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Re: Info about Norton big 4 from new group member

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  • Rik
    Hello Mark, The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 3, 2009
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      Hello Mark,

      The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin. WD engines had improved combustion chambers and whilst the bottom end is the same, top end parts are not interchangeable.

      I have a quantity of copies from the Norton factory ledgers and got lucky with this one because the numbers are not sequential so it's a needle in a haystack job to find anything.

      Engine no. 86153 was delivered on 6th April 1938 and fitted to Model 1 (Big 4) frame number 91403.

      Gearbox no. 19875

      Fuel tank no. 1250

      Wheels Chromed / black / red

      Forks no.53084

      Factory tester - Johnson

      Delivered to - Rowland Smith

      I have a note that Rowland Smith was a dealer in Middlesex but don't know any more.

      All WD Big 4s were sidecar wheel drive outfits and the frame that you have is from a wartime WD 16H contract and differs in a number of aspects such as the rear wheel clamping.

      Frame number W18346 was delivered under contract C.6653. Although the factory ledgers are now lost, the first delivery under this contract, W18000 took place to the Royal Ordnance Corps on 7th August 1940 so your frame would have been delivered later in the month.

      You face a number of choices in restoring your machine if you wish to have a bike that looks as original. The WD16Hs had a 1937 pattern engine so yours does look different. That said, the extra torque is welcome, especially if you live in a hilly area.

      WD16H engines are not that expensive and if your Big 4 needs a rebuild anyway, you'll find parts more easily for the 500.

      As John has suggested, getting in touch with Rob van den Brink would be a good idea as he has a lot of detailed information which is difficult to display on a website.

      God luck with your project. Any chance of some pictures ?

      Rik







      --- In wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com, "composalt" <composalt@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello to everyone in the group.
      >
      > I have just joined the group as I have begun restoring what I believe is an ex WD Norton big 4 that I have had for some time and I'm hoping the group will be able to help me in dating the machine as well as other restoration questions that will undoubtedly crop up as I proceed.
      >
      > The numbers it has are:
      >
      > Engine No: 86153 and 82/120
      >
      > The frame has three sets of numbers!
      >
      > The original number by the headstock is 38107 (I think, it's hard to see)
      > This has been over stamped with the number: 36713
      >
      > And it has a WD No: on the nearside petrol tank mounting lug of: W18346
      >
      > Can anyone tell me what year the frame and engine are? I don't expect they will match as I understand the engines and frames of these machines got mixed up when they were repaired and serviced throughout the war!
      >
      > Any help from the group would be appreciated.
      >
      > Regards, Mark.
      >
    • Mark Compton
      Hello Rik sorry to take so long replying, I ve been away. Thanks very much for the information on my Norton frame and engine numbers, I thought the parts were
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 11, 2009
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        Hello Rik
        sorry to take so long replying, I've been away.
        Thanks very much for the information on my Norton frame and engine numbers, I thought the parts were from
        different sources and years but it's good to get that confirmation and know what year the frame and engine are.
        It will still make a nice bike even its not all original.
        I will take some photos and put them up soon - though there's not much to see at the moment as its all in bits!
        and I will get in touch with Rob as you suggested.
        The bike is pretty much complete but I do need mudguards for it and possibly a petrol tank as the tank I have is very rusty
        inside and may be beyond repair, so if you know of any for sale I would be interested.
        Are there any WD bike meets around the country? I live in Milton Keynes and if there are any on in my area it would be good to come along and meet some fellow enthusiasts.

        Regards, Mark


        From: Rik <commando16h@...>
        To: wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, 3 July, 2009 21:41:42
        Subject: [wdmotorcycles] Re: Info about Norton big 4 from new group member

        Hello Mark,

        The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin. WD engines had improved combustion chambers and whilst the bottom end is the same, top end parts are not interchangeable.

        I have a quantity of copies from the Norton factory ledgers and got lucky with this one because the numbers are not sequential so it's a needle in a haystack job to find anything.

        Engine no. 86153 was delivered on 6th April 1938 and fitted to Model 1 (Big 4) frame number 91403.

        Gearbox no. 19875

        Fuel tank no. 1250

        Wheels Chromed / black / red

        Forks no.53084

        Factory tester - Johnson

        Delivered to - Rowland Smith

        I have a note that Rowland Smith was a dealer in Middlesex but don't know any more.

        All WD Big 4s were sidecar wheel drive outfits and the frame that you have is from a wartime WD 16H contract and differs in a number of aspects such as the rear wheel clamping..

        Frame number W18346 was delivered under contract C.6653. Although the factory ledgers are now lost, the first delivery under this contract, W18000 took place to the Royal Ordnance Corps on 7th August 1940 so your frame would have been delivered later in the month.

        You face a number of choices in restoring your machine if you wish to have a bike that looks as original. The WD16Hs had a 1937 pattern engine so yours does look different. That said, the extra torque is welcome, especially if you live in a hilly area.

        WD16H engines are not that expensive and if your Big 4 needs a rebuild anyway, you'll find parts more easily for the 500.

        As John has suggested, getting in touch with Rob van den Brink would be a good idea as he has a lot of detailed information which is difficult to display on a website.

        God luck with your project. Any chance of some pictures ?

        Rik

        --- In wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com, "composalt" <composalt@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > Hello to everyone in the group.
        >
        > I have just joined the group as I have begun restoring what I believe is an ex WD Norton big 4 that I have had for some time and I'm hoping the group will be able to help me in dating the machine as well as other restoration questions that will undoubtedly crop up as I proceed.
        >
        > The numbers it has are:
        >
        > Engine No: 86153 and 82/120
        >
        > The frame has three sets of numbers!
        >
        > The original number by the headstock is 38107 (I think, it's hard to see)
        > This has been over stamped with the number: 36713
        >
        > And it has a WD No: on the nearside petrol tank mounting lug of: W18346
        >
        > Can anyone tell me what year the frame and engine are? I don't expect they will match as I understand the engines and frames of these machines got mixed up when they were repaired and serviced throughout the war!
        >
        > Any help from the group would be appreciated.
        >
        > Regards, Mark.
        >


      • matchlesswdg3
        Mark, I don t know of ant specialist WD bike meets but if you keep your eye on this site, we do get together for various events and there is a sort of
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 13, 2009
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          Mark,

          I don't know of ant specialist WD bike meets but if you keep your eye on this site, we do get together for various events and there is a sort of unofficial meet at the Kempton Park bike jumble events which can be a good source of bits. From July 22 to July 26th, there is the huge War & Peace show in Kent and while the motorcycles are not a feature, there ARE lots of them among the tanks and trucks and there are some dealers with motorcycle bits, though not much of that, it has to be said. A reccommended day out. I am going, but just with the Landie this year. Advertising, say in Old Bike Mart can assist you winkle out bits - try it. Best of luck with the project. Ferg.

          --- In wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com, Mark Compton <composalt@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Rik
          > sorry to take so long replying, I've been away.
          > Thanks very much for the information on my Norton frame and engine numbers, I thought the parts were from
          > different sources and years but it's good to get that confirmation and know what year the frame and engine are.
          > It will still make a nice bike even its not all original.
          > I will take some photos and put them up soon - though there's not much to see at the moment as its all in bits!
          > and I will get in touch with Rob as you suggested.
          > The bike is pretty much complete but I do need mudguards for it and possibly a petrol tank as the tank I have is very rusty
          > inside and may be beyond repair, so if you know of any for sale I would be interested.
          > Are there any WD bike meets around the country? I live in Milton Keynes and if there are any on in my area it would be good to come along and meet some fellow enthusiasts.
          >
          > Regards, Mark
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Rik <commando16h@...>
          > To: wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, 3 July, 2009 21:41:42
          > Subject: [wdmotorcycles] Re: Info about Norton big 4 from new group member
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello Mark,
          >
          > The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin. WD engines had improved combustion chambers and whilst the bottom end is the same, top end parts are not interchangeable.
          >
          > I have a quantity of copies from the Norton factory ledgers and got lucky with this one because the numbers are not sequential so it's a needle in a haystack job to find anything.
          >
          > Engine no. 86153 was delivered on 6th April 1938 and fitted to Model 1 (Big 4) frame number 91403.
          >
          > Gearbox no. 19875
          >
          > Fuel tank no. 1250
          >
          > Wheels Chromed / black / red
          >
          > Forks no.53084
          >
          > Factory tester - Johnson
          >
          > Delivered to - Rowland Smith
          >
          > I have a note that Rowland Smith was a dealer in Middlesex but don't know any more.
          >
          > All WD Big 4s were sidecar wheel drive outfits and the frame that you have is from a wartime WD 16H contract and differs in a number of aspects such as the rear wheel clamping.
          >
          > Frame number W18346 was delivered under contract C.6653. Although the factory ledgers are now lost, the first delivery under this contract, W18000 took place to the Royal Ordnance Corps on 7th August 1940 so your frame would have been delivered later in the month.
          >
          > You face a number of choices in restoring your machine if you wish to have a bike that looks as original. The WD16Hs had a 1937 pattern engine so yours does look different. That said, the extra torque is welcome, especially if you live in a hilly area.
          >
          > WD16H engines are not that expensive and if your Big 4 needs a rebuild anyway, you'll find parts more easily for the 500.
          >
          > As John has suggested, getting in touch with Rob van den Brink would be a good idea as he has a lot of detailed information which is difficult to display on a website.
          >
          > God luck with your project. Any chance of some pictures ?
          >
          > Rik
          >
          > --- In wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com, "composalt" <composalt@ ..> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello to everyone in the group.
          > >
          > > I have just joined the group as I have begun restoring what I believe is an ex WD Norton big 4 that I have had for some time and I'm hoping the group will be able to help me in dating the machine as well as other restoration questions that will undoubtedly crop up as I proceed.
          > >
          > > The numbers it has are:
          > >
          > > Engine No: 86153 and 82/120
          > >
          > > The frame has three sets of numbers!
          > >
          > > The original number by the headstock is 38107 (I think, it's hard to see)
          > > This has been over stamped with the number: 36713
          > >
          > > And it has a WD No: on the nearside petrol tank mounting lug of: W18346
          > >
          > > Can anyone tell me what year the frame and engine are? I don't expect they will match as I understand the engines and frames of these machines got mixed up when they were repaired and serviced throughout the war!
          > >
          > > Any help from the group would be appreciated.
          > >
          > > Regards, Mark.
          > >
          >
        • matchlesswdg3
          Mark, I meant to add that I have found being a member of the appropriate Owners Club is a big help - they usually have a club mag. or a web site (or both)
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 16, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Mark, I meant to add that I have found being a member of the appropriate Owners Club is a big help - they usually have a club mag. or a web site (or both) where you can advertise for bits - and get advice. I had a lot of help with my WDG3L via AMOC. Ferg

            --- In wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com, Mark Compton <composalt@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Rik
            > sorry to take so long replying, I've been away.
            > Thanks very much for the information on my Norton frame and engine numbers, I thought the parts were from
            > different sources and years but it's good to get that confirmation and know what year the frame and engine are.
            > It will still make a nice bike even its not all original.
            > I will take some photos and put them up soon - though there's not much to see at the moment as its all in bits!
            > and I will get in touch with Rob as you suggested.
            > The bike is pretty much complete but I do need mudguards for it and possibly a petrol tank as the tank I have is very rusty
            > inside and may be beyond repair, so if you know of any for sale I would be interested.
            > Are there any WD bike meets around the country? I live in Milton Keynes and if there are any on in my area it would be good to come along and meet some fellow enthusiasts.
            >
            > Regards, Mark
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Rik <commando16h@...>
            > To: wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, 3 July, 2009 21:41:42
            > Subject: [wdmotorcycles] Re: Info about Norton big 4 from new group member
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Mark,
            >
            > The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin. WD engines had improved combustion chambers and whilst the bottom end is the same, top end parts are not interchangeable.
            >
            > I have a quantity of copies from the Norton factory ledgers and got lucky with this one because the numbers are not sequential so it's a needle in a haystack job to find anything.
            >
            > Engine no. 86153 was delivered on 6th April 1938 and fitted to Model 1 (Big 4) frame number 91403.
            >
            > Gearbox no. 19875
            >
            > Fuel tank no. 1250
            >
            > Wheels Chromed / black / red
            >
            > Forks no.53084
            >
            > Factory tester - Johnson
            >
            > Delivered to - Rowland Smith
            >
            > I have a note that Rowland Smith was a dealer in Middlesex but don't know any more.
            >
            > All WD Big 4s were sidecar wheel drive outfits and the frame that you have is from a wartime WD 16H contract and differs in a number of aspects such as the rear wheel clamping.
            >
            > Frame number W18346 was delivered under contract C.6653. Although the factory ledgers are now lost, the first delivery under this contract, W18000 took place to the Royal Ordnance Corps on 7th August 1940 so your frame would have been delivered later in the month.
            >
            > You face a number of choices in restoring your machine if you wish to have a bike that looks as original. The WD16Hs had a 1937 pattern engine so yours does look different. That said, the extra torque is welcome, especially if you live in a hilly area.
            >
            > WD16H engines are not that expensive and if your Big 4 needs a rebuild anyway, you'll find parts more easily for the 500.
            >
            > As John has suggested, getting in touch with Rob van den Brink would be a good idea as he has a lot of detailed information which is difficult to display on a website.
            >
            > God luck with your project. Any chance of some pictures ?
            >
            > Rik
            >
            > --- In wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com, "composalt" <composalt@ ..> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello to everyone in the group.
            > >
            > > I have just joined the group as I have begun restoring what I believe is an ex WD Norton big 4 that I have had for some time and I'm hoping the group will be able to help me in dating the machine as well as other restoration questions that will undoubtedly crop up as I proceed.
            > >
            > > The numbers it has are:
            > >
            > > Engine No: 86153 and 82/120
            > >
            > > The frame has three sets of numbers!
            > >
            > > The original number by the headstock is 38107 (I think, it's hard to see)
            > > This has been over stamped with the number: 36713
            > >
            > > And it has a WD No: on the nearside petrol tank mounting lug of: W18346
            > >
            > > Can anyone tell me what year the frame and engine are? I don't expect they will match as I understand the engines and frames of these machines got mixed up when they were repaired and serviced throughout the war!
            > >
            > > Any help from the group would be appreciated.
            > >
            > > Regards, Mark.
            > >
            >
          • Mark Compton
            Hello Ferg and everyone, Thanks for that advice regarding joining the club, I ll do that. I m attaching a couple of photos of a 16H top yoke that came with my
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 16, 2009
            Hello Ferg and everyone,

            Thanks for that advice regarding joining the club, I'll do that.
            I'm attaching a couple of photos' of a 16H top yoke that came with my WD Norton.
            This one has a large diameter clamping arrangement for the handlebars so I am assuming there
            is some sort of split bush? - possibly rubber that goes around the bars to hold them tight in the clamp,
            Is this a later type top yoke replacing the more usual one that uses two clips to hold the bars to the yoke or is it for a different
            model Norton. Can you or anyone enlighten me on this please. Also would it have used 7/8th or 1 inch bars ?

            Thanks for your help.

            Mark



            From: matchlesswdg3 <fergus.anckorn@...>
            To: wdmotorcycles@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, 16 July, 2009 10:01:26
            Subject: [wdmotorcycles] Re: Reply to Rik about Norton big 4 from new group member

             

            Mark, I meant to add that I have found being a member of the appropriate Owners Club is a big help - they usually have a club mag. or a web site (or both) where you can advertise for bits - and get advice. I had a lot of help with my WDG3L via AMOC. Ferg

            --- In wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com, Mark Compton <composalt@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Rik
            > sorry to take so long replying, I've been away.
            > Thanks very much for the information on my Norton frame and engine numbers, I thought the parts were from
            > different sources and years but it's good to get that confirmation and know what year the frame and engine are.
            > It will still make a nice bike even its not all original.
            > I will take some photos and put them up soon - though there's not much to see at the moment as its all in bits!
            > and I will get in touch with Rob as you suggested.
            > The bike is pretty much complete but I do need mudguards for it and possibly a petrol tank as the tank I have is very rusty
            > inside and may be beyond repair, so if you know of any for sale I would be interested.
            > Are there any WD bike meets around the country? I live in Milton Keynes and if there are any on in my area it would be good to come along and meet some fellow enthusiasts.
            >
            > Regards, Mark
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: Rik <commando16h@ ...>
            > To: wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Friday, 3 July, 2009 21:41:42
            > Subject: [wdmotorcycles] Re: Info about Norton big 4 from new group member
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Mark,
            >
            > The machine that you have has parts from various sources and in fact the engine, although of the similar 1938 pattern is not actually of WD origin. WD engines had improved combustion chambers and whilst the bottom end is the same, top end parts are not interchangeable.
            >
            > I have a quantity of copies from the Norton factory ledgers and got lucky with this one because the numbers are not sequential so it's a needle in a haystack job to find anything.
            >
            > Engine no. 86153 was delivered on 6th April 1938 and fitted to Model 1 (Big 4) frame number 91403.
            >
            > Gearbox no. 19875
            >
            > Fuel tank no. 1250
            >
            > Wheels Chromed / black / red
            >
            > Forks no.53084
            >
            > Factory tester - Johnson
            >
            > Delivered to - Rowland Smith
            >
            > I have a note that Rowland Smith was a dealer in Middlesex but don't know any more.
            >
            > All WD Big 4s were sidecar wheel drive outfits and the frame that you have is from a wartime WD 16H contract and differs in a number of aspects such as the rear wheel clamping.
            >
            > Frame number W18346 was delivered under contract C.6653. Although the factory ledgers are now lost, the first delivery under this contract, W18000 took place to the Royal Ordnance Corps on 7th August 1940 so your frame would have been delivered later in the month.
            >
            > You face a number of choices in restoring your machine if you wish to have a bike that looks as original. The WD16Hs had a 1937 pattern engine so yours does look different. That said, the extra torque is welcome, especially if you live in a hilly area.
            >
            > WD16H engines are not that expensive and if your Big 4 needs a rebuild anyway, you'll find parts more easily for the 500.
            >
            > As John has suggested, getting in touch with Rob van den Brink would be a good idea as he has a lot of detailed information which is difficult to display on a website.
            >
            > God luck with your project. Any chance of some pictures ?
            >
            > Rik
            >
            > --- In wdmotorcycles@ yahoogroups. com, "composalt" <composalt@ ..> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello to everyone in the group.
            > >
            > > I have just joined the group as I have begun restoring what I believe is an ex WD Norton big 4 that I have had for some time and I'm hoping the group will be able to help me in dating the machine as well as other restoration questions that will undoubtedly crop up as I proceed.
            > >
            > > The numbers it has are:
            > >
            > > Engine No: 86153 and 82/120
            > >
            > > The frame has three sets of numbers!
            > >
            > > The original number by the headstock is 38107 (I think, it's hard to see)
            > > This has been over stamped with the number: 36713
            > >
            > > And it has a WD No: on the nearside petrol tank mounting lug of: W18346
            > >
            > > Can anyone tell me what year the frame and engine are? I don't expect they will match as I understand the engines and frames of these machines got mixed up when they were repaired and serviced throughout the war!
            > >
            > > Any help from the group would be appreciated.
            > >
            > > Regards, Mark.
            > >
            >


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