Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: How many law firms does the district need?/Class Size Reduction

Expand Messages
  • Kevin Rivard
    Thank you Charley for finding the information below for Greg. It just shows what powerful resources the people on this site are when information like this can
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Thank you Charley for finding the information below for Greg. It just shows
      what powerful resources the people on this site are when information like
      this can be found, because of the vast experience and knowledge of those who
      read and contribute to the site.

      Greg, I was opposed to Class Size Reduction (CSR) at the time because of the
      lack of concrete stats as to whether CSR actually worked, but more than that
      when CSR was imposed upon the schools by our board, the carrot, more money
      for the school and more teacher jobs available, forced our school sites to
      take over space that was being used for other things. Some schools used
      their libraries to fulfill the CSR space requirement. Some used storage
      lockers that were just big enough for the kids. Some turned their
      multi-purpose rooms into classrooms. Every nook and cranny was being used
      whether it was educationally sound or not. The call from the district was,
      we don't care how you get it done, just get it done. Then the CSR encroached
      on the Bond program by designing one-third more classrooms at each
      redesigned school raising the cost of each reborn school. All of this
      because someone THOUGHT it was a good idea to teach in smaller classrooms,
      which has never been definitively proven one way or the other.

      One person mentioned, in response to my thoughts on CSR that, isn't it
      better to have a teacher watching a smaller classroom of kids rather than a
      room crammed with 30 kids. My response to that is, if you want your kid in a
      day care center fine, but when I sent my kids to school I sent them there
      for an EDUCATION not to be in a free day care center. If they can learn in
      an environment with a capable teacher and 30 kids and have more money spent
      on tools to help the teacher with the kids education I would rather that
      then, in a class of 20 with an incompetent teacher with no tools to help her
      or him teach my kid.

      When CSR was instituted the worst thing that happened was not the lack of
      space, not the lack of full funding from the state, not the robbing of Bond
      money for additional classrooms in our newly renovated school, but the fact
      that there were not enough bodies to fill the roll of teachers so we had the
      biggest influx of, under qualified non credentialed teachers in the history
      of our schools, teaching our kids.

      Oh wait Kevin, some will say, CSR classrooms were filled by some of our most
      experienced teachers.
      Those people are correct. Teachers with the most experience flocked to the
      CSR classrooms so they could teach only 20 kids instead of 30. So Greg guess
      where the under qualified, non credentialed teachers went. To the then
      available 4th to 6th grades for the most part. Some of those teachers have
      stayed and through on the job experience with our kids have become hopefully
      good teachers. But a lot got burned out for lack of proper training and
      support and left. In the mean time those kids that benefited from CSR went
      on into those, on the job training teachers, after CSR and in my opinion
      lost a lot of benefit of CSR, if there was any, in those 4th to 6th grade
      years.

      There is so much to be looked at with CSR but there is little studying being
      done and our district could have been a study lab for that experiment. But
      then again it is our kids who would have been and are the guinea pigs for
      that experiment. I personally do not like the idea of my kids being guinea
      pigs but then again I never saw, nor expected school to be a glorified day
      care center. I sent my kids to school to be educated not experimented upon.

      That is why I opted for Independent Study for my kids.

      Kevin


      >From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
      >Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      >To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: How many law firms does the district
      >need?/Class Size Reduction
      >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:24 -0700
      >MIME-Version: 1.0
      >X-Originating-IP: 209.85.198.189
      >X-Sender: charley.cowens@...
      >Received: from n19d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.67.244]) by
      >bay0-mc3-f13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue,
      >31 Jul 2007 23:56:17 -0700
      >Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug
      >2007 06:55:27 -0000
      >Received: from [66.218.66.97] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug
      >2007 06:55:27 -0000
      >Received: (qmail 51910 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2007 06:55:25 -0000
      >Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
      >1 Aug 2007 06:55:25 -0000
      >Received: from unknown (HELO rv-out-0910.google.com) (209.85.198.189) by
      >mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2007 06:55:25 -0000
      >Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g13so71465rvb for
      ><wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:25 -0700 (PDT)
      >Received: by 10.141.20.7 with SMTP id x7mr156827rvi.1185951324459;
      >Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
      >Received: by 10.141.98.8 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
      >X-Message-Info:
      >LsUYwwHHNt1ItnsmZLkBUECAxBIpRUYVbDU5CLwlq3HfwWDqCnQmi7egjg8z5ecT
      >Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
      >DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima;
      >d=yahoogroups.com;b=QRloApRmXKC+B4XqQnsOCWapLQDH4BueasI/lWrD67A0cZ2U7+ANnWezQ7ZjxRYf1PdXBgcfOY1miAPSGufz81P5jQ+kgRI+wKtisyC7SEAzGjjClGdtNt4aFJn7FONv;
      >X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 10178167-m1573
      >X-Apparently-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      >DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta;
      >
      >h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references;
      >
      >b=plho6O81rgln6WxRxETCHS1zhg/utZzvbLd3jwZ8PgZf/p1KRIS6pJDVEkVhDa6tVZYC7pKaVGgUal1wDz8HzPa2/3gBYUfo4QBgJC7Cr6kMlMe9vTZnMPKE+Q59hhkvBbVA5wT5lzaigbOp0yqJttpg+fYT61WgCL8p6NI/9rw=
      >References: <BAY115-F33E174298602EEEB3A734FD8EF0@...>
      ><f8ob05+tobb@...>
      >X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
      >X-Yahoo-Profile: charley_cowens
      >Mailing-List: list wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com; contact
      >wccusdtalk-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >Delivered-To: mailing list wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      >List-Id: <wccusdtalk.yahoogroups.com>
      >Precedence: bulk
      >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:wccusdtalk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
      >X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email-ff
      >Return-Path:
      >sentto-10178167-1573-1185951326-kfrivard=hotmail.com@...
      >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2007 06:56:17.0880 (UTC)
      >FILETIME=[0F3D0580:01C7D409]
      >
      >Greg-
      >
      >This is the site for the State-mandated research program that concluded in
      >2002 that the connection between achievement and CSR was inconclusive at
      >that time:
      >
      >http://www.classize.org/
      >
      >This report was invoked a lot last year when there was some discussion at
      >the State level for extending CSR to other grades. It doesn't actually
      >call
      >for the elimination of the program, but makes suggestions for changing it.
      >
      >Charley Cowens
      >
      >On 7/31/07, gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Kevin -- thanks for your comments on Class Size Reduction (CSR). What
      > > you had to say was really contrary to everything I have heard and
      > > assumed about smaller classes, so you got my attention!
      > >
      > > I was wondering if you have more information on CSR that you might be
      > > willing to share. I gather from reading your post that you are
      > > opposed to spending the money for CSR?
      >
      >
      >...
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
    • rebecca494
      Kevin, how time does fly. Class sized reduction is 13 years old. It was started in 94-95 (I am sure Charley is on his toes to correct me if I have the school
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Kevin, how time does fly. Class sized reduction is 13 years old. It
        was started in 94-95 (I am sure Charley is on his toes to correct me
        if I have the school year wrong).

        My youngest was in the 3rd grade. I called it class sized destruction.
        They came in literally overnight. The program was approved by the
        legislature in August and started at the beginning of that school year.

        They came in like a SWAT team and reconfigured classrooms, getting
        rid of the science room and computer room (and other pull out rooms as
        well) to make room for the smaller classes.

        The principal was so greedy that she wanted to reduce my son's third
        grade class after Christmas break to get the extra money for the
        district that the State of Ca was offering. Us parents revolted and
        said no. We said we would rather have the two good teachers that were
        teaching 30 each than figure out who was to go into the totally
        inexperienced, non-credentialed teacher's class who was already on
        board to teach the third class of third graders. Only one family
        wanted the reduction.

        Rebecca

        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Rivard" <kfrivard@...> wrote:
        >
        > Scottie, Scottie, Scottie,
        >
        > There you go again. Asking silly little questions and asking for
        > accountability.
        >
        > Silly you.
        >
        > Can't you just smile and know the district is saving money by
        outsourcing,
        > just like the Feds are saving money by outsourcing the feeding of our
        > troops, to private contractors instead of letting military chefs do the
        > cooking.
        >
        > Remember how the district saved money by getting rid of the District
        police
        > force.
        >
        > Oh, that's right there has not been a follow up report on that one
        to see
        > how much money the district is saving. Or maybe I just missed it.
        >
        > Or with all this talk about CSR, (Class Size Reduction), my point,
        that it
        > is costing the kids of this district over $3 million a year out of the
        > general fund, and that after six years of implementation we still
        have yet
        > to see any long term positive benefits from CSR or even any internal
        > district documentation that the kids actually benefit educationally
        from it
        > and the fact that the students who were in CSR still are having a
        hard time
        > passing the exit exam, might give a hint that CSR is not working and
        > perhaps, as Charley mentioned, as have other districts, maybe our
        district
        > should look into dropping CSR after a careful review and use that $3
        million
        > dollars to actually educate the kids.
        >
        > But no that won't happen because then the Union would loose a third
        of it's
        > lower level elementary dues paying teachers.
        >
        > Think about it, how long has CSR been around, six years or so, times $3
        > million, plus the add on to the school bond program for more rooms
        needed to
        > house CSR, plus all the space at the non remodeled schools converted to
        > house CSR and so on.
        >
        > CSR is a unproven program, never reviewed carefully if at all in this
        > district and it it an albatross taking away money that could better
        be spent
        > on programs for the neediest of our students as well as programs for
        the
        > GATE students, music students and so on.
        >
        > Just a little early morning rant from someone who objected to a
        program at
        > it's first light when I heard it was one of those, not fully State
        funded
        > programs, that had no factual basis for success.
        > The teachers and Unions benefit at the expense of the kids once again.
        >
        > Kevin
        >
        > Oh, by the way before you send me a site that proves CSR works I can
        send
        > you sites that prove just the opposite. I have read both and the
        conclusion
        > for me is there is no concrete evidence either way which tells me it
        is not
        > worth the extra money' if in our district the evidence shows that
        the kids
        > that have gone through CSR aren't able to pass the exit exam' that
        the long
        > term effects of CSR are not worth the money for the experiment.
        >
        > PPPPPsssss. Sorry for the run on sentances. Early morning brain seize.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >From: rcs101@...
        > >Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com,
        > >Subject: [wccusdtalk] How many law firms does the district need?
        > >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:34:28 +0000
        > >MIME-Version: 1.0
        > >X-Originating-IP: 204.127.131.117
        > >X-Sender: rcs101@...
        > >Received: from n17a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.124]) by
        > >bay0-mc9-f2.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668);
        Mon, 30
        > >Jul 2007 19:36:21 -0700
        > >Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n17.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with
        NNFMP; 31
        > >Jul 2007 02:36:12 -0000
        > >Received: from [66.218.69.5] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
        31 Jul
        > >2007 02:36:12 -0000
        > >Received: from [66.218.66.157] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with
        NNFMP; 31
        > >Jul 2007 02:36:12 -0000
        > >Received: (qmail 59164 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2007 02:34:46
        -0000
        > >Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m53.grp.scd.yahoo.com
        with QMQP;
        > >31 Jul 2007 02:34:46 -0000
        > >Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net)
        (204.127.131.117)
        > >by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2007 02:34:45 -0000
        > >Received: from mwebmail21.att.net ([204.127.135.60]) by
        > >worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id
        > ><200707310234281130089ujte>; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:34:28 +0000
        > >Received: from [69.236.179.174] by mwebmail21.att.net;Tue, 31 Jul 2007
        > >02:34:28 +0000
        > >X-Message-Info:
        > >LsUYwwHHNt1b306OFkH1wXx84cB3PXw1x2MgXHdPLVcEk7RQBTKfSIwZ7gHlCVxI
        > >Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
        > >DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima;
        >
        >d=yahoogroups.com;b=lGwwN1O+4662tterGSIa1UxRs6ZPvPP0qvxwR0BEjrQvr/GJ9AxZtuEEHAEjX/aS/sYIfDkS2Wmx1EOcGUif27PQs12HnSKROh3QUFYkhoN1mvCPJr3LW+jaryvITOFp;
        > >X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 10178167-m1572
        > >X-Apparently-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        > >X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 24 2007)
        > >X-Authenticated-Sender: cmNzMTAxQGF0dC5uZXQ=
        > >X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
        > >Mailing-List: list wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com; contact
        > >wccusdtalk-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >Delivered-To: mailing list wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        > >List-Id: <wccusdtalk.yahoogroups.com>
        > >Precedence: bulk
        > >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:wccusdtalk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
        > >X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email-ff
        > >Return-Path:
        > >sentto-10178167-1572-1185849366-kfrivard=hotmail.com@...
        > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2007 02:36:21.0411 (UTC)
        > >FILETIME=[949AF730:01C7D31B]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >--Looking at the Board agenda, there is a request to approve the
        hiring of
        > >5 legal firms and 1 legal attorney. How many lawyers does this
        district
        > >need? Also, is the cost a retainer or will there be extra cost
        depending on
        > >the work involved? Anyone with information, please let me know.
        > >
        > > Scottie Smith
        > >
        > >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > http://liveearth.msn.com
        >
      • Ralph Bedwell
        My guess is that the main impact of increasing class size would be on the kids who need the most help. Most of the ones with the best skills, and probably
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          My guess is that the main impact of increasing class size would be on
          the kids who need the most help. Most of the ones with the best
          skills, and probably most of the ones in the middle too, would
          probably do nearly the same either way. But the kid who starts the
          school year with significantly below grade level skills, the kid whose
          emotional problems tend to hold them back in their schoolwork, the
          ones whose behavorial problems get in the way of learning, etc. --
          those are the kids who need the most attention but will probably get
          less because there is not as much teacher to go around.

          Another factor to consider here is that not all classes and schools
          are created equal. It would probably make very little difference at
          the highest performing schools because kids there (on average) tend to
          start school more prepared and with a higher level of parental
          support; they are less distractible, easier to manage, etc.

          However, kids in the lowest performing school would probably suffer
          the most from an increase in class size because their issues are the
          opposite -- many are already behind grade level when they start
          kindergarten, they're more distractible, behavior and attention issues
          are greater, etc. Students at these schools just tend to need more
          attention.

          Maybe our school district should try and find a way to redistribute
          its class-size reduction resources to fit the varying school sites.
          The best schools would probably be fine with none, and those dollars
          could be used to extend class-size reduction to grades 4-6 at the
          poorest schools. That would be a major step towards real equity, in
          my opinion (which is based on teaching/having taught at schools at all
          these achievement levels).

          Ralph

          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
          >
          > I, too, found Kevin's comments about class size reduction interesting.
          > My daughter graduated this June and always had classes of 30 plus. My
          > son graduates this coming June and was in the first class with class
          > size reduction. There were 33 in his kindergarten class and in January
          > of first grade they split the classes so there were 20 per class. It
          > might be interesting to compare the pass rates on the exit exam for the
          > classes of 2007 and 2008 or the STAR tests or average SAT scores. My
          > personal experience from the parent perspective is that it hasn't
          made a
          > whole lot of difference. A good teacher is a good teacher, no matter if
          > there are 20 or 33 kids, and that teacher will be fully aware of how
          > each kid is doing. From the teacher perspective, 20 is way easier to
          > managethan 33, but I haven't seen any scientific studies to show
          that it
          > actually improves learning.
          >
          > The state will continue to partially fund the program because it's
          > popular, making it a good political move. Districts can elect to
          > participate or not, and it sounds like many school districts are
          > starting to take a second look.
          > Cathy
          >
          > gregorychang wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Kevin -- thanks for your comments on Class Size Reduction (CSR). What
          > > you had to say was really contrary to everything I have heard and
          > > assumed about smaller classes, so you got my attention!
          > >
          > > I was wondering if you have more information on CSR that you might be
          > > willing to share. I gather from reading your post that you are
          > > opposed to spending the money for CSR?
          > >
          > > It just seems intuitive to me that students will be more interested
          > > and perform better in a smaller class and the teacher can get to know
          > > the students more intimately and not have to spend so much time on
          > > controlling the kids. That seems like a more healthy environment to
          > > me compared to a classroom of 35 1st graders! How exhausting that
          > > would be for the teacher -- and much easier for at-risk kids to fall
          > > through the cracks in such an environment. But a lot of times what
          > > seems right as a gut feeling does not play out in the real world so I
          > > am interested to hearing more about the perceived negatives of CSR.
          > >
          > > You mention that the academic research is not definitive and the
          > > WCCUSD has never done any kind of study to prove that this kind of
          > > spending is worth the investment. While I accept that there may not
          > > be a WCCUSD study proving that it does work, that also must mean that
          > > there are no studies showing that it hasnt worked. I would guess we
          > > just dont know. Has the WCCUSD implemented any strategies to directly
          > > capitalize on the opportunities of CSR, or have they just left it to
          > > the teachers to figure out on their own?
          > >
          > > I have a question about your comment regarding the exit exam...``the
          > > fact that the students who were in CSR still are having a hard time
          > > passing the exit exam...'' My understanding is that CSR is employed
          > > only for grades K-3. Is this accurate? If so, then in what way would
          > > CSR be expected to show results regarding the exit exam since CSR has
          > > only been around for six years? Also, should we regard success at the
          > > exit exam as the litmus test regarding CSR at the elementary level?
          > > Would we be able to compare results of the exit exam with and without
          > > CSR? That seems like it might be problematic.
          > >
          > > Thanks, Greg
          > >
          > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Kevin Rivard" <kfrivard@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Scottie, Scottie, Scottie,
          > > >
          > > > There you go again. Asking silly little questions and asking for
          > > > accountability.
          > > >
          > > > Silly you.
          > > >
          > > > Can't you just smile and know the district is saving money by
          > > outsourcing,
          > > > just like the Feds are saving money by outsourcing the feeding of
          > > our
          > > > troops, to private contractors instead of letting military chefs do
          > > the
          > > > cooking.
          > > >
          > > > Remember how the district saved money by getting rid of the
          > > District police
          > > > force.
          > > >
          > > > Oh, that's right there has not been a follow up report on that one
          > > to see
          > > > how much money the district is saving. Or maybe I just missed it.
          > > >
          > > > Or with all this talk about CSR, (Class Size Reduction), my point,
          > > that it
          > > > is costing the kids of this district over $3 million a year out of
          > > the
          > > > general fund, and that after six years of implementation we still
          > > have yet
          > > > to see any long term positive benefits from CSR or even any
          > > internal
          > > > district documentation that the kids actually benefit educationally
          > > from it
          > > > and the fact that the students who were in CSR still are having a
          > > hard time
          > > > passing the exit exam, might give a hint that CSR is not working
          > > and
          > > > perhaps, as Charley mentioned, as have other districts, maybe our
          > > district
          > > > should look into dropping CSR after a careful review and use that
          > > $3 million
          > > > dollars to actually educate the kids.
          > > >
          > > > But no that won't happen because then the Union would loose a third
          > > of it's
          > > > lower level elementary dues paying teachers.
          > > >
          > > > Think about it, how long has CSR been around, six years or so,
          > > times $3
          > > > million, plus the add on to the school bond program for more rooms
          > > needed to
          > > > house CSR, plus all the space at the non remodeled schools
          > > converted to
          > > > house CSR and so on.
          > > >
          > > > CSR is a unproven program, never reviewed carefully if at all in
          > > this
          > > > district and it it an albatross taking away money that could better
          > > be spent
          > > > on programs for the neediest of our students as well as programs
          > > for the
          > > > GATE students, music students and so on.
          > > >
          > > > Just a little early morning rant from someone who objected to a
          > > program at
          > > > it's first light when I heard it was one of those, not fully State
          > > funded
          > > > programs, that had no factual basis for success.
          > > > The teachers and Unions benefit at the expense of the kids once
          > > again.
          > > >
          > > > Kevin
          > > >
          > > > Oh, by the way before you send me a site that proves CSR works I
          > > can send
          > > > you sites that prove just the opposite. I have read both and the
          > > conclusion
          > > > for me is there is no concrete evidence either way which tells me
          > > it is not
          > > > worth the extra money' if in our district the evidence shows that
          > > the kids
          > > > that have gone through CSR aren't able to pass the exit exam' that
          > > the long
          > > > term effects of CSR are not worth the money for the experiment.
          > > >
          > > > PPPPPsssss. Sorry for the run on sentances. Early morning brain
          > > seize.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • rebecca494
          Ralph, I couldn t agree more. At the time CSR was implemented I thought it inherently unequal or contributing to inequity because those students who really
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Ralph, I couldn't agree more. At the time CSR was implemented I
            thought it inherently unequal or contributing to inequity because
            those students who really need it, i.e. the students you are referring
            to, were not given any priority over students who do just fine in a
            class of 30+. My feelings were and are that CSR was just a feel good
            program to garner a political constituency of middle and upper class
            families for the public schools.

            If there had been any educational justification in CSR, it would have
            been used for those schools whose students really need the extra
            attention. And, it would have included 4-6 grades. Do you realize the
            damage done to the 4th - 6th graders (I am referring here to all or
            most of the elementary schools) when class sized reduction was
            implemented. Suddenly students went from small classes to large
            classes in one year with no preparation. Also, since the resources
            were and are diminished fewer computer labs, science rooms (all
            programs which benefit the upper grades more) the 4th - 6th graders
            spent much more time in the classroom and had much less pull out time
            for enrichment.

            Also as Kevin points out veteran teachers began bumping down leaving
            the less qualified teachers originally hired as CSR teachers to deal
            with the more difficult age group 4th-6th grades.

            It was a mess. Maybe now many of the kinks have been ironed out, but
            still it has been going 13 years and I have to ask what are the
            benefits other than an illusory feel good sense for parents of K-3?


            Rebecca Hazlewood


            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...> wrote:
            >
            > My guess is that the main impact of increasing class size would be on
            > the kids who need the most help. Most of the ones with the best
            > skills, and probably most of the ones in the middle too, would
            > probably do nearly the same either way. But the kid who starts the
            > school year with significantly below grade level skills, the kid whose
            > emotional problems tend to hold them back in their schoolwork, the
            > ones whose behavorial problems get in the way of learning, etc. --
            > those are the kids who need the most attention but will probably get
            > less because there is not as much teacher to go around.
            >
            > Another factor to consider here is that not all classes and schools
            > are created equal. It would probably make very little difference at
            > the highest performing schools because kids there (on average) tend to
            > start school more prepared and with a higher level of parental
            > support; they are less distractible, easier to manage, etc.
            >
            > However, kids in the lowest performing school would probably suffer
            > the most from an increase in class size because their issues are the
            > opposite -- many are already behind grade level when they start
            > kindergarten, they're more distractible, behavior and attention issues
            > are greater, etc. Students at these schools just tend to need more
            > attention.
            >
            > Maybe our school district should try and find a way to redistribute
            > its class-size reduction resources to fit the varying school sites.
            > The best schools would probably be fine with none, and those dollars
            > could be used to extend class-size reduction to grades 4-6 at the
            > poorest schools. That would be a major step towards real equity, in
            > my opinion (which is based on teaching/having taught at schools at all
            > these achievement levels).
            >
            > Ralph
            >
            > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I, too, found Kevin's comments about class size reduction
            interesting.
            > > My daughter graduated this June and always had classes of 30 plus. My
            > > son graduates this coming June and was in the first class with class
            > > size reduction. There were 33 in his kindergarten class and in
            January
            > > of first grade they split the classes so there were 20 per class. It
            > > might be interesting to compare the pass rates on the exit exam
            for the
            > > classes of 2007 and 2008 or the STAR tests or average SAT scores. My
            > > personal experience from the parent perspective is that it hasn't
            > made a
            > > whole lot of difference. A good teacher is a good teacher, no
            matter if
            > > there are 20 or 33 kids, and that teacher will be fully aware of how
            > > each kid is doing. From the teacher perspective, 20 is way easier to
            > > managethan 33, but I haven't seen any scientific studies to show
            > that it
            > > actually improves learning.
            > >
            > > The state will continue to partially fund the program because it's
            > > popular, making it a good political move. Districts can elect to
            > > participate or not, and it sounds like many school districts are
            > > starting to take a second look.
            > > Cathy
            > >
            > > gregorychang wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Kevin -- thanks for your comments on Class Size Reduction (CSR).
            What
            > > > you had to say was really contrary to everything I have heard and
            > > > assumed about smaller classes, so you got my attention!
            > > >
            > > > I was wondering if you have more information on CSR that you
            might be
            > > > willing to share. I gather from reading your post that you are
            > > > opposed to spending the money for CSR?
            > > >
            > > > It just seems intuitive to me that students will be more interested
            > > > and perform better in a smaller class and the teacher can get to
            know
            > > > the students more intimately and not have to spend so much time on
            > > > controlling the kids. That seems like a more healthy environment to
            > > > me compared to a classroom of 35 1st graders! How exhausting that
            > > > would be for the teacher -- and much easier for at-risk kids to fall
            > > > through the cracks in such an environment. But a lot of times what
            > > > seems right as a gut feeling does not play out in the real world
            so I
            > > > am interested to hearing more about the perceived negatives of CSR.
            > > >
            > > > You mention that the academic research is not definitive and the
            > > > WCCUSD has never done any kind of study to prove that this kind of
            > > > spending is worth the investment. While I accept that there may not
            > > > be a WCCUSD study proving that it does work, that also must mean
            that
            > > > there are no studies showing that it hasnt worked. I would guess we
            > > > just dont know. Has the WCCUSD implemented any strategies to
            directly
            > > > capitalize on the opportunities of CSR, or have they just left it to
            > > > the teachers to figure out on their own?
            > > >
            > > > I have a question about your comment regarding the exit exam...``the
            > > > fact that the students who were in CSR still are having a hard time
            > > > passing the exit exam...'' My understanding is that CSR is employed
            > > > only for grades K-3. Is this accurate? If so, then in what way would
            > > > CSR be expected to show results regarding the exit exam since
            CSR has
            > > > only been around for six years? Also, should we regard success
            at the
            > > > exit exam as the litmus test regarding CSR at the elementary level?
            > > > Would we be able to compare results of the exit exam with and
            without
            > > > CSR? That seems like it might be problematic.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks, Greg
            > > >
            > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > > > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Kevin Rivard" <kfrivard@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Scottie, Scottie, Scottie,
            > > > >
            > > > > There you go again. Asking silly little questions and asking for
            > > > > accountability.
            > > > >
            > > > > Silly you.
            > > > >
            > > > > Can't you just smile and know the district is saving money by
            > > > outsourcing,
            > > > > just like the Feds are saving money by outsourcing the feeding of
            > > > our
            > > > > troops, to private contractors instead of letting military
            chefs do
            > > > the
            > > > > cooking.
            > > > >
            > > > > Remember how the district saved money by getting rid of the
            > > > District police
            > > > > force.
            > > > >
            > > > > Oh, that's right there has not been a follow up report on that one
            > > > to see
            > > > > how much money the district is saving. Or maybe I just missed it.
            > > > >
            > > > > Or with all this talk about CSR, (Class Size Reduction), my point,
            > > > that it
            > > > > is costing the kids of this district over $3 million a year out of
            > > > the
            > > > > general fund, and that after six years of implementation we still
            > > > have yet
            > > > > to see any long term positive benefits from CSR or even any
            > > > internal
            > > > > district documentation that the kids actually benefit
            educationally
            > > > from it
            > > > > and the fact that the students who were in CSR still are having a
            > > > hard time
            > > > > passing the exit exam, might give a hint that CSR is not working
            > > > and
            > > > > perhaps, as Charley mentioned, as have other districts, maybe our
            > > > district
            > > > > should look into dropping CSR after a careful review and use that
            > > > $3 million
            > > > > dollars to actually educate the kids.
            > > > >
            > > > > But no that won't happen because then the Union would loose a
            third
            > > > of it's
            > > > > lower level elementary dues paying teachers.
            > > > >
            > > > > Think about it, how long has CSR been around, six years or so,
            > > > times $3
            > > > > million, plus the add on to the school bond program for more rooms
            > > > needed to
            > > > > house CSR, plus all the space at the non remodeled schools
            > > > converted to
            > > > > house CSR and so on.
            > > > >
            > > > > CSR is a unproven program, never reviewed carefully if at all in
            > > > this
            > > > > district and it it an albatross taking away money that could
            better
            > > > be spent
            > > > > on programs for the neediest of our students as well as programs
            > > > for the
            > > > > GATE students, music students and so on.
            > > > >
            > > > > Just a little early morning rant from someone who objected to a
            > > > program at
            > > > > it's first light when I heard it was one of those, not fully State
            > > > funded
            > > > > programs, that had no factual basis for success.
            > > > > The teachers and Unions benefit at the expense of the kids once
            > > > again.
            > > > >
            > > > > Kevin
            > > > >
            > > > > Oh, by the way before you send me a site that proves CSR works I
            > > > can send
            > > > > you sites that prove just the opposite. I have read both and the
            > > > conclusion
            > > > > for me is there is no concrete evidence either way which tells me
            > > > it is not
            > > > > worth the extra money' if in our district the evidence shows that
            > > > the kids
            > > > > that have gone through CSR aren't able to pass the exit exam' that
            > > > the long
            > > > > term effects of CSR are not worth the money for the experiment.
            > > > >
            > > > > PPPPPsssss. Sorry for the run on sentances. Early morning brain
            > > > seize.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Eduardo Martinez
            I have painfully been reading these posts about the validity of class size reduction. What disturbs me most is the illusion that the validity of any one issue
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I have painfully been reading these posts about the
              validity of class size reduction. What disturbs me
              most is the illusion that the validity of any one
              issue can be determined by a test score. When
              attending school site council meetings when at Downer,
              I found that programs not wanted by administration
              (like class size reduction for the upper grades), were
              discounted as "not working" because scores had not
              gone up. Programs or job positions that were favored
              by administration could have been but were not
              discounted for the same reason.

              Because schools are working communities, it is
              difficult to isolate any one issue. Before we start
              eliminating any one item from the school culture, we
              need to look at it holistically. How well is the
              school functioning as a community? What can be done
              to improve relations? To establish co-operation among
              the stake holders? To create a common vision instead
              of the divisive "cut here, nip there" mentality of
              basing everything on test scores.

              Eduardo

              --- Alicia <ladyluvslife@...> wrote:

              > Jill, You are a mind reader! I was sitting here
              > wondering
              > if there were any districts that did NOT participate
              > in
              > Class size reduction. I also appreciate Kevin's
              > comments
              > and knowledge about class size reduction.
              >
              > Here is the kicker. We have a system that can tell
              > us
              > if it is working good things for our kids. Writing
              > it
              > into the school site plan as a strategy to improve
              > student
              > achievement. Funds are allocated, site plans are
              > submitted
              > to the board, and at the end of the year the
              > State/Federal
              > program department receives a report from every site
              >
              > letting them know what strategys were implemented,
              > what
              > were not. We then get test scores.
              >
              > So if Class Size Reduction were important enough, we
              > would
              > find a way to use the monies we are already getting
              > and
              > write it into the plan as this is the only living
              > document
              > that monitors the IMPORTANT stuff - what are we
              > doing at
              > our kid's school.
              >
              > I have reviewed many site plans and later on will
              > post a
              > couple of good examples of sites who have written
              > smaller
              > class size directly into their plan and have seen
              > good results
              > so the strategy continues.
              >
              > AMEDINA
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "sunsetjill"
              > <sunsetjill@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > FYI- 99 % OF DISTRICTS PARTICIPATE -
              > > 2005-06 - 882 districts participated (99%) - 8
              > districts did not
              > > participate
              > > Taken From
              > http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/cs/k3/facts.asp
              > > I would like to add though that I have read a
              > little about Class
              > > size reduction and could not find any scientific
              > data that would
              > > convince me that it makes a difference in the
              > overall academic
              > > performance.
              > > I think as Alicia said it does however comfort us
              > parents to know
              > > our little ones are being looked after.
              > >
              > > Jill
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos
              > <cbt@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I, too, found Kevin's comments about class size
              > reduction
              > > interesting.
              > > > My daughter graduated this June and always had
              > classes of 30
              > plus.
              > > My
              > > > son graduates this coming June and was in the
              > first class with
              > > class
              > > > size reduction. There were 33 in his
              > kindergarten class and in
              > > January
              > > > of first grade they split the classes so there
              > were 20 per class.
              > > It
              > > > might be interesting to compare the pass rates
              > on the exit exam
              > > for the
              > > > classes of 2007 and 2008 or the STAR tests or
              > average SAT scores.
              > > My
              > > > personal experience from the parent perspective
              > is that it hasn't
              > > made a
              > > > whole lot of difference. A good teacher is a
              > good teacher, no
              > > matter if
              > > > there are 20 or 33 kids, and that teacher will
              > be fully aware of
              > > how
              > > > each kid is doing. From the teacher perspective,
              > 20 is way easier
              > > to
              > > > managethan 33, but I haven't seen any scientific
              > studies to show
              > > that it
              > > > actually improves learning.
              > > >
              > > > The state will continue to partially fund the
              > program because
              > it's
              > > > popular, making it a good political move.
              > Districts can elect to
              > > > participate or not, and it sounds like many
              > school districts are
              > > > starting to take a second look.
              > > > Cathy
              > > >
              > > > gregorychang wrote:
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Kevin -- thanks for your comments on Class
              > Size Reduction
              > (CSR).
              > > What
              > > > > you had to say was really contrary to
              > everything I have heard
              > and
              > > > > assumed about smaller classes, so you got my
              > attention!
              > > > >
              > > > > I was wondering if you have more information
              > on CSR that you
              > > might be
              > > > > willing to share. I gather from reading your
              > post that you are
              > > > > opposed to spending the money for CSR?
              > > > >
              > > > > It just seems intuitive to me that students
              > will be more
              > > interested
              > > > > and perform better in a smaller class and the
              > teacher can get
              > to
              > > know
              > > > > the students more intimately and not have to
              > spend so much time
              > > on
              > > > > controlling the kids. That seems like a more
              > healthy
              > environment
              > > to
              > > > > me compared to a classroom of 35 1st graders!
              > How exhausting
              > that
              > > > > would be for the teacher -- and much easier
              > for at-risk kids to
              > > fall
              > > > > through the cracks in such an environment. But
              > a lot of times
              > > what
              > > > > seems right as a gut feeling does not play out
              > in the real
              > world
              > > so I
              > > > > am interested to hearing more about the
              > perceived negatives of
              > > CSR.
              > > > >
              > > > > You mention that the academic research is not
              > definitive and the
              > > > > WCCUSD has never done any kind of study to
              > prove that this kind
              > > of
              > > > > spending is worth the investment. While I
              > accept that there may
              > > not
              > > > > be a WCCUSD study proving that it does work,
              > that also must
              > mean
              > > that
              > > > > there are no studies showing that it hasnt
              > worked. I would
              > guess
              > > we
              > > > > just dont know. Has the WCCUSD implemented any
              > strategies to
              > > directly
              > > > > capitalize on the opportunities of CSR, or
              > have they just left
              > > it to
              > > > > the teachers to figure out on their own?
              > > > >
              > > > > I have a question about your comment regarding
              > the exit
              > > exam...``the
              > > > > fact that the students who were in CSR still
              > are having a hard
              > > time
              > > > > passing the exit exam...'' My understanding is
              > that CSR is
              > > employed
              > > > > only for grades K-3. Is this accurate? If so,
              > then in what way
              > > would
              > > > > CSR be expected to show results regarding the
              > exit exam since
              > > CSR has
              > > > > only been around for six years? Also, should
              > we regard success
              > > at the
              > > > > exit exam as the litmus test regarding CSR at
              > the elementary
              > > level?
              > > > > Would we be able to compare results of the
              > exit exam with and
              > > without
              > > > > CSR? That seems like it might be problematic.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks, Greg
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Kevin
              > Rivard"
              > <kfrivard@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Scottie, Scottie, Scottie,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > There you go again. Asking silly little
              > questions and asking
              > > for
              > > > > > accountability.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Silly you.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Can't you just smile and know the district
              > is saving money by
              > > > > outsourcing,
              > > > > > just like the Feds are saving money by
              > outsourcing the
              > feeding
              > > of
              > > > > our
              > > > > > troops, to private contractors instead of
              > letting military
              > > chefs do
              > > > > the
              > > > > > cooking.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Remember how the district saved money by
              > getting rid of the
              > > > > District police
              > > > > > force.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Oh, that's right there has not been a follow
              > up report on
              > that
              > > one
              > > > > to see
              > > > > > how much money the district is saving. Or
              > maybe I just missed
              > > it.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Or with all this talk about CSR, (Class Size
              > Reduction), my
              > > point,
              > > > > that it
              > > > > > is costing the kids of this district over $3
              > million a year
              > > out of
              > > > > the
              > > > > > general fund, and that after six years of
              > implementation we
              > > still
              > > > > have yet
              > > > > > to see any long term positive benefits from
              > CSR or even any
              > > > > internal
              > > > > > district documentation that the kids
              > actually benefit
              > > educationally
              > > > > from it
              > > > > > and the fact that the students who were in
              > CSR still are
              > > having a
              > > > > hard time
              > > > > > passing the exit exam, might give a hint
              > that CSR is not
              > > working
              > > > > and
              > > > > > perhaps, as Charley mentioned, as have other
              > districts, maybe
              > > our
              > > > > district
              > > > > > should look into dropping CSR after a
              > careful review and use
              > > that
              > > > > $3 million
              > > > > > dollars to actually educate the kids.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But no that won't happen because then the
              > Union would loose a
              > > third
              > > > > of it's
              > > > > > lower level elementary dues paying teachers.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Think about it, how long has CSR been
              > around, six years or so,
              > > > > times $3
              > > > > > million, plus the add on to the school bond
              > program for more
              > > rooms
              > > > > needed to
              > > > > > house CSR, plus all the space at the non
              > remodeled schools
              > > > > converted to
              > > > > > house CSR and so on.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > CSR is a unproven program, never reviewed
              > carefully if at all
              > > in
              > > > > this
              > > > > > district and it it an albatross taking away
              > money that could
              > > better
              > > > > be spent
              > > > > > on programs for the neediest of our students
              > as well as
              > > programs
              > > > > for the
              > > > > > GATE students, music students and so on.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Just a little early morning rant from
              > someone who objected to
              > a
              > > > > program at
              > > > > > it's first light when I heard it was one of
              > those, not fully
              > > State
              > > > > funded
              > > > > > programs, that had no factual basis for
              > success.
              > > > > > The teachers and Unions benefit at the
              > expense of the kids
              > once
              > > > > again.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Kevin
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Oh, by the way before you send me a site
              > that proves CSR
              > works
              > > I
              > > > > can send
              > > > > > you sites that prove just the opposite. I
              > have read both and
              > > the
              > > > > conclusion
              > > > > > for me is there is no concrete evidence
              > either way which
              > tells
              > > me
              > > > > it is not
              > > > > > worth the extra money' if in our district
              > the evidence shows
              > > that
              > > > > the kids
              > > > > > that have gone through CSR aren't able to
              > pass the exit exam'
              > > that
              > > > > the long
              > > > > > term effects of CSR are not worth the money
              > for the
              > experiment.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > PPPPPsssss. Sorry for the run on sentances.
              > Early morning
              > brain
              > > > > seize.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
              http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
            • Cathy Travlos
              Eduardo s right: test scores definitely aren t the litmus test for anything. My original post about my personal experience with class size had nothing to do
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Eduardo's right: test scores definitely aren't the litmus test for
                anything. My original post about my personal experience with class size
                had nothing to do with test scores. Class size reduction seemed to have
                little effect on my own kids' educational experience. One had it, one
                didn't, both have had mostly good experiences.

                As far as the discussion about high performing schools vs the rest, or
                using school site funding to keep class size reduction where some
                arbitrary person decides it's needed, there are indeed equity issues
                here, just not the ones we usually think of. First, don't forget about
                the high achieving students who almost always get forgotten in this
                district. They're the ones most at risk of learning nothing, all day
                long, every day, because the system with NCLB and all the rest is set up
                so they end up waiting for everyone else to catch up. The other issue is
                that the high performing schools will probably do just fine with or
                without CSR. The lowest performing schools get all kinds of funding and
                will figure out a way to keep what they need. It's the schools in the
                middle, schools like Sheldon and El Sobrante and the rest, who don't
                have the parents fundraising and don't qualify for all those categorical
                funds, who get left out.

                Cathy

                Eduardo Martinez wrote:

                > I have painfully been reading these posts about the
                > validity of class size reduction. What disturbs me
                > most is the illusion that the validity of any one
                > issue can be determined by a test score. When
                > attending school site council meetings when at Downer,
                > I found that programs not wanted by administration
                > (like class size reduction for the upper grades), were
                > discounted as "not working" because scores had not
                > gone up. Programs or job positions that were favored
                > by administration could have been but were not
                > discounted for the same reason.
                >
                > Because schools are working communities, it is
                > difficult to isolate any one issue. Before we start
                > eliminating any one item from the school culture, we
                > need to look at it holistically. How well is the
                > school functioning as a community? What can be done
                > to improve relations? To establish co-operation among
                > the stake holders? To create a common vision instead
                > of the divisive "cut here, nip there" mentality of
                > basing everything on test scores.
                >
                > Eduardo
                >
                > --- Alicia <ladyluvslife@...
                > <mailto:ladyluvslife%40sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
                >
                > > Jill, You are a mind reader! I was sitting here
                > > wondering
                > > if there were any districts that did NOT participate
                > > in
                > > Class size reduction. I also appreciate Kevin's
                > > comments
                > > and knowledge about class size reduction.
                > >
                > > Here is the kicker. We have a system that can tell
                > > us
                > > if it is working good things for our kids. Writing
                > > it
                > > into the school site plan as a strategy to improve
                > > student
                > > achievement. Funds are allocated, site plans are
                > > submitted
                > > to the board, and at the end of the year the
                > > State/Federal
                > > program department receives a report from every site
                > >
                > > letting them know what strategys were implemented,
                > > what
                > > were not. We then get test scores.
                > >
                > > So if Class Size Reduction were important enough, we
                > > would
                > > find a way to use the monies we are already getting
                > > and
                > > write it into the plan as this is the only living
                > > document
                > > that monitors the IMPORTANT stuff - what are we
                > > doing at
                > > our kid's school.
                > >
                > > I have reviewed many site plans and later on will
                > > post a
                > > couple of good examples of sites who have written
                > > smaller
                > > class size directly into their plan and have seen
                > > good results
                > > so the strategy continues.
                > >
                > > AMEDINA
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, "sunsetjill"
                > > <sunsetjill@...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > FYI- 99 % OF DISTRICTS PARTICIPATE -
                > > > 2005-06 - 882 districts participated (99%) - 8
                > > districts did not
                > > > participate
                > > > Taken From
                > > http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/cs/k3/facts.asp
                > <http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/cs/k3/facts.asp>
                > > > I would like to add though that I have read a
                > > little about Class
                > > > size reduction and could not find any scientific
                > > data that would
                > > > convince me that it makes a difference in the
                > > overall academic
                > > > performance.
                > > > I think as Alicia said it does however comfort us
                > > parents to know
                > > > our little ones are being looked after.
                > > >
                > > > Jill
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, Cathy Travlos
                > > <cbt@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I, too, found Kevin's comments about class size
                > > reduction
                > > > interesting.
                > > > > My daughter graduated this June and always had
                > > classes of 30
                > > plus.
                > > > My
                > > > > son graduates this coming June and was in the
                > > first class with
                > > > class
                > > > > size reduction. There were 33 in his
                > > kindergarten class and in
                > > > January
                > > > > of first grade they split the classes so there
                > > were 20 per class.
                > > > It
                > > > > might be interesting to compare the pass rates
                > > on the exit exam
                > > > for the
                > > > > classes of 2007 and 2008 or the STAR tests or
                > > average SAT scores.
                > > > My
                > > > > personal experience from the parent perspective
                > > is that it hasn't
                > > > made a
                > > > > whole lot of difference. A good teacher is a
                > > good teacher, no
                > > > matter if
                > > > > there are 20 or 33 kids, and that teacher will
                > > be fully aware of
                > > > how
                > > > > each kid is doing. From the teacher perspective,
                > > 20 is way easier
                > > > to
                > > > > managethan 33, but I haven't seen any scientific
                > > studies to show
                > > > that it
                > > > > actually improves learning.
                > > > >
                > > > > The state will continue to partially fund the
                > > program because
                > > it's
                > > > > popular, making it a good political move.
                > > Districts can elect to
                > > > > participate or not, and it sounds like many
                > > school districts are
                > > > > starting to take a second look.
                > > > > Cathy
                > > > >
                > > > > gregorychang wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Kevin -- thanks for your comments on Class
                > > Size Reduction
                > > (CSR).
                > > > What
                > > > > > you had to say was really contrary to
                > > everything I have heard
                > > and
                > > > > > assumed about smaller classes, so you got my
                > > attention!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I was wondering if you have more information
                > > on CSR that you
                > > > might be
                > > > > > willing to share. I gather from reading your
                > > post that you are
                > > > > > opposed to spending the money for CSR?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > It just seems intuitive to me that students
                > > will be more
                > > > interested
                > > > > > and perform better in a smaller class and the
                > > teacher can get
                > > to
                > > > know
                > > > > > the students more intimately and not have to
                > > spend so much time
                > > > on
                > > > > > controlling the kids. That seems like a more
                > > healthy
                > > environment
                > > > to
                > > > > > me compared to a classroom of 35 1st graders!
                > > How exhausting
                > > that
                > > > > > would be for the teacher -- and much easier
                > > for at-risk kids to
                > > > fall
                > > > > > through the cracks in such an environment. But
                > > a lot of times
                > > > what
                > > > > > seems right as a gut feeling does not play out
                > > in the real
                > > world
                > > > so I
                > > > > > am interested to hearing more about the
                > > perceived negatives of
                > > > CSR.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > You mention that the academic research is not
                > > definitive and the
                > > > > > WCCUSD has never done any kind of study to
                > > prove that this kind
                > > > of
                > > > > > spending is worth the investment. While I
                > > accept that there may
                > > > not
                > > > > > be a WCCUSD study proving that it does work,
                > > that also must
                > > mean
                > > > that
                > > > > > there are no studies showing that it hasnt
                > > worked. I would
                > > guess
                > > > we
                > > > > > just dont know. Has the WCCUSD implemented any
                > > strategies to
                > > > directly
                > > > > > capitalize on the opportunities of CSR, or
                > > have they just left
                > > > it to
                > > > > > the teachers to figure out on their own?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I have a question about your comment regarding
                > > the exit
                > > > exam...``the
                > > > > > fact that the students who were in CSR still
                > > are having a hard
                > > > time
                > > > > > passing the exit exam...'' My understanding is
                > > that CSR is
                > > > employed
                > > > > > only for grades K-3. Is this accurate? If so,
                > > then in what way
                > > > would
                > > > > > CSR be expected to show results regarding the
                > > exit exam since
                > > > CSR has
                > > > > > only been around for six years? Also, should
                > > we regard success
                > > > at the
                > > > > > exit exam as the litmus test regarding CSR at
                > > the elementary
                > > > level?
                > > > > > Would we be able to compare results of the
                > > exit exam with and
                > > > without
                > > > > > CSR? That seems like it might be problematic.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks, Greg
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > > <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Kevin
                > > Rivard"
                > > <kfrivard@>
                > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Scottie, Scottie, Scottie,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > There you go again. Asking silly little
                > > questions and asking
                > > > for
                > > > > > > accountability.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Silly you.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Can't you just smile and know the district
                > > is saving money by
                > > > > > outsourcing,
                > > > > > > just like the Feds are saving money by
                > > outsourcing the
                > > feeding
                > > > of
                > > > > > our
                > > > > > > troops, to private contractors instead of
                > > letting military
                > > > chefs do
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > cooking.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Remember how the district saved money by
                > > getting rid of the
                > > > > > District police
                > > > > > > force.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Oh, that's right there has not been a follow
                > > up report on
                > > that
                > > > one
                > > > > > to see
                > > > > > > how much money the district is saving. Or
                > > maybe I just missed
                > > > it.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Or with all this talk about CSR, (Class Size
                > > Reduction), my
                > > > point,
                > > > > > that it
                > > > > > > is costing the kids of this district over $3
                > > million a year
                > > > out of
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > general fund, and that after six years of
                > > implementation we
                > > > still
                > > > > > have yet
                > > > > > > to see any long term positive benefits from
                > > CSR or even any
                > > > > > internal
                > > > > > > district documentation that the kids
                > > actually benefit
                > > > educationally
                > > > > > from it
                > > > > > > and the fact that the students who were in
                > > CSR still are
                > > > having a
                > > > > > hard time
                > > > > > > passing the exit exam, might give a hint
                > > that CSR is not
                > > > working
                > > > > > and
                > > > > > > perhaps, as Charley mentioned, as have other
                > > districts, maybe
                > > > our
                > > > > > district
                > > > > > > should look into dropping CSR after a
                > > careful review and use
                > > > that
                > > > > > $3 million
                > > > > > > dollars to actually educate the kids.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > But no that won't happen because then the
                > > Union would loose a
                > > > third
                > > > > > of it's
                > > > > > > lower level elementary dues paying teachers.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Think about it, how long has CSR been
                > > around, six years or so,
                > > > > > times $3
                > > > > > > million, plus the add on to the school bond
                > > program for more
                > > > rooms
                > > > > > needed to
                > > > > > > house CSR, plus all the space at the non
                > > remodeled schools
                > > > > > converted to
                > > > > > > house CSR and so on.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > CSR is a unproven program, never reviewed
                > > carefully if at all
                > > > in
                > > > > > this
                > > > > > > district and it it an albatross taking away
                > > money that could
                > > > better
                > > > > > be spent
                > > > > > > on programs for the neediest of our students
                > > as well as
                > > > programs
                > > > > > for the
                > > > > > > GATE students, music students and so on.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Just a little early morning rant from
                > > someone who objected to
                > > a
                > > > > > program at
                > > > > > > it's first light when I heard it was one of
                > > those, not fully
                > > > State
                > > > > > funded
                > > > > > > programs, that had no factual basis for
                > > success.
                > > > > > > The teachers and Unions benefit at the
                > > expense of the kids
                > > once
                > > > > > again.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Kevin
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Oh, by the way before you send me a site
                > > that proves CSR
                > > works
                > > > I
                > > > > > can send
                > > > > > > you sites that prove just the opposite. I
                > > have read both and
                > > > the
                > > > > > conclusion
                > > > > > > for me is there is no concrete evidence
                > > either way which
                > > tells
                > > > me
                > > > > > it is not
                > > > > > > worth the extra money' if in our district
                > > the evidence shows
                > > > that
                > > > > > the kids
                > > > > > > that have gone through CSR aren't able to
                > > pass the exit exam'
                > > > that
                > > > > > the long
                > > > > > > term effects of CSR are not worth the money
                > > for the
                > > experiment.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > PPPPPsssss. Sorry for the run on sentances.
                > > Early morning
                > > brain
                > > > > > seize.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ <http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/>
                >
                >
              • Diamel@aol.com
                Well Stated, Eduardo Diane Brown, DeJean Middle ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well Stated, Eduardo

                  Diane Brown,
                  DeJean Middle



                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                  http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tammera Campbell
                  We should do some more investigation, but received information regarding legal fees this year compared to previous years from Dr. Harter. Of course, what
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    We should do some more investigation, but received
                    information regarding legal fees this year compared to
                    previous years from Dr. Harter.

                    "Of course, what we're spending is significantly lower
                    than in previous years. Could you put something out
                    there about the MGT report and the prior spending on
                    legal services? Our budget represents a $700,000
                    reduction in spending over 2005-06 -- the last year
                    for which we have complete data. We have attorneys
                    for personnel work, our bond and constructions work,
                    labor relations, special education, and other
                    compliance issues. There's simply too much code in
                    California to reply on a single firm."

                    I also put out a question to Mr. Brower about his
                    view. He questioned well over a year ago the legal
                    fees we had in this district. He seemed to have done
                    some investigation in that area.

                    We should also review the MGT audit and post what the
                    suggestion was for making the district more efficient.


                    If in actuality we are hiring more legal competent
                    people in HR and other management positions, then
                    maybe we wouldn't be getting into legal pitfalls that
                    require lawyers. Just a comment, no real data though.

                    Frankly I don't have the time or inclination to pursue
                    this route so maybe Mr. Brower can comment or someone
                    else do the footwork. More concerned about Measure G
                    and getting school started for the kids at PVHS this
                    next year. But will ask Sheri Gamba at the next
                    Budget Advisory meeting if she could provide
                    information to the public about legal fees.

                    Charley - Could we put on agenda or ask the question
                    for a future CBAC meeting?
                    Thanks,
                    Tammy Campbell

                    --- Kevin Rivard <kfrivard@...> wrote:

                    > Thank you Charley for finding the information below
                    > for Greg. It just shows
                    > what powerful resources the people on this site are
                    > when information like
                    > this can be found, because of the vast experience
                    > and knowledge of those who
                    > read and contribute to the site.
                    >
                    > Greg, I was opposed to Class Size Reduction (CSR) at
                    > the time because of the
                    > lack of concrete stats as to whether CSR actually
                    > worked, but more than that
                    > when CSR was imposed upon the schools by our board,
                    > the carrot, more money
                    > for the school and more teacher jobs available,
                    > forced our school sites to
                    > take over space that was being used for other
                    > things. Some schools used
                    > their libraries to fulfill the CSR space
                    > requirement. Some used storage
                    > lockers that were just big enough for the kids. Some
                    > turned their
                    > multi-purpose rooms into classrooms. Every nook and
                    > cranny was being used
                    > whether it was educationally sound or not. The call
                    > from the district was,
                    > we don't care how you get it done, just get it done.
                    > Then the CSR encroached
                    > on the Bond program by designing one-third more
                    > classrooms at each
                    > redesigned school raising the cost of each reborn
                    > school. All of this
                    > because someone THOUGHT it was a good idea to teach
                    > in smaller classrooms,
                    > which has never been definitively proven one way or
                    > the other.
                    >
                    > One person mentioned, in response to my thoughts on
                    > CSR that, isn't it
                    > better to have a teacher watching a smaller
                    > classroom of kids rather than a
                    > room crammed with 30 kids. My response to that is,
                    > if you want your kid in a
                    > day care center fine, but when I sent my kids to
                    > school I sent them there
                    > for an EDUCATION not to be in a free day care
                    > center. If they can learn in
                    > an environment with a capable teacher and 30 kids
                    > and have more money spent
                    > on tools to help the teacher with the kids education
                    > I would rather that
                    > then, in a class of 20 with an incompetent teacher
                    > with no tools to help her
                    > or him teach my kid.
                    >
                    > When CSR was instituted the worst thing that
                    > happened was not the lack of
                    > space, not the lack of full funding from the state,
                    > not the robbing of Bond
                    > money for additional classrooms in our newly
                    > renovated school, but the fact
                    > that there were not enough bodies to fill the roll
                    > of teachers so we had the
                    > biggest influx of, under qualified non credentialed
                    > teachers in the history
                    > of our schools, teaching our kids.
                    >
                    > Oh wait Kevin, some will say, CSR classrooms were
                    > filled by some of our most
                    > experienced teachers.
                    > Those people are correct. Teachers with the most
                    > experience flocked to the
                    > CSR classrooms so they could teach only 20 kids
                    > instead of 30. So Greg guess
                    > where the under qualified, non credentialed teachers
                    > went. To the then
                    > available 4th to 6th grades for the most part. Some
                    > of those teachers have
                    > stayed and through on the job experience with our
                    > kids have become hopefully
                    > good teachers. But a lot got burned out for lack of
                    > proper training and
                    > support and left. In the mean time those kids that
                    > benefited from CSR went
                    > on into those, on the job training teachers, after
                    > CSR and in my opinion
                    > lost a lot of benefit of CSR, if there was any, in
                    > those 4th to 6th grade
                    > years.
                    >
                    > There is so much to be looked at with CSR but there
                    > is little studying being
                    > done and our district could have been a study lab
                    > for that experiment. But
                    > then again it is our kids who would have been and
                    > are the guinea pigs for
                    > that experiment. I personally do not like the idea
                    > of my kids being guinea
                    > pigs but then again I never saw, nor expected school
                    > to be a glorified day
                    > care center. I sent my kids to school to be educated
                    > not experimented upon.
                    >
                    > That is why I opted for Independent Study for my
                    > kids.
                    >
                    > Kevin
                    >
                    >
                    > >From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                    > >Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                    > >To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: How many law firms
                    > does the district
                    > >need?/Class Size Reduction
                    > >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:24 -0700
                    > >MIME-Version: 1.0
                    > >X-Originating-IP: 209.85.198.189
                    > >X-Sender: charley.cowens@...
                    > >Received: from n19d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com
                    > ([66.218.67.244]) by
                    > >bay0-mc3-f13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft
                    > SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Tue,
                    > >31 Jul 2007 23:56:17 -0700
                    > >Received: from [66.218.69.5] by
                    > n19.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug
                    > >2007 06:55:27 -0000
                    > >Received: from [66.218.66.97] by
                    > t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug
                    > >2007 06:55:27 -0000
                    > >Received: (qmail 51910 invoked from network); 1 Aug
                    > 2007 06:55:25 -0000
                    > >Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by
                    > m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
                    > >1 Aug 2007 06:55:25 -0000
                    > >Received: from unknown (HELO
                    > rv-out-0910.google.com) (209.85.198.189) by
                    > >mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2007
                    > 06:55:25 -0000
                    > >Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id
                    > g13so71465rvb for
                    > ><wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>; Tue, 31 Jul 2007
                    > 23:55:25 -0700 (PDT)
                    > >Received: by 10.141.20.7 with SMTP id
                    > x7mr156827rvi.1185951324459;
                    > >Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
                    > >Received: by 10.141.98.8 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jul
                    > 2007 23:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
                    > >X-Message-Info:
                    >
                    >LsUYwwHHNt1ItnsmZLkBUECAxBIpRUYVbDU5CLwlq3HfwWDqCnQmi7egjg8z5ecT
                    > >Comment: DomainKeys? See
                    > http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
                    > >DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
                    > s=lima;
                    >
                    >d=yahoogroups.com;b=QRloApRmXKC+B4XqQnsOCWapLQDH4BueasI/lWrD67A0cZ2U7+ANnWezQ7ZjxRYf1PdXBgcfOY1miAPSGufz81P5jQ+kgRI+wKtisyC7SEAzGjjClGdtNt4aFJn7FONv;
                    > >X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 10178167-m1573
                    > >X-Apparently-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                    > >DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed;
                    > d=gmail.com; s=beta;
                    > >
                    >
                    >h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references;
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >b=plho6O81rgln6WxRxETCHS1zhg/utZzvbLd3jwZ8PgZf/p1KRIS6pJDVEkVhDa6tVZYC7pKaVGgUal1wDz8HzPa2/3gBYUfo4QBgJC7Cr6kMlMe9vTZnMPKE+Q59hhkvBbVA5wT5lzaigbOp0yqJttpg+fYT61WgCL8p6NI/9rw=
                    > >References:
                    > <BAY115-F33E174298602EEEB3A734FD8EF0@...>
                    > ><f8ob05+tobb@...>
                    > >X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0
                    > >X-Yahoo-Profile: charley_cowens
                    > >Mailing-List: list wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com;
                    > contact
                    > >wccusdtalk-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Delivered-To: mailing list
                    > wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                    > >List-Id: <wccusdtalk.yahoogroups.com>
                    > >Precedence: bulk
                    > >List-Unsubscribe:
                    > <mailto:wccusdtalk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                    > >X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email-ff
                    > >Return-Path:
                    >
                    >sentto-10178167-1573-1185951326-kfrivard=hotmail.com@...
                    > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2007 06:56:17.0880
                    > (UTC)
                    > >FILETIME=[0F3D0580:01C7D409]
                    > >
                    > >Greg-
                    > >
                    > >This is the site for the State-mandated research
                    > program that concluded in
                    > >2002 that the connection between achievement and
                    > CSR was inconclusive at
                    > >that time:
                    > >
                    > >http://www.classize.org/
                    > >
                    > >This report was invoked a lot last year when there
                    > was some discussion at
                    > >the State level for extending CSR to other grades.
                    > It doesn't actually
                    > >call
                    > >for the elimination of the program, but makes
                    > suggestions
                    === message truncated ===



                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                    Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                    http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.