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[WCS] Re: Importing DEM in one bit

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  • phutgal
    ... does the Import Wizard ... every case _except_ ... providing -- you re ... interface) to view our ... were trying to get to ... your application. You d ...
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2006
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      --- In wcsml@yahoogroups.com, Chris 'Xenon' Hanson <xenon@...> wrote:
      >
      > phutgal wrote:
      > > Once you get to the "Import Now" or "Change Settings" page, you need
      > > to hit Change
      > >> Settings and move on a few pages. You'll find a page with settings
      > > for how many tiles wide
      > >> and high you want the resulting data. Set them both to 1.
      > > The Import wizard does not give me a "Change Settings" option. I am
      > > using WCS not VNS, maybe this is the problem.
      >
      > Ok. Exactly what format are you importing again? And, what tabs
      does the Import Wizard
      > show you, in order, when you go to import this file?
      >
      > > I've looked at the samples on the WCS site. The interface seems a bit
      > > awkward.
      >
      > The Interface? To what? What samples are you referring to. In
      every case _except_
      > NatureView Express, the interface has nothing to do with what SX is
      providing -- you're
      > not using our viewer -- you're using someone else's viewer (and its
      interface) to view our
      > data.
      >
      > In the case of NVE, yes, that's our interface. But I thought you
      were trying to get to
      > VRML, in which case NVE and our interface have nothing to do with
      your application. You'd
      > (presumably) be using our VRML scene in some viewer of your choosing
      with its interface,
      > or possibly one you devise.
      >
      > > I am trying to create real time enviroments for the major
      > > Himalayan peaks.
      >
      > Ok. Give us more requirements? Does it have to run in a web
      browser? Is it something
      > that is downloaded, or distributed on CD, or what?


      Yes it is to run in a web browser.


      Sorry, I seem to have confused the issues here.

      Issue 1. Importing DEM's in one bit. I am using USGS ascii DEM's
      exported from 3DEM. Using the Import Wizard I get the following:
      1. "Override" - I click Next, only other option is Cancel, I get:
      2. "Load As" - options: next, back and Cancel. Radio button "DEM" is
      selected. I click next. I get:
      3. "Output file type and name" options: Back, Import and Cancel. I
      click Import and get the DEM divided into 16 tiles.

      Nowhere do I get "change settings" although I have seen this for other
      file types.

      The Interface thing was another issue. I am considering getting Scene
      Express, and the NVE samples on your web page have a rather small
      interface.(at 1600 x 1200)The VRML is fine, but I need to control the
      polygon count and that is why I want to get the DEM into Lightwave and
      do the VRML there.

      I am happy with the SX options I just need to make a decision, but if
      anyone knows how I can get this DEM in in one piece I would be
      thankful. In the meantime I will explore other options.

      Thanks again for your time
      Tony Robinson.
    • Adam Hauldren
      ... You are correct in your reporting of the way in which the Import Wizard handles USGS ASCII DEMs. There is no option to Change Settings Are you using WCS
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2006
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        > Issue 1. Importing DEM's in one bit. I am using USGS
        > ascii DEM's exported from 3DEM. Using the Import Wizard
        > I get the following: 1. "Override" - I click Next, only
        > other option is Cancel, I get: 2. "Load As" - options:
        > next, back and Cancel. Radio button "DEM" is selected.
        > I click next. I get: 3. "Output file type and name"
        > options: Back, Import and Cancel. I click Import and get
        > the DEM divided into 16 tiles.
        >
        > Nowhere do I get "change settings" although I have seen this
        > for other file types.

        You are correct in your reporting of the way in which the Import Wizard
        handles USGS ASCII DEMs. There is no option to "Change Settings"

        Are you using WCS or VNS, Tony?
        VNS has a DEM Merger that would allow you to merge the 16 tiles back
        into 1 tile.

        I haven't used 3DEM in years - it has no tools that I don't have in
        other software products that I use more frequently.
        However, if you are determined to use Lightwave to create your VRML
        output, you may want to download and take a look at Accutrans3D:
        http://www.micromouse.ca

        This software will allow you to load your USGS DEMs natively, then
        output to Lightwave directly. It has tools for basic editing (cropping,
        rotating, smoothing, resampling etc) of the DEM, as well as a resampling
        option during the output process which allows you to define the number
        of polygons to be exported to your Lightwave object. Both LWO and LWO2
        (post-LW6) object formats are supported.

        As it happens, it can also export directly to VRML (v1 and v2), thus
        allowing you to potentially bypass Lightwave altogether. Add to this
        it's ability to convert between a wide range of 3D object formats, and
        it is an extemely useful tool. At US$20 (CAD$25) for the registered
        version it is very affordable too. Those users who were once
        Amiga-owners may remember it as originating on that platform...

        > The Interface thing was another issue. I am considering
        > getting Scene Express, and the NVE samples on your web
        > page have a rather small interface.(at 1600 x 1200)The
        > VRML is fine, but I need to control the polygon count
        > and that is why I want to get the DEM into Lightwave
        > and do the VRML there.

        SX allows control over the VRML resolution during export, so this is not
        a valid issue.

        > I am happy with the SX options I just need to make a
        > decision, but if anyone knows how I can get this DEM
        > in in one piece I would be thankful.

        I would use a different import format in the first place.
        3DEM allows export to .TER format (Terragen terrain). During Import to
        WCS or VNS, this format gives you the option to control the number of
        tiles EW and NS - set these each to 1 to make sure that your imported
        DEM comes in as 1 tile.

        > In the meantime I will explore other options.

        Given the above, there should be few "other options" to explore ;)

        Regards

        Adam
      • Chris 'Xenon' Hanson
        ... Ok. Well, NVE isn t a web browser tool, so it really isn t even in consideration. I haven t ever heard anyone concerned about the small size of the UI
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2006
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          phutgal wrote:
          > Yes it is to run in a web browser.
          > Sorry, I seem to have confused the issues here.
          > The Interface thing was another issue. I am considering getting Scene
          > Express, and the NVE samples on your web page have a rather small
          > interface.(at 1600 x 1200)

          Ok. Well, NVE isn't a web browser tool, so it really isn't even in consideration. I
          haven't ever heard anyone concerned about the small size of the UI windows at 1600x1200 in
          NVE -- it may be that most people aren't running production visualization machines at that
          high of res. Massive resolution may look good, but can often strain the underlying
          graphics hardware, where a lower resolution would look fine and leave more graphics
          resources available for greater detail and framerate.

          If it were a critical concern, we could look at having a UI-size-doubler or something
          in NVE, but honestly no one has ever asked about it before. Regardless, it sounds like
          VRML is your chosen option anyway.

          > The VRML is fine, but I need to control the
          > polygon count and that is why I want to get the DEM into Lightwave and
          > do the VRML there.

          As Adam points out, you have control over VRML LOD in Scene Express export.

          > Issue 1. Importing DEM's in one bit. I am using USGS ascii DEM's
          > exported from 3DEM. Using the Import Wizard I get the following:
          > 1. "Override" - I click Next, only other option is Cancel, I get:
          > 2. "Load As" - options: next, back and Cancel. Radio button "DEM" is
          > selected. I click next. I get:
          > 3. "Output file type and name" options: Back, Import and Cancel. I
          > click Import and get the DEM divided into 16 tiles.
          > Nowhere do I get "change settings" although I have seen this for other
          > file types.

          Ok, yes. That particular file type doesn't have the more extensive changeable options
          that others do, due to some limitations of the format itself. It's a really poor file
          format, actually. Adam suggested using Terragen export from 3DEM, which would work, but
          the real question is -- what format was the data originally, before it went into 3DEM?
          And, what are you doing to it in 3DEM -- why not just import the original data straight
          into WCS? Employing a number of (possibly unnecessary) tools along your pipeline can often
          degrade the data and make your workflow much more complex than it needs to be.

          > Thanks again for your time
          > Tony Robinson.

          --
          Chris 'Xenon' Hanson | Xenon @ 3D Nature | http://www.3DNature.com/
          "I set the wheels in motion, turn up all the machines, activate the programs,
          and run behind the scenes. I set the clouds in motion, turn up light and sound,
          activate the window, and watch the world go 'round." -Prime Mover, Rush.
        • Frank Weed II
          ... Well, some of those real-time games spent several WEEKS precomputing things _FOR_ you since they had complete control of all the data. Read up on the
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 2, 2006
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            phutgal wrote:

            > Scene Express is an answer but it seems a bit expensive just for an
            > exporter and the results I have seen, although nice, are not that
            > good. It seems to me that this field is a bit behind when it comes to
            > real time interactivity. Look at Google Earth and some modern games
            > such as Oblivion. I somtimes wonder why my computer is spending days
            > rendering a fly through when it can be done in real time, and look
            > better, in the world of games.

            Well, some of those real-time games spent several WEEKS precomputing
            things _FOR_ you since they had complete control of all the data. Read
            up on the development of Doom sometime. Even racing games spend several
            weeks with AI trying out different strategies to get believable
            opponents for you.

            Create an account & see how much work goes into real time games that
            you _DON'T_ see :)

            http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010124/adzima_01.htm

            --
            Frank P. Weed II - Frank2@...
            If you don't like your world, build a better one!
            World Construction Set Web Page - http://www.3DNature.com
            Component Exchange & Gallery - http://3dnworld.com/

            We're all looking at the internet wrong. It's not a vast resource.
            It's a garbage dump & we're going dumpster diving.
          • phutgal
            Thanks Adam, I will try AccuTrans. It sounds a good solution. I was an Amiga owner and do remember it. The only problem with Terragen terrains is that they
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2006
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              Thanks Adam, I will try AccuTrans. It sounds a good solution. I was an
              Amiga owner and do remember it. The only problem with Terragen
              terrains is that they need to be square, but it is worth a look.

              Tony.
            • phutgal
              but ... it went into 3DEM? The origional data is in STRM3 hgt format. Several tiles. ... original data straight I use 3DEM to merge then crop and use the stats
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 2, 2006
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                but
                > the real question is -- what format was the data originally, before
                it went into 3DEM?

                The origional data is in STRM3 hgt format. Several tiles.

                > And, what are you doing to it in 3DEM -- why not just import the
                original data straight

                I use 3DEM to merge then crop and use the stats to georeference MrSid
                cropped images for use in WCS.

                Anyway I have enough information to get me going for now. I just
                thought there would be a simple way to get these files into WCS in one
                bit as on at least 2 occaisions it has happened and I don't know why.
                However I now know to try some of the alternate methods suggested
                above, and I haven't ruled out SX.

                Thanks again
                Tony Robinson.
              • Chris 'Xenon' Hanson
                ... WCS should be able to import these without needing 3DEM to convert them. ... Hmm. Ok. I guess with your workflow you need to do this, but I d point out the
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  phutgal wrote:
                  > The origional data is in STRM3 hgt format. Several tiles.

                  WCS should be able to import these without needing 3DEM to convert them.

                  > I use 3DEM to merge then crop and use the stats to georeference MrSid
                  > cropped images for use in WCS.

                  Hmm. Ok. I guess with your workflow you need to do this, but I'd point out the VNS
                  makes all of this unnecessary, due to its native support of georeferencing.

                  > Thanks again
                  > Tony Robinson.

                  --
                  Chris 'Xenon' Hanson | Xenon @ 3D Nature | http://www.3DNature.com/
                  "I set the wheels in motion, turn up all the machines, activate the programs,
                  and run behind the scenes. I set the clouds in motion, turn up light and sound,
                  activate the window, and watch the world go 'round." -Prime Mover, Rush.
                • Andreas Zumsteg
                  Quoting phutgal : CLIPPED TEXT ... Export the terrain to VNS in one tile only. (use SX.) ... +++ AUG Zumsteg Grafik, Postfach 2374, 8031
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
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                    Quoting phutgal <tony@...>:>

                    CLIPPED TEXT

                    >
                    > Yes it is to run in a web browser.
                    >
                    >
                    > Sorry, I seem to have confused the issues here.
                    >
                    > Issue 1. Importing DEM's in one bit. I am using USGS ascii DEM's
                    > exported from 3DEM. Using the Import Wizard I get the following:
                    > 1. "Override" - I click Next, only other option is Cancel, I get:
                    > 2. "Load As" - options: next, back and Cancel. Radio button "DEM" is
                    > selected. I click next. I get:
                    > 3. "Output file type and name" options: Back, Import and Cancel. I
                    > click Import and get the DEM divided into 16 tiles.
                    >
                    > Nowhere do I get "change settings" although I have seen this for other
                    > file types.
                    >
                    > The Interface thing was another issue. I am considering getting Scene
                    > Express, and the NVE samples on your web page have a rather small
                    > interface.(at 1600 x 1200)The VRML is fine, but I need to control the
                    > polygon count and that is why I want to get the DEM into Lightwave and
                    > do the VRML there.
                    >
                    > I am happy with the SX options I just need to make a decision, but if
                    > anyone knows how I can get this DEM in in one piece I would be
                    > thankful. In the meantime I will explore other options.

                    Export the terrain to VNS in one tile only. (use SX.)

                    >
                    > Thanks again for your time
                    > Tony Robinson.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    +++
                    AUG Zumsteg Grafik, Postfach 2374, 8031 Zurich
                    Tel: 044 272 39 72
                    http://www.aug-arts.ch
                    azumsteg@...
                    +++
                    3D Visualisierung und Animation, Computergrafik
                    interaktive Anwendungen
                  • Andreas Zumsteg
                    Quoting Frank Weed II : ... ... RT games You can find on the shelves are team work of more than 40 people working more than one year on a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
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                      Quoting Frank Weed II <frank2@...>:>

                      > phutgal wrote:
                      >
                      >> Scene Express is an answer but it seems a bit expensive just for an
                      >> exporter and the results I have seen, although nice, are not that
                      >> good. It seems to me that this field is a bit behind when it comes to
                      >> real time interactivity. Look at Google Earth and some modern games
                      >> such as Oblivion. I somtimes wonder why my computer is spending days
                      >> rendering a fly through when it can be done in real time, and look
                      >> better, in the world of games.
                      >
                      > Well, some of those real-time games spent several WEEKS precomputing
                      > things _FOR_ you since they had complete control of all the data. Read
                      > up on the development of Doom sometime. Even racing games spend several
                      > weeks with AI trying out different strategies to get believable
                      > opponents for you.

                      ... RT games You can find on the shelves are team work of more than
                      40 people working more than one year on a project. Shelve games were pre
                      financed. So I think they >should look good in render.
                      But this and other kind of real time applications don't look better than
                      the render animation output of VNS/WCS.

                      To compare SX to RT Games or Apps using games technology You will find
                      differences a lot. First of all the concepts are not the same. Secondly
                      the application or the intention for an application are different from
                      SX to Games.

                      As long as I can, I use SX for building landscape based applications.
                      The only exception are terrains with high alpine characteristics, where
                      in some cases the authoring in a games engine can be an advantage because
                      of overhanging terrains and very steep parts. (3D authored VRML could be
                      an answer too.)
                      Another exception is functionality that SX does not provide. Physics and
                      gaming rules implmentation for example in racing applications or
                      advertising games. Once it could be also the interface design or interface
                      colors.

                      The LoD functions of games engines are able to render enough grass in the
                      foreground whereever in the scene, and You can watch at the scene being only
                      40cm above the ground. Often You cannot see more than a few hundred meters
                      away then the terrain is clipped (stencil) to a surrounding bitmap or
                      whatever, dust or so.
                      Have had once a tree count on such game scenes? Indeed, many games are very
                      impressive, but never at the quality of this days long renderings...

                      Me is thinking three times before I go another one time to use game engines or
                      another authoring toolset. Think about what is going on on the markets for
                      RT Engines the next months. One I am shure, SX is the exporter I will use,
                      and VNS the authoring tool for landscape.
                      I have seen, that the terrain export tasks are a central pivot in a work
                      pipeline, if it is for VRML, Games or any other. So it is only natural when
                      trying to avoid from exporting the terrain models to other software, and more
                      it is clever too. NatureView Express is a free available viewer that displays
                      a mass of foliage in photorealistic environments in real time. Maybe once it
                      displays the millions foreground grasses too, but effectively mostoften this
                      is not needed - to overfly hundreds of meters.
                      Details and scene extents are going hand in hand. Large extents provide
                      less details in general, and vice versa. This applys to Games Engines and
                      NVE as well as to every other format. It's to find a balance. And this is
                      much simpler when using only one software.
                      At least, I don't think a game scene looks better than one in SX. Or has one
                      tried to copy a games terrain to an SX terrain? I would say that this depends
                      on the artists capability. Then SX wins. No doubt. And regardless to the
                      prices of some games engines and the restrictioned use of this tools.

                      Have a nice day, Andreas

                      >
                      > Create an account & see how much work goes into real time games that
                      > you _DON'T_ see :)
                      >
                      > http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010124/adzima_01.htm
                      >
                      > --
                      > Frank P. Weed II - Frank2@...
                      > If you don't like your world, build a better one!
                      > World Construction Set Web Page - http://www.3DNature.com
                      > Component Exchange & Gallery - http://3dnworld.com/
                      >
                      > We're all looking at the internet wrong. It's not a vast resource.
                      > It's a garbage dump & we're going dumpster diving.
                      >



                      +++
                      AUG Zumsteg Grafik, Postfach 2374, 8031 Z?rich
                      Tel: 044 272 3972
                      http://www.aug-arts.ch
                      azumsteg@...
                      +++
                      3D Visualisierung und Animation, Computergrafik
                      interaktive Anwendungen
                    • phutgal
                      You have obviously done a lot of work on real time enviroments. I just think it is the way foreward in all this stuff. To be able to travel freely round our
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
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                        You have obviously done a lot of work on real time enviroments. I just
                        think it is the way foreward in all this stuff. To be able to travel
                        freely round our enviroments is a big plus. However pre rendered
                        movies will always have a big part to play.

                        Tony Robinson
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