange.com (relating to websites), pushes a lot of flash use which,
                      while they appear to have done very very well for themselves, is
                      entirely different from how I would ever build a website personally.

                      To be glib, flash is flashy, it wins a lot of people over, especially
                      , at least in my mind, those who don't have a very deep understanding
                      of how the web operates and what a website is supposed to be/do. When
                      you really start digging down into what it is your flash provides to
                      the user however, I think you'll find that the vast, vast majority
                      could and more importantly should do without.







                      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "michaelnotte" <michaelnotte@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for your feedback.
                      >
                      > What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
                      > automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
                      > is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
                      > content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.
                      >
                      > So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...
                      >
                      > Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
                      > like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
                      > things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
                      > in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
                      > (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Micha�l
                      >
                      > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Micha�l,
                      > >
                      > > michaelnotte wrote:
                      > > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                      > > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
                      > from
                      > > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                      > > >
                      > > > Or am I wrong?
                      > >
                      > > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
                      > common
                      > > way.
                      > > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                      > and not
                      > > as part of the flash file.
                      > >
                      > > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                      > > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
                      > HTML
                      > > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
                      > text...).
                      > > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
                      > often
                      > > implemented:
                      > >
                      > > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
                      > So
                      > > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
                      > Google
                      > > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
                      > content
                      > > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
                      > HTML
                      > > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
                      > with
                      > > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
                      > than
                      > > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
                      > If you
                      > > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
                      > better
                      > > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
                      > >
                      > > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > > Birger
                      > >
                      >
                    • quibble12345
                      Ok, I have to state the obvious: In this thread we re talking about Flash, a technology that everyone except iPhones, MSN, and sight impaired people can at
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 18 12:15 PM
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                        Ok, I have to state the obvious:

                        In this thread we're talking about Flash, a technology that everyone
                        except iPhones, MSN, and sight impaired people can at least process.
                        You don't have to like it or use it, but at least it's ubiquitous.

                        Your HIPPO is fixated on Silverlight, a non common, me-too technology
                        to essentially replicate Flash.

                        What possible reason could your HIPPO have for running your company's
                        site down a rat hole?

                        --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart Taylor"
                        <stuart.taylor@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > My Hippo has discovered Silverlight.....
                        >
                        > doomed, doomed i tell you...
                        >
                        > Stuart.
                        >
                        > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "alexbrasil489" <alexbrasil@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                        > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                        > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                        > >
                        > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                        > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                        > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                        > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                        > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                        > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                        > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                        > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                        > >
                        > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                        > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                        > > slings.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                        > > improvement
                        > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                        > > for the
                        > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant
                        improvements to
                        > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                        > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                        > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                        only
                        > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                        various
                        > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                        > process.
                        > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                        > different
                        > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                        > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                        > > > >
                        > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                        has to
                        > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then
                        > load
                        > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                        can be
                        > > > > found in footnote [2].
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                        > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > - Sean Carlos
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --------
                        > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                        > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                        > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                        > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                        > > > >
                        > > > > __________________________________________________
                        > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                        > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                        > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                        > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                        > > FLASH.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • quibble12345
                        If you search Google with filetype:swf, you ll see that very few SWF entry titles are anything but code. The ones that make sense seem inadvertent. Does
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 18 12:26 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          If you search Google with "filetype:swf," you'll see that very few
                          SWF entry titles are anything but code. The ones that make sense seem
                          inadvertent.

                          Does anyone know how to adjust/influence the Google entry title and
                          description of the SWF so at least it will make more sense to
                          searchers? The way it is, why would anyone click on it?

                          Andrew

                          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Carlos" <sean@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                          > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                          > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                          > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                          >
                          > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                          > websites, they should still consider:
                          >
                          > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                          > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                          > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                          >
                          > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                          > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                          > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                          >
                          > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                          > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                          > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                          >
                          > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                          > found in footnote [2].
                          >
                          > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                          > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                          >
                          > - Sean Carlos
                          >
                          > --------
                          > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                          > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                          >
                          > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                          > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                          > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                          >
                          > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                          > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                          >
                          > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                          > www.antezeta.com/blog
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
                          > >
                          >
                        • r_angley
                          Thanks for the posts. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and completely agree with it. In my experience, Flash has not provided any additional benefit over
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 20 11:34 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for the posts. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and completely agree with it.

                            In my experience, Flash has not provided any additional benefit over other simpler coding
                            solutions. IMO, much of the reason for the use of Flash is that the cheaper, less expensive
                            coding methods are not mentioned or demonstrated early on in the decision phase.
                            Unfortunately, once committed it is extremely difficult and expensive to switch. Instead,
                            we are stuck maintaining an expensive platform and implementing workarounds to make it
                            visible to search engines.

                            Has anyone determined whether the Flash browser application that was provided to
                            Google will execute the web analytics js tags? Is this something we should discuss with
                            our analytics vendor?

                            Thanks, Rob


                            --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
                            >
                            > http://cpraveen.com/blog/now-flash-websites-can-be-crawled-and-indexed-by-
                            google-and-yahoo-hurray/
                            >
                            > So we can start seeing more traffic from Google and Yahoo to the flash sites on our
                            analytic tools  :)
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            > Praveen Kumar C
                            > Internet Marketing Survival
                            > http://www.cpraveen.com/blog
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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