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Selecting Webanalytics

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  • like_anyone
    Dear Eric, and hello all Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
      Dear Eric, and hello all

      Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
      question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
      in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
      hear of everyone what their experience is.

      Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX). The
      latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
      buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
      and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
      of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
      organisation.

      But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
      all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
      Indicators for your website, and which are these? And last, but not
      least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
      less.

      I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
      are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
      again, my situation).

      Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
      around the world to 'read' web analytics reports. Please share!
      Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

      Kind regards,
      Natalie Huijsman
      Business Development Assistant
      ABN AMRO Trust: Your Service Provider of Choice
    • John Hodson
      We have been using HBX from WebSideStory for over 4 years and I can say that we use the majority of available metrics at one time or another. Obviously you d
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
        We have been using HBX from WebSideStory for over 4 years and I can say that we use the majority of available metrics at one time or another.  Obviously you'd daily or weekly focus will be on your KPIs but with HBX you have a lot of extreamly valuable data available.  Once you know your sales conversions numbers, then you need to know how to improve them and that is where the real value comes in.

        Good luck!
        John Hodson
        Project Manager

        like_anyone <like_anyone@...> wrote:
        Dear Eric, and hello all

        Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
        question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
        in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
        hear of everyone what their experience is.

        Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX). The
        latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
        buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
        and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
        of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
        organisation.

        But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
        all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
        Indicators for your website, and which are these? And last, but not
        least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
        less.

        I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
        are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
        again, my situation).

        Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
        around the world to 'read' web analytics reports. Please share!
        Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

        Kind regards,
        Natalie Huijsman
        Business Development Assistant
        ABN AMRO Trust: Your Service Provider of Choice





        ---------------------------------------
        Web Metrics Discussion Group
        Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com





        John Hodson

        "If everything is coming your way then you're in the wrong lane."
      • Terry Lund
        ... If you contact me directly, off of the Yahoo group , I will send you a copy of a presentation I gave at the Emetrics Summit in Santa
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
          At 05:33 AM 6/28/2004, Natalie Huijsman wrote:
          Thank you for your contributions of the discussion list. The first
          question is one that is wondering along my mind for a while now. I am
          in the process of selecting a vendor for web analytics and love to
          hear of everyone what their experience is.

          If you contact me directly, off of the Yahoo group <terry@...>, I will send you a copy of a presentation I gave at the Emetrics Summit in Santa Barbara and London regarding "Selecting a Web Analytics Vendor".  The basic steps that I discuss in the paper include:

          1. Include the right people -- E.g., business, marketing, product, and IT managers; customer support; legal, and business research etc.

          2. Understand Web analytics basics -- Pages, visits, sessions, referrers, etc.

          3. Set business goals and budgets -- Define the purpose of the Web site (e.g., e-Commerce, lead generation, product information) as well as some total cost of ownership (TCO) calculations
           
          4. Select vendors -- Taking into account price, implementation details, Web site traffic, and the size/complexity of the Web site
           
          5. Final selection and negotiation -- Narrow the list down to 2 or 3 solutions, and then run a pilot using your data


          Until now I saw two vendors: WebTrends and Websidestory (HBX).

          I maintain a list of all the web analytics vendors that I know about at http://terrylund.com/referenceInfo.shtml, if you are interested in considering additional vendors.

           The
          latter I liked better. Why? It is browser based. You did not have to
          buy an extra server to run your logfiles analyzer (as in WebTrends)
          and you can generate reports automatically, even for particular parts
          of your web site. Quite useful, if you are, like me, in a world wide
          organisation.

          WebTrends can also be purchased as a service like HBX, so that you do not have to buy an extra server for analysis.


          But, there is a LOT in the HBX solution. My question is: do you use
          all that information or do you concentrate on a few Key Performance
          Indicators for your website, and which are these?

          It is important to start with a clear understanding of your business goals and "what is the purpose of the web site".  How does the web site contribute to your business goals?  From this understanding, you can define a few Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) to start monitoring.  It is easy to get overwhelmed with the amount of data and the sheer number of reports in HBX or any of the major vendors.

           And last, but not
          least: the budget issue. HBX can deliver more than WebTrends for
          less.

          Talk to each vendor to make sure you understand the pricing model, as it applies to your situation.  The service from WebTrends might be a better price for your needs, but I can't speak directly to pricing for either vendor.


          I know conversion (for sales) is one to look after, but what if you
          are working on a website that has not got a store on-line? (yes
          again, my situation).

          Go back to my earlier comment about understanding the purpose of the web site, and the specific goals.  If it is not direct sales, is it lead generation, branding and awareness, product information, customer support, etc.?  Once you have a clear understanding of the specific business goals and objectives, then it is easier to define the initial short list of KPIs to track and improve over time.


          Another question I have is how to 'train' and 'educate' people from
          around the world to 'read' web analytics reports.

          The best approach that I have found is by generating some specific examples of an analysis that is relevent for your business goals, and then use the examples to educate and inform others.  Find someone who is interested in understanding how to use the Web to grow a specific aspect of your business, and work with them to get some success stories.

          Please share!
          Thanks in advance, I am looking forward to read your stories.

          Please let us know how things go for you as you work on these issues.


          Terry Lund Consulting      http://www.terrylund.com
                                               Phone +1 585-624-8073
          Improving business results using Internet technology.

        • Eric Peterson
          Hey folks, So I ve seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory s HBX application which is nice, good to see people asking about these applications
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
            Hey folks,
             
            So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's HBX application which is nice, good to see people asking about these applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any of you folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors like Urchin, SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village (ok, I'm kidding about the latter, really ;-)
             
            It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
             
            Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused on Web analytics (at times).  Check this out:
             
             
            Cheers,
             
            Eric
          • quibble12345
            It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer a feature that isn t
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
              It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
              same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer a
              feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually there
              will be a shake out.

              Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
              especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics in the
              future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
              Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.

              The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate. Coremetrics
              has external hooks as well. So ...

              I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the future
              given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.


              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
              wrote:
              > Hey folks,
              >
              > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
              HBX
              > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
              > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are any of
              you
              > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors like
              Urchin,
              > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village (ok,
              I'm
              > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
              >
              > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
              > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
              >
              > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused on
              Web
              > analytics (at times). Check this out:
              >
              >
              <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
              > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
              its_not_like_ba.html
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Eric
            • jacques_warren
              Well, no wonder this similarity appears. Vendors try to follow what marketers need (or believe they do), and read all the stuff published by analytics gurus
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
                Well, no wonder this similarity appears. Vendors try to follow what
                marketers need (or believe they do), and read all the stuff published
                by analytics gurus (and Chief Inspirators), such as Eric Peterson,
                Jim Novo, Jim Sterne, and Bryan Eisenberg. It is normal then (and
                healthy, believe me!) that software developers orient the features
                accordingly.

                As for me, if I had to point to a future trend, I would very much go
                toward customer retention analysis (not my idea, of course, but Jim
                Novo's), and especially predictive modeling (VERY useful when it
                comes to predict churn). I've seen interesting things, such as SPSS's
                Clementine (with the web module, I don't mean NetGenesis).

                At some point, I guess Web analytics vendors will get there, because
                that's where the BI world is, and they're coming after the web.

                JW

                --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                wrote:
                > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer a
                > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                there
                > will be a shake out.
                >
                > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics in
                the
                > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                >
                > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                Coremetrics
                > has external hooks as well. So ...
                >
                > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                future
                > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                >
                >
                > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hey folks,
                > >
                > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                > HBX
                > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are any
                of
                > you
                > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                like
                > Urchin,
                > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village (ok,
                > I'm
                > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                > >
                > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                > >
                > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused on
                > Web
                > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                > >
                > >
                >
                <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
                > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                > its_not_like_ba.html
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Eric
              • Eric Peterson
                This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody won. While not
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
                  This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
                  idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                  won. While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                  vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                  from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                  them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                  that direction.

                  So is this a good thing or a bad thing?

                  Me, I'm not 100% sure. While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                  parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                  along more substantial lines - service, training and
                  implementation/installation support. I also fear parity because it
                  will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
                  seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
                  of years. While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                  that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                  analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
                  unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                  hate to see them fail ;-)

                  I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say. Those of you
                  on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                  feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                  innovate and stay ahead of the pack. I dare ya. I double-dog dare
                  ya.

                  Eric








                  --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                  > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer
                  a
                  > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                  there
                  > will be a shake out.
                  >
                  > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                  > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics in
                  the
                  > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                  > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                  >
                  > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                  Coremetrics
                  > has external hooks as well. So ...
                  >
                  > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                  future
                  > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Hey folks,
                  > >
                  > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                  > HBX
                  > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                  > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are any
                  of
                  > you
                  > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                  like
                  > Urchin,
                  > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                  (ok,
                  > I'm
                  > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                  > >
                  > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                  > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                  > >
                  > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                  on
                  > Web
                  > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                  >
                  > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                  > its_not_like_ba.html
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > >
                  > > Eric
                • johnmellor66
                  I can t resist a double-dog dare! So, if I take the position that the functionality to be added to our web analytics solution (Omniture s SiteCatalyst) has
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 29, 2004
                    I can't resist a double-dog dare!

                    So, if I take the position that the functionality to be added to our
                    web analytics solution (Omniture's SiteCatalyst) has somehow
                    plateaued, then I should tell our customers they can stop making
                    feature requests and our engineering team they can cancel those 15+
                    outstanding positions they're rushing to hire. Right? Wrong!

                    We've found that answers breed questions and questions demand greater
                    and greater functionality to dive deeper and integrate with other
                    areas/datamarts in the enterprise. Now I could say we just have an
                    extraordinarily smart user base (eBay, WalMart, Macromedia, HP, GM,
                    Nike, Gannett, CBS Sportsline, etc.) and therefore our product gets
                    pushed harder than most, but I'm afraid you'd see through that ;-)

                    The good news for everyone is that web analytics is in its infancy.
                    As users, we've pushed passed page views and unique visitors, but
                    we're still pretty proud of optimizing campaigns through A/B testing -
                    and rightly so, but there's SOOO much more to achieve. In my view,
                    we've gone from 1 bit to 8 bit gray scale yet the whole color
                    spectrum is ahead of us. A company's online channel is a microcosm
                    of their whole business - it includes marketing, sales, support,
                    finance, etc. - and is 100x more measurable than those same business
                    components in the offline world. For example, when the online store
                    of a retail chain begins to account for 10 - 20% of that chain's
                    gross revenue, people start to pay attention. And when that 10 - 20%
                    has a COMPLETE understanding of the activities that created the
                    demand, and eventually led to site behavior and/or purchase, we
                    understand why customers call our product 'Crack-iture'. Web
                    analytics is one of the purest sources of REAL customer behavior
                    information ever and everyone wants to have it.

                    The lines of web analytics were originally drawn around IT (those
                    poor guys) and have gradually migrated to include online marketing.
                    Those lines are rapidly expanding to include product development,
                    inventory management, finance, content programming, offline
                    marketing, etc, etc. If anything, we see that accelerating the need
                    for innovation in product and also in training systems.

                    We innovate because we have to. Not to beat the competition, but to
                    satisfy the needs of the industry's most prestigious customer base.
                    Beating the competition is just a nice side benefit ;-)

                    JM

                    --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson"
                    <eric.peterson@g...> wrote:
                    > This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often -
                    the
                    > idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                    > won. While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                    > vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                    > from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                    > them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                    > that direction.
                    >
                    > So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
                    >
                    > Me, I'm not 100% sure. While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                    > parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                    > along more substantial lines - service, training and
                    > implementation/installation support. I also fear parity because it
                    > will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has
                    already
                    > seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last
                    handful
                    > of years. While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                    > that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                    > analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with
                    vendors
                    > unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                    > hate to see them fail ;-)
                    >
                    > I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say. Those of you
                    > on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                    > feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                    > innovate and stay ahead of the pack. I dare ya. I double-dog dare
                    > ya.
                    >
                    > Eric
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of
                    the
                    > > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one
                    offer
                    > a
                    > > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                    > there
                    > > will be a shake out.
                    > >
                    > > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                    > > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics
                    in
                    > the
                    > > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                    > > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                    > >
                    > > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                    > Coremetrics
                    > > has external hooks as well. So ...
                    > >
                    > > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                    > future
                    > > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Hey folks,
                    > > >
                    > > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for
                    WebSideStory's
                    > > HBX
                    > > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                    > > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are
                    any
                    > of
                    > > you
                    > > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                    > like
                    > > Urchin,
                    > > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                    > (ok,
                    > > I'm
                    > > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                    > > >
                    > > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                    > > > applications given the diversity of the competitive
                    landscape ...
                    > > >
                    > > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                    > on
                    > > Web
                    > > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                    > >
                    > > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                    > > its_not_like_ba.html
                    > > >
                    > > > Cheers,
                    > > >
                    > > > Eric
                  • Matt Belkin
                    The feature/function wars are definitely not over. What we ve seen thus far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics. As John Mellor notes, web
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004

                      The “feature/function” wars are definitely not over.  What we’ve seen thus far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics.  As John Mellor notes, “web analytics is in its infancy”.  This is unquestionably true.  But I think the whole notion of “feature/function” wars is sort of misplaced.  The future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors adding similar features in each product rev.  It’s about expanding customer needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption lifecycle. 

                       

                      While it’s true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar on paper, if you actually use the products, you’ll realize just how different they are.  There are fundamental architecture differences that allow companies like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.  Unfortunately, while this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to remain the market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help prospects like “quibble1235” understand why they are better.  That is not a “feature/function” issue – it is a question of educating the market and moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
                       

                      This is no small issue – on one end of the spectrum (the laggards), I still hear people talk about “how many hits their website gets”.  Fortune 500 companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware that log files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like Omniture.

                       

                      At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are constantly pushing the envelope of Web Analytics.  We’re focused on how we can leverage Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer Analytics.  This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs, eLearning, etc.  And we’re not just talking about online.  This also means offline as well.  Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and epiphany.  These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence capabilities – mostly on the back-end with data warehouses.  Direct sales, customer service, finance, events, public relations – these are all customer touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into. True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are making some in-roads here, but we’re still way off. 

                       

                      Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these expanding customer needs - that’s the reality.  And as long as those needs change and evolve, the “feature/function” wars will never be over.

                      Finally, “quibble12345”, I would advise you to do a little more hands-on research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are allegedly the “BEST for eCommerce”.  Customer retention is a good place to start.

                       

                      - Matt.

                       


                      From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
                      To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?

                       

                      This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
                      idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                      won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                      vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                      from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                      them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                      that direction.

                      So is this a good thing or a bad thing? 

                      Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                      parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                      along more substantial lines - service, training and
                      implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
                      will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
                      seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
                      of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                      that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                      analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
                      unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                      hate to see them fail ;-)

                      I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
                      on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                      feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                      innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
                      ya.

                      Eric








                      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                      > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer
                      a
                      > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
                      there
                      > will be a shake out.
                      >
                      > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
                      > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
                      the
                      > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                      > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                      >
                      > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate. 
                      Coremetrics
                      > has external hooks as well.  So ...
                      >
                      > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                      future
                      > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Hey folks,
                      > > 
                      > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                      > HBX
                      > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                      > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
                      of
                      > you
                      > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                      like
                      > Urchin,
                      > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                      (ok,
                      > I'm
                      > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                      > > 
                      > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                      > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                      > > 
                      > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                      on
                      > Web
                      > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
                      > > 
                      > >    
                      >
                      <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                      >
                      > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                      > its_not_like_ba.html
                      > > 
                      > > Cheers,
                      > > 
                      > > Eric




                      ---------------------------------------
                      Web Metrics Discussion Group
                      Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                      Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                      http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com




                    • quibble12345
                      Certainly I can t commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many clients with analytics packages of their own choice. I have to be adept at a number of tools
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
                        Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many clients
                        with analytics packages of their own choice. I have to be adept at a
                        number of tools that is growing all of the time. I agree with Matt,
                        Omniture is really good. But I can't say that it's best.

                        In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
                        communication about and marketing of these tools. There is a big
                        silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the market.

                        Matt is right about the opportunity to educate. There seems to be
                        downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a sample
                        report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too). A lot of
                        the claims all sound the same. The differences are not sharply apparent.

                        If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
                        people try it out. The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
                        product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
                        http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do). Don't worry about the
                        competition, they'll see it anyway. Worry about getting the target
                        users interested in your tool. Right now the market is wide open.

                        Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke. I know it requires
                        explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
                        the actual product?


                        --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...> wrote:
                        > The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over. What we've
                        seen thus
                        > far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics. As John Mellor notes,
                        > "web analytics is in its infancy". This is unquestionably true. But I
                        > think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
                        misplaced. The
                        > future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors
                        > adding similar features in each product rev. It's about expanding
                        customer
                        > needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption
                        > lifecycle.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
                        on paper,
                        > if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how different they
                        > are. There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
                        companies
                        > like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
                        Unfortunately, while
                        > this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
                        remain the
                        > market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
                        prospects
                        > like "quibble1235" understand why they are better. That is not a
                        > "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the market and
                        > moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
                        >
                        >
                        > This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the laggards),
                        I still
                        > hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets". Fortune 500
                        > companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
                        that log
                        > files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from
                        > realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like
                        > Omniture.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
                        constantly
                        > pushing the envelope of Web Analytics. We're focused on how we can
                        leverage
                        > Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
                        Analytics.
                        > This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we
                        > communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs,
                        > eLearning, etc. And we're not just talking about online. This also
                        means
                        > offline as well. Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
                        epiphany.
                        > These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
                        capabilities -
                        > mostly on the back-end with data warehouses. Direct sales, customer
                        > service, finance, events, public relations - these are all customer
                        > touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into.
                        > True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
                        making some
                        > in-roads here, but we're still way off.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these
                        > expanding customer needs - that's the reality. And as long as those
                        needs
                        > change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more hands-on
                        > research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are
                        > allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce". Customer retention is a good
                        place to
                        > start.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > - Matt.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
                        > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
                        > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
                        > idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                        > won. While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                        > vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                        > from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                        > them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                        > that direction.
                        >
                        > So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
                        >
                        > Me, I'm not 100% sure. While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                        > parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                        > along more substantial lines - service, training and
                        > implementation/installation support. I also fear parity because it
                        > will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
                        > seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
                        > of years. While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                        > that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                        > analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
                        > unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                        > hate to see them fail ;-)
                        >
                        > I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say. Those of you
                        > on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                        > feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                        > innovate and stay ahead of the pack. I dare ya. I double-dog dare
                        > ya.
                        >
                        > Eric
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                        > > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer
                        > a
                        > > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                        > there
                        > > will be a shake out.
                        > >
                        > > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                        > > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics in
                        > the
                        > > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                        > > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                        > >
                        > > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                        > Coremetrics
                        > > has external hooks as well. So ...
                        > >
                        > > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                        > future
                        > > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > Hey folks,
                        > > >
                        > > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                        > > HBX
                        > > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                        > > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are any
                        > of
                        > > you
                        > > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                        > like
                        > > Urchin,
                        > > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                        > (ok,
                        > > I'm
                        > > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                        > > >
                        > > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                        > > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                        > > >
                        > > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                        > on
                        > > Web
                        > > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                        > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
                        > >
                        > > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                        > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
                        > > its_not_like_ba.html
                        > > >
                        > > > Cheers,
                        > > >
                        > > > Eric
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------------
                        > Web Metrics Discussion Group
                        > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                        > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                        > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
                        > <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • michael_tyrrell@freddiemac.com
                        Forgive me if you ve said this already, but what firm do you work for? quibble12345
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
                          Forgive me if you've said this already, but what firm do you work for?



                          quibble12345
                          <aablank@hotmail. To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                          com> cc:
                          Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?
                          06/30/2004 05:43
                          PM
                          Please respond to
                          webanalytics






                          Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many clients
                          with analytics packages of their own choice. I have to be adept at a
                          number of tools that is growing all of the time. I agree with Matt,
                          Omniture is really good. But I can't say that it's best.

                          In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
                          communication about and marketing of these tools. There is a big
                          silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the market.

                          Matt is right about the opportunity to educate. There seems to be
                          downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a sample
                          report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too). A lot of
                          the claims all sound the same. The differences are not sharply apparent.

                          If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
                          people try it out. The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
                          product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
                          http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do). Don't worry about the
                          competition, they'll see it anyway. Worry about getting the target
                          users interested in your tool. Right now the market is wide open.

                          Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke. I know it requires
                          explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
                          the actual product?


                          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...> wrote:
                          > The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over. What we've
                          seen thus
                          > far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics. As John Mellor notes,
                          > "web analytics is in its infancy". This is unquestionably true. But I
                          > think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
                          misplaced. The
                          > future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors
                          > adding similar features in each product rev. It's about expanding
                          customer
                          > needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption
                          > lifecycle.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
                          on paper,
                          > if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how different they
                          > are. There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
                          companies
                          > like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
                          Unfortunately, while
                          > this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
                          remain the
                          > market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
                          prospects
                          > like "quibble1235" understand why they are better. That is not a
                          > "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the market and
                          > moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
                          >
                          >
                          > This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the laggards),
                          I still
                          > hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets". Fortune 500
                          > companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
                          that log
                          > files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from
                          > realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like
                          > Omniture.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
                          constantly
                          > pushing the envelope of Web Analytics. We're focused on how we can
                          leverage
                          > Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
                          Analytics.
                          > This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we
                          > communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs,
                          > eLearning, etc. And we're not just talking about online. This also
                          means
                          > offline as well. Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
                          epiphany.
                          > These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
                          capabilities -
                          > mostly on the back-end with data warehouses. Direct sales, customer
                          > service, finance, events, public relations - these are all customer
                          > touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into.
                          > True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
                          making some
                          > in-roads here, but we're still way off.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these
                          > expanding customer needs - that's the reality. And as long as those
                          needs
                          > change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more hands-on
                          > research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are
                          > allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce". Customer retention is a good
                          place to
                          > start.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > - Matt.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
                          > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
                          > idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                          > won. While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                          > vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                          > from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                          > them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                          > that direction.
                          >
                          > So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
                          >
                          > Me, I'm not 100% sure. While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                          > parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                          > along more substantial lines - service, training and
                          > implementation/installation support. I also fear parity because it
                          > will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
                          > seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
                          > of years. While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                          > that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                          > analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
                          > unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                          > hate to see them fail ;-)
                          >
                          > I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say. Those of you
                          > on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                          > feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                          > innovate and stay ahead of the pack. I dare ya. I double-dog dare
                          > ya.
                          >
                          > Eric
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                          > > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one offer
                          > a
                          > > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                          > there
                          > > will be a shake out.
                          > >
                          > > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                          > > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics in
                          > the
                          > > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                          > > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                          > >
                          > > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                          > Coremetrics
                          > > has external hooks as well. So ...
                          > >
                          > > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                          > future
                          > > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > Hey folks,
                          > > >
                          > > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                          > > HBX
                          > > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about these
                          > > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are any
                          > of
                          > > you
                          > > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                          > like
                          > > Urchin,
                          > > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                          > (ok,
                          > > I'm
                          > > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                          > > >
                          > > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                          > > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                          > > >
                          > > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                          > on
                          > > Web
                          > > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                          > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html>
                          > >
                          > > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                          > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
                          > > its_not_like_ba.html
                          > > >
                          > > > Cheers,
                          > > >
                          > > > Eric
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------------
                          > Web Metrics Discussion Group
                          > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                          > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                          > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
                          > <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
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                          > _____
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/>
                          >
                          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                          ---------------------------------------
                          Web Metrics Discussion Group
                          Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                          Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                          http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Eric Peterson
                          Interesting points, all, Matt. While I am inclined to agree with you regarding customer-centric organization I m slightly more pessimistic about the ultimate
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
                            Interesting points, all, Matt.  While I am inclined to agree with you regarding customer-centric organization I'm slightly more pessimistic about the ultimate depths current and future vendors will take their feature sets.  Your comments about companies like Cognos, SAS and epiphany providing critical insights into customer intelligence are well put but do you think that "Web analytics" should be bounded somehow?  I guess what I'm asking is, if the current analytics vendors start to analyze the multitudes of data types currently available to the realm of "marketing" and "customer analytics" how will we know that they are Web analytics applications vendors anymore?
                             
                            Certainly it's an open question, what features and functions should be included in the toolsets provided by companies like WebTrends, WebSideStory and Omniture (just to name a few).  As we see each of the top-tier vendors, as well as a handful of the so-called "mid-tier" vendors, expanding into new realms - WebTrends acquires Web Position Gold, Coremetrics partners with ATG, WebSideStory partners with Atomz, etc. - we as relative outsiders are forced to sit back and adopt a "wait and see" attitude regarding their likelihood to succeed with these endeavours.  To this end, and my point about the feature/function wars, we can be fairly sure that if any one vendor gains traction in a new market that the rest of the pack will follow.  Think about the analytics vendors recent interest in search (site search, bid management, SEO, SEM) and ask yourself how long it will be before the entire top-tier has some significant investment/partnership in online search capabilities.
                             
                            Finally, I strongly agree with Mr. Belkin regarding his advice to "quibble12345" taking a closer look at each vendor before making a decision to switch vendors.  Data we've collected in my day job indicates that the costs associated with switching are much higher than often thought -- both in terms of retraining and reimplementation/reinstallation -- and thusly companies should look for better criteria to drive vendor change than any claims that a vendor, a company, or even an analyst makes ;-)
                             
                             


                            From: Matt Belkin [mailto:mbelkin@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:31 AM
                            To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [webanalytics] What applications are other people using?

                            The “feature/function” wars are definitely not over.  What we’ve seen thus far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics.  As John Mellor notes, “web analytics is in its infancy”.  This is unquestionably true.  But I think the whole notion of “feature/function” wars is sort of misplaced.  The future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top vendors adding similar features in each product rev.  It’s about expanding customer needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics adoption lifecycle. 

                             

                            While it’s true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar on paper, if you actually use the products, you’ll realize just how different they are.  There are fundamental architecture differences that allow companies like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.  Unfortunately, while this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to remain the market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help prospects like “quibble1235” understand why they are better.  That is not a “feature/function” issue – it is a question of educating the market and moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
                             

                            This is no small issue – on one end of the spectrum (the laggards), I still hear people talk about “how many hits their website gets”.  Fortune 500 companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware that log files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away from realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages like Omniture.

                             

                            At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are constantly pushing the envelope of Web Analytics.  We’re focused on how we can leverage Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer Analytics.  This means not just website traffic, but any online activities where we communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support, blogs, eLearning, etc.  And we’re not just talking about online.  This also means offline as well.  Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and epiphany.  These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence capabilities – mostly on the back-end with data warehouses.  Direct sales, customer service, finance, events, public relations – these are all customer touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view into. True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are making some in-roads here, but we’re still way off. 

                             

                            Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address these expanding customer needs - that’s the reality.  And as long as those needs change and evolve, the “feature/function” wars will never be over.

                            Finally, “quibble12345”, I would advise you to do a little more hands-on research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they are allegedly the “BEST for eCommerce”.  Customer retention is a good place to start.

                             

                            - Matt.

                             


                            From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
                            To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?

                             

                            This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often - the
                            idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                            won.  While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                            vendors that I personally believe still have competitive advantages
                            from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                            them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                            that direction.

                            So is this a good thing or a bad thing? 

                            Me, I'm not 100% sure.  While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                            parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                            along more substantial lines - service, training and
                            implementation/installation support.  I also fear parity because it
                            will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has already
                            seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last handful
                            of years.  While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                            that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                            analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with vendors
                            unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                            hate to see them fail ;-)

                            I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say.  Those of you
                            on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                            feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                            innovate and stay ahead of the pack.  I dare ya.  I double-dog dare
                            ya.

                            Eric








                            --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                            wrote:
                            > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of the
                            > same features (albeit some better than others).  How can one offer
                            a
                            > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others?  Eventually
                            there
                            > will be a shake out.
                            >
                            > Currently we use Omniture for some clients.  It is pretty good,
                            > especially compared to WebTrends.  We will be using Coremetrics in
                            the
                            > future.  It has the reputation for being the BEST for e-commerce.
                            > Why?  I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                            >
                            > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate. 
                            Coremetrics
                            > has external hooks as well.  So ...
                            >
                            > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                            future
                            > given their resources.  So I'm not so sure what to think.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > Hey folks,
                            > > 
                            > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for WebSideStory's
                            > HBX
                            >

                            > application which is nice, good to see people asking about
                            these
                            > > applications - especially from overseas.  I'm wondering, are any
                            of
                            > you
                            > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                            like
                            > Urchin,
                            > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                            (ok,
                            > I'm
                            > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                            > > 
                            > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set of
                            > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape ...
                            > > 
                            > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog focused
                            on
                            > Web
                            > > analytics (at times).  Check this out:
                            >

                            >
                            >    

                            >
                            <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/its_not_like_ba.html
                            >
                            > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                            > its_not_like_ba.html
                            > > 
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > 
                            > > Eric




                            ---------------------------------------
                            Web Metrics Discussion Group
                            Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                            Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                            http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com







                            ---------------------------------------
                            Web Metrics Discussion Group
                            Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                            Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                            http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com



                          • quibble12345
                            I work for Resource Interactive. We create web sites for Fortune 500 clients. ... for? ... webanalytics@yahoogroups.com ... [webanalytics] Re: What
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 1, 2004
                              I work for Resource Interactive. We create web sites for Fortune 500
                              clients.

                              --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, michael_tyrrell@f... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Forgive me if you've said this already, but what firm do you work
                              for?
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              > quibble12345

                              > <aablank@hotmail. To:
                              webanalytics@yahoogroups.com

                              > com> cc:

                              > Subject:
                              [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people using?

                              > 06/30/2004 05:43

                              > PM

                              > Please respond to

                              > webanalytics

                              >

                              >

                              >
                              >


                              >
                              >
                              > Certainly I can't commit to any vendor, as my firm helps many
                              clients
                              > with analytics packages of their own choice. I have to be adept at
                              a
                              > number of tools that is growing all of the time. I agree with Matt,
                              > Omniture is really good. But I can't say that it's best.
                              >
                              > In my previous message, I was relaying my frustration with the
                              > communication about and marketing of these tools. There is a big
                              > silence about who to use because of a lack of experience in the
                              market.
                              >
                              > Matt is right about the opportunity to educate. There seems to be
                              > downright fear from the vendors regarding showing too much of a
                              sample
                              > report on a web site (some offline dataminers do it too). A lot of
                              > the claims all sound the same. The differences are not sharply
                              apparent.
                              >
                              > If there's a lack of experience in the market, put up a demo to let
                              > people try it out. The way I see it, if a company really thinks its
                              > product is the best in the market, show it off (take a look at
                              > http://www.spss.com/clementine/, they do). Don't worry about the
                              > competition, they'll see it anyway. Worry about getting the target
                              > users interested in your tool. Right now the market is wide open.
                              >
                              > Granted, it's not like buying a fries and a Coke. I know it
                              requires
                              > explanation, but in what analogous market does it make sense to hide
                              > the actual product?
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Matt Belkin <mbelkin@m...>
                              wrote:
                              > > The "feature/function" wars are definitely not over. What we've
                              > seen thus
                              > > far is just the tip of iceberg for Web Analytics. As John Mellor
                              notes,
                              > > "web analytics is in its infancy". This is unquestionably true.
                              But I
                              > > think the whole notion of "feature/function" wars is sort of
                              > misplaced. The
                              > > future of Web Analytics is really much deeper than just the top
                              vendors
                              > > adding similar features in each product rev. It's about expanding
                              > customer
                              > > needs, how vendors can meet those needs, and the web analytics
                              adoption
                              > > lifecycle.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > While it's true that many Web Analytics vendor appear very similar
                              > on paper,
                              > > if you actually use the products, you'll realize just how
                              different they
                              > > are. There are fundamental architecture differences that allow
                              > companies
                              > > like Omniture to perform better than say, coreMetrics.
                              > Unfortunately, while
                              > > this competitive advantage (among many others) allows Omniture to
                              > remain the
                              > > market leader, they must also step up to that opportunity and help
                              > prospects
                              > > like "quibble1235" understand why they are better. That is not a
                              > > "feature/function" issue - it is a question of educating the
                              market and
                              > > moving customers along the adoption lifecycle.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > This is no small issue - on one end of the spectrum (the
                              laggards),
                              > I still
                              > > hear people talk about "how many hits their website gets".
                              Fortune 500
                              > > companies are still using log files to track IP addresses (unaware
                              > that log
                              > > files are worthless). These folks are months if not years away
                              from
                              > > realizing the capabilities available in Web Analytics packages
                              like
                              > > Omniture.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > At the other end of the spectrum, companies like Macromedia are
                              > constantly
                              > > pushing the envelope of Web Analytics. We're focused on how we
                              can
                              > leverage
                              > > Web Analytics to fill the enormous void in Marketing and Customer
                              > Analytics.
                              > > This means not just website traffic, but any online activities
                              where we
                              > > communicate with customers. Virtual seminars, customer support,
                              blogs,
                              > > eLearning, etc. And we're not just talking about online. This
                              also
                              > means
                              > > offline as well. Take a look at companies like Cognos, SAS, and
                              > epiphany.
                              > > These folks provide critical offline customer intelligence
                              > capabilities -
                              > > mostly on the back-end with data warehouses. Direct sales,
                              customer
                              > > service, finance, events, public relations - these are all
                              customer
                              > > touchpoints that we care about, but that Web Analytics has no view
                              into.
                              > > True, vendors like Omniture, WebSideStory, and CoreMetrics are
                              > making some
                              > > in-roads here, but we're still way off.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Success in this market will be defined by how well vendors address
                              these
                              > > expanding customer needs - that's the reality. And as long as
                              those
                              > needs
                              > > change and evolve, the "feature/function" wars will never be over.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Finally, "quibble12345", I would advise you to do a little more
                              hands-on
                              > > research before arbitrarily committing to a vendor because they
                              are
                              > > allegedly the "BEST for eCommerce". Customer retention is a good
                              > place to
                              > > start.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > - Matt.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric.peterson@g...]
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:52 PM
                              > > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: [webanalytics] Re: What applications are other people
                              using?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > This is an interesting trend that comes up more and more often -
                              the
                              > > idea that the feature/function wars are now nearly over and nobody
                              > > won. While not necessarily true today - I can think of several
                              > > vendors that I personally believe still have competitive
                              advantages
                              > > from a feature/function standpoint (and no, I'm not going to name
                              > > them by name, sorry) - vendors do appear to be heading rapidly in
                              > > that direction.
                              > >
                              > > So is this a good thing or a bad thing?
                              > >
                              > > Me, I'm not 100% sure. While one one hand I'm in favor of feature
                              > > parity because it will force vendors to differentiate themselves
                              > > along more substantial lines - service, training and
                              > > implementation/installation support. I also fear parity because
                              it
                              > > will likely cause further price erosion in a market that has
                              already
                              > > seen a substatial decline in gross profitability in the last
                              handful
                              > > of years. While surely this will be the impetus of the shake-up
                              > > that "quibble12345" mentioned, and I certainly believe that the
                              > > analytics market is dangerously close to being polluted with
                              vendors
                              > > unlikely to succeed, some of my best friends are vendors and I'd
                              > > hate to see them fail ;-)
                              > >
                              > > I'm interested to hear what the vendors have to say. Those of you
                              > > on the list, if you care to speak up, make a case for why the
                              > > feature/function wars aren't over and how you're gonna continue to
                              > > innovate and stay ahead of the pack. I dare ya. I double-dog
                              dare
                              > > ya.
                              > >
                              > > Eric
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "quibble12345" <aablank@h...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > It seems as if all of the services are starting to offer all of
                              the
                              > > > same features (albeit some better than others). How can one
                              offer
                              > > a
                              > > > feature that isn't immediately copied by the others? Eventually
                              > > there
                              > > > will be a shake out.
                              > > >
                              > > > Currently we use Omniture for some clients. It is pretty good,
                              > > > especially compared to WebTrends. We will be using Coremetrics
                              in
                              > > the
                              > > > future. It has the reputation for being the BEST for
                              e-commerce.
                              > > > Why? I can't tell a difference from the literature.
                              > > >
                              > > > The Jupiter Research study mentioned G2 as the ultimate.
                              > > Coremetrics
                              > > > has external hooks as well. So ...
                              > > >
                              > > > I've heard that Double Click could be the 800lbs gorilla in the
                              > > future
                              > > > given their resources. So I'm not so sure what to think.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Peterson" <eric@w...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > Hey folks,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So I've seen some support on the list recently for
                              WebSideStory's
                              > > > HBX
                              > > > > application which is nice, good to see people asking about
                              these
                              > > > > applications - especially from overseas. I'm wondering, are
                              any
                              > > of
                              > > > you
                              > > > > folks using less traditional applications -- apps from vendors
                              > > like
                              > > > Urchin,
                              > > > > SPSS, Visual Sciences, ClickTracks or perhaps Visitor Village
                              > > (ok,
                              > > > I'm
                              > > > > kidding about the latter, really ;-)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It's hard for me to believe that we're all using the same set
                              of
                              > > > > applications given the diversity of the competitive landscape
                              ...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Also, Bryan Eisenberg sent me a link to a humorous blog
                              focused
                              > > on
                              > > > Web
                              > > > > analytics (at times). Check this out:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/
                              06/its_not_like_ba.html
                              > > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/
                              06/its_not_like_ba.html>
                              > > >
                              > > > > http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/
                              > > <http://persuasion.typepad.com/architect/2004/06/>
                              > > > its_not_like_ba.html
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Cheers,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Eric
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------------
                              > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
                              > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                              > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                              > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
                              > > <http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ADVERTISEMENT
                              > >
                              > >
                              > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129vp561t/M=295196.
                              4901138.6071305.3001176
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                              > >
                              >
                              oups/S=1705005582:HM/EXP=1088650339/A=2128215/R=0/
                              SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/compa
                              >
                              > > nion.yahoo.com> click here
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                              > > :HM/A=2128215/rand=625682295>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
                              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/>
                              > >
                              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.c
                              om?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                              > Service
                              > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------------
                              > Web Metrics Discussion Group
                              > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
                              > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
                              > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Braden Hoeppner
                              Hi Eric, Any chance you can post that information about the cost of switching vendors? I believe that this is an important feature of an analytics vendor:
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 2, 2004
                                Hi Eric,
                                 
                                Any chance you can post that information about the cost of switching vendors?
                                 
                                 I believe that this is an important 'feature' of an analytics vendor: how easy is it to get your data if you decide to switch? Not only a problem with web analytics, but as software companies move online, and packages move to a subscription based approach, it becomes difficult to 'get your data' out in a usable form should you decide to switch vendors at some point. If you switch vendors and they have a different methodology of tracking, or do not have a good export tool, your historic data could be useless.
                                 
                                I understand that offering a good export package seems to be something that would promote churn, but as the market becomes more competitive I don't think people will put up with the inability to have full control over there data - this is probably even more true as web analysts become more adept and manipulating data to produce important metrics for their businesses needs.
                                 
                                Cheers,
                                Braden


                                From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:43 PM
                                To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [webanalytics] What applications are other people using?

                                Interesting points, all, Matt.  While I am inclined to agree with you regarding customer-centric organization I'm slightly more pessimistic about the ultimate depths current and future vendors will take their feature sets.  Your comments about companies like Cognos, SAS and epiphany providing critical insights into customer intelligence are well put but do you think that "Web analytics" should be bounded somehow?  I guess what I'm asking is, if the current analytics vendors start to analyze the multitudes of data types currently available to the realm of "marketing" and "customer analytics" how will we know that they are Web analytics applications vendors anymore?
                                 
                                Certainly it's an open question, what features and functions should be included in the toolsets provided by companies like WebTrends, WebSideStory and Omniture (just to name a few).  As we see each of the top-tier vendors, as well as a handful of the so-called "mid-tier" vendors, expanding into new realms - WebTrends acquires Web Position Gold, Coremetrics partners with ATG, WebSideStory partners with Atomz, etc. - we as relative outsiders are forced to sit back and adopt a "wait and see" attitude regarding their likelihood to succeed with these endeavours.  To this end, and my point about the feature/function wars, we can be fairly sure that if any one vendor gains traction in a new market that the rest of the pack will follow.  Think about the analytics vendors recent interest in search (site search, bid management, SEO, SEM) and ask yourself how long it will be before the entire top-tier has some significant investment/partnership in online search capabilities.
                                 
                                Finally, I strongly agree with Mr. Belkin regarding his advice to "quibble12345" taking a closer look at each vendor before making a decision to switch vendors.  Data we've collected in my day job indicates that the costs associated with switching are much higher than often thought -- both in terms of retraining and reimplementation/reinstallation -- and thusly companies should look for better criteria to drive vendor change than any claims that a vendor, a company, or even an analyst makes ;-)
                                 
                                 

                              • Eric Peterson
                                Braden, Excellent comments! While I cannot share specific data regarding the cost of switching, these costs generally emerge from three specific areas: IT
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 2, 2004
                                  Braden,

                                  Excellent comments! While I cannot share specific data regarding the cost of switching, these costs generally emerge from three specific areas: IT resources, training and relationship development.

                                  IT resources is pretty obvious - if you're moving from a log-based solution, ala WebTrends, to a tag-based method there is the cost of tagging pages. I mention this since this is a pretty common direction for companies to move, away from log files. Some of the hidden costs here include the time it takes to devise a hierarchy and implementation plan for data collection, establishment of custom variables, segmentation strategy (if the application does not allow ad hoc, historical segmentation).

                                  Training is also fairly obvious - your company is likely pretty used to the kinds of reports they've been getting and now you need to retrain them to use different reports/language/concepts/etc. Providing your new provider has an experienced team to provide training support this is less of an issue but I caution my clients to be careful when examining training options. Analytics training is not a "one size fits all" endeavour - different levels of training should be offered, from "basic training" on the interface all the way up to "expert user" and "business objective" focused training programs (typically delivered by analysts, less often by CSR or training teams).

                                  Relationship development is the cost that is usually overlooked - the time it will take you to establish a strong relationship with your new vendor of choice. The top-tier players in analytics all have a slightly different approach to customer support and some of these approaches work better than others. While I obviously cannot advise anyone about which vendor has a strategy that would work for them, I can say this. It's not a bad idea to ask to talk to/meet the person or team that will be responsible for your relationship after the ink dries DURING the pre-sale process. Time and time again we see that companies that have a strong relationship with their vendor - software or services, does not matter - are more likely to make good use of the application.

                                  Regarding your comment about portability of data, this is tricky. If you're tied to historicals then I recommend you examine "why" this is the case. Companies that place too heavy a reliance on historical data are often not taking advantage of the tactical value of said applications. Switching data collection devices - even from tags to tags or logs to logs - almost always concern about comparison to historical data. My advice is to focus more on recently collected data, take advantage of emerging tools for A/B testing and site/marketing optimization, and select the best tool for the job NOW, not year over year.

                                  Eric

                                  P.S. I do hear rumors that one of the vendors has devised a way to either import data from other applications/data formats and/or co-opt competitors tags and collect partial data without massive re-tagging. If anyone has more details about this rumor I'd love to know!




                                  ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                  From: "Braden Hoeppner" <braden.hoeppner@...>
                                  Reply-To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:23:34 -0700

                                  >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

                                  >Hi Eric,
                                  >
                                  >Any chance you can post that information about the cost of switching vendors?
                                  >
                                  > I believe that this is an important 'feature' of an analytics vendor: how easy is it to get your data if you decide to switch? Not only a problem with web analytics, but as software companies move online, and packages move to a subscription based approach, it becomes difficult to 'get your data'
                                  >out in a usable form should you decide to switch vendors at some point. If you switch vendors and they have a different methodology of tracking, or do not have a good export tool, your historic data could be useless.
                                  >
                                  >I understand that offering a good export package seems to be something that would promote churn, but as the market becomes more competitive I don't think people will put up with the inability to have full control over there data - this is probably even more true as web analysts become more adept and
                                  >manipulating data to produce important metrics for their businesses needs.
                                  >
                                  >Cheers,
                                  >Braden
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  >From: Eric Peterson [mailto:eric@...]
                                  >Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 8:43 PM
                                  >To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: RE: [webanalytics] What applications are other people using?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Interesting points, all, Matt. While I am inclined to agree with you regarding customer-centric organization I'm slightly more pessimistic about the ultimate depths current and future vendors will take their feature sets. Your comments about companies like Cognos, SAS and epiphany providing
                                  >critical insights into customer intelligence are well put but do you think that "Web analytics" should be bounded somehow? I guess what I'm asking is, if the current analytics vendors start to analyze the multitudes of data types currently available to the realm of "marketing" and "customer
                                  >analytics" how will we know that they are Web analytics applications vendors anymore?
                                  >
                                  >Certainly it's an open question, what features and functions should be included in the toolsets provided by companies like WebTrends, WebSideStory and Omniture (just to name a few). As we see each of the top-tier vendors, as well as a handful of the so-called "mid-tier" vendors, expanding into new
                                  >realms - WebTrends acquires Web Position Gold, Coremetrics partners with ATG, WebSideStory partners with Atomz, etc. - we as relative outsiders are forced to sit back and adopt a "wait and see" attitude regarding their likelihood to succeed with these endeavours. To this end, and my point about the
                                  >feature/function wars, we can be fairly sure that if any one vendor gains traction in a new market that the rest of the pack will follow. Think about the analytics vendors recent interest in search (site search, bid management, SEO, SEM) and ask yourself how long it will be before the entire
                                  >top-tier has some significant investment/partnership in online search capabilities.
                                  >
                                  >Finally, I strongly agree with Mr. Belkin regarding his advice to "quibble12345" taking a closer look at each vendor before making a decision to switch vendors. Data we've collected in my day job indicates that the costs associated with switching are much higher than often thought -- both in terms
                                  >of retraining and reimplementation/reinstallation -- and thusly companies should look for better criteria to drive vendor change than any claims that a vendor, a company, or even an analyst makes ;-)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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