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Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech

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  • gregorychang
    Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be better served by
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
      Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound
      technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
      better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in my
      limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
      sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a more
      appropriate manner.

      Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat laughable.
      To file a police report because he got in an argument and was yelled
      at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
      feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other adults
      in different professions filed police reports every time they were
      yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
      paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget it
      and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that Mr.
      Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike the
      previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
      People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real world!

      I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
      she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
      and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
      did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
      probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the debate.

      We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
      challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
      passion although I hope in the future he can control it and channel
      it in other ways.

      The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the tension
      between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to bury
      their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
      district faces many challenges. How can we work productively towards
      solving them if we are not all on the same page?

      As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a family
      headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
      easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
      generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
      the students and do not interact as much with other adults as those
      in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom and
      their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and disagrees
      passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
      the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on personal
      experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
      there will be exceptions to this observation.)
    • gregorychang
      I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what shape or form the threat
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
        I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
        alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
        shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
        the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
        cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
        authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

        So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
        teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
        frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
        same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

        Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
        recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
        What kind of message does that send?

        Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
        legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
        argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
        our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
        that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

        Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
        to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
        article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
      • gawolinsky
        I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole; money better spent on teacher
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
          I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not
          initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole;
          money better spent on teacher salaries and educating the next
          generation who, one hopes, will be more effective stewards than our
          current one . . . Perhaps some of the savings could be spent on
          anger management counseling or workshops to help us keep civil
          discourse civil.

          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the
          sound
          > technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
          > better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in
          my
          > limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
          > sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a
          more
          > appropriate manner.
          >
          > Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat
          laughable.
          > To file a police report because he got in an argument and was
          yelled
          > at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
          > feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other
          adults
          > in different professions filed police reports every time they were
          > yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
          > paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget
          it
          > and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that
          Mr.
          > Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike
          the
          > previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
          > People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real
          world!
          >
          > I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
          > she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
          > and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
          > did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
          > probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the
          debate.
          >
          > We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
          > challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
          > passion although I hope in the future he can control it and
          channel
          > it in other ways.
          >
          > The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the
          tension
          > between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to
          bury
          > their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
          > district faces many challenges. How can we work productively
          towards
          > solving them if we are not all on the same page?
          >
          > As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a
          family
          > headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
          > easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
          > generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
          > the students and do not interact as much with other adults as
          those
          > in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom
          and
          > their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and
          disagrees
          > passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
          > the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on
          personal
          > experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
          > there will be exceptions to this observation.)
          >
        • Ralph Bedwell
          I don t know anything about this particular situation other than what I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I m pretty sure that if a person is
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
            I don't know anything about this particular situation other than what
            I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I'm pretty sure that
            if a person is threatened with a physical attack and he/she reasonably
            believes that said attack will occur, that meets the legal definition
            of assault (people commonly get assault confused with battery, which
            is the actual physical battering, but they are not the same). I don't
            think a person would be a "wimp" if they filed charges in such an
            instance. Rather, they would be using the established system as it's
            intended and setting a good example for our young people who too often
            take matters into their own hands -- mainly so that they don't appear
            to be "wimpy" (disrespected) -- and perform tragic acts of violence.


            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
            > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
            > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
            > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
            > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
            > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
            >
            > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
            > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
            > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
            > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
            >
            > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
            > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
            > What kind of message does that send?
            >
            > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
            > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
            > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
            > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
            > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
            >
            > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
            > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
            > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
            >
          • Tammera Campbell
            I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation. I am hoping that everyone will focus
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
              I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation.

              I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board meetings and bother to understand the budget
              presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story? Local One has been there.
              Tammy Campbell

              gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
              I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
              alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
              shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
              the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
              cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
              authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

              So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
              teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
              frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
              same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

              Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
              recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
              What kind of message does that send?

              Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
              legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
              argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
              our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
              that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

              Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
              to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
              article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.






              ---------------------------------
              Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • spricco@comcast.net
              Just a minute. I ve been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
                Just a minute. I've been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is certainly not free speech. The issue is bullying behavior. Take personalities out of this for a moment. Was the behavior something that you or I or anyone would tolerate from a student? Would it be tolerated in dealing with another adult? While I do not know what actually transpired, if there was bullying behavior, it needs to be stopped.


                -------------- Original message --------------
                From: Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...>

                > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                >
                > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that
                > was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and
                > the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not
                > yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many
                > people out there have really spent time understanding public educational
                > funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased
                > health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand
                > that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                > How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment?
                > How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                > couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board
                > meetings and bother to understand the budget
                > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings
                > to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring
                > stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the
                > numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger
                > picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story?
                > Local One has been there.
                > Tammy Campbell
                >
                > gregorychang wrote:
                > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                >
                > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                >
                > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                > What kind of message does that send?
                >
                > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                >
                > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Charley Cowens
                Tammy, Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original incident? Let s focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
                  Tammy,

                  Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                  incident?

                  Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                  citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                  El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                  stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                  proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                  saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                  had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                  Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                  incident.

                  It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                  a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                  in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                  about.

                  Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                  to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                  originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                  the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                  compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                  members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                  appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                  of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                  requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                  teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                  absurd position.

                  Charley Cowens

                  On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                  > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                  >
                  > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                  > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                  > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                  > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                  > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                  > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                  > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                  > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                  > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                  > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                  > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                  > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                  > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                  > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                  > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                  > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                  > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                  > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                  > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                  > the story? Local One has been there.
                  > Tammy Campbell
                  >
                  > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                  > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                  > teacher
                  > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                  > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                  > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                  > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                  > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                  >
                  > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                  > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                  > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                  > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                  > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                  > What kind of message does that send?
                  >
                  > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                  > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                  > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                  > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                  > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                  >
                  > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                  > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                  > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rcs101@att.net
                  --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                    --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident. Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore, the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the opportunity with support, for a 2 o
                    r 3rd chance.

                    Scottie Smith




                    -------------- Original message ----------------------
                    From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                    >
                    > Tammy,
                    >
                    > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                    > incident?
                    >
                    > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                    > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                    > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                    > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                    > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                    > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                    > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                    > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                    > incident.
                    >
                    > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                    > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                    > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                    > about.
                    >
                    > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                    > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                    > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                    > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                    > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                    > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                    > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                    > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                    > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                    > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                    > absurd position.
                    >
                    > Charley Cowens
                    >
                    > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                    > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                    > >
                    > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                    > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                    > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                    > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                    > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                    > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                    > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                    > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                    > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                    > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                    > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                    > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                    > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                    > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                    > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                    > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                    > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                    > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                    > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                    > > the story? Local One has been there.
                    > > Tammy Campbell
                    > >
                    > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                    > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                    > > teacher
                    > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                    > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                    > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                    > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                    > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                    > >
                    > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                    > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                    > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                    > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                    > >
                    > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                    > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                    > > What kind of message does that send?
                    > >
                    > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                    > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                    > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                    > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                    > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                    > >
                    > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                    > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                    > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Ralph Bedwell
                    Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are being made other than Mr. Ramsey s? While I do strongly feel that a school district
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                      Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                      being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?

                      While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                      needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                      human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                      people, I think these are two separate issues.

                      Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                      pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                      other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                      forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                      educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                      based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                      tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                      from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                      order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                      just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                      teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                      to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                      that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                      means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                      moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)

                      Ralph


                      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                      >
                      > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                      recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                      member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                      Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                      behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                      conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                      constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                      students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                      mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                      expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                      students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                      in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                      the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                      rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                      opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                      >
                      > Scottie Smith

                      > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                      > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                      > >
                      > > Tammy,
                      > >
                      > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                      original
                      > > incident?
                      > >
                      > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                      teacher and
                      > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                      public place at
                      > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                      a total
                      > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                      > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                      what he is
                      > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                      citizen) who
                      > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                      > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                      stop the
                      > > incident.
                      > >
                      > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                      whether or not
                      > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                      makes sense
                      > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                      conversation was
                      > > about.
                      > >
                      > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                      Committee is not
                      > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                      > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                      member of
                      > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                      Even in the
                      > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                      appoint
                      > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                      in the
                      > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                      antipathy
                      > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                      Contract
                      > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                      choosing the
                      > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                      to be an
                      > > absurd position.
                      > >
                      > > Charley Cowens
                      > >
                      > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                      the event
                      > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                      > > >
                      > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                      conversation
                      > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                      that Mr.
                      > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                      > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                      > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                      spent time
                      > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                      > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                      costs and the
                      > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                      last year
                      > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                      many of us can
                      > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                      many of us
                      > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                      couple of
                      > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                      > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                      the school
                      > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                      > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                      Advisory
                      > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                      committee was
                      > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                      numbers,
                      > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                      numbers and
                      > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                      their side of
                      > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                      > > > Tammy Campbell
                      > > >
                      > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                      > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                      > > > teacher
                      > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                      > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                      to kill
                      > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                      letter
                      > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                      school board
                      > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                      intimidate me."
                      > > >
                      > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                      Did the
                      > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                      > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                      not the
                      > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                      > > >
                      > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                      > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                      > > > What kind of message does that send?
                      > > >
                      > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                      > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                      over an
                      > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                      would hope
                      > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                      > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                      > > >
                      > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                      no way
                      > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                      > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                    • rcs101@att.net
                      --Ralph: I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                        --Ralph:

                        I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.



                        Scottie Smith




                        -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                        >
                        > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                        > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                        >
                        > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                        > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                        > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                        > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                        >
                        > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                        > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                        > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                        > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                        > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                        > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                        > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                        > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                        > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                        > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                        > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                        > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                        > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                        > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                        > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                        >
                        > Ralph
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                        > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                        > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                        > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                        > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                        > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                        > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                        > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                        > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                        > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                        > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                        > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                        > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                        > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                        > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                        > >
                        > > Scottie Smith
                        >
                        > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                        > > >
                        > > > Tammy,
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                        > original
                        > > > incident?
                        > > >
                        > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                        > teacher and
                        > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                        > public place at
                        > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                        > a total
                        > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                        > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                        > what he is
                        > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                        > citizen) who
                        > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                        > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                        > stop the
                        > > > incident.
                        > > >
                        > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                        > whether or not
                        > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                        > makes sense
                        > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                        > conversation was
                        > > > about.
                        > > >
                        > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                        > Committee is not
                        > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                        > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                        > member of
                        > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                        > Even in the
                        > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                        > appoint
                        > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                        > in the
                        > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                        > antipathy
                        > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                        > Contract
                        > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                        > choosing the
                        > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                        > to be an
                        > > > absurd position.
                        > > >
                        > > > Charley Cowens
                        > > >
                        > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                        > the event
                        > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                        > conversation
                        > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                        > that Mr.
                        > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                        > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                        > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                        > spent time
                        > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                        > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                        > costs and the
                        > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                        > last year
                        > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                        > many of us can
                        > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                        > many of us
                        > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                        > couple of
                        > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                        > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                        > the school
                        > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                        > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                        > Advisory
                        > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                        > committee was
                        > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                        > numbers,
                        > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                        > numbers and
                        > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                        > their side of
                        > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                        > > > > Tammy Campbell
                        > > > >
                        > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                        > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                        > > > > teacher
                        > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                        > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                        > to kill
                        > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                        > letter
                        > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                        > school board
                        > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                        > intimidate me."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                        > Did the
                        > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                        > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                        > not the
                        > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                        > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                        > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                        > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                        > over an
                        > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                        > would hope
                        > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                        > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                        > no way
                        > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                        > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Tammera Campbell
                        Charley, It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                          Charley,
                          It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May, then?

                          Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than understanding the problem.

                          Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view. Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct conflict with what the unions may want.
                          Tammy Campbell


                          Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                          Tammy,

                          Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                          incident?

                          Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                          citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                          El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                          stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                          proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                          saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                          had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                          Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                          incident.

                          It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                          a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                          in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                          about.

                          Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                          to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                          originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                          the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                          compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                          members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                          appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                          of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                          requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                          teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                          absurd position.

                          Charley Cowens

                          On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                          > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                          >
                          > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                          > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                          > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                          > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                          > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                          > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                          > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                          > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                          > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                          > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                          > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                          > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                          > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                          > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                          > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                          > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                          > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                          > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                          > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                          > the story? Local One has been there.
                          > Tammy Campbell
                          >
                          > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                          > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                          > teacher
                          > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                          > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                          > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                          > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                          > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                          >
                          > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                          > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                          > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                          > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                          >
                          > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                          > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                          > What kind of message does that send?
                          >
                          > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                          > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                          > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                          > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                          > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                          >
                          > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                          > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                          > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          ---------------------------------
                          Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                          Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • petr_loubal
                          As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate speech, unlike
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                            As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it
                            seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate
                            speech, unlike intemperate action, should be censored (with opinions
                            split more or less equally). The more recent comments question the
                            timing and deal with the root cause and motives.

                            This evolution could be seen as a good example of "collective wisdom"
                            at work in our local internet setting. (See, for instance,
                            http://wikinomics.com/ for a more thorough examination of this
                            phenomenon in the world-at-large).

                            Let's hope this is noticed. Maybe it is time to hear from the
                            participants in the initial confrontation.

                            Turn the issue into a learning experience, and get on with more
                            substantial concerns.

                            Peter
                            ------------------------------------
                            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Tammera Campbell
                            <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Charley,
                            > It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we
                            are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it
                            occurred in May, then?
                            >
                            > Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong.
                            What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident
                            rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to
                            fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus
                            on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and
                            work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have
                            these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so
                            many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than
                            understanding the problem.
                            >
                            > Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the
                            mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget
                            transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been
                            stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I
                            also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned
                            to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent
                            that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the
                            budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view.
                            Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union
                            issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that
                            we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and
                            health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct
                            conflict with what the unions may want.
                            > Tammy Campbell
                            >
                            >
                            > Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                            > Tammy,
                            >
                            > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                            original
                            > incident?
                            >
                            > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                            teacher and
                            > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public
                            place at
                            > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a
                            total
                            > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                            > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what
                            he is
                            > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                            citizen) who
                            > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                            > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                            stop the
                            > incident.
                            >
                            > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether
                            or not
                            > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                            makes sense
                            > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                            conversation was
                            > about.
                            >
                            > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee
                            is not
                            > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                            > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                            member of
                            > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even
                            in the
                            > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                            appoint
                            > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                            in the
                            > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                            antipathy
                            > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                            > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                            choosing the
                            > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                            to be an
                            > absurd position.
                            >
                            > Charley Cowens
                            >
                            > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                            the event
                            > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                            > >
                            > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                            conversation
                            > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                            > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                            > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                            > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                            spent time
                            > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                            > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs
                            and the
                            > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                            last year
                            > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many
                            of us can
                            > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                            many of us
                            > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                            > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                            > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the
                            school
                            > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                            > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                            > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                            committee was
                            > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                            numbers,
                            > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                            numbers and
                            > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                            their side of
                            > > the story? Local One has been there.
                            > > Tammy Campbell
                            > >
                            > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                            > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                            > > teacher
                            > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                            > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                            > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                            > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school
                            board
                            > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                            intimidate me."
                            > >
                            > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                            > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                            > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                            > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                            > >
                            > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                            > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                            > > What kind of message does that send?
                            > >
                            > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                            > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                            over an
                            > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would
                            hope
                            > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                            > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                            > >
                            > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                            > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                            > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                            > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • jim cowen
                            Tammera Campbell wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey s behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                              Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident.



                              _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict between districts and unions.
                              This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and union/district conflicts, is it???
                              That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work stress.

                              When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it - what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the person committing the assault.

                              The root cause is Ramsey.

                              Jim



                              ---------------------------------
                              Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                              Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Cathy Travlos
                              There are two issues here. First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I m sure he d agree. He s not the only one who needs to do this
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                                There are two issues here.
                                First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I'm
                                sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I disagreed
                                with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                example for our kids.
                                Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However, the
                                flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known him?
                                Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt that
                                being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                when there are important issues at hand.

                                Cathy

                                jim cowen wrote:

                                > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                > cause behind the incident.
                                >
                                > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                > between districts and unions.
                                > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey
                                > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                > stress.
                                >
                                > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                > person committing the assault.
                                >
                                > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                >
                                > Jim
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • Ralph Bedwell
                                Scottie, Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars. You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on personal whim. This is not
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                                  Scottie,

                                  Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                  You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                  personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                  student.

                                  I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                  we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                  school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                  or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                  etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                  personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                  But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                  essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                  optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                  put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                  can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                  that they need and deserve.

                                  Ralph

                                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --Ralph:
                                  >
                                  > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                  district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                  need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                  of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                  expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                  momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Scottie Smith
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                  > >
                                  > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                  > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                  > >
                                  > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                  > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                  > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                  > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                  > >
                                  > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                  > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                  > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                  > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                  > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                  > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                  > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                  > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                  > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                  > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                  > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                  > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                  > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                  > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                  > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Ralph
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                  > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                  > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                  > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                  > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                  > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                  > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                  > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                  > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                  > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                  > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                  > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                  > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                  > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                  > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Scottie Smith
                                  > >
                                  > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Tammy,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                  > > original
                                  > > > > incident?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                  > > teacher and
                                  > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                  > > public place at
                                  > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                  > > a total
                                  > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                  > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                  > > what he is
                                  > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                  > > citizen) who
                                  > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                  incident.
                                  > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                  > > stop the
                                  > > > > incident.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                  > > whether or not
                                  > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                  > > makes sense
                                  > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                  > > conversation was
                                  > > > > about.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                  > > Committee is not
                                  > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                  fact,
                                  > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                  > > member of
                                  > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                  > > Even in the
                                  > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                  > > appoint
                                  > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                  > > in the
                                  > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                  > > antipathy
                                  > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                  > > Contract
                                  > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                  > > choosing the
                                  > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                  > > to be an
                                  > > > > absurd position.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Charley Cowens
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                  > > the event
                                  > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                  > > conversation
                                  > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                  > > that Mr.
                                  > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                  be that
                                  > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                  > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                  > > spent time
                                  > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                  > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                  > > costs and the
                                  > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                  > > last year
                                  > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                  > > many of us can
                                  > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                  > > many of us
                                  > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                  > > couple of
                                  > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                  Comittee
                                  > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                  > > the school
                                  > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                  > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                  > > Advisory
                                  > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                  > > committee was
                                  > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                  > > numbers,
                                  > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                  > > numbers and
                                  > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                  > > their side of
                                  > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                  > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                  that the
                                  > > > > > teacher
                                  > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                  say what
                                  > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                  > > to kill
                                  > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                  > > letter
                                  > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                  > > school board
                                  > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                  > > intimidate me."
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                  > > Did the
                                  > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                  Was he
                                  > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                  > > not the
                                  > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                  cannot
                                  > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                  years.
                                  > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                  this a
                                  > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                  > > over an
                                  > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                  > > would hope
                                  > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                  confident
                                  > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                  > > no way
                                  > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                  in the
                                  > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                  Travel.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Mike Wasilchin
                                  Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night. At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                    Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night.



                                    At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                    suspensions and expulsions. The data is not real accurate as the manner in
                                    which the information is recorded varies from site to site and the
                                    application of District/Site policies is not administered equitably.
                                    Additionally, according to District data, students with discipline problems
                                    are no longer just transferred from one school to the next. For the most
                                    part, there are several types of programs that are being utilized to curb
                                    student behavior at a particular site prior to suspending and expelling the
                                    students. Some examples: CCC Probation department gets referrals from both
                                    the D.A. (via court decisions) and principals (they identify students at
                                    risk to intervene before they get in the system; there are a few mentor
                                    programs that are being utilized that have several levels to be able to
                                    offer support to repeat offenders; there are summits that students at risk
                                    are able to attend and then become proactive agents of change at their
                                    respective sites; peer counseling and conflict mediation is growing at both
                                    the elementary and secondary levels and appears to be having an impact; and
                                    the District is in the process of implementing character development at the
                                    middle schools, which is already in place in several elementary and proving
                                    to be quite successful; and there are also several community services that
                                    are available to youth that meet certain criteria (foster care, Spanish
                                    speaking, gang affiliations, etc.)



                                    While the data from the District is not completely accurate, it is a
                                    starting point. My position is that if you if you do not have accurate and
                                    complete data, one does not know how successful or unsuccessful a program or
                                    plan is. I have urged the District to ensure the data that is captured is
                                    as accurate as possible and that the data be shared with the public in
                                    several different arenas (Board of Education, District Safety Committee,
                                    School Site Councils, etc.) The ultimate goal is to make the schools safer
                                    through the implementation and ongoing modification of several different
                                    programs and mechanisms such that students know the rules and acceptable
                                    behaviors in the District and recognize the disciplines that will be
                                    administered when rules are broken. This is something that has not been
                                    consistently happening in this District for several years.



                                    This is just interpretation by attending all of the District Safety
                                    Committee Meetings for 2006/07 and following the safety issues on the Board
                                    of Education agendas.



                                    Michael Wasilchin

                                    Business Agent

                                    Public Employees Union, Local One

                                    4197 Lakeside Dr., Suite # 170

                                    Richmond, CA 94806

                                    Telephone # - (510) 222 - 5012

                                    Fax # - (510) 222 - 8858



                                    _____

                                    From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Ralph Bedwell
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:20 PM
                                    To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech



                                    Scottie,

                                    Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                    You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                    personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                    student.

                                    I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                    we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                    school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                    or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                    etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                    personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                    But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                    essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                    optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                    put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                    can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                    that they need and deserve.

                                    Ralph

                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
                                    rcs101@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --Ralph:
                                    >
                                    > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                    district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                    need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                    of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                    expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                    momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Scottie Smith
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                    > >
                                    > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                    > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                    > >
                                    > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                    > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                    > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                    > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                    > >
                                    > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                    > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                    > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                    > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                    > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                    > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                    > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                    > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                    > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                    > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                    > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                    > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                    > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                    > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                    > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                    > >
                                    > > Ralph
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    ups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                    > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                    > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                    > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                    > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                    > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                    > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                    > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                    > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                    > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                    > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                    > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                    > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                    > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                    > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Scottie Smith
                                    > >
                                    > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tammy,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                    > > original
                                    > > > > incident?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                    > > teacher and
                                    > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                    > > public place at
                                    > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                    > > a total
                                    > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                    > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                    > > what he is
                                    > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                    > > citizen) who
                                    > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                    incident.
                                    > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                    > > stop the
                                    > > > > incident.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                    > > whether or not
                                    > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                    > > makes sense
                                    > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                    > > conversation was
                                    > > > > about.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                    > > Committee is not
                                    > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                    fact,
                                    > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                    > > member of
                                    > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                    > > Even in the
                                    > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                    > > appoint
                                    > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                    > > in the
                                    > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                    > > antipathy
                                    > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                    > > Contract
                                    > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                    > > choosing the
                                    > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                    > > to be an
                                    > > > > absurd position.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Charley Cowens
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                    > > the event
                                    > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                    > > conversation
                                    > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                    > > that Mr.
                                    > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                    be that
                                    > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                    > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                    > > spent time
                                    > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                    > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                    > > costs and the
                                    > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                    > > last year
                                    > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                    > > many of us can
                                    > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                    > > many of us
                                    > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                    > > couple of
                                    > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                    Comittee
                                    > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                    > > the school
                                    > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                    > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                    > > Advisory
                                    > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                    > > committee was
                                    > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                    > > numbers,
                                    > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                    > > numbers and
                                    > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                    > > their side of
                                    > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                    > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                    that the
                                    > > > > > teacher
                                    > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                    say what
                                    > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                    > > to kill
                                    > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                    > > letter
                                    > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                    > > school board
                                    > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                    > > intimidate me."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                    > > Did the
                                    > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                    Was he
                                    > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                    > > not the
                                    > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                    cannot
                                    > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                    years.
                                    > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                    this a
                                    > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                    > > over an
                                    > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                    > > would hope
                                    > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                    confident
                                    > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                    > > no way
                                    > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                    in the
                                    > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                    Travel.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • rcs101@att.net
                                    --Ralph: I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                      --Ralph:

                                      I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide information to teachers and principals about all resources that are available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology, speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed, or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like teachers are in the same boat.

                                      It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems; and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders. Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to another, without using the available services that are to help students and teachers.

                                      There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful, therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning environment or the society.

                                      So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in the Fall?

                                      Scottie Smith




                                      -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                      From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                      >
                                      > Scottie,
                                      >
                                      > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                      >
                                      > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                      > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                      > student.
                                      >
                                      > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                      > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                      > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                      > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                      > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                      > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                      > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                      > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                      > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                      > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                      > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                      > that they need and deserve.
                                      >
                                      > Ralph
                                      >
                                      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --Ralph:
                                      > >
                                      > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                      > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                      > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                      > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                      > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                      > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Scottie Smith
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                      > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                      > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                      > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                      > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                      > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                      > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                      > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                      > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                      > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                      > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                      > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                      > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                      > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                      > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                      > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                      > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                      > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                      > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                      > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ralph
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                      > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                      > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                      > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                      > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                      > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                      > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                      > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                      > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                      > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                      > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                      > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                      > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                      > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                      > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Scottie Smith
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                      > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Tammy,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                      > > > original
                                      > > > > > incident?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                      > > > teacher and
                                      > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                      > > > public place at
                                      > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                      > > > a total
                                      > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                      > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                      > > > what he is
                                      > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                      > > > citizen) who
                                      > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                      > incident.
                                      > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                      > > > stop the
                                      > > > > > incident.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                      > > > whether or not
                                      > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                      > > > makes sense
                                      > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                      > > > conversation was
                                      > > > > > about.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                      > > > Committee is not
                                      > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                      > fact,
                                      > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                      > > > member of
                                      > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                      > > > Even in the
                                      > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                      > > > appoint
                                      > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                      > > > in the
                                      > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                      > > > antipathy
                                      > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                      > > > Contract
                                      > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                      > > > choosing the
                                      > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                      > > > to be an
                                      > > > > > absurd position.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                      > > > the event
                                      > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                      > > > conversation
                                      > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                      > > > that Mr.
                                      > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                      > be that
                                      > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                      > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                      > > > spent time
                                      > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                      > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                      > > > costs and the
                                      > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                      > > > last year
                                      > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                      > > > many of us can
                                      > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                      > > > many of us
                                      > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                      > > > couple of
                                      > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                      > Comittee
                                      > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                      > > > the school
                                      > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                      > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                      > > > Advisory
                                      > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                      > > > committee was
                                      > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                      > > > numbers,
                                      > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                      > > > numbers and
                                      > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                      > > > their side of
                                      > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                      > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                      > that the
                                      > > > > > > teacher
                                      > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                      > say what
                                      > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                      > > > to kill
                                      > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                      > > > letter
                                      > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                      > > > school board
                                      > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                      > > > intimidate me."
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                      > > > Did the
                                      > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                      > Was he
                                      > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                      > > > not the
                                      > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                      > cannot
                                      > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                      > years.
                                      > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                      > this a
                                      > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                      > > > over an
                                      > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                      > > > would hope
                                      > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                      > confident
                                      > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                      > > > no way
                                      > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                      > in the
                                      > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                      > Travel.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Diamel@aol.com
                                      Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be willing to help you. Diane Brown ************************************** Get a
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                        Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be
                                        willing to help you.

                                        Diane Brown



                                        ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
                                        http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • rebecca494
                                        I think Cathy s posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going around yelling at
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
                                          I think Cathy's posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board
                                          Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going
                                          around yelling at each other; shouting obscenities and generally
                                          acting like jerks how can we expect the youth to behave differently?

                                          I don't think saying we should just get on with more important issues
                                          will curb the problem until we deal with the issue of modeling and the
                                          role that all of us adults are playing in the deterioration of the
                                          behavior of our youth. They model after the adults in their life.

                                          Since I know of many incidents of Mr. Ramsey losing his temper in
                                          public during the last 14 years I do not think he is a good role model
                                          for our youth and I would say that he is not successfully working on
                                          controlling his temper. Maybe the Board should require an anger
                                          management course for him to avoid a censure.

                                          What could the high school students have thought who witnessed that
                                          incident? What do our youth think when they see their adults modeling
                                          poor behavior?

                                          Of course the educational business of the district has to be conducted
                                          no matter what, but I do think the Board has to set some limits on
                                          continuous angry outbursts.

                                          Rebecca Hazlewood






                                          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > There are two issues here.
                                          > First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and
                                          I'm
                                          > sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                          > have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I
                                          disagreed
                                          > with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                          > report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                          > example for our kids.
                                          > Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                          > UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However,
                                          the
                                          > flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                          > assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known
                                          him?
                                          > Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                          > is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt
                                          that
                                          > being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                          > district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                          > It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                          > member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                          > when there are important issues at hand.
                                          >
                                          > Cathy
                                          >
                                          > jim cowen wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                          > > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                          > > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                          > > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                          > > cause behind the incident.
                                          > >
                                          > > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                          > > between districts and unions.
                                          > > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between
                                          Ramsey
                                          > > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                          > > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                          > > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                          > > stress.
                                          > >
                                          > > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                          > > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                          > > person committing the assault.
                                          > >
                                          > > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                          > >
                                          > > Jim
                                          > >
                                          > > ---------------------------------
                                          > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                          > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • rebecca494
                                          Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this district since I
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
                                            Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to
                                            say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this
                                            district since I first met her in 1991, during bankruptcy meetings.
                                            Now of course each of us is unique and has our own way, but I must
                                            hand it to her for her aplomb, tenacity and dedication, and being a
                                            very positive role model for our youth.

                                            Rebecca





                                            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --Ralph:
                                            >
                                            > I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but
                                            plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a
                                            teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our
                                            students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide
                                            information to teachers and principals about all resources that are
                                            available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education
                                            psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology,
                                            speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug
                                            intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes
                                            on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that
                                            all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases
                                            intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware
                                            of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed,
                                            or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like
                                            teachers are in the same boat.
                                            >
                                            > It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they
                                            will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems;
                                            and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for
                                            intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly
                                            and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place
                                            to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders.
                                            Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to
                                            another, without using the available services that are to help
                                            students and teachers.
                                            >
                                            > There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can
                                            not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information
                                            about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment
                                            schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the
                                            district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful,
                                            therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help
                                            them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and
                                            student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning
                                            environment or the society.
                                            >
                                            > So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in
                                            the Fall?
                                            >
                                            > Scottie Smith
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                            > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                            > >
                                            > > Scottie,
                                            > >
                                            > > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                            > >
                                            > > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                            > > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                            > > student.
                                            > >
                                            > > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                            > > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                            > > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                            > > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                            > > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                            > > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                            > > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                            > > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                            > > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                            > > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                            > > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                            > > that they need and deserve.
                                            > >
                                            > > Ralph
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --Ralph:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                            > > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                            > > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                            > > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                            > > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                            > > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their
                                            behavior.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Scottie Smith
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                            > > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@>
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                            > > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's
                                            behavior
                                            > > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or
                                            normal
                                            > > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example
                                            for young
                                            > > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a
                                            long
                                            > > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical
                                            safety of
                                            > > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting,
                                            other
                                            > > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                            > > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.).
                                            Personally,
                                            > > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                            > > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It
                                            sounds just
                                            > > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second
                                            chances" in
                                            > > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some
                                            point it is
                                            > > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their
                                            parents,
                                            > > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem
                                            student
                                            > > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                            > > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                            > > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student
                                            is just
                                            > > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Ralph
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident
                                            fairly
                                            > > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another
                                            board
                                            > > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the
                                            incident.
                                            > > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned
                                            about adult
                                            > > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                            > > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our
                                            behavior. I am
                                            > > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                            > > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                            > > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many
                                            students are
                                            > > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to
                                            help the
                                            > > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the
                                            increase
                                            > > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year,
                                            therefore,
                                            > > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the
                                            type of
                                            > > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not
                                            had the
                                            > > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Scottie Smith
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                            > > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Tammy,
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story
                                            versus the
                                            > > > > original
                                            > > > > > > incident?
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                            > > > > teacher and
                                            > > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                            > > > > public place at
                                            > > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government
                                            official and
                                            > > > > a total
                                            > > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an
                                            at least
                                            > > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                            > > > > what he is
                                            > > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                            > > > > citizen) who
                                            > > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                            > > incident.
                                            > > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually
                                            intervene to
                                            > > > > stop the
                                            > > > > > > incident.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                            > > > > whether or not
                                            > > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or
                                            recall)
                                            > > > > makes sense
                                            > > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                            > > > > conversation was
                                            > > > > > > about.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                            > > > > Committee is not
                                            > > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                            > > fact,
                                            > > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be
                                            allowed to be
                                            > > > > member of
                                            > > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                            > > > > Even in the
                                            > > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not
                                            formally
                                            > > > > appoint
                                            > > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest
                                            members
                                            > > > > in the
                                            > > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part
                                            of the
                                            > > > > antipathy
                                            > > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                            > > > > Contract
                                            > > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                            > > > > choosing the
                                            > > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't
                                            consider it
                                            > > > > to be an
                                            > > > > > > absurd position.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the
                                            time of
                                            > > > > the event
                                            > > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                            > > > > conversation
                                            > > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why
                                            is it
                                            > > > > that Mr.
                                            > > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                            > > be that
                                            > > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels
                                            regarding the
                                            > > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have
                                            really
                                            > > > > spent time
                                            > > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD
                                            budget, the
                                            > > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                            > > > > costs and the
                                            > > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that
                                            in the
                                            > > > > last year
                                            > > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                                            How
                                            > > > > many of us can
                                            > > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining
                                            enrollment? How
                                            > > > > many of us
                                            > > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                            > > > > couple of
                                            > > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                            > > Comittee
                                            > > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us
                                            follow
                                            > > > > the school
                                            > > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                            > > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the
                                            Budget
                                            > > > > Advisory
                                            > > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point
                                            of the
                                            > > > > committee was
                                            > > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to
                                            analyze
                                            > > > > numbers,
                                            > > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to
                                            understand the
                                            > > > > numbers and
                                            > > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help
                                            us with
                                            > > > > their side of
                                            > > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                            > > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                            > > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                            > > that the
                                            > > > > > > > teacher
                                            > > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                            > > say what
                                            > > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was
                                            going
                                            > > > > to kill
                                            > > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the
                                            teacher's
                                            > > > > letter
                                            > > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                            > > > > school board
                                            > > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                            > > > > intimidate me."
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat
                                            was.
                                            > > > > Did the
                                            > > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                            > > Was he
                                            > > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him?
                                            That is
                                            > > > > not the
                                            > > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                            > > cannot
                                            > > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                            > > years.
                                            > > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                            > > this a
                                            > > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a
                                            teacher fired
                                            > > > > over an
                                            > > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                            > > > > would hope
                                            > > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                            > > confident
                                            > > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher,
                                            that is
                                            > > > > no way
                                            > > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                            > > in the
                                            > > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                            > > Travel.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
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