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Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech

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  • spricco@comcast.net
    Just a minute. I ve been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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      Just a minute. I've been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is certainly not free speech. The issue is bullying behavior. Take personalities out of this for a moment. Was the behavior something that you or I or anyone would tolerate from a student? Would it be tolerated in dealing with another adult? While I do not know what actually transpired, if there was bullying behavior, it needs to be stopped.


      -------------- Original message --------------
      From: Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...>

      > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
      > rather than months later. Just an observation.
      >
      > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that
      > was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and
      > the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not
      > yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many
      > people out there have really spent time understanding public educational
      > funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased
      > health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand
      > that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
      > How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment?
      > How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
      > couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
      > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board
      > meetings and bother to understand the budget
      > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings
      > to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring
      > stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the
      > numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger
      > picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story?
      > Local One has been there.
      > Tammy Campbell
      >
      > gregorychang wrote:
      > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
      > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
      > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
      > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
      > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
      > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
      >
      > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
      > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
      > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
      > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
      >
      > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
      > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
      > What kind of message does that send?
      >
      > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
      > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
      > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
      > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
      > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
      >
      > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
      > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
      > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Charley Cowens
      Tammy, Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original incident? Let s focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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        Tammy,

        Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
        incident?

        Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
        citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
        El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
        stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
        proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
        saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
        had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
        Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
        incident.

        It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
        a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
        in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
        about.

        Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
        to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
        originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
        the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
        compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
        members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
        appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
        of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
        requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
        teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
        absurd position.

        Charley Cowens

        On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
        > rather than months later. Just an observation.
        >
        > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
        > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
        > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
        > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
        > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
        > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
        > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
        > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
        > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
        > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
        > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
        > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
        > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
        > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
        > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
        > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
        > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
        > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
        > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
        > the story? Local One has been there.
        > Tammy Campbell
        >
        > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
        > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
        > teacher
        > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
        > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
        > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
        > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
        > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
        >
        > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
        > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
        > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
        > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
        >
        > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
        > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
        > What kind of message does that send?
        >
        > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
        > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
        > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
        > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
        > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
        >
        > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
        > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
        > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rcs101@att.net
        --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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          --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident. Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore, the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the opportunity with support, for a 2 o
          r 3rd chance.

          Scottie Smith




          -------------- Original message ----------------------
          From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
          >
          > Tammy,
          >
          > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
          > incident?
          >
          > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
          > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
          > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
          > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
          > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
          > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
          > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
          > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
          > incident.
          >
          > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
          > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
          > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
          > about.
          >
          > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
          > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
          > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
          > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
          > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
          > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
          > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
          > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
          > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
          > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
          > absurd position.
          >
          > Charley Cowens
          >
          > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
          > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
          > >
          > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
          > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
          > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
          > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
          > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
          > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
          > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
          > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
          > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
          > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
          > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
          > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
          > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
          > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
          > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
          > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
          > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
          > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
          > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
          > > the story? Local One has been there.
          > > Tammy Campbell
          > >
          > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
          > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
          > > teacher
          > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
          > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
          > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
          > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
          > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
          > >
          > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
          > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
          > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
          > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
          > >
          > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
          > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
          > > What kind of message does that send?
          > >
          > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
          > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
          > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
          > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
          > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
          > >
          > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
          > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
          > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Ralph Bedwell
          Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are being made other than Mr. Ramsey s? While I do strongly feel that a school district
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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            Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
            being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?

            While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
            needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
            human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
            people, I think these are two separate issues.

            Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
            pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
            other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
            forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
            educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
            based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
            tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
            from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
            order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
            just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
            teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
            to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
            that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
            means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
            moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)

            Ralph


            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
            >
            > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
            recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
            member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
            Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
            behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
            conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
            constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
            students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
            mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
            expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
            students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
            in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
            the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
            rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
            opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
            >
            > Scottie Smith

            > -------------- Original message ----------------------
            > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
            > >
            > > Tammy,
            > >
            > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
            original
            > > incident?
            > >
            > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
            teacher and
            > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
            public place at
            > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
            a total
            > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
            > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
            what he is
            > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
            citizen) who
            > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
            > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
            stop the
            > > incident.
            > >
            > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
            whether or not
            > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
            makes sense
            > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
            conversation was
            > > about.
            > >
            > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
            Committee is not
            > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
            > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
            member of
            > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
            Even in the
            > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
            appoint
            > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
            in the
            > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
            antipathy
            > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
            Contract
            > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
            choosing the
            > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
            to be an
            > > absurd position.
            > >
            > > Charley Cowens
            > >
            > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
            the event
            > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
            > > >
            > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
            conversation
            > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
            that Mr.
            > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
            > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
            > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
            spent time
            > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
            > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
            costs and the
            > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
            last year
            > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
            many of us can
            > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
            many of us
            > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
            couple of
            > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
            > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
            the school
            > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
            > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
            Advisory
            > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
            committee was
            > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
            numbers,
            > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
            numbers and
            > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
            their side of
            > > > the story? Local One has been there.
            > > > Tammy Campbell
            > > >
            > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
            > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
            > > > teacher
            > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
            > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
            to kill
            > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
            letter
            > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
            school board
            > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
            intimidate me."
            > > >
            > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
            Did the
            > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
            > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
            not the
            > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
            > > >
            > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
            > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
            > > > What kind of message does that send?
            > > >
            > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
            > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
            over an
            > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
            would hope
            > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
            > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
            > > >
            > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
            no way
            > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
            > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ---------------------------------
            > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • rcs101@att.net
            --Ralph: I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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              --Ralph:

              I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.



              Scottie Smith




              -------------- Original message ----------------------
              From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
              >
              > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
              > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
              >
              > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
              > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
              > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
              > people, I think these are two separate issues.
              >
              > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
              > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
              > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
              > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
              > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
              > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
              > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
              > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
              > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
              > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
              > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
              > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
              > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
              > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
              > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
              >
              > Ralph
              >
              >
              > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
              > >
              > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
              > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
              > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
              > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
              > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
              > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
              > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
              > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
              > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
              > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
              > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
              > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
              > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
              > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
              > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
              > >
              > > Scottie Smith
              >
              > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
              > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
              > > >
              > > > Tammy,
              > > >
              > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
              > original
              > > > incident?
              > > >
              > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
              > teacher and
              > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
              > public place at
              > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
              > a total
              > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
              > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
              > what he is
              > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
              > citizen) who
              > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
              > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
              > stop the
              > > > incident.
              > > >
              > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
              > whether or not
              > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
              > makes sense
              > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
              > conversation was
              > > > about.
              > > >
              > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
              > Committee is not
              > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
              > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
              > member of
              > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
              > Even in the
              > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
              > appoint
              > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
              > in the
              > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
              > antipathy
              > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
              > Contract
              > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
              > choosing the
              > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
              > to be an
              > > > absurd position.
              > > >
              > > > Charley Cowens
              > > >
              > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
              > the event
              > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
              > > > >
              > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
              > conversation
              > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
              > that Mr.
              > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
              > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
              > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
              > spent time
              > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
              > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
              > costs and the
              > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
              > last year
              > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
              > many of us can
              > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
              > many of us
              > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
              > couple of
              > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
              > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
              > the school
              > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
              > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
              > Advisory
              > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
              > committee was
              > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
              > numbers,
              > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
              > numbers and
              > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
              > their side of
              > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
              > > > > Tammy Campbell
              > > > >
              > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
              > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
              > > > > teacher
              > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
              > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
              > to kill
              > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
              > letter
              > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
              > school board
              > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
              > intimidate me."
              > > > >
              > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
              > Did the
              > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
              > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
              > not the
              > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
              > > > >
              > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
              > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
              > > > > What kind of message does that send?
              > > > >
              > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
              > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
              > over an
              > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
              > would hope
              > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
              > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
              > > > >
              > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
              > no way
              > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
              > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • Tammera Campbell
              Charley, It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May,
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                Charley,
                It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May, then?

                Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than understanding the problem.

                Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view. Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct conflict with what the unions may want.
                Tammy Campbell


                Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                Tammy,

                Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                incident?

                Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                incident.

                It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                about.

                Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                absurd position.

                Charley Cowens

                On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                >
                > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                > the story? Local One has been there.
                > Tammy Campbell
                >
                > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                > teacher
                > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                >
                > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                >
                > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                > What kind of message does that send?
                >
                > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                >
                > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                ---------------------------------
                Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • petr_loubal
                As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate speech, unlike
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it
                  seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate
                  speech, unlike intemperate action, should be censored (with opinions
                  split more or less equally). The more recent comments question the
                  timing and deal with the root cause and motives.

                  This evolution could be seen as a good example of "collective wisdom"
                  at work in our local internet setting. (See, for instance,
                  http://wikinomics.com/ for a more thorough examination of this
                  phenomenon in the world-at-large).

                  Let's hope this is noticed. Maybe it is time to hear from the
                  participants in the initial confrontation.

                  Turn the issue into a learning experience, and get on with more
                  substantial concerns.

                  Peter
                  ------------------------------------
                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Tammera Campbell
                  <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Charley,
                  > It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we
                  are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it
                  occurred in May, then?
                  >
                  > Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong.
                  What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident
                  rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to
                  fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus
                  on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and
                  work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have
                  these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so
                  many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than
                  understanding the problem.
                  >
                  > Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the
                  mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget
                  transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been
                  stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I
                  also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned
                  to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent
                  that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the
                  budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view.
                  Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union
                  issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that
                  we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and
                  health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct
                  conflict with what the unions may want.
                  > Tammy Campbell
                  >
                  >
                  > Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                  > Tammy,
                  >
                  > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                  original
                  > incident?
                  >
                  > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                  teacher and
                  > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public
                  place at
                  > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a
                  total
                  > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                  > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what
                  he is
                  > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                  citizen) who
                  > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                  > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                  stop the
                  > incident.
                  >
                  > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether
                  or not
                  > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                  makes sense
                  > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                  conversation was
                  > about.
                  >
                  > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee
                  is not
                  > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                  > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                  member of
                  > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even
                  in the
                  > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                  appoint
                  > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                  in the
                  > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                  antipathy
                  > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                  > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                  choosing the
                  > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                  to be an
                  > absurd position.
                  >
                  > Charley Cowens
                  >
                  > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                  the event
                  > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                  > >
                  > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                  conversation
                  > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                  > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                  > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                  > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                  spent time
                  > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                  > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs
                  and the
                  > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                  last year
                  > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many
                  of us can
                  > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                  many of us
                  > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                  > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                  > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the
                  school
                  > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                  > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                  > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                  committee was
                  > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                  numbers,
                  > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                  numbers and
                  > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                  their side of
                  > > the story? Local One has been there.
                  > > Tammy Campbell
                  > >
                  > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                  > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                  > > teacher
                  > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                  > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                  > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                  > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school
                  board
                  > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                  intimidate me."
                  > >
                  > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                  > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                  > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                  > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                  > >
                  > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                  > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                  > > What kind of message does that send?
                  > >
                  > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                  > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                  over an
                  > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would
                  hope
                  > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                  > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                  > >
                  > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                  > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                  > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                  > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • jim cowen
                  Tammera Campbell wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey s behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                    Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident.



                    _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict between districts and unions.
                    This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and union/district conflicts, is it???
                    That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work stress.

                    When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it - what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the person committing the assault.

                    The root cause is Ramsey.

                    Jim



                    ---------------------------------
                    Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                    Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Cathy Travlos
                    There are two issues here. First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I m sure he d agree. He s not the only one who needs to do this
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                      There are two issues here.
                      First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I'm
                      sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                      have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I disagreed
                      with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                      report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                      example for our kids.
                      Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                      UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However, the
                      flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                      assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known him?
                      Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                      is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt that
                      being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                      district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                      It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                      member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                      when there are important issues at hand.

                      Cathy

                      jim cowen wrote:

                      > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                      > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                      > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                      > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                      > cause behind the incident.
                      >
                      > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                      > between districts and unions.
                      > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey
                      > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                      > union/district conflicts, is it???
                      > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                      > stress.
                      >
                      > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                      > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                      > person committing the assault.
                      >
                      > The root cause is Ramsey.
                      >
                      > Jim
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                      > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Ralph Bedwell
                      Scottie, Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars. You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on personal whim. This is not
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                        Scottie,

                        Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                        You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                        personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                        student.

                        I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                        we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                        school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                        or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                        etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                        personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                        But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                        essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                        optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                        put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                        can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                        that they need and deserve.

                        Ralph

                        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --Ralph:
                        >
                        > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                        district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                        need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                        of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                        expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                        momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Scottie Smith
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                        > >
                        > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                        > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                        > >
                        > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                        > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                        > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                        > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                        > >
                        > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                        > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                        > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                        > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                        > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                        > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                        > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                        > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                        > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                        > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                        > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                        > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                        > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                        > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                        > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                        > >
                        > > Ralph
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                        > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                        > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                        > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                        > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                        > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                        > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                        > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                        > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                        > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                        > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                        > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                        > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                        > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                        > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                        > > >
                        > > > Scottie Smith
                        > >
                        > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tammy,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                        > > original
                        > > > > incident?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                        > > teacher and
                        > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                        > > public place at
                        > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                        > > a total
                        > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                        > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                        > > what he is
                        > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                        > > citizen) who
                        > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                        incident.
                        > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                        > > stop the
                        > > > > incident.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                        > > whether or not
                        > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                        > > makes sense
                        > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                        > > conversation was
                        > > > > about.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                        > > Committee is not
                        > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                        fact,
                        > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                        > > member of
                        > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                        > > Even in the
                        > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                        > > appoint
                        > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                        > > in the
                        > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                        > > antipathy
                        > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                        > > Contract
                        > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                        > > choosing the
                        > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                        > > to be an
                        > > > > absurd position.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Charley Cowens
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                        > > the event
                        > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                        > > conversation
                        > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                        > > that Mr.
                        > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                        be that
                        > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                        > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                        > > spent time
                        > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                        > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                        > > costs and the
                        > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                        > > last year
                        > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                        > > many of us can
                        > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                        > > many of us
                        > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                        > > couple of
                        > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                        Comittee
                        > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                        > > the school
                        > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                        > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                        > > Advisory
                        > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                        > > committee was
                        > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                        > > numbers,
                        > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                        > > numbers and
                        > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                        > > their side of
                        > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                        > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                        > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                        that the
                        > > > > > teacher
                        > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                        say what
                        > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                        > > to kill
                        > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                        > > letter
                        > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                        > > school board
                        > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                        > > intimidate me."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                        > > Did the
                        > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                        Was he
                        > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                        > > not the
                        > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                        cannot
                        > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                        years.
                        > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                        this a
                        > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                        > > over an
                        > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                        > > would hope
                        > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                        confident
                        > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                        > > no way
                        > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                        in the
                        > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                        Travel.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Mike Wasilchin
                        Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night. At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night.



                          At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                          suspensions and expulsions. The data is not real accurate as the manner in
                          which the information is recorded varies from site to site and the
                          application of District/Site policies is not administered equitably.
                          Additionally, according to District data, students with discipline problems
                          are no longer just transferred from one school to the next. For the most
                          part, there are several types of programs that are being utilized to curb
                          student behavior at a particular site prior to suspending and expelling the
                          students. Some examples: CCC Probation department gets referrals from both
                          the D.A. (via court decisions) and principals (they identify students at
                          risk to intervene before they get in the system; there are a few mentor
                          programs that are being utilized that have several levels to be able to
                          offer support to repeat offenders; there are summits that students at risk
                          are able to attend and then become proactive agents of change at their
                          respective sites; peer counseling and conflict mediation is growing at both
                          the elementary and secondary levels and appears to be having an impact; and
                          the District is in the process of implementing character development at the
                          middle schools, which is already in place in several elementary and proving
                          to be quite successful; and there are also several community services that
                          are available to youth that meet certain criteria (foster care, Spanish
                          speaking, gang affiliations, etc.)



                          While the data from the District is not completely accurate, it is a
                          starting point. My position is that if you if you do not have accurate and
                          complete data, one does not know how successful or unsuccessful a program or
                          plan is. I have urged the District to ensure the data that is captured is
                          as accurate as possible and that the data be shared with the public in
                          several different arenas (Board of Education, District Safety Committee,
                          School Site Councils, etc.) The ultimate goal is to make the schools safer
                          through the implementation and ongoing modification of several different
                          programs and mechanisms such that students know the rules and acceptable
                          behaviors in the District and recognize the disciplines that will be
                          administered when rules are broken. This is something that has not been
                          consistently happening in this District for several years.



                          This is just interpretation by attending all of the District Safety
                          Committee Meetings for 2006/07 and following the safety issues on the Board
                          of Education agendas.



                          Michael Wasilchin

                          Business Agent

                          Public Employees Union, Local One

                          4197 Lakeside Dr., Suite # 170

                          Richmond, CA 94806

                          Telephone # - (510) 222 - 5012

                          Fax # - (510) 222 - 8858



                          _____

                          From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Ralph Bedwell
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:20 PM
                          To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech



                          Scottie,

                          Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                          You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                          personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                          student.

                          I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                          we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                          school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                          or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                          etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                          personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                          But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                          essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                          optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                          put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                          can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                          that they need and deserve.

                          Ralph

                          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
                          rcs101@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --Ralph:
                          >
                          > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                          district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                          need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                          of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                          expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                          momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Scottie Smith
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                          > >
                          > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                          > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                          > >
                          > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                          > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                          > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                          > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                          > >
                          > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                          > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                          > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                          > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                          > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                          > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                          > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                          > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                          > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                          > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                          > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                          > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                          > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                          > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                          > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                          > >
                          > > Ralph
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                          ups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                          > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                          > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                          > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                          > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                          > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                          > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                          > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                          > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                          > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                          > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                          > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                          > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                          > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                          > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                          > > >
                          > > > Scottie Smith
                          > >
                          > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tammy,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                          > > original
                          > > > > incident?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                          > > teacher and
                          > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                          > > public place at
                          > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                          > > a total
                          > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                          > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                          > > what he is
                          > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                          > > citizen) who
                          > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                          incident.
                          > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                          > > stop the
                          > > > > incident.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                          > > whether or not
                          > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                          > > makes sense
                          > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                          > > conversation was
                          > > > > about.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                          > > Committee is not
                          > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                          fact,
                          > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                          > > member of
                          > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                          > > Even in the
                          > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                          > > appoint
                          > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                          > > in the
                          > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                          > > antipathy
                          > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                          > > Contract
                          > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                          > > choosing the
                          > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                          > > to be an
                          > > > > absurd position.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Charley Cowens
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                          > > the event
                          > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                          > > conversation
                          > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                          > > that Mr.
                          > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                          be that
                          > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                          > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                          > > spent time
                          > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                          > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                          > > costs and the
                          > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                          > > last year
                          > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                          > > many of us can
                          > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                          > > many of us
                          > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                          > > couple of
                          > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                          Comittee
                          > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                          > > the school
                          > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                          > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                          > > Advisory
                          > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                          > > committee was
                          > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                          > > numbers,
                          > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                          > > numbers and
                          > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                          > > their side of
                          > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                          > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                          > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                          that the
                          > > > > > teacher
                          > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                          say what
                          > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                          > > to kill
                          > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                          > > letter
                          > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                          > > school board
                          > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                          > > intimidate me."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                          > > Did the
                          > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                          Was he
                          > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                          > > not the
                          > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                          cannot
                          > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                          years.
                          > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                          this a
                          > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                          > > over an
                          > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                          > > would hope
                          > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                          confident
                          > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                          > > no way
                          > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                          in the
                          > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                          Travel.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • rcs101@att.net
                          --Ralph: I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                            --Ralph:

                            I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide information to teachers and principals about all resources that are available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology, speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed, or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like teachers are in the same boat.

                            It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems; and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders. Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to another, without using the available services that are to help students and teachers.

                            There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful, therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning environment or the society.

                            So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in the Fall?

                            Scottie Smith




                            -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                            >
                            > Scottie,
                            >
                            > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                            >
                            > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                            > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                            > student.
                            >
                            > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                            > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                            > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                            > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                            > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                            > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                            > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                            > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                            > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                            > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                            > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                            > that they need and deserve.
                            >
                            > Ralph
                            >
                            > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --Ralph:
                            > >
                            > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                            > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                            > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                            > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                            > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                            > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Scottie Smith
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                            > > >
                            > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                            > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                            > > >
                            > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                            > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                            > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                            > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                            > > >
                            > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                            > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                            > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                            > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                            > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                            > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                            > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                            > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                            > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                            > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                            > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                            > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                            > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                            > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                            > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                            > > >
                            > > > Ralph
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                            > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                            > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                            > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                            > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                            > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                            > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                            > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                            > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                            > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                            > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                            > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                            > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                            > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                            > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Scottie Smith
                            > > >
                            > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Tammy,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                            > > > original
                            > > > > > incident?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                            > > > teacher and
                            > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                            > > > public place at
                            > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                            > > > a total
                            > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                            > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                            > > > what he is
                            > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                            > > > citizen) who
                            > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                            > incident.
                            > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                            > > > stop the
                            > > > > > incident.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                            > > > whether or not
                            > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                            > > > makes sense
                            > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                            > > > conversation was
                            > > > > > about.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                            > > > Committee is not
                            > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                            > fact,
                            > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                            > > > member of
                            > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                            > > > Even in the
                            > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                            > > > appoint
                            > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                            > > > in the
                            > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                            > > > antipathy
                            > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                            > > > Contract
                            > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                            > > > choosing the
                            > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                            > > > to be an
                            > > > > > absurd position.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Charley Cowens
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                            > > > the event
                            > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                            > > > conversation
                            > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                            > > > that Mr.
                            > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                            > be that
                            > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                            > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                            > > > spent time
                            > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                            > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                            > > > costs and the
                            > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                            > > > last year
                            > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                            > > > many of us can
                            > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                            > > > many of us
                            > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                            > > > couple of
                            > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                            > Comittee
                            > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                            > > > the school
                            > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                            > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                            > > > Advisory
                            > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                            > > > committee was
                            > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                            > > > numbers,
                            > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                            > > > numbers and
                            > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                            > > > their side of
                            > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                            > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                            > that the
                            > > > > > > teacher
                            > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                            > say what
                            > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                            > > > to kill
                            > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                            > > > letter
                            > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                            > > > school board
                            > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                            > > > intimidate me."
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                            > > > Did the
                            > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                            > Was he
                            > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                            > > > not the
                            > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                            > cannot
                            > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                            > years.
                            > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                            > this a
                            > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                            > > > over an
                            > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                            > > > would hope
                            > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                            > confident
                            > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                            > > > no way
                            > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                            > in the
                            > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                            > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                            > Travel.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Diamel@aol.com
                            Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be willing to help you. Diane Brown ************************************** Get a
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                              Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be
                              willing to help you.

                              Diane Brown



                              ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
                              http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • rebecca494
                              I think Cathy s posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going around yelling at
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                I think Cathy's posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board
                                Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going
                                around yelling at each other; shouting obscenities and generally
                                acting like jerks how can we expect the youth to behave differently?

                                I don't think saying we should just get on with more important issues
                                will curb the problem until we deal with the issue of modeling and the
                                role that all of us adults are playing in the deterioration of the
                                behavior of our youth. They model after the adults in their life.

                                Since I know of many incidents of Mr. Ramsey losing his temper in
                                public during the last 14 years I do not think he is a good role model
                                for our youth and I would say that he is not successfully working on
                                controlling his temper. Maybe the Board should require an anger
                                management course for him to avoid a censure.

                                What could the high school students have thought who witnessed that
                                incident? What do our youth think when they see their adults modeling
                                poor behavior?

                                Of course the educational business of the district has to be conducted
                                no matter what, but I do think the Board has to set some limits on
                                continuous angry outbursts.

                                Rebecca Hazlewood






                                --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > There are two issues here.
                                > First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and
                                I'm
                                > sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                > have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I
                                disagreed
                                > with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                > report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                > example for our kids.
                                > Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                > UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However,
                                the
                                > flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                > assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known
                                him?
                                > Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                > is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt
                                that
                                > being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                > district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                > It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                > member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                > when there are important issues at hand.
                                >
                                > Cathy
                                >
                                > jim cowen wrote:
                                >
                                > > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                > > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                > > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                > > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                > > cause behind the incident.
                                > >
                                > > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                > > between districts and unions.
                                > > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between
                                Ramsey
                                > > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                > > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                > > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                > > stress.
                                > >
                                > > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                > > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                > > person committing the assault.
                                > >
                                > > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                > >
                                > > Jim
                                > >
                                > > ---------------------------------
                                > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • rebecca494
                                Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this district since I
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                  Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to
                                  say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this
                                  district since I first met her in 1991, during bankruptcy meetings.
                                  Now of course each of us is unique and has our own way, but I must
                                  hand it to her for her aplomb, tenacity and dedication, and being a
                                  very positive role model for our youth.

                                  Rebecca





                                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --Ralph:
                                  >
                                  > I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but
                                  plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a
                                  teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our
                                  students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide
                                  information to teachers and principals about all resources that are
                                  available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education
                                  psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology,
                                  speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug
                                  intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes
                                  on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that
                                  all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases
                                  intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware
                                  of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed,
                                  or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like
                                  teachers are in the same boat.
                                  >
                                  > It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they
                                  will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems;
                                  and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for
                                  intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly
                                  and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place
                                  to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders.
                                  Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to
                                  another, without using the available services that are to help
                                  students and teachers.
                                  >
                                  > There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can
                                  not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information
                                  about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment
                                  schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the
                                  district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful,
                                  therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help
                                  them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and
                                  student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning
                                  environment or the society.
                                  >
                                  > So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in
                                  the Fall?
                                  >
                                  > Scottie Smith
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                  > >
                                  > > Scottie,
                                  > >
                                  > > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                  > >
                                  > > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                  > > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                  > > student.
                                  > >
                                  > > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                  > > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                  > > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                  > > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                  > > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                  > > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                  > > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                  > > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                  > > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                  > > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                  > > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                  > > that they need and deserve.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ralph
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --Ralph:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                  > > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                  > > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                  > > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                  > > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                  > > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their
                                  behavior.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Scottie Smith
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                  > > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's
                                  behavior
                                  > > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or
                                  normal
                                  > > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example
                                  for young
                                  > > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a
                                  long
                                  > > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical
                                  safety of
                                  > > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting,
                                  other
                                  > > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                  > > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.).
                                  Personally,
                                  > > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                  > > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It
                                  sounds just
                                  > > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second
                                  chances" in
                                  > > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some
                                  point it is
                                  > > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their
                                  parents,
                                  > > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem
                                  student
                                  > > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                  > > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                  > > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student
                                  is just
                                  > > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Ralph
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident
                                  fairly
                                  > > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another
                                  board
                                  > > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the
                                  incident.
                                  > > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned
                                  about adult
                                  > > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                  > > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our
                                  behavior. I am
                                  > > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                  > > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                  > > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many
                                  students are
                                  > > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to
                                  help the
                                  > > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the
                                  increase
                                  > > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year,
                                  therefore,
                                  > > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the
                                  type of
                                  > > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not
                                  had the
                                  > > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Scottie Smith
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Tammy,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story
                                  versus the
                                  > > > > original
                                  > > > > > > incident?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                  > > > > teacher and
                                  > > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                  > > > > public place at
                                  > > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government
                                  official and
                                  > > > > a total
                                  > > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an
                                  at least
                                  > > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                  > > > > what he is
                                  > > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                  > > > > citizen) who
                                  > > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                  > > incident.
                                  > > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually
                                  intervene to
                                  > > > > stop the
                                  > > > > > > incident.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                  > > > > whether or not
                                  > > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or
                                  recall)
                                  > > > > makes sense
                                  > > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                  > > > > conversation was
                                  > > > > > > about.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                  > > > > Committee is not
                                  > > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                  > > fact,
                                  > > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be
                                  allowed to be
                                  > > > > member of
                                  > > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                  > > > > Even in the
                                  > > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not
                                  formally
                                  > > > > appoint
                                  > > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest
                                  members
                                  > > > > in the
                                  > > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part
                                  of the
                                  > > > > antipathy
                                  > > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                  > > > > Contract
                                  > > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                  > > > > choosing the
                                  > > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't
                                  consider it
                                  > > > > to be an
                                  > > > > > > absurd position.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the
                                  time of
                                  > > > > the event
                                  > > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                  > > > > conversation
                                  > > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why
                                  is it
                                  > > > > that Mr.
                                  > > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                  > > be that
                                  > > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels
                                  regarding the
                                  > > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have
                                  really
                                  > > > > spent time
                                  > > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD
                                  budget, the
                                  > > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                  > > > > costs and the
                                  > > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that
                                  in the
                                  > > > > last year
                                  > > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                                  How
                                  > > > > many of us can
                                  > > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining
                                  enrollment? How
                                  > > > > many of us
                                  > > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                  > > > > couple of
                                  > > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                  > > Comittee
                                  > > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us
                                  follow
                                  > > > > the school
                                  > > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                  > > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the
                                  Budget
                                  > > > > Advisory
                                  > > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point
                                  of the
                                  > > > > committee was
                                  > > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to
                                  analyze
                                  > > > > numbers,
                                  > > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to
                                  understand the
                                  > > > > numbers and
                                  > > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help
                                  us with
                                  > > > > their side of
                                  > > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                  > > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                  > > that the
                                  > > > > > > > teacher
                                  > > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                  > > say what
                                  > > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was
                                  going
                                  > > > > to kill
                                  > > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the
                                  teacher's
                                  > > > > letter
                                  > > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                  > > > > school board
                                  > > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                  > > > > intimidate me."
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat
                                  was.
                                  > > > > Did the
                                  > > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                  > > Was he
                                  > > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him?
                                  That is
                                  > > > > not the
                                  > > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                  > > cannot
                                  > > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                  > > years.
                                  > > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                  > > this a
                                  > > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a
                                  teacher fired
                                  > > > > over an
                                  > > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                  > > > > would hope
                                  > > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                  > > confident
                                  > > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher,
                                  that is
                                  > > > > no way
                                  > > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                  > > in the
                                  > > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                  > > Travel.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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