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Re: [webanalytics] Re: tagging and log analysis

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  • Matt Belkin
    Of course, key problems with this picture include scaleability, time to market, platform cost, and maintenance burden. You cannot scale such an environment
    Message 1 of 44 , Jan 7, 2005
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      Of course, key problems with this picture include scaleability, time to market, platform cost, and maintenance burden. You cannot scale such an environment based a 1:1 data - you either need to limit your data set thru sampling, or stick with small data populations.  If someone disagrees, I would honestly like to hear a case study - and feel free to not mention the vendor.  I'm genuinely interested in an academic discussion of value and ROI for this approach.
       
      - Matt Belkin
      Omniture

      jimmacintyreiv <jim@...> wrote:


      Visual Sciences supports:

      - Client-side (real-time page and ad tags)

      - Server-side (real-time server calls/http requests)

      - Client and Server-side (real-time)

      ----- in addition . . .

      - Continuous or batch loading from existing database/datawarehouse

      - Continuous or batch loading of log files (typically used to load 
      historical server-side data and sometimes used to load log files of
      page tag activity being transitioned out of a prior vendor's
      outsourced service into our solution).

      -----

      All of these options are offered by Visual Sciences on an in-house
      (software) or outsourced (service) basis.

      -----

      Client-side and server-side measurements/data can be acquired
      together, both in real-time.  Page and Ad Tags can be used to measure
      what can only be measured on the client-side and our server-side
      capability can be used to measure what can only be measured on the
      server-side.

      Visual Sciences' offering provides a broad facility and specific
      logic to manage and transform the any collected data including the
      ability to eliminate any double counting due to using both client-
      side and server-side collection.  In addition this generalized
      capability/facility/logic allows Visual Sciences to take as input the
      data produced by predecessor vendor systems. This logic is generally
      broad enough to allow us to configure our metrics and reports to
      match the methods used by another vendor in the past, if such is
      desirable.

      Maybe most importantly this type of hybrid model prevents the large
      amounts of data loss that can occur because pages have not been
      properly tagged or tagged at all, providing a safety net if someone
      forgets to tag certain pages.  Not unimportantly it also allows a
      company to have the best of what can be done with tags and what can
      be done with server-side data, both at the same time, using one
      system.

      This solution allows a company to run its own Page Tag "service" and
      eliminate the need to pay for Page Tag based data acquisition on a
      pay per "server call" or "page view" basis, while still collecting
      other types of http request information you might need from the
      server-side (e.g. errors, downloads, other types of http requests).

      -----
      The idea that the options that exist for sites are Page Tag vs. Log
      Files is long outdated. 
      -----

      Many of the users of Visual Sciences products find that client-side
      and server-side measurement are both necessary.  They are both
      commonly applied, either together or apart, in real-time, on an in-
      house (software) or outsourced (service) basis. 

      Jim MacIntyre
      Visual Sciences
      _____________________

      --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Akin Arikan" <akin@s...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Most offerings with "hybrid data collection" appear to be "either,
      or"
      > solutions. I.e. within the same software you can have one silo of
      > reports where you use page tags and another silo where you use logs.
      > Incorporating both tags and logs into the same silo, i.e. the same
      > report, requires some logic that avoids double counting page
      requests.
      >
      > Personally, I only know of two tools that have this kind of logic.
      One
      > is NetTracker. When using both tags and logs for the same report
      silo,
      > its logic uses logs for the main Web site's data collection and uses
      > tags for 1. remote site portions that are not in the logs 2. events
      > within a page such as scrolling down, changing text fields, etc. So
      the
      > combination serves a more complete picture of the visitor behavior.
      >
      > The other tool that has built-in logic is Urchin, I believe. Its UTM
      > logic takes a different angle. But I am not exactly sure how.
      > A
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Fred Kuu [mailto:fkuu325@y...]
      > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 12:23 PM
      > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [webanalytics] Re: tagging and log analysis
      >
      >
      >
      > I think Visual Sciences also belongs in this list.  
      >
      > However, I would be interested in knowing exactly which of these
      vendors
      > do integrate the log data with the page tagging data, and how they
      go
      > about doing so.  Or do most vendors just keep the data in separate
      > silos?
      >
      >
      > -Fred Kuu
      >
      >
      > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <holowebs@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > If I'm not mistaken, I think IBM's SurfAid can do this as well...
      > >
      > > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Mason" <neil@a...>
      wrote:
      > > > In terms of vendors that offer the capability to combine logfile
      > > and page
      > > > tagging data in a single deployment, I know that Site
      > > Intelligence's VBIS
      > > > system can offer this. There are, of course, a number of vendors
      > > who are
      > > > "data collection" neutral such as Webtrends, NetGenesis and
      > > WebAbacus but
      > > > I'm not sure of their ability to combine both sources, which I
      > > think what
      > > > you were asking.
      > > >
      > > > 
      > > >
      > > > Regards
      > > >
      > > > 
      > > >
      > > > Neil
      > > >
      > > > 
      > > >
      > > >   _____
      > > >
      > > > From: brian@o... [mailto:brian@o...]
      > > > Sent: 06 January 2005 14:33
      > > > To: webanalytics@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [webanalytics] tagging and log analysis
      > > >
      > > > 
      > > >
      > > > No I don't wish to start a debate on which is better...
      > > >
      > > > I just wish to get an idea of the number of vendors that offer
      both
      > > > as a combined solution i.e. not separate services.
      > > >
      > > > Are their many vendors doing this, or is it a simple either or
      > > > split?
      > > >
      > > > Best regards, Brian
      > > >
      > > > =============================================================
      > > > Omega Digital Media Ltd
      > > >
      > > >      I N T E G R A T E D ~ W E B ~ S O L U T I O N S
      > > >
      > > > Phone: +44 (0)1444 410202
      > > > Fax:   +44 (0)1444 456814
      > > >
      > > > http://www.omegadm.co.uk
      > > > =============================================================
      > > > Cuckfield House, High Street, Cuckfield, West Sussex RH17 5EL
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------------
      > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
      > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
      > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
      > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >   _____
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > > *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
      > > >  
      > > > *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
      > > subject=Unsubscribe>
      > > >  
      > > > *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------------
      > Web Metrics Discussion Group
      > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
      > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
      > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links









      ---------------------------------------
      Web Metrics Discussion Group
      Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
      Author, Web Analytics Demystified
      http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com


    • Brady Fox
      Jim, Sorry about that. I should have phrased my post differently. I hope you continue to take the high ground and stick around. On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:53:17
      Message 44 of 44 , Jan 10, 2005
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        Jim,

        Sorry about that. I should have phrased my post differently. I hope
        you continue to take the high ground and stick around.



        On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:53:17 -0000, jimmacintyreiv
        <jim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Brady,
        >
        > To be clear.
        >
        > Matt Belkin represents Omniture as their Vice President of Best
        > Practices.
        >
        > I, Jim MacIntyre represent Visual Sciences and Visual Sciences is not
        > taking any pot shots at anyone.
        >
        > Visual Sciences would much like to participate here without being
        > attacked and insulted by Matt Belkin and Omniture, but as you can see
        > our ability to do that is, at least at the present, is seriously in
        > question.
        >
        > Jim MacIntyre
        > Visual Sciences
        >
        >
        > --- In webanalytics@yahoogroups.com, Brady Fox <bradyfox@g...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Enough pot shots between Matt Belkin and Visual Sciences already.
        > Not
        > > interesting. Go duke it out in a parking lot somewhere.
        > >
        > >
        > > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:07:53 -0800 (PST), Matt Belkin <mbelkin@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > > Brian, sorry you were confused. My question was not about
        > implementation at
        > > > all.
        > > >
        > > > Throughout this discussion, I have been interested in someone
        > sharing a case
        > > > study on Web measurement success with hybrid solutions. Having
        > implemented
        > > > numerous Web measurement solutions at Fortune 1000 companies,
        > I've been
        > > > challenged to understand the strategic value proposition of hybrid
        > > > solutions. Yes, I understand the underlying technology concepts,
        > but I do
        > > > not see the cost/benefit justification. And no, this isn't about
        > the
        > > > company I work for - so do not make it a vendor issue. My
        > interest is
        > > > purely in understanding how this has driven business success -
        > period.
        > > >
        > > > Can someone provide this? Just one example of a Fortune 1000
        > company that
        > > > has done this successfully and the ROI? I sincerely believe
        > everyone in
        > > > this forum would benefit. And please, I've read more than a dozen
        > > > explanations for why this works in theory, and even endured some
        > misguided
        > > > comments from Jim at Invisible Sciences, but have yet to see one
        > case study.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Brian Clifton <brian@o...> wrote:
        > > > Where do you get those statistics from?
        > > >
        > > > The hybrid method we use (from Urchin), simply augments logfile
        > data with
        > > > client side data - so the technology is already there. As we are
        > web
        > > > developers, we are usually responsible for the clients web server
        > > > management (linux/apache). So we know the client has a suitable
        > setup i.e.
        > > > we know the machine architecture, data structure, logfile
        > rotation etc.
        > > > So, to install the WA we therefore:
        > > >
        > > > Install Urchin software, ~5 mins
        > > > Location of logfiles, ~2 mins
        > > > Setup page tagging, ~20 mins
        > > > Run and verify reports on test data, ~10 mins
        > > >
        > > > The test data is usually a small sample set of data from the
        > client's web
        > > > site that we have manaually verified.
        > > >
        > > > For page tagging on apache - see mod_layout from tangent.org
        > > >
        > > > Of course we are in a priveledged position of knowing the
        > client's server
        > > > setup, web site structure and their goals/objectives. But I
        > understood
        > > > your comments to be about actually implementing a WA solution, not
        > > > understanding the client's online business objectives
        > (independent of WA
        > > > solution).
        > > >
        > > > Also, of course, there is fine tuning to be done and clients
        > often change
        > > > their goals/objectives once they see the stats, but then who
        > doesn't?
        > > >
        > > > Hardly worth a patent...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > Brian, I find it fascinating that you've created a web
        > measurement
        > > > > solution in 30 minutes to parse NASA-sized data sets and
        > address the
        > > > > issues I've raised. It's a problem that no solution provider
        > in the
        > > > > history of web analytics has been able to accomplish, and one
        > has
        > > > > taken Oracle over 10 years and over 4,000 engineers to figure
        > out on
        > > > > the database-side. Did you patent your approach? I would.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > =============================================================
        >
        > > > Omega Digital Media Ltd
        > > >
        > > > I N T E G R A T E D ~ W E B ~ S O L U T I O N S
        > > >
        > > > Phone: +44 (0)1444 410202
        > > > Fax: +44 (0)1444 456814
        > > >
        > > > http://www.omegadm.co.uk
        > > > =============================================================
        > > > Cuckfield House, High Street, Cuckfield, West Sussex RH17 5EL
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------------
        > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------------
        > > > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > > > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > > > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > > > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webanalytics/
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > webanalytics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------------
        > Web Metrics Discussion Group
        > Moderated by Eric T. Peterson
        > Author, Web Analytics Demystified
        > http://www.webanalyticsdemystified.com
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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