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Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech

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  • Tammera Campbell
    I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation. I am hoping that everyone will focus
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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      I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation.

      I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board meetings and bother to understand the budget
      presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story? Local One has been there.
      Tammy Campbell

      gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
      I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
      alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
      shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
      the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
      cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
      authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

      So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
      teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
      frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
      same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

      Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
      recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
      What kind of message does that send?

      Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
      legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
      argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
      our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
      that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

      Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
      to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
      article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.






      ---------------------------------
      Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • spricco@comcast.net
      Just a minute. I ve been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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        Just a minute. I've been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is certainly not free speech. The issue is bullying behavior. Take personalities out of this for a moment. Was the behavior something that you or I or anyone would tolerate from a student? Would it be tolerated in dealing with another adult? While I do not know what actually transpired, if there was bullying behavior, it needs to be stopped.


        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...>

        > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
        > rather than months later. Just an observation.
        >
        > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that
        > was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and
        > the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not
        > yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many
        > people out there have really spent time understanding public educational
        > funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased
        > health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand
        > that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
        > How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment?
        > How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
        > couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
        > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board
        > meetings and bother to understand the budget
        > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings
        > to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring
        > stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the
        > numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger
        > picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story?
        > Local One has been there.
        > Tammy Campbell
        >
        > gregorychang wrote:
        > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
        > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
        > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
        > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
        > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
        > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
        >
        > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
        > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
        > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
        > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
        >
        > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
        > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
        > What kind of message does that send?
        >
        > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
        > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
        > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
        > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
        > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
        >
        > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
        > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
        > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Charley Cowens
        Tammy, Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original incident? Let s focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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          Tammy,

          Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
          incident?

          Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
          citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
          El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
          stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
          proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
          saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
          had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
          Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
          incident.

          It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
          a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
          in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
          about.

          Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
          to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
          originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
          the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
          compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
          members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
          appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
          of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
          requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
          teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
          absurd position.

          Charley Cowens

          On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
          > rather than months later. Just an observation.
          >
          > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
          > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
          > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
          > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
          > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
          > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
          > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
          > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
          > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
          > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
          > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
          > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
          > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
          > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
          > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
          > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
          > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
          > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
          > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
          > the story? Local One has been there.
          > Tammy Campbell
          >
          > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
          > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
          > teacher
          > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
          > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
          > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
          > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
          > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
          >
          > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
          > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
          > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
          > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
          >
          > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
          > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
          > What kind of message does that send?
          >
          > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
          > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
          > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
          > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
          > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
          >
          > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
          > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
          > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rcs101@att.net
          --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident. Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore, the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the opportunity with support, for a 2 o
            r 3rd chance.

            Scottie Smith




            -------------- Original message ----------------------
            From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
            >
            > Tammy,
            >
            > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
            > incident?
            >
            > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
            > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
            > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
            > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
            > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
            > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
            > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
            > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
            > incident.
            >
            > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
            > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
            > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
            > about.
            >
            > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
            > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
            > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
            > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
            > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
            > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
            > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
            > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
            > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
            > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
            > absurd position.
            >
            > Charley Cowens
            >
            > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
            > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
            > >
            > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
            > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
            > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
            > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
            > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
            > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
            > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
            > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
            > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
            > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
            > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
            > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
            > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
            > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
            > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
            > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
            > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
            > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
            > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
            > > the story? Local One has been there.
            > > Tammy Campbell
            > >
            > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
            > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
            > > teacher
            > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
            > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
            > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
            > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
            > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
            > >
            > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
            > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
            > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
            > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
            > >
            > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
            > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
            > > What kind of message does that send?
            > >
            > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
            > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
            > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
            > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
            > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
            > >
            > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
            > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
            > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Ralph Bedwell
            Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are being made other than Mr. Ramsey s? While I do strongly feel that a school district
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
              being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?

              While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
              needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
              human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
              people, I think these are two separate issues.

              Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
              pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
              other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
              forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
              educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
              based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
              tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
              from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
              order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
              just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
              teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
              to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
              that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
              means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
              moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)

              Ralph


              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
              >
              > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
              recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
              member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
              Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
              behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
              conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
              constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
              students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
              mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
              expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
              students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
              in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
              the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
              rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
              opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
              >
              > Scottie Smith

              > -------------- Original message ----------------------
              > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
              > >
              > > Tammy,
              > >
              > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
              original
              > > incident?
              > >
              > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
              teacher and
              > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
              public place at
              > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
              a total
              > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
              > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
              what he is
              > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
              citizen) who
              > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
              > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
              stop the
              > > incident.
              > >
              > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
              whether or not
              > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
              makes sense
              > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
              conversation was
              > > about.
              > >
              > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
              Committee is not
              > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
              > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
              member of
              > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
              Even in the
              > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
              appoint
              > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
              in the
              > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
              antipathy
              > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
              Contract
              > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
              choosing the
              > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
              to be an
              > > absurd position.
              > >
              > > Charley Cowens
              > >
              > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
              the event
              > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
              > > >
              > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
              conversation
              > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
              that Mr.
              > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
              > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
              > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
              spent time
              > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
              > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
              costs and the
              > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
              last year
              > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
              many of us can
              > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
              many of us
              > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
              couple of
              > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
              > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
              the school
              > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
              > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
              Advisory
              > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
              committee was
              > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
              numbers,
              > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
              numbers and
              > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
              their side of
              > > > the story? Local One has been there.
              > > > Tammy Campbell
              > > >
              > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
              > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
              > > > teacher
              > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
              > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
              to kill
              > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
              letter
              > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
              school board
              > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
              intimidate me."
              > > >
              > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
              Did the
              > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
              > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
              not the
              > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
              > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
              > > > What kind of message does that send?
              > > >
              > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
              > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
              over an
              > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
              would hope
              > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
              > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
              > > >
              > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
              no way
              > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
              > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • rcs101@att.net
              --Ralph: I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --Ralph:

                I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.



                Scottie Smith




                -------------- Original message ----------------------
                From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                >
                > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                >
                > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                >
                > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                >
                > Ralph
                >
                >
                > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                > >
                > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                > >
                > > Scottie Smith
                >
                > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                > > >
                > > > Tammy,
                > > >
                > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                > original
                > > > incident?
                > > >
                > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                > teacher and
                > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                > public place at
                > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                > a total
                > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                > what he is
                > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                > citizen) who
                > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                > stop the
                > > > incident.
                > > >
                > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                > whether or not
                > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                > makes sense
                > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                > conversation was
                > > > about.
                > > >
                > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                > Committee is not
                > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                > member of
                > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                > Even in the
                > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                > appoint
                > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                > in the
                > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                > antipathy
                > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                > Contract
                > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                > choosing the
                > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                > to be an
                > > > absurd position.
                > > >
                > > > Charley Cowens
                > > >
                > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                > the event
                > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                > > > >
                > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                > conversation
                > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                > that Mr.
                > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                > spent time
                > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                > costs and the
                > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                > last year
                > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                > many of us can
                > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                > many of us
                > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                > couple of
                > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                > the school
                > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                > Advisory
                > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                > committee was
                > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                > numbers,
                > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                > numbers and
                > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                > their side of
                > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                > > > > Tammy Campbell
                > > > >
                > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                > > > > teacher
                > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                > to kill
                > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                > letter
                > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                > school board
                > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                > intimidate me."
                > > > >
                > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                > Did the
                > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                > not the
                > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                > > > >
                > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                > > > >
                > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                > over an
                > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                > would hope
                > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                > > > >
                > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                > no way
                > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
              • Tammera Campbell
                Charley, It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Charley,
                  It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May, then?

                  Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than understanding the problem.

                  Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view. Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct conflict with what the unions may want.
                  Tammy Campbell


                  Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                  Tammy,

                  Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                  incident?

                  Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                  citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                  El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                  stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                  proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                  saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                  had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                  Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                  incident.

                  It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                  a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                  in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                  about.

                  Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                  to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                  originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                  the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                  compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                  members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                  appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                  of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                  requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                  teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                  absurd position.

                  Charley Cowens

                  On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                  > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                  >
                  > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                  > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                  > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                  > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                  > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                  > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                  > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                  > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                  > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                  > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                  > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                  > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                  > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                  > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                  > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                  > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                  > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                  > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                  > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                  > the story? Local One has been there.
                  > Tammy Campbell
                  >
                  > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                  > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                  > teacher
                  > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                  > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                  > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                  > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                  > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                  >
                  > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                  > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                  > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                  > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                  > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                  > What kind of message does that send?
                  >
                  > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                  > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                  > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                  > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                  > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                  >
                  > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                  > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                  > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  ---------------------------------
                  Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                  Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • petr_loubal
                  As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate speech, unlike
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it
                    seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate
                    speech, unlike intemperate action, should be censored (with opinions
                    split more or less equally). The more recent comments question the
                    timing and deal with the root cause and motives.

                    This evolution could be seen as a good example of "collective wisdom"
                    at work in our local internet setting. (See, for instance,
                    http://wikinomics.com/ for a more thorough examination of this
                    phenomenon in the world-at-large).

                    Let's hope this is noticed. Maybe it is time to hear from the
                    participants in the initial confrontation.

                    Turn the issue into a learning experience, and get on with more
                    substantial concerns.

                    Peter
                    ------------------------------------
                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Tammera Campbell
                    <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Charley,
                    > It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we
                    are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it
                    occurred in May, then?
                    >
                    > Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong.
                    What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident
                    rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to
                    fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus
                    on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and
                    work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have
                    these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so
                    many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than
                    understanding the problem.
                    >
                    > Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the
                    mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget
                    transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been
                    stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I
                    also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned
                    to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent
                    that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the
                    budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view.
                    Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union
                    issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that
                    we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and
                    health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct
                    conflict with what the unions may want.
                    > Tammy Campbell
                    >
                    >
                    > Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                    > Tammy,
                    >
                    > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                    original
                    > incident?
                    >
                    > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                    teacher and
                    > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public
                    place at
                    > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a
                    total
                    > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                    > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what
                    he is
                    > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                    citizen) who
                    > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                    > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                    stop the
                    > incident.
                    >
                    > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether
                    or not
                    > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                    makes sense
                    > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                    conversation was
                    > about.
                    >
                    > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee
                    is not
                    > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                    > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                    member of
                    > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even
                    in the
                    > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                    appoint
                    > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                    in the
                    > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                    antipathy
                    > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                    > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                    choosing the
                    > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                    to be an
                    > absurd position.
                    >
                    > Charley Cowens
                    >
                    > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                    the event
                    > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                    > >
                    > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                    conversation
                    > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                    > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                    > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                    > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                    spent time
                    > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                    > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs
                    and the
                    > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                    last year
                    > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many
                    of us can
                    > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                    many of us
                    > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                    > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                    > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the
                    school
                    > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                    > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                    > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                    committee was
                    > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                    numbers,
                    > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                    numbers and
                    > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                    their side of
                    > > the story? Local One has been there.
                    > > Tammy Campbell
                    > >
                    > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                    > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                    > > teacher
                    > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                    > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                    > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                    > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school
                    board
                    > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                    intimidate me."
                    > >
                    > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                    > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                    > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                    > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                    > >
                    > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                    > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                    > > What kind of message does that send?
                    > >
                    > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                    > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                    over an
                    > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would
                    hope
                    > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                    > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                    > >
                    > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                    > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                    > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                    > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • jim cowen
                    Tammera Campbell wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey s behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident.



                      _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict between districts and unions.
                      This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and union/district conflicts, is it???
                      That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work stress.

                      When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it - what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the person committing the assault.

                      The root cause is Ramsey.

                      Jim



                      ---------------------------------
                      Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                      Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Cathy Travlos
                      There are two issues here. First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I m sure he d agree. He s not the only one who needs to do this
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There are two issues here.
                        First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I'm
                        sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                        have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I disagreed
                        with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                        report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                        example for our kids.
                        Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                        UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However, the
                        flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                        assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known him?
                        Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                        is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt that
                        being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                        district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                        It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                        member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                        when there are important issues at hand.

                        Cathy

                        jim cowen wrote:

                        > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                        > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                        > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                        > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                        > cause behind the incident.
                        >
                        > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                        > between districts and unions.
                        > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey
                        > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                        > union/district conflicts, is it???
                        > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                        > stress.
                        >
                        > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                        > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                        > person committing the assault.
                        >
                        > The root cause is Ramsey.
                        >
                        > Jim
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                        > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Ralph Bedwell
                        Scottie, Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars. You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on personal whim. This is not
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Scottie,

                          Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                          You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                          personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                          student.

                          I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                          we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                          school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                          or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                          etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                          personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                          But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                          essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                          optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                          put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                          can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                          that they need and deserve.

                          Ralph

                          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --Ralph:
                          >
                          > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                          district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                          need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                          of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                          expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                          momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Scottie Smith
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                          > >
                          > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                          > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                          > >
                          > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                          > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                          > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                          > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                          > >
                          > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                          > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                          > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                          > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                          > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                          > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                          > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                          > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                          > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                          > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                          > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                          > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                          > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                          > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                          > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                          > >
                          > > Ralph
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                          > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                          > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                          > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                          > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                          > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                          > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                          > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                          > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                          > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                          > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                          > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                          > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                          > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                          > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                          > > >
                          > > > Scottie Smith
                          > >
                          > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Tammy,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                          > > original
                          > > > > incident?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                          > > teacher and
                          > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                          > > public place at
                          > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                          > > a total
                          > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                          > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                          > > what he is
                          > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                          > > citizen) who
                          > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                          incident.
                          > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                          > > stop the
                          > > > > incident.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                          > > whether or not
                          > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                          > > makes sense
                          > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                          > > conversation was
                          > > > > about.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                          > > Committee is not
                          > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                          fact,
                          > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                          > > member of
                          > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                          > > Even in the
                          > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                          > > appoint
                          > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                          > > in the
                          > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                          > > antipathy
                          > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                          > > Contract
                          > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                          > > choosing the
                          > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                          > > to be an
                          > > > > absurd position.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Charley Cowens
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                          > > the event
                          > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                          > > conversation
                          > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                          > > that Mr.
                          > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                          be that
                          > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                          > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                          > > spent time
                          > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                          > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                          > > costs and the
                          > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                          > > last year
                          > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                          > > many of us can
                          > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                          > > many of us
                          > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                          > > couple of
                          > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                          Comittee
                          > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                          > > the school
                          > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                          > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                          > > Advisory
                          > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                          > > committee was
                          > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                          > > numbers,
                          > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                          > > numbers and
                          > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                          > > their side of
                          > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                          > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                          > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                          that the
                          > > > > > teacher
                          > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                          say what
                          > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                          > > to kill
                          > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                          > > letter
                          > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                          > > school board
                          > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                          > > intimidate me."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                          > > Did the
                          > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                          Was he
                          > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                          > > not the
                          > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                          cannot
                          > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                          years.
                          > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                          this a
                          > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                          > > over an
                          > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                          > > would hope
                          > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                          confident
                          > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                          > > no way
                          > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                          in the
                          > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                          Travel.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mike Wasilchin
                          Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night. At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night.



                            At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                            suspensions and expulsions. The data is not real accurate as the manner in
                            which the information is recorded varies from site to site and the
                            application of District/Site policies is not administered equitably.
                            Additionally, according to District data, students with discipline problems
                            are no longer just transferred from one school to the next. For the most
                            part, there are several types of programs that are being utilized to curb
                            student behavior at a particular site prior to suspending and expelling the
                            students. Some examples: CCC Probation department gets referrals from both
                            the D.A. (via court decisions) and principals (they identify students at
                            risk to intervene before they get in the system; there are a few mentor
                            programs that are being utilized that have several levels to be able to
                            offer support to repeat offenders; there are summits that students at risk
                            are able to attend and then become proactive agents of change at their
                            respective sites; peer counseling and conflict mediation is growing at both
                            the elementary and secondary levels and appears to be having an impact; and
                            the District is in the process of implementing character development at the
                            middle schools, which is already in place in several elementary and proving
                            to be quite successful; and there are also several community services that
                            are available to youth that meet certain criteria (foster care, Spanish
                            speaking, gang affiliations, etc.)



                            While the data from the District is not completely accurate, it is a
                            starting point. My position is that if you if you do not have accurate and
                            complete data, one does not know how successful or unsuccessful a program or
                            plan is. I have urged the District to ensure the data that is captured is
                            as accurate as possible and that the data be shared with the public in
                            several different arenas (Board of Education, District Safety Committee,
                            School Site Councils, etc.) The ultimate goal is to make the schools safer
                            through the implementation and ongoing modification of several different
                            programs and mechanisms such that students know the rules and acceptable
                            behaviors in the District and recognize the disciplines that will be
                            administered when rules are broken. This is something that has not been
                            consistently happening in this District for several years.



                            This is just interpretation by attending all of the District Safety
                            Committee Meetings for 2006/07 and following the safety issues on the Board
                            of Education agendas.



                            Michael Wasilchin

                            Business Agent

                            Public Employees Union, Local One

                            4197 Lakeside Dr., Suite # 170

                            Richmond, CA 94806

                            Telephone # - (510) 222 - 5012

                            Fax # - (510) 222 - 8858



                            _____

                            From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Ralph Bedwell
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:20 PM
                            To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech



                            Scottie,

                            Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                            You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                            personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                            student.

                            I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                            we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                            school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                            or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                            etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                            personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                            But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                            essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                            optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                            put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                            can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                            that they need and deserve.

                            Ralph

                            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
                            rcs101@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --Ralph:
                            >
                            > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                            district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                            need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                            of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                            expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                            momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Scottie Smith
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                            > >
                            > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                            > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                            > >
                            > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                            > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                            > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                            > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                            > >
                            > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                            > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                            > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                            > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                            > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                            > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                            > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                            > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                            > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                            > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                            > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                            > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                            > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                            > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                            > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                            > >
                            > > Ralph
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                            ups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                            > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                            > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                            > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                            > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                            > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                            > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                            > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                            > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                            > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                            > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                            > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                            > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                            > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                            > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                            > > >
                            > > > Scottie Smith
                            > >
                            > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tammy,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                            > > original
                            > > > > incident?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                            > > teacher and
                            > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                            > > public place at
                            > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                            > > a total
                            > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                            > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                            > > what he is
                            > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                            > > citizen) who
                            > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                            incident.
                            > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                            > > stop the
                            > > > > incident.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                            > > whether or not
                            > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                            > > makes sense
                            > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                            > > conversation was
                            > > > > about.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                            > > Committee is not
                            > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                            fact,
                            > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                            > > member of
                            > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                            > > Even in the
                            > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                            > > appoint
                            > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                            > > in the
                            > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                            > > antipathy
                            > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                            > > Contract
                            > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                            > > choosing the
                            > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                            > > to be an
                            > > > > absurd position.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Charley Cowens
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                            > > the event
                            > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                            > > conversation
                            > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                            > > that Mr.
                            > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                            be that
                            > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                            > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                            > > spent time
                            > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                            > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                            > > costs and the
                            > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                            > > last year
                            > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                            > > many of us can
                            > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                            > > many of us
                            > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                            > > couple of
                            > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                            Comittee
                            > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                            > > the school
                            > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                            > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                            > > Advisory
                            > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                            > > committee was
                            > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                            > > numbers,
                            > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                            > > numbers and
                            > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                            > > their side of
                            > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                            > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                            > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                            that the
                            > > > > > teacher
                            > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                            say what
                            > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                            > > to kill
                            > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                            > > letter
                            > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                            > > school board
                            > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                            > > intimidate me."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                            > > Did the
                            > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                            Was he
                            > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                            > > not the
                            > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                            cannot
                            > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                            years.
                            > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                            this a
                            > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                            > > over an
                            > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                            > > would hope
                            > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                            confident
                            > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                            > > no way
                            > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                            in the
                            > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > ---------------------------------
                            > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                            Travel.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • rcs101@att.net
                            --Ralph: I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                              --Ralph:

                              I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide information to teachers and principals about all resources that are available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology, speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed, or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like teachers are in the same boat.

                              It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems; and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders. Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to another, without using the available services that are to help students and teachers.

                              There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful, therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning environment or the society.

                              So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in the Fall?

                              Scottie Smith




                              -------------- Original message ----------------------
                              From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                              >
                              > Scottie,
                              >
                              > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                              >
                              > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                              > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                              > student.
                              >
                              > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                              > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                              > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                              > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                              > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                              > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                              > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                              > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                              > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                              > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                              > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                              > that they need and deserve.
                              >
                              > Ralph
                              >
                              > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --Ralph:
                              > >
                              > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                              > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                              > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                              > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                              > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                              > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Scottie Smith
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                              > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                              > > >
                              > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                              > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                              > > >
                              > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                              > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                              > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                              > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                              > > >
                              > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                              > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                              > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                              > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                              > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                              > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                              > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                              > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                              > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                              > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                              > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                              > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                              > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                              > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                              > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                              > > >
                              > > > Ralph
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                              > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                              > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                              > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                              > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                              > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                              > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                              > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                              > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                              > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                              > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                              > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                              > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                              > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                              > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Scottie Smith
                              > > >
                              > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                              > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Tammy,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                              > > > original
                              > > > > > incident?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                              > > > teacher and
                              > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                              > > > public place at
                              > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                              > > > a total
                              > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                              > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                              > > > what he is
                              > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                              > > > citizen) who
                              > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                              > incident.
                              > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                              > > > stop the
                              > > > > > incident.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                              > > > whether or not
                              > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                              > > > makes sense
                              > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                              > > > conversation was
                              > > > > > about.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                              > > > Committee is not
                              > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                              > fact,
                              > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                              > > > member of
                              > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                              > > > Even in the
                              > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                              > > > appoint
                              > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                              > > > in the
                              > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                              > > > antipathy
                              > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                              > > > Contract
                              > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                              > > > choosing the
                              > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                              > > > to be an
                              > > > > > absurd position.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Charley Cowens
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                              > > > the event
                              > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                              > > > conversation
                              > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                              > > > that Mr.
                              > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                              > be that
                              > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                              > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                              > > > spent time
                              > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                              > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                              > > > costs and the
                              > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                              > > > last year
                              > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                              > > > many of us can
                              > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                              > > > many of us
                              > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                              > > > couple of
                              > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                              > Comittee
                              > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                              > > > the school
                              > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                              > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                              > > > Advisory
                              > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                              > > > committee was
                              > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                              > > > numbers,
                              > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                              > > > numbers and
                              > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                              > > > their side of
                              > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                              > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                              > that the
                              > > > > > > teacher
                              > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                              > say what
                              > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                              > > > to kill
                              > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                              > > > letter
                              > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                              > > > school board
                              > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                              > > > intimidate me."
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                              > > > Did the
                              > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                              > Was he
                              > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                              > > > not the
                              > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                              > cannot
                              > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                              > years.
                              > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                              > this a
                              > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                              > > > over an
                              > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                              > > > would hope
                              > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                              > confident
                              > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                              > > > no way
                              > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                              > in the
                              > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                              > Travel.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Diamel@aol.com
                              Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be willing to help you. Diane Brown ************************************** Get a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be
                                willing to help you.

                                Diane Brown



                                ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
                                http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • rebecca494
                                I think Cathy s posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going around yelling at
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                  I think Cathy's posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board
                                  Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going
                                  around yelling at each other; shouting obscenities and generally
                                  acting like jerks how can we expect the youth to behave differently?

                                  I don't think saying we should just get on with more important issues
                                  will curb the problem until we deal with the issue of modeling and the
                                  role that all of us adults are playing in the deterioration of the
                                  behavior of our youth. They model after the adults in their life.

                                  Since I know of many incidents of Mr. Ramsey losing his temper in
                                  public during the last 14 years I do not think he is a good role model
                                  for our youth and I would say that he is not successfully working on
                                  controlling his temper. Maybe the Board should require an anger
                                  management course for him to avoid a censure.

                                  What could the high school students have thought who witnessed that
                                  incident? What do our youth think when they see their adults modeling
                                  poor behavior?

                                  Of course the educational business of the district has to be conducted
                                  no matter what, but I do think the Board has to set some limits on
                                  continuous angry outbursts.

                                  Rebecca Hazlewood






                                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > There are two issues here.
                                  > First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and
                                  I'm
                                  > sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                  > have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I
                                  disagreed
                                  > with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                  > report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                  > example for our kids.
                                  > Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                  > UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However,
                                  the
                                  > flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                  > assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known
                                  him?
                                  > Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                  > is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt
                                  that
                                  > being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                  > district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                  > It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                  > member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                  > when there are important issues at hand.
                                  >
                                  > Cathy
                                  >
                                  > jim cowen wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                  > > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                  > > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                  > > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                  > > cause behind the incident.
                                  > >
                                  > > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                  > > between districts and unions.
                                  > > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between
                                  Ramsey
                                  > > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                  > > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                  > > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                  > > stress.
                                  > >
                                  > > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                  > > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                  > > person committing the assault.
                                  > >
                                  > > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jim
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                  > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • rebecca494
                                  Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this district since I
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                    Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to
                                    say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this
                                    district since I first met her in 1991, during bankruptcy meetings.
                                    Now of course each of us is unique and has our own way, but I must
                                    hand it to her for her aplomb, tenacity and dedication, and being a
                                    very positive role model for our youth.

                                    Rebecca





                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --Ralph:
                                    >
                                    > I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but
                                    plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a
                                    teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our
                                    students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide
                                    information to teachers and principals about all resources that are
                                    available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education
                                    psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology,
                                    speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug
                                    intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes
                                    on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that
                                    all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases
                                    intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware
                                    of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed,
                                    or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like
                                    teachers are in the same boat.
                                    >
                                    > It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they
                                    will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems;
                                    and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for
                                    intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly
                                    and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place
                                    to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders.
                                    Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to
                                    another, without using the available services that are to help
                                    students and teachers.
                                    >
                                    > There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can
                                    not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information
                                    about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment
                                    schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the
                                    district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful,
                                    therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help
                                    them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and
                                    student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning
                                    environment or the society.
                                    >
                                    > So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in
                                    the Fall?
                                    >
                                    > Scottie Smith
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                    > >
                                    > > Scottie,
                                    > >
                                    > > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                    > >
                                    > > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                    > > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                    > > student.
                                    > >
                                    > > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                    > > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                    > > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                    > > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                    > > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                    > > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                    > > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                    > > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                    > > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                    > > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                    > > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                    > > that they need and deserve.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ralph
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --Ralph:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                    > > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                    > > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                    > > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                    > > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                    > > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their
                                    behavior.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Scottie Smith
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                    > > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's
                                    behavior
                                    > > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or
                                    normal
                                    > > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example
                                    for young
                                    > > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a
                                    long
                                    > > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical
                                    safety of
                                    > > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting,
                                    other
                                    > > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                    > > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.).
                                    Personally,
                                    > > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                    > > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It
                                    sounds just
                                    > > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second
                                    chances" in
                                    > > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some
                                    point it is
                                    > > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their
                                    parents,
                                    > > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem
                                    student
                                    > > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                    > > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                    > > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student
                                    is just
                                    > > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ralph
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident
                                    fairly
                                    > > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another
                                    board
                                    > > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the
                                    incident.
                                    > > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned
                                    about adult
                                    > > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                    > > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our
                                    behavior. I am
                                    > > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                    > > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                    > > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many
                                    students are
                                    > > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to
                                    help the
                                    > > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the
                                    increase
                                    > > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year,
                                    therefore,
                                    > > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the
                                    type of
                                    > > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not
                                    had the
                                    > > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Scottie Smith
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Tammy,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story
                                    versus the
                                    > > > > original
                                    > > > > > > incident?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                    > > > > teacher and
                                    > > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                    > > > > public place at
                                    > > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government
                                    official and
                                    > > > > a total
                                    > > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an
                                    at least
                                    > > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                    > > > > what he is
                                    > > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                    > > > > citizen) who
                                    > > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                    > > incident.
                                    > > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually
                                    intervene to
                                    > > > > stop the
                                    > > > > > > incident.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                    > > > > whether or not
                                    > > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or
                                    recall)
                                    > > > > makes sense
                                    > > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                    > > > > conversation was
                                    > > > > > > about.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                    > > > > Committee is not
                                    > > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                    > > fact,
                                    > > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be
                                    allowed to be
                                    > > > > member of
                                    > > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                    > > > > Even in the
                                    > > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not
                                    formally
                                    > > > > appoint
                                    > > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest
                                    members
                                    > > > > in the
                                    > > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part
                                    of the
                                    > > > > antipathy
                                    > > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                    > > > > Contract
                                    > > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                    > > > > choosing the
                                    > > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't
                                    consider it
                                    > > > > to be an
                                    > > > > > > absurd position.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the
                                    time of
                                    > > > > the event
                                    > > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                    > > > > conversation
                                    > > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why
                                    is it
                                    > > > > that Mr.
                                    > > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                    > > be that
                                    > > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels
                                    regarding the
                                    > > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have
                                    really
                                    > > > > spent time
                                    > > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD
                                    budget, the
                                    > > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                    > > > > costs and the
                                    > > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that
                                    in the
                                    > > > > last year
                                    > > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                                    How
                                    > > > > many of us can
                                    > > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining
                                    enrollment? How
                                    > > > > many of us
                                    > > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                    > > > > couple of
                                    > > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                    > > Comittee
                                    > > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us
                                    follow
                                    > > > > the school
                                    > > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                    > > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the
                                    Budget
                                    > > > > Advisory
                                    > > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point
                                    of the
                                    > > > > committee was
                                    > > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to
                                    analyze
                                    > > > > numbers,
                                    > > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to
                                    understand the
                                    > > > > numbers and
                                    > > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help
                                    us with
                                    > > > > their side of
                                    > > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                    > > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                    > > that the
                                    > > > > > > > teacher
                                    > > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                    > > say what
                                    > > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was
                                    going
                                    > > > > to kill
                                    > > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the
                                    teacher's
                                    > > > > letter
                                    > > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                    > > > > school board
                                    > > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                    > > > > intimidate me."
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat
                                    was.
                                    > > > > Did the
                                    > > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                    > > Was he
                                    > > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him?
                                    That is
                                    > > > > not the
                                    > > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                    > > cannot
                                    > > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                    > > years.
                                    > > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                    > > this a
                                    > > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a
                                    teacher fired
                                    > > > > over an
                                    > > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                    > > > > would hope
                                    > > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                    > > confident
                                    > > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher,
                                    that is
                                    > > > > no way
                                    > > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                    > > in the
                                    > > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                    > > Travel.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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