Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Does a web analyst have to know how an I.P. address is constructed?

Expand Messages
  • nevertrustab
    I know many SEOs usually don t really know how an IP address is created and what the different octets stand for approximately (or what an A a B or a C class
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 17, 2007
      I know many SEOs usually don't really know how an IP address is
      created and what the different octets stand for approximately (or what
      an A a B or a C class really is).

      Is this something a great web analyst should know or would you guys
      consider such knowledge "nice to know, but unnecessary"?

      I was thinking it might be of more importance in web analytics than in
      SEO...
    • Steve
      Ha! This question reminds me of how we used to joke at Uni that you only needed to study 51% of the material in a given subject. If you got a mark higher than
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 17, 2007
        Ha!
        This question reminds me of how we used to joke at Uni that you only
        needed to study 51% of the material in a given subject. If you got a
        mark higher than that, then you had wasted time that could have been
        better spent....... elsewhere. Sitting in the Great Court soaking up
        copious quantities of sunshine being #1. :-)


        I would say *yes* for two reasons:
        1. Any learning is a Good Thing(tm). More so when it does relate, even
        obliquely, to the matter at hand.
        2. I tend to be down in the IP weeds anyway, so it's another tool to
        my hand when I need it. Why throw away a perfectly good spanner or
        hammer?


        Contrariwise, I'd bet there are heaps of top shelf superb analysts in
        this forum who have thrown away their IP/Subnet tables and books ;-)
        and still produce all the results you could ever desire.


        Do it to learn something new. Not because it's useful, or not.

        ???

        Cheers!
        - Steve


        On 6/17/07, nevertrustab <patriccc@...> wrote:
        > I know many SEOs usually don't really know how an IP address is
        > created and what the different octets stand for approximately (or what
        > an A a B or a C class really is).
        >
        > Is this something a great web analyst should know or would you guys
        > consider such knowledge "nice to know, but unnecessary"?
        >
        > I was thinking it might be of more importance in web analytics than in
        > SEO...
      • Stephane Hamel
        My moto these days is You don t have to know everything, but you have to know where to find the answer . I have 20 years of IT background and has been
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 18, 2007
          My "moto" these days is "You don't have to know everything, but you
          have to know where to find the answer".

          I have 20 years of IT background and has been closely involved with
          the Internet and Web development for the last 13 years... and
          honestly, I don't care about IP and I rarely have to worry about it in
          web analytics. Even as a senior ebusiness architect, I don't have to
          worry about IP that much anymore, it's been mostly "commoditized".

          Unless... unless I want to dig a very specific configuration
          problem... in which case all my experience and expertise comes in
          handy, or I have to turn to people who have deeper knowledge in very
          specific areas of networking/security.

          S.Hamel
          eBusiness Architect, practitioner, speaker, blogger and all related
          tasks :)
          http://blog.immeria.net

          --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "nevertrustab" <patriccc@...> wrote:
          >
          > I know many SEOs usually don't really know how an IP address is
          > created and what the different octets stand for approximately (or what
          > an A a B or a C class really is).
          >
          > Is this something a great web analyst should know or would you guys
          > consider such knowledge "nice to know, but unnecessary"?
          >
          > I was thinking it might be of more importance in web analytics than in
          > SEO...
          >
        • Wandering Dave Rhee
          Steve makes an interesting point, but I m inclined to agree with Stephane on this one -- is knowledge of the current IP address space useful to make business
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 18, 2007
            Steve makes an interesting point, but I'm inclined to agree with Stephane on
            this one -- is knowledge of the current IP address space useful to make
            business decisions? For most organizations, the answer is yes, but the
            resources drawn upon would be IT-based, rather than web or marketing based.
            If the web analyst is part of an IT group, where IPv4 challenges are a
            routine topic of conversation, then certainly knowing how to construct an
            n-bit subdomain mask using binary representations would be a minimum ante to
            join the group.

            But for most of us, the topic will come up so seldom, if ever, that knowing
            how to find a colleague who can provide relevant contextual advice is a far
            more useful skill.

            More likely, if I asked a bright IT colleague about DNServices routing and
            subnet masking for class B addresses, they'd come back and tell me that it
            doesn't matter, because of some other technical element that's far more
            important. (E.g., akamai caching means my own server load balancing stats
            won't tell the whole story, etc.)

            Similarly, who needs to know the bit patterns for T1 headers? Well, telecom
            engineers certainly do, but once everything is routed over OC96 lines
            subdivided into T3s straight into a data switch, then the little details
            down at the "bottom of the food chain" should be handled as an
            implementation detail -- not as a factor critical to success that would
            affect decision making at the level a web analyst should be working at.

            Besides -- if you need to know something that you don't already know, you
            can always ask here in the WA Forum. For any given topic, you're sure to
            get at least two conflicting answers, sometimes from the same person! ;-)

            WDave, who thinks the most important IP addresses are on Sand Hill Road
            (in-joke for you Intellectual Property lawyers lurking in the crowd)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • nevertrustab
            hehe well i did read up on it a bit for a couple of hours, but that ll be enough for now. I just thought I should know apppprrroooximately how an IP address is
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 18, 2007
              hehe well i did read up on it a bit for a couple of hours, but that'll
              be enough for now. I just thought I should know apppprrroooximately
              how an IP address is constructed instead of always talking about "c
              class ip addresses" (im more SEO than web analyst at the moment) and
              not really knowing what it is (like many SEOs...). But now I know a
              bit about it and realize I dont need to know more about it, which is
              okay with me - Ill use my time for learning more about analytics ;)
            • nevertrustab
              Wow, I didnt really mean it as in-depth as that lol. I guess I shouldn t have used the word constructed (English isnt my first language). Basically what I
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 19, 2007
                Wow, I didnt really mean it as in-depth as that lol. I guess I
                shouldn't have used the word "constructed" (English isnt my first
                language).

                Basically what I meant to say is: Does a web analyst have to know
                such things about IP addresses as..what is an A-class a B-class a C-
                class...that the first 3 octets are assigned to the network and the
                4th to the host (for a c class IP address). More simplistic stuff
                like that..

                which might help one notice if its the ip address from a large
                organization (A class ip address) or more likely to be from a
                private home (c class ip address). Rather less complicated things
                like that.

                I was asking this, because that's pretty much what I know about IP
                addresses after reading a couple of articles on it and realized most
                SEOs (coming from the SEO field) have hardly any clue what an IP
                address is how they're "built" (4 octets..a c class being when...
                etc.) but just say "links from different c class ip addresses" often
                not really knowing what that is, but getting away with it easily,
                because for an SEO it doesnt really matter.

                But I assume a web analyst doesn't necessarily have to know that
                either? or does she?



                --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Wandering Dave Rhee"
                <wdaveonline@...> wrote:
                >
                > Steve makes an interesting point, but I'm inclined to agree with
                Stephane on
                > this one -- is knowledge of the current IP address space useful to
                make
                > business decisions? For most organizations, the answer is yes,
                but the
                > resources drawn upon would be IT-based, rather than web or
                marketing based.
                > If the web analyst is part of an IT group, where IPv4 challenges
                are a
                > routine topic of conversation, then certainly knowing how to
                construct an
                > n-bit subdomain mask using binary representations would be a
                minimum ante to
                > join the group.
                >
                > But for most of us, the topic will come up so seldom, if ever,
                that knowing
                > how to find a colleague who can provide relevant contextual advice
                is a far
                > more useful skill.
                >
                > More likely, if I asked a bright IT colleague about DNServices
                routing and
                > subnet masking for class B addresses, they'd come back and tell me
                that it
                > doesn't matter, because of some other technical element that's far
                more
                > important. (E.g., akamai caching means my own server load
                balancing stats
                > won't tell the whole story, etc.)
                >
                > Similarly, who needs to know the bit patterns for T1 headers?
                Well, telecom
                > engineers certainly do, but once everything is routed over OC96
                lines
                > subdivided into T3s straight into a data switch, then the little
                details
                > down at the "bottom of the food chain" should be handled as an
                > implementation detail -- not as a factor critical to success that
                would
                > affect decision making at the level a web analyst should be
                working at.
                >
                > Besides -- if you need to know something that you don't already
                know, you
                > can always ask here in the WA Forum. For any given topic, you're
                sure to
                > get at least two conflicting answers, sometimes from the same
                person! ;-)
                >
                > WDave, who thinks the most important IP addresses are on Sand Hill
                Road
                > (in-joke for you Intellectual Property lawyers lurking in the
                crowd)
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Wandering Dave Rhee
                Okay, on that basis, then, I d agree more with Steve. ;-) Knowing the general rule about larger organizations having a class B IP address, and smaller ones
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 19, 2007
                  Okay, on that basis, then, I'd agree more with Steve. ;-) Knowing the
                  general rule about larger organizations having a class B IP address, and
                  smaller ones having a class C can be useful.

                  But you need to place it in context -- no measurement should be a number,
                  but a probability distribution. If you provide an average (of anything --
                  unique daily visitors over the last 30 days, for example), you should also
                  provide the standard deviation, or maybe call it an "average error" so that
                  your business stakeholder will know how much faith to put in that number.
                  And presumably, what kind of confidence (business confidence, not
                  necessarily statistical confidence) to place in it, in terms of investing
                  real money, to bring in real revenue.

                  If you say, "30% of our customers are large organizations," when you really
                  mean, "Given the limitations of IP tracking through our web analytics tool,
                  30% of the customers we're able to track with 85% or better accuracy seem to
                  have Class A or B IP addresses, and so are 65% likely to be larger
                  organizations. The uncertainty is there because smaller organizations may
                  be using a parent company IP range, and thus appear larger than they are,
                  while large organizations may choose to have some of their users visit our
                  site from Class C ranges held by a subsidiary organization," then your are
                  likely to make everyone else in the room confused to the extent that they
                  ignore you, and make their decisions without consulting you in the future.

                  So, Yes, you should know everything relevant about everything relevant, but
                  No, you won't know what you don't need until you've already learned it, and
                  found it useless to date. In general, I believe Everything Is Useful -- you
                  just have to find the right context. And web analysts find themselves in a
                  greater range of contexts (business to technical, end-user to senior
                  management, internal to external, etc.) than many other roles in a given
                  company.

                  But hey, that's just my opinion. I've got plenty of others, too, so if you
                  don't like this one, ask again tomorrow! ;-)

                  WDave

                  On 6/19/07, nevertrustab <patriccc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wow, I didnt really mean it as in-depth as that lol. I guess I
                  > shouldn't have used the word "constructed" (English isnt my first
                  > language).
                  >
                  > Basically what I meant to say is: Does a web analyst have to know
                  > such things about IP addresses as..what is an A-class a B-class a C-
                  > class...that the first 3 octets are assigned to the network and the
                  > 4th to the host (for a c class IP address). More simplistic stuff
                  > like that..
                  >
                  > which might help one notice if its the ip address from a large
                  > organization (A class ip address) or more likely to be from a
                  > private home (c class ip address). Rather less complicated things
                  > like that.
                  >
                  > I was asking this, because that's pretty much what I know about IP
                  > addresses after reading a couple of articles on it and realized most
                  > SEOs (coming from the SEO field) have hardly any clue what an IP
                  > address is how they're "built" (4 octets..a c class being when...
                  > etc.) but just say "links from different c class ip addresses" often
                  > not really knowing what that is, but getting away with it easily,
                  > because for an SEO it doesnt really matter.
                  >
                  > But I assume a web analyst doesn't necessarily have to know that
                  > either? or does she?
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nevertrustab
                  How would it help a company with their decisions if they knew 30% of their clients are likely to be large organizations (at a confidence level of..%)? (just
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 20, 2007
                    How would it help a company with their decisions if they knew 30% of
                    their clients are likely to be large organizations (at a confidence
                    level of..%)? (just curious)

                    --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Wandering Dave Rhee"
                    <wdaveonline@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Okay, on that basis, then, I'd agree more with Steve. ;-)
                    Knowing the
                    > general rule about larger organizations having a class B IP
                    address, and
                    > smaller ones having a class C can be useful.
                    >
                    > But you need to place it in context -- no measurement should be a
                    number,
                    > but a probability distribution. If you provide an average (of
                    anything --
                    > unique daily visitors over the last 30 days, for example), you
                    should also
                    > provide the standard deviation, or maybe call it an "average
                    error" so that
                    > your business stakeholder will know how much faith to put in that
                    number.
                    > And presumably, what kind of confidence (business confidence, not
                    > necessarily statistical confidence) to place in it, in terms of
                    investing
                    > real money, to bring in real revenue.
                    >
                    > If you say, "30% of our customers are large organizations," when
                    you really
                    > mean, "Given the limitations of IP tracking through our web
                    analytics tool,
                    > 30% of the customers we're able to track with 85% or better
                    accuracy seem to
                    > have Class A or B IP addresses, and so are 65% likely to be larger
                    > organizations. The uncertainty is there because smaller
                    organizations may
                    > be using a parent company IP range, and thus appear larger than
                    they are,
                    > while large organizations may choose to have some of their users
                    visit our
                    > site from Class C ranges held by a subsidiary organization," then
                    your are
                    > likely to make everyone else in the room confused to the extent
                    that they
                    > ignore you, and make their decisions without consulting you in the
                    future.
                    >
                    > So, Yes, you should know everything relevant about everything
                    relevant, but
                    > No, you won't know what you don't need until you've already
                    learned it, and
                    > found it useless to date. In general, I believe Everything Is
                    Useful -- you
                    > just have to find the right context. And web analysts find
                    themselves in a
                    > greater range of contexts (business to technical, end-user to
                    senior
                    > management, internal to external, etc.) than many other roles in a
                    given
                    > company.
                    >
                    > But hey, that's just my opinion. I've got plenty of others, too,
                    so if you
                    > don't like this one, ask again tomorrow! ;-)
                    >
                    > WDave
                    >
                    > On 6/19/07, nevertrustab <patriccc@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Wow, I didnt really mean it as in-depth as that lol. I guess I
                    > > shouldn't have used the word "constructed" (English isnt my first
                    > > language).
                    > >
                    > > Basically what I meant to say is: Does a web analyst have to know
                    > > such things about IP addresses as..what is an A-class a B-class
                    a C-
                    > > class...that the first 3 octets are assigned to the network and
                    the
                    > > 4th to the host (for a c class IP address). More simplistic stuff
                    > > like that..
                    > >
                    > > which might help one notice if its the ip address from a large
                    > > organization (A class ip address) or more likely to be from a
                    > > private home (c class ip address). Rather less complicated things
                    > > like that.
                    > >
                    > > I was asking this, because that's pretty much what I know about
                    IP
                    > > addresses after reading a couple of articles on it and realized
                    most
                    > > SEOs (coming from the SEO field) have hardly any clue what an IP
                    > > address is how they're "built" (4 octets..a c class being when...
                    > > etc.) but just say "links from different c class ip addresses"
                    often
                    > > not really knowing what that is, but getting away with it easily,
                    > > because for an SEO it doesnt really matter.
                    > >
                    > > But I assume a web analyst doesn't necessarily have to know that
                    > > either? or does she?
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Stephen Turner
                    Class B and C blocks haven t really existed for some time now. Organisations are now allocated intermediate-sized blocks. You should think in terms of things
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 20, 2007
                      Class B and C blocks haven't really existed for some time now.
                      Organisations are now allocated intermediate-sized blocks. You should
                      think in terms of things like /23 (formerly two consecutive C blocks)
                      or /25 (half a C block) instead. And if you don't know what all that
                      means, don't worry!

                      --
                      Stephen Turner
                      CTO, ClickTracks http://www.clicktracks.com/
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.