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Anybody out there working with an Omniture Genesis DFA Implementation?

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  • Andy Fisher
    Hi We have a couple of clients considering implementing Genesis to connect their Omniture and DFA data . Is there anyone on the list who has experience with
    Message 1 of 21 , May 5, 2008
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      Hi

      We have a couple of clients considering implementing Genesis to connect
      their Omniture and DFA data . Is there anyone on the list who has
      experience with this integration and would care to comment on the
      success of these integrations?

      Specifically looking for
      1) Ease of integration
      2) Discrepancies between the results in the Omniture console vs the DART
      console
      3) The reliability of the calls to the DFA server within the Omniture
      javascript
      4) Overall impression of the integration

      Please feel free to reply on or off list.

      Many thanks
      Andy


      Andy Fisher | Analytics Director | Avenue A Razorfish | direct 212
      798 6729



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • scout813
      Hi Andy: I don t have a response to your question, unfortunately. I was perusing the Yahoo WA group for info on the very same topic. Wondering if you got any
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 1, 2008
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        Hi Andy:

        I don't have a response to your question, unfortunately. I was
        perusing the Yahoo WA group for info on the very same topic.

        Wondering if you got any useful responses that you could share? I am
        the Web Analyst for Team One on Lexus.com site. I have tried to sell
        through Genesis to Lexus in the past. We just need to determine value
        relative to cost/benefit.

        And, did you decide to move forward with the integration?

        Thank you in advance for any info you might provide.

        Best regards,
        Cindy Robinson
        Interactive Analyst
        Team One

        --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Fisher" <andy.fisher@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi
        >
        > We have a couple of clients considering implementing Genesis to connect
        > their Omniture and DFA data . Is there anyone on the list who has
        > experience with this integration and would care to comment on the
        > success of these integrations?
        >
        > Specifically looking for
        > 1) Ease of integration
        > 2) Discrepancies between the results in the Omniture console vs the DART
        > console
        > 3) The reliability of the calls to the DFA server within the Omniture
        > javascript
        > 4) Overall impression of the integration
        >
        > Please feel free to reply on or off list.
        >
        > Many thanks
        > Andy
        >
        >
        > Andy Fisher | Analytics Director | Avenue A Razorfish | direct 212
        > 798 6729
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Andy Fisher
        Unfortunately, I was unable to find an example of someone using Genesis with Doubleclick. I talked to folks at Omniture, Doubleclick and within the web
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 1, 2008
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          Unfortunately, I was unable to find an example of someone using Genesis
          with Doubleclick. I talked to folks at Omniture, Doubleclick and within
          the web analytics community. So if there is anyone out there who is
          using it and you'd like to share your thoughts, please give me a shout.



          Andy



          From: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:webanalytics@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of scout813
          Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:00 AM
          To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [webanalytics] Re: Anybody out there working with an Omniture
          Genesis DFA Implementation?



          Hi Andy:

          I don't have a response to your question, unfortunately. I was
          perusing the Yahoo WA group for info on the very same topic.

          Wondering if you got any useful responses that you could share? I am
          the Web Analyst for Team One on Lexus.com site. I have tried to sell
          through Genesis to Lexus in the past. We just need to determine value
          relative to cost/benefit.

          And, did you decide to move forward with the integration?

          Thank you in advance for any info you might provide.

          Best regards,
          Cindy Robinson
          Interactive Analyst
          Team One

          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com> , "Andy Fisher"
          <andy.fisher@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi
          >
          > We have a couple of clients considering implementing Genesis to
          connect
          > their Omniture and DFA data . Is there anyone on the list who has
          > experience with this integration and would care to comment on the
          > success of these integrations?
          >
          > Specifically looking for
          > 1) Ease of integration
          > 2) Discrepancies between the results in the Omniture console vs the
          DART
          > console
          > 3) The reliability of the calls to the DFA server within the Omniture
          > javascript
          > 4) Overall impression of the integration
          >
          > Please feel free to reply on or off list.
          >
          > Many thanks
          > Andy
          >
          >
          > Andy Fisher | Analytics Director | Avenue A Razorfish | direct 212
          > 798 6729
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Praveen kumar
          It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 1, 2008
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            It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.

            http://cpraveen.com/blog/now-flash-websites-can-be-crawled-and-indexed-by-google-and-yahoo-hurray/

            So we can start seeing more traffic from Google and Yahoo to the flash sites on our analytic tools  :)

            Thanks,
            Praveen Kumar C
            Internet Marketing Survival
            http://www.cpraveen.com/blog


             




















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sean Carlos
            Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to their ability to extract information, specifically text and links, from Flash objects. They
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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              Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
              their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
              from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
              from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!

              Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
              websites, they should still consider:

              * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
              html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
              Flash is a poor substitute to html.

              * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
              site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
              linking, detailed web analytics tracking....

              * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
              load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
              the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.

              A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
              found in footnote [2].

              I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
              html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.

              - Sean Carlos

              --------
              [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
              http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851

              [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
              http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
              (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )

              __________________________________________________
              Antezeta Internet Marketing

              Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
              Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it

              Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
              www.antezeta.com/blog


              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
              >
            • Hailong Xia
              The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this improvement is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop; for the welfare
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this improvement
                is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop; for the
                welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.



                On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:

                > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                >
                > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                > websites, they should still consider:
                >
                > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                >
                > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                >
                > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                >
                > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                > found in footnote [2].
                >
                > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                >
                > - Sean Carlos
                >
                > --------
                > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                >
                > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                >
                > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                >
                > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                > www.antezeta.com/blog
                >
                > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • alexbrasil489
                Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the epitome of evil, a
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                  Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                  epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.

                  It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                  World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                  just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                  their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                  browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                  without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                  directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                  no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.

                  I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                  announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                  slings.



                  --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                  improvement
                  > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                  for the
                  > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                  > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                  > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                  > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                  > >
                  > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                  > > websites, they should still consider:
                  > >
                  > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                  > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                  > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                  > >
                  > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                  > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                  > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                  > >
                  > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                  > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                  > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                  > >
                  > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                  > > found in footnote [2].
                  > >
                  > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                  > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                  > >
                  > > - Sean Carlos
                  > >
                  > > --------
                  > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                  > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                  > >
                  > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                  > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                  > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
                  > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                  > >
                  > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                  > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                  > >
                  > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                  > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                  > >
                  > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                  FLASH.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Stuart Taylor
                  My Hippo has discovered Silverlight..... doomed, doomed i tell you... Stuart. ... process. ... different ... load ... ,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                    My Hippo has discovered Silverlight.....

                    doomed, doomed i tell you...

                    Stuart.

                    --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "alexbrasil489" <alexbrasil@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                    > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                    > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                    >
                    > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                    > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                    > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                    > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                    > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                    > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                    > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                    > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                    >
                    > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                    > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                    > slings.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                    > improvement
                    > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                    > for the
                    > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                    > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                    > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                    > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                    > > >
                    > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                    > > > websites, they should still consider:
                    > > >
                    > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                    > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                    process.
                    > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                    > > >
                    > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                    different
                    > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                    > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                    > > >
                    > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                    > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then
                    load
                    > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                    > > >
                    > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                    > > > found in footnote [2].
                    > > >
                    > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                    > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                    > > >
                    > > > - Sean Carlos
                    > > >
                    > > > --------
                    > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                    > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                    > > >
                    > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                    > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                    > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                    > > >
                    > > > __________________________________________________
                    > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                    > > >
                    > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                    > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                    > > >
                    > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                    > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                    <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                    > FLASH.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                  • michaelnotte
                    Very interesting news. However I noticed the following point in your blog Google do not attach content from external resources that are loaded by your Flash
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                      Very interesting news. However I noticed the following point in your
                      blog

                      "Google do not attach content from external resources that are loaded
                      by your Flash files. If your Flash file loads an HTML file, an XML
                      file, another SWF file, etc., Google will separately index that
                      resource, but it will not yet be considered to be part of the content
                      in your Flash file"

                      This will strongly limit the indexing in many cases. It is more and
                      more a common practices to have text content coming from external
                      files (e.g. XML). So in this case, the content is not going to be
                      indexed / linked to the flash.

                      In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                      several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming from
                      XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.

                      Or am I wrong?

                      Michaël

                      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                      FLASH.
                      >
                      > http://cpraveen.com/blog/now-flash-websites-can-be-crawled-and-
                      indexed-by-google-and-yahoo-hurray/
                      >
                      > So we can start seeing more traffic from Google and Yahoo to the
                      flash sites on our analytic tools  :)
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Praveen Kumar C
                      > Internet Marketing Survival
                      > http://www.cpraveen.com/blog
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • David Culbertson
                      ..I ve seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks. Amen! - Dave Culbertson LightBulb
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                        "..I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                        html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks."

                        Amen!

                        - Dave Culbertson
                        LightBulb Interactive
                        --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                        improvement
                        > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                        for the
                        > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                        > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                        > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                        > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                        > >
                        > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                        > > websites, they should still consider:
                        > >
                        > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                        > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                        > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                        > >
                        > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                        > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                        > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                        > >
                        > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                        > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                        > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                        > >
                        > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                        > > found in footnote [2].
                        > >
                        > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                        > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                        > >
                        > > - Sean Carlos
                        > >
                        > > --------
                        > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                        > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                        > >
                        > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                        > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                        > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________________________
                        > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                        > >
                        > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                        > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                        > >
                        > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                        > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                        > >
                        > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                        FLASH.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Hailong Xia
                        Hi, Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a headache : I m sorry but I just can t understand your message due to my poor English;-(
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
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                          Hi,

                          Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a headache :
                          I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor English;-(
                          And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?

                          After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash only site
                          are evident *for SEO*".





                          On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:

                          > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                          > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                          > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                          >
                          > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                          > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                          > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                          > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                          > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                          > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                          > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                          > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                          >
                          > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                          > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                          > slings.
                          >
                          > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                          > improvement
                          > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                          > for the
                          > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                          > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                          > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                          > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                          > > >
                          > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                          > > > websites, they should still consider:
                          > > >
                          > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                          > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                          > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                          > > >
                          > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                          > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                          > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                          > > >
                          > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                          > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                          > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                          > > >
                          > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                          > > > found in footnote [2].
                          > > >
                          > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                          > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                          > > >
                          > > > - Sean Carlos
                          > > >
                          > > > --------
                          > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                          > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                          > > >
                          > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                          > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                          > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                          > > >
                          > > > __________________________________________________
                          > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                          > > >
                          > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                          > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                          > > >
                          > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                          > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                          > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                          > FLASH.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • alexbrasil489
                          Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term highest paid person s opinion , which
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
                            you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
                            opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
                            all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
                            right way.

                            When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
                            was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
                            evident to the Hippos I deal with.

                            For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
                            Hippopotamus animal.

                            Hope that clears it up.
                            --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
                            headache :
                            > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
                            English;-(
                            > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
                            >
                            > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
                            only site
                            > are evident *for SEO*".
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                            > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                            > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                            > >
                            > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                            > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                            > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                            > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                            > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                            > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                            > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                            > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                            > >
                            > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                            > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                            > > slings.
                            > >
                            > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                            > > improvement
                            > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                            > > for the
                            > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                            > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                            > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                            > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                            only
                            > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                            various
                            > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                            process.
                            > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                            different
                            > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                            > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                            > > > >
                            > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                            has to
                            > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
                            then load
                            > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                            can be
                            > > > > found in footnote [2].
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                            > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > - Sean Carlos
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --------
                            > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                            > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                            > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                            > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                            > > > >
                            > > > > __________________________________________________
                            > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                            > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                            > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                            <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                            > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                            > > FLASH.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Birger Friedrichs
                            Hi Michaël, ... yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a common way. As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 3, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Michaël,

                              michaelnotte wrote:
                              > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                              > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming from
                              > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                              >
                              > Or am I wrong?

                              yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a common
                              way.
                              As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately and not
                              as part of the flash file.

                              Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                              stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain HTML
                              pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor text...).
                              Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is often
                              implemented:

                              The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded. So
                              while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash Google
                              will only see one page. It might be better to break down the content
                              into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper HTML
                              titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages with
                              the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better than
                              plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links. If you
                              fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a better
                              ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.

                              I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.

                              Regards,
                              Birger
                            • michaelnotte
                              Thanks for your feedback. What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player is
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 3, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks for your feedback.

                                What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
                                automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
                                is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
                                content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.

                                So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...

                                Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
                                like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
                                things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
                                in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
                                (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).

                                Cheers

                                Michaël

                                --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Michaël,
                                >
                                > michaelnotte wrote:
                                > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                                > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
                                from
                                > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                                > >
                                > > Or am I wrong?
                                >
                                > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
                                common
                                > way.
                                > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                                and not
                                > as part of the flash file.
                                >
                                > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                                > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
                                HTML
                                > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
                                text...).
                                > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
                                often
                                > implemented:
                                >
                                > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
                                So
                                > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
                                Google
                                > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
                                content
                                > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
                                HTML
                                > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
                                with
                                > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
                                than
                                > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
                                If you
                                > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
                                better
                                > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
                                >
                                > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Birger
                                >
                              • propfow
                                alexbrasil489, Just as an FYI I got your joke and agree with you. Never like to hear well, I do X on the internet either. John O Farrell Senior Interactive
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 3, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  alexbrasil489,

                                  Just as an FYI I got your joke and agree with you. Never like to hear
                                  "well, I do X on the internet" either.

                                  John O'Farrell
                                  Senior Interactive Strategist
                                  Addison


                                  --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "alexbrasil489" <alexbrasil@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
                                  > you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
                                  > opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
                                  > all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
                                  > right way.
                                  >
                                  > When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
                                  > was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
                                  > evident to the Hippos I deal with.
                                  >
                                  > For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
                                  > Hippopotamus animal.
                                  >
                                  > Hope that clears it up.
                                  > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi,
                                  > >
                                  > > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
                                  > headache :
                                  > > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
                                  > English;-(
                                  > > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
                                  > >
                                  > > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
                                  > only site
                                  > > are evident *for SEO*".
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood
                                  friendly
                                  > > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                                  > > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                                  > > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                                  > > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                                  > > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                                  > > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                                  > > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                                  > > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                                  > > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                                  > > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                                  > > > slings.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                  <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                  > > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                                  > > > improvement
                                  > > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                                  > > > for the
                                  > > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant
                                  improvements to
                                  > > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and
                                  links,
                                  > > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted
                                  information
                                  > > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                                  > only
                                  > > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                                  > various
                                  > > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                                  > process.
                                  > > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                                  > different
                                  > > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                                  > > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                                  > has to
                                  > > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
                                  > then load
                                  > > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash
                                  object.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                                  > can be
                                  > > > > > found in footnote [2].
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with
                                  standard
                                  > > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > - Sean Carlos
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --------
                                  > > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                                  > > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                                  > > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                                  > > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > __________________________________________________
                                  > > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                                  > > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                                  > > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                                  > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                  > > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                                  > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start
                                  crawling
                                  > > > FLASH.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Hailong Xia
                                  Hi Alex, thanks for your explication of Hippo , honestly I really spent much time to look for its meaning ;-). I m glad to learn another true English word,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 3, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Alex, thanks for your explication of "Hippo", honestly I really spent
                                    much time to look for its meaning ;-). I'm glad to learn another 'true'
                                    English word, hehehe.

                                    Continue our discussion about Flash site. Maybe we could use Flash in
                                    another way. As we all known, Flash is unfriendly element to SE, then why
                                    don't we put the contents that degrade the seo effort on a Flash file? I
                                    mean we can use flash to increase the key word density, to reduce the out
                                    links, or to simplify the source code of our web page.

                                    Just an idea, maybe in some special situations this could help with
                                    something.



                                    On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Hailong, I apologize-- I was not laughing at you at all and everything
                                    > you said was right. By Hippo, I mean the term "highest paid person's
                                    > opinion", which means that instead of using data and analysis, as we
                                    > all do here, an individual who does not get it will simply state the
                                    > right way.
                                    >
                                    > When you said an all flash site was evidently flawed in some way, I
                                    > was laughing because, while it is evident to you and I, it is not so
                                    > evident to the Hippos I deal with.
                                    >
                                    > For reference, Hippo is a play on words, as it also refers to the
                                    > Hippopotamus animal.
                                    >
                                    > Hope that clears it up.
                                    > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi,
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe I would say something that make you laugh before getting a
                                    > headache :
                                    > > I'm sorry but I just can't understand your message due to my poor
                                    > English;-(
                                    > > And Hippos, you are talking about the CMS?
                                    > >
                                    > > After all, I want to complete my phrase with "The limits of Flash
                                    > only site
                                    > > are evident *for SEO*".
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 1:11 PM, alexbrasil489 <alexbrasil@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                                    > > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                                    > > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                                    > > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                                    > > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                                    > > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                                    > > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                                    > > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                                    > > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                                    > > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                                    > > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                                    > > > slings.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                                    > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    >
                                    > > > "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                                    > > > improvement
                                    > > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                                    > > > for the
                                    > > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                                    > > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                                    > > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                                    > > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                                    > only
                                    > > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                                    > various
                                    > > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                                    > process.
                                    > > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                                    > different
                                    > > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                                    > > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                                    > has to
                                    > > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed),
                                    > then load
                                    > > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                                    > can be
                                    > > > > > found in footnote [2].
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                                    > > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > - Sean Carlos
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --------
                                    > > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                                    > > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                                    > > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                                    > > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > __________________________________________________
                                    > > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                                    > > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                                    > > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com<webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com><webanalytics%
                                    > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                                    > > > FLASH.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • nethab1
                                    What I don t get is, even if Google indexes remotely loaded XML/SWF content separately OR as part of the original flash, there s really no way to deep link
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                      What I don't get is, even if Google indexes remotely loaded XML/SWF
                                      content separately OR as part of the original flash, there's really no
                                      way to "deep link" into a specific frame/"page", much less so if that
                                      XML/SWF is indexed separately.

                                      So what has anyone really gained? Visitors clicking a SERP and NOT
                                      finding what Google said was "on the tin"? More bad user experience if
                                      you ask me...

                                      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "michaelnotte" <michaelnotte@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your feedback.
                                      >
                                      > What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
                                      > automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
                                      > is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
                                      > content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.
                                      >
                                      > So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...
                                      >
                                      > Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
                                      > like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
                                      > things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
                                      > in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
                                      > (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      >
                                      > Michaël
                                      >
                                      > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Michaël,
                                      > >
                                      > > michaelnotte wrote:
                                      > > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                                      > > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
                                      > from
                                      > > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Or am I wrong?
                                      > >
                                      > > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
                                      > common
                                      > > way.
                                      > > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                                      > and not
                                      > > as part of the flash file.
                                      > >
                                      > > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                                      > > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
                                      > HTML
                                      > > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
                                      > text...).
                                      > > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
                                      > often
                                      > > implemented:
                                      > >
                                      > > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
                                      > So
                                      > > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
                                      > Google
                                      > > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
                                      > content
                                      > > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
                                      > HTML
                                      > > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
                                      > with
                                      > > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
                                      > than
                                      > > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
                                      > If you
                                      > > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
                                      > better
                                      > > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
                                      > >
                                      > > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards,
                                      > > Birger
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • alexbrasil489
                                      I m going to be completely honest. It is rare-- very rare, that I see Flash used in a way that I feel adds meaningful value to a website. It is also, from a
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 5, 2008
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                                        I'm going to be completely honest. It is rare-- very rare, that I see
                                        Flash used in a way that I feel adds meaningful value to a website.
                                        It is also, from a upkeep and rapidly changing/evolving site point of
                                        view, an absolute nightmare. I'll confess that this is more of the
                                        past pseudo-coder speaking (I don't really build sites anymore but I
                                        have), but I have almost always found Flash to be a lot more trouble
                                        than it's worth.

                                        This is not to say that it CAN'T be useful, just that you have an
                                        uphill battle when trying to convince me of its utility in most cases.
                                        Often, Flash is used on sites that have no clear goal.

                                        For instance, think of any possible reason you would visit a website.
                                        Now visit doritos.com. How long did it take you to figure out what
                                        you wanted to do? Perhaps you're a lot brighter than I am, but it
                                        took me a heck of a long time.

                                        Don't get me wrong-- the site is absolutely awesome technically and
                                        clearly cost a lot of time, money and resources, and clearly involved
                                        some very talented people, but it's made by designers and/or people
                                        who did not put the thought into what the site would be used for. As
                                        an aside, I showed the site to a senior graphics designer guy/friend
                                        of mine, and he started saying how cool and great the site was ;)

                                        Recently a company that has been advertised heavily in my area
                                        oilchange.com (relating to websites), pushes a lot of flash use which,
                                        while they appear to have done very very well for themselves, is
                                        entirely different from how I would ever build a website personally.

                                        To be glib, flash is flashy, it wins a lot of people over, especially
                                        , at least in my mind, those who don't have a very deep understanding
                                        of how the web operates and what a website is supposed to be/do. When
                                        you really start digging down into what it is your flash provides to
                                        the user however, I think you'll find that the vast, vast majority
                                        could and more importantly should do without.







                                        --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "michaelnotte" <michaelnotte@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for your feedback.
                                        >
                                        > What we do is that all important / main content from Flash is
                                        > automatically added in the HTML page but not visible if Flash player
                                        > is available (NO FLASH Script part). So Search engines still see the
                                        > content and refer to the page using <TITLE>, <DESCRIPTION> tags.
                                        >
                                        > So we didn't wait for SE to index flash content...
                                        >
                                        > Concerning the usage of Flash, we avoid building FULL flash sites
                                        > like http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and agree that you can do a lot of
                                        > things with HTML / CSS but we use a lot of Flash content integrated
                                        > in our sites. So Flash is more considered as an asset of our sites
                                        > (like images, videos, text, pdf's,...).
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        >
                                        > Micha�l
                                        >
                                        > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Birger Friedrichs <bf@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Micha�l,
                                        > >
                                        > > michaelnotte wrote:
                                        > > > In our case, for example a Flash microsite is often translated in
                                        > > > several languages. It is ONE Flash site but fed with text coming
                                        > from
                                        > > > XML files containing local translations. So won't get indexed.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Or am I wrong?
                                        > >
                                        > > yes, using XML to generate multilingual flash presentations is a
                                        > common
                                        > > way.
                                        > > As stated by Google the content will be indexed *but* separately
                                        > and not
                                        > > as part of the flash file.
                                        > >
                                        > > Indexing is one question, the other one is: How well will the flash
                                        > > stuff rank on the SERPs? I don't think that it will beat the plain
                                        > HTML
                                        > > pages with all the different HTML tags (b, strong, hx, anchor
                                        > text...).
                                        > > Another problem with flash or not with flash itself but how it is
                                        > often
                                        > > implemented:
                                        > >
                                        > > The site contains only *one* page with one flash object embedded.
                                        > So
                                        > > while showing a lot of information on that page through the flash
                                        > Google
                                        > > will only see one page. It might be better to break down the
                                        > content
                                        > > into different topics and create several HTML pages with proper
                                        > HTML
                                        > > titles for each topic. Then Google can index the different pages
                                        > with
                                        > > the flash content separately. But I doubt that it will rank better
                                        > than
                                        > > plain HTML pages. Of course it also depends on the inbound links.
                                        > If you
                                        > > fire Thousands of relevant links to a flash page it can have a
                                        > better
                                        > > ranking than a HTML version with less inbound links.
                                        > >
                                        > > I would currently not "hide" important content in flash. My 2 cents.
                                        > >
                                        > > Regards,
                                        > > Birger
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • quibble12345
                                        Ok, I have to state the obvious: In this thread we re talking about Flash, a technology that everyone except iPhones, MSN, and sight impaired people can at
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 18, 2008
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                                          Ok, I have to state the obvious:

                                          In this thread we're talking about Flash, a technology that everyone
                                          except iPhones, MSN, and sight impaired people can at least process.
                                          You don't have to like it or use it, but at least it's ubiquitous.

                                          Your HIPPO is fixated on Silverlight, a non common, me-too technology
                                          to essentially replicate Flash.

                                          What possible reason could your HIPPO have for running your company's
                                          site down a rat hole?

                                          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart Taylor"
                                          <stuart.taylor@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > My Hippo has discovered Silverlight.....
                                          >
                                          > doomed, doomed i tell you...
                                          >
                                          > Stuart.
                                          >
                                          > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "alexbrasil489" <alexbrasil@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Evident you say? You sir, have not battled the neighborhood friendly
                                          > > Hippos enough, and for that, feel blessed. For me, Flash is the
                                          > > epitome of evil, a blight on this land that needs to be eradicated.
                                          > >
                                          > > It feeds the Hippos, it nurtures them and allows them to wander the
                                          > > World Wide Jungle with impunity, biding their time beneath the water
                                          > > just waiting to strike well reasoned arguments and data down with
                                          > > their language, Hippospeak. Blood curdling phrases such as "when I
                                          > > browse the web I do X", and "people don't want X, they want Y",
                                          > > without consulting anything to form their opinion or, even, better,
                                          > > directly contradicting it are fed by the religion of Flash, and make
                                          > > no mistake, this is a religion of evil doers.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have done battle with these Hippos, and struggled as it is. This
                                          > > announcement is like giving Goliath a device that happens to counter
                                          > > slings.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Hailong Xia" <hailong.xia@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The limits of Flash only site are evident. The benefit of this
                                          > > improvement
                                          > > > is, for the SEOer, another source of traffic and another workshop;
                                          > > for the
                                          > > > welfare of Internet, more resources would be easily accessible.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Sean Carlos <sean@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > Actually what Google has announced is significant
                                          improvements to
                                          > > > > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                                          > > > > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                                          > > > > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash
                                          only
                                          > > > > websites, they should still consider:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness
                                          various
                                          > > > > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking
                                          > process.
                                          > > > > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for
                                          > different
                                          > > > > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                                          > > > > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser
                                          has to
                                          > > > > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then
                                          > load
                                          > > > > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash
                                          can be
                                          > > > > found in footnote [2].
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                                          > > > > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > - Sean Carlos
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --------
                                          > > > > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                                          > > > > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                                          > > > > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                                          > > > > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > __________________________________________________
                                          > > > > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                                          > > > > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                                          > > > > www.antezeta.com/blog
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <webanalytics%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > > > > Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                                          > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling
                                          > > FLASH.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • quibble12345
                                          If you search Google with filetype:swf, you ll see that very few SWF entry titles are anything but code. The ones that make sense seem inadvertent. Does
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 18, 2008
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                                            If you search Google with "filetype:swf," you'll see that very few
                                            SWF entry titles are anything but code. The ones that make sense seem
                                            inadvertent.

                                            Does anyone know how to adjust/influence the Google entry title and
                                            description of the SWF so at least it will make more sense to
                                            searchers? The way it is, why would anyone click on it?

                                            Andrew

                                            --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Carlos" <sean@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Actually what Google has announced is significant improvements to
                                            > their ability to extract information, specifically text and links,
                                            > from Flash objects. They already crawled and extracted information
                                            > from Flash only sites - this is nothing new (Ref [1])!
                                            >
                                            > Before site architects and designers rush off to develop Flash only
                                            > websites, they should still consider:
                                            >
                                            > * Flash only websites are missing the full semantic richness various
                                            > html tags provide Search Engines for the indexing and ranking process.
                                            > Flash is a poor substitute to html.
                                            >
                                            > * Flash only websites don't usually provide unique URLs for different
                                            > site "pages", necessary for bookmarking, sharing links, inbound
                                            > linking, detailed web analytics tracking....
                                            >
                                            > * Flash sites are almost always slower to load - the browser has to
                                            > load the flash player (or worse, ask that it be installed), then load
                                            > the entire site or section of site contained in the flash object.
                                            >
                                            > A more detailed description of the problems inherent in Flash can be
                                            > found in footnote [2].
                                            >
                                            > I've seen designers worth their salt perform wonders with standard
                                            > html and css. Flash, except in rare cases, no thanks.
                                            >
                                            > - Sean Carlos
                                            >
                                            > --------
                                            > [1] Optimizing Flash for Search Engines
                                            > http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2161851
                                            >
                                            > [2] 7 Top Problems using Flash in Website Development
                                            > http://www.antezeta.com/flash-problems.html
                                            > (also in Italian: http://www.antezeta.it/problemi-flash.html )
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________
                                            > Antezeta Internet Marketing
                                            >
                                            > Tel: +39 02 69 000 333 Eng: www.antezeta.com
                                            > Skype: sean-carlos Ita: www.antezeta.it
                                            >
                                            > Blog: www.antezeta.it/blog
                                            > www.antezeta.com/blog
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • r_angley
                                            Thanks for the posts. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and completely agree with it. In my experience, Flash has not provided any additional benefit over
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 20, 2008
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                                              Thanks for the posts. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and completely agree with it.

                                              In my experience, Flash has not provided any additional benefit over other simpler coding
                                              solutions. IMO, much of the reason for the use of Flash is that the cheaper, less expensive
                                              coding methods are not mentioned or demonstrated early on in the decision phase.
                                              Unfortunately, once committed it is extremely difficult and expensive to switch. Instead,
                                              we are stuck maintaining an expensive platform and implementing workarounds to make it
                                              visible to search engines.

                                              Has anyone determined whether the Flash browser application that was provided to
                                              Google will execute the web analytics js tags? Is this something we should discuss with
                                              our analytics vendor?

                                              Thanks, Rob


                                              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Praveen kumar <praveen_vee@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > It has been announced that Google and Yahoo will start crawling FLASH.
                                              >
                                              > http://cpraveen.com/blog/now-flash-websites-can-be-crawled-and-indexed-by-
                                              google-and-yahoo-hurray/
                                              >
                                              > So we can start seeing more traffic from Google and Yahoo to the flash sites on our
                                              analytic tools  :)
                                              >
                                              > Thanks,
                                              > Praveen Kumar C
                                              > Internet Marketing Survival
                                              > http://www.cpraveen.com/blog
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
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                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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