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Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech

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  • petr_loubal
    Jim, thanks for responding. This topic deserves more discussion, I d love to hear from others, and Charles Ramsey needs to know what people think. The
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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      Jim, thanks for responding. This topic deserves more discussion, I'd
      love to hear from others, and Charles Ramsey needs to know what people
      think.

      The tendency of elected officials to "strut, bully, threaten,
      intimidate" is exactly the reason why we need to accept what (in the
      US rather than Europe) may be seen as "loud, strident, insulting"
      comments. My experience with the El Cerrito City Council is that they
      love to be subtly insulting, i.e...."please wind up, your two minutes
      are up" after they obviously did not listen, while watching the clock
      rather than the speaker. Being "up there" on the dais, with unlimited
      opportunities to respond, gives them an unfair advantage in acting
      regal.

      I have argued this issue with friends for a dozen years now, and still
      am convinced that dignifies softness and politeness doesn't stand a
      chance against an entrenched bureaucracy/political-in-group. But they
      want respect, and do very poorly with outspoken criticism. I wouldn't
      rub a puppy's nose its dirt (especially since my wife may let it sleep
      in our bed), but have no qualms about a politician.

      And, by the way, this is the main reason why in spite of all the
      stupidity and mistakes, freer society are likely to win against
      totalitarian and fundamentalist systems, in the long run. This is not
      a trivial issue.

      Peter
      --------------------------
      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, jim cowen <jimcowen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Peter I couldn't disagree more.
      >
      > The article doesnt give much of Ramseys side of the story, but the
      whole alledged scenario follows the pattern.
      >
      > The idea that Ramsey was miffed because they did not know who he
      is also follows a pattern. Ramsey likes to regally strut around
      school campuses. He has a long history of bullying, threatening,
      intimidating.
      >
      > A while back, when he said to a sound technician DURING A SCHOOL
      BOARD MEETING that they should "Take it outside" it was disgusting.
      >
      > Ramsey forgets that he serves the people. He acts as if he
      expects the people - teachers, students, parents, voters - to serve him.
      >
      > According to Times writer Ms. Wetzel, "He (Ramsey) said he
      apologized to Osborn but has not apologized to Temple because Temple
      initiated the police report against him." That is a sad, sad comment
      coming from an elected official. It makes him sound like a schoolyard
      crybaby-bully in the principals office.
      >
      > Ramsey puts forth a huge amount of energy in the school district
      (I bet more than anyone else). If he could learn to focus that energy
      on what is best for the students and his constituents instead of what
      is best for his own ego and status, then he could be a great man.
      >
      > But, unless and until that happens, it will continue to baffle me
      how any voter could ever put a check by his name.
      >
      > (as an aside, Ms Pfeifer sure doesnt do herself any favors by
      defending him. If I were her political consultant I would advise her
      to never say anything about Ramsey!!)
      >
      > Jim Cowen
      >
      > petr_loubal <ploubal@...> wrote:
      > Below, an article in today's Times. As a firm believer in
      free speech
      > I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be
      > able to handle higher decibels, and learn to confront someone taller
      > than they are, for a change. Threats of "legal action" are certainly
      > more "bullying" than raising one's voice.
      >
      > I hope Charles Ramsey continues to speak his mind, as long as he lets
      > others do the same. As forcefully as it takes to be heard.
      >
      > "Speak loudly, but drop the stick!"
      >
      > Peter
      > -------------
      > Trustee accused of bullying teacher
      > # El Cerrito educator, volunteer say the West County school board
      > member verbally attacked, threatened them
      > By Kimberly S. Wetzel
      >
      > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
      > Contra Costa Times
      > Article Launched:07/05/2007 03:02:57 AM PDT
      > A teacher and volunteer who say longtime West County school board
      > member Charles Ramsey verbally attacked and threatened them in May are
      > exploring legal options against him and the district.
      >
      > El Cerrito High School art teacher Steven Temple and school volunteer
      > Marcia Osborn say Ramsey bullied them May 31 and shouted at them in
      > front of other school workers and students.
      >
      > Ramsey called the encounter an argument between adults and said he did
      > not threaten or verbally attack anyone.
      >
      > Temple filed a police report and said he hopes the school board will
      > consider taking disciplinary action against Ramsey. El Cerrito police
      > Chief Scott Kirkland said the report was filed for documentation
      > purposes only, and there is no criminal investigation.
      >
      > Both Temple and Osborn said they are speaking with attorneys.
      >
      > "I feel that Mr. Ramsey was out of line, rude, belligerent and
      > egotistical," Temple wrote in a report submitted to the El Cerrito
      > Police Department, school board President Karen Pfeifer, the United
      > Teachers of Richmond and El Cerrito High Principal Vince Rhea. "I
      > believe that he tried to use his school board authority along with his
      > aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
      >
      > Ramsey was investigated by fellow board members a couple of years ago
      > after threatening and cursing at a sound technician during a board
      > meeting. He was criticized in the fall for confronting and cursing at
      > a fellow school board candidate, also during a board meeting.
      >
      > This week, he said the May incident was "unfortunate."
      >
      > "Of course I regret it any time two people get into an argument,"
      > Ramsey said. "Yeah, it got loud, but they got loud back."
      >
      > Temple said Ramsey confronted him in the El Cerrito High office about
      > 2:45 p.m. after overhearing Temple say something about the ongoing
      > contract dispute between the teachers union and the district.
      >
      > Ramsey, who was in the back of the office talking to a secretary,
      > approached Temple and told him he didn't know what he was talking
      > about, Temple says.
      >
      > "I had no idea who he was, so I asked him," Temple said. "He curtly
      > replied, 'You don't know me? I'm Charles Ramsey, a school board
      member.'"
      >
      > Ramsey, who stands more than 6 feet tall, then became angry and
      > started shouting at Temple, who is 5 feet 6 inches tall, Temple said.
      >
      > "He then walked around the corner, glared down on me from a few inches
      > away, pointed his finger at my chest and said 'You don't talk to me
      > that way,'" Temple said in his report, adding that Ramsey shouted that
      > Temple was "ignorant" and "out of line."
      >
      > The shouting continued until Osborn, who was talking with a school
      > employee, noticed that students and staff had gathered to watch. She
      > said she then told Ramsey to keep it down.
      >
      > "He then turned on me and started yelling and screaming at me," Osborn
      > wrote in her complaint to the district, adding that Ramsey told her to
      > "shut up" and said she was "nobody" as he backed her against a window.
      >
      > "I was afraid, you'd better believe it," Osborn told the Times. "I'm
      > 5-11, and I'm not very intimidated. But I was scared. I thought, 'Oh,
      > my God, this guy is going to hit me.'"
      >
      > According to Osborn and Temple, Ramsey continued to shout until El
      > Cerrito Assistant Principal Elizabeth Watson entered and asked Ramsey
      > to calm down and leave. Watson recently left the district but did file
      > a written report that concurs with Temple and Osborn's version of
      events.
      >
      > Ramsey maintains the incident was an argument, nothing more, and that
      > he did not threaten or attack anyone. He said he apologized to Osborn
      > but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police
      > report against him.
      >
      > Ramsey said he was upset because he had received about 100 calls from
      > teachers regarding the contract dispute between the union and
      > district. A union flier had circulated accusing the school board of
      > reneging on a tentative agreement and encouraging teachers to call
      > members to complain.
      >
      > The flier was inaccurate, Ramsey said, and he hoped to clear up the
      > misconceptions. He said that Temple accused the school board of
      > stealing teachers' money, which is what upset him.
      >
      > Temple, a 32-year district employee, said he never made the comment
      > about the district stealing money and that the incident caused him
      > stress and made him concerned for the security of his job. He said he
      > saw Ramsey on campus again the next day.
      >
      > "It was almost debilitating," Temple said. "I was in a knot. This guy
      > could get me fired."
      >
      > Temple and Osborn said they believe Ramsey should take
      > anger-management classes or resign.
      >
      > "You can't do this to people," Osborn said. "Especially when you're in
      > the public eye. It's not acceptable under any circumstances."
      >
      > Pfeifer, the board president, said she has no plans to initiate an
      > investigation.
      >
      > "It's been a difficult time, and I'm sorry that Charles lost his
      > temper," Pfeifer said. "I've been told that he has apologized to all
      > the people involved in the incident. My statement about this incident
      > is it seems very small compared to the huge amount of good work
      > Charles Ramsey does for the district. And I would be very sorry to see
      > that good work overshadowed."
      >
      > Reach Kimberly S. Wetzel at 510-262-2798 or kwetzel@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • gregorychang
      Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be better served by
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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        Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound
        technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
        better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in my
        limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
        sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a more
        appropriate manner.

        Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat laughable.
        To file a police report because he got in an argument and was yelled
        at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
        feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other adults
        in different professions filed police reports every time they were
        yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
        paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget it
        and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that Mr.
        Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike the
        previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
        People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real world!

        I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
        she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
        and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
        did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
        probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the debate.

        We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
        challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
        passion although I hope in the future he can control it and channel
        it in other ways.

        The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the tension
        between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to bury
        their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
        district faces many challenges. How can we work productively towards
        solving them if we are not all on the same page?

        As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a family
        headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
        easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
        generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
        the students and do not interact as much with other adults as those
        in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom and
        their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and disagrees
        passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
        the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on personal
        experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
        there will be exceptions to this observation.)
      • gregorychang
        I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what shape or form the threat
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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          I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
          alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
          shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
          the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
          cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
          authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

          So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
          teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
          frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
          same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

          Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
          recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
          What kind of message does that send?

          Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
          legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
          argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
          our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
          that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

          Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
          to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
          article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
        • gawolinsky
          I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole; money better spent on teacher
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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            I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not
            initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole;
            money better spent on teacher salaries and educating the next
            generation who, one hopes, will be more effective stewards than our
            current one . . . Perhaps some of the savings could be spent on
            anger management counseling or workshops to help us keep civil
            discourse civil.

            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the
            sound
            > technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
            > better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in
            my
            > limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
            > sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a
            more
            > appropriate manner.
            >
            > Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat
            laughable.
            > To file a police report because he got in an argument and was
            yelled
            > at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
            > feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other
            adults
            > in different professions filed police reports every time they were
            > yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
            > paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget
            it
            > and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that
            Mr.
            > Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike
            the
            > previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
            > People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real
            world!
            >
            > I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
            > she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
            > and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
            > did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
            > probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the
            debate.
            >
            > We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
            > challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
            > passion although I hope in the future he can control it and
            channel
            > it in other ways.
            >
            > The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the
            tension
            > between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to
            bury
            > their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
            > district faces many challenges. How can we work productively
            towards
            > solving them if we are not all on the same page?
            >
            > As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a
            family
            > headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
            > easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
            > generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
            > the students and do not interact as much with other adults as
            those
            > in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom
            and
            > their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and
            disagrees
            > passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
            > the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on
            personal
            > experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
            > there will be exceptions to this observation.)
            >
          • Ralph Bedwell
            I don t know anything about this particular situation other than what I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I m pretty sure that if a person is
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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              I don't know anything about this particular situation other than what
              I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I'm pretty sure that
              if a person is threatened with a physical attack and he/she reasonably
              believes that said attack will occur, that meets the legal definition
              of assault (people commonly get assault confused with battery, which
              is the actual physical battering, but they are not the same). I don't
              think a person would be a "wimp" if they filed charges in such an
              instance. Rather, they would be using the established system as it's
              intended and setting a good example for our young people who too often
              take matters into their own hands -- mainly so that they don't appear
              to be "wimpy" (disrespected) -- and perform tragic acts of violence.


              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
              > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
              > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
              > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
              > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
              > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
              >
              > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
              > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
              > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
              > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
              >
              > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
              > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
              > What kind of message does that send?
              >
              > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
              > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
              > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
              > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
              > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
              >
              > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
              > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
              > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
              >
            • Tammera Campbell
              I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation. I am hoping that everyone will focus
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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                I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation.

                I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story? Local One has been there.
                Tammy Campbell

                gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

                So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

                Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                What kind of message does that send?

                Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

                Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.






                ---------------------------------
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              • spricco@comcast.net
                Just a minute. I ve been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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                  Just a minute. I've been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is certainly not free speech. The issue is bullying behavior. Take personalities out of this for a moment. Was the behavior something that you or I or anyone would tolerate from a student? Would it be tolerated in dealing with another adult? While I do not know what actually transpired, if there was bullying behavior, it needs to be stopped.


                  -------------- Original message --------------
                  From: Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...>

                  > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                  > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                  >
                  > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that
                  > was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and
                  > the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not
                  > yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many
                  > people out there have really spent time understanding public educational
                  > funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased
                  > health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand
                  > that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                  > How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment?
                  > How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                  > couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                  > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board
                  > meetings and bother to understand the budget
                  > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings
                  > to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring
                  > stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the
                  > numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger
                  > picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story?
                  > Local One has been there.
                  > Tammy Campbell
                  >
                  > gregorychang wrote:
                  > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                  > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                  > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                  > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                  > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                  > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                  >
                  > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                  > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                  > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                  > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                  > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                  > What kind of message does that send?
                  >
                  > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                  > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                  > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                  > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                  > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                  >
                  > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                  > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                  > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Charley Cowens
                  Tammy, Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original incident? Let s focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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                    Tammy,

                    Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                    incident?

                    Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                    citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                    El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                    stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                    proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                    saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                    had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                    Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                    incident.

                    It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                    a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                    in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                    about.

                    Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                    to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                    originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                    the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                    compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                    members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                    appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                    of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                    requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                    teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                    absurd position.

                    Charley Cowens

                    On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                    > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                    >
                    > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                    > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                    > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                    > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                    > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                    > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                    > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                    > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                    > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                    > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                    > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                    > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                    > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                    > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                    > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                    > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                    > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                    > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                    > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                    > the story? Local One has been there.
                    > Tammy Campbell
                    >
                    > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                    > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                    > teacher
                    > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                    > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                    > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                    > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                    > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                    >
                    > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                    > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                    > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                    > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                    >
                    > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                    > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                    > What kind of message does that send?
                    >
                    > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                    > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                    > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                    > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                    > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                    >
                    > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                    > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                    > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • rcs101@att.net
                    --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident. Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore, the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the opportunity with support, for a 2 o
                      r 3rd chance.

                      Scottie Smith




                      -------------- Original message ----------------------
                      From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                      >
                      > Tammy,
                      >
                      > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                      > incident?
                      >
                      > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                      > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                      > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                      > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                      > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                      > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                      > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                      > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                      > incident.
                      >
                      > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                      > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                      > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                      > about.
                      >
                      > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                      > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                      > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                      > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                      > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                      > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                      > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                      > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                      > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                      > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                      > absurd position.
                      >
                      > Charley Cowens
                      >
                      > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                      > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                      > >
                      > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                      > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                      > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                      > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                      > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                      > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                      > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                      > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                      > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                      > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                      > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                      > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                      > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                      > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                      > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                      > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                      > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                      > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                      > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                      > > the story? Local One has been there.
                      > > Tammy Campbell
                      > >
                      > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                      > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                      > > teacher
                      > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                      > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                      > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                      > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                      > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                      > >
                      > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                      > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                      > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                      > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                      > >
                      > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                      > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                      > > What kind of message does that send?
                      > >
                      > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                      > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                      > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                      > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                      > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                      > >
                      > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                      > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                      > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Ralph Bedwell
                      Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are being made other than Mr. Ramsey s? While I do strongly feel that a school district
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                        being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?

                        While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                        needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                        human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                        people, I think these are two separate issues.

                        Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                        pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                        other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                        forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                        educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                        based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                        tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                        from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                        order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                        just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                        teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                        to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                        that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                        means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                        moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)

                        Ralph


                        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                        >
                        > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                        recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                        member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                        Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                        behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                        conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                        constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                        students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                        mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                        expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                        students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                        in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                        the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                        rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                        opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                        >
                        > Scottie Smith

                        > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                        > >
                        > > Tammy,
                        > >
                        > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                        original
                        > > incident?
                        > >
                        > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                        teacher and
                        > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                        public place at
                        > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                        a total
                        > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                        > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                        what he is
                        > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                        citizen) who
                        > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                        > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                        stop the
                        > > incident.
                        > >
                        > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                        whether or not
                        > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                        makes sense
                        > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                        conversation was
                        > > about.
                        > >
                        > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                        Committee is not
                        > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                        > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                        member of
                        > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                        Even in the
                        > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                        appoint
                        > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                        in the
                        > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                        antipathy
                        > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                        Contract
                        > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                        choosing the
                        > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                        to be an
                        > > absurd position.
                        > >
                        > > Charley Cowens
                        > >
                        > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                        the event
                        > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                        > > >
                        > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                        conversation
                        > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                        that Mr.
                        > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                        > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                        > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                        spent time
                        > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                        > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                        costs and the
                        > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                        last year
                        > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                        many of us can
                        > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                        many of us
                        > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                        couple of
                        > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                        > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                        the school
                        > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                        > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                        Advisory
                        > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                        committee was
                        > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                        numbers,
                        > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                        numbers and
                        > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                        their side of
                        > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                        > > > Tammy Campbell
                        > > >
                        > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                        > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                        > > > teacher
                        > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                        > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                        to kill
                        > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                        letter
                        > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                        school board
                        > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                        intimidate me."
                        > > >
                        > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                        Did the
                        > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                        > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                        not the
                        > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                        > > >
                        > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                        > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                        > > > What kind of message does that send?
                        > > >
                        > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                        > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                        over an
                        > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                        would hope
                        > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                        > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                        > > >
                        > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                        no way
                        > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                        > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • rcs101@att.net
                        --Ralph: I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --Ralph:

                          I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.



                          Scottie Smith




                          -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                          >
                          > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                          > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                          >
                          > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                          > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                          > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                          > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                          >
                          > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                          > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                          > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                          > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                          > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                          > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                          > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                          > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                          > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                          > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                          > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                          > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                          > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                          > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                          > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                          >
                          > Ralph
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                          > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                          > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                          > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                          > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                          > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                          > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                          > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                          > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                          > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                          > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                          > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                          > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                          > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                          > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                          > >
                          > > Scottie Smith
                          >
                          > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                          > > >
                          > > > Tammy,
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                          > original
                          > > > incident?
                          > > >
                          > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                          > teacher and
                          > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                          > public place at
                          > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                          > a total
                          > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                          > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                          > what he is
                          > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                          > citizen) who
                          > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                          > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                          > stop the
                          > > > incident.
                          > > >
                          > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                          > whether or not
                          > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                          > makes sense
                          > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                          > conversation was
                          > > > about.
                          > > >
                          > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                          > Committee is not
                          > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                          > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                          > member of
                          > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                          > Even in the
                          > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                          > appoint
                          > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                          > in the
                          > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                          > antipathy
                          > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                          > Contract
                          > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                          > choosing the
                          > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                          > to be an
                          > > > absurd position.
                          > > >
                          > > > Charley Cowens
                          > > >
                          > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                          > the event
                          > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                          > conversation
                          > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                          > that Mr.
                          > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                          > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                          > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                          > spent time
                          > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                          > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                          > costs and the
                          > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                          > last year
                          > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                          > many of us can
                          > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                          > many of us
                          > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                          > couple of
                          > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                          > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                          > the school
                          > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                          > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                          > Advisory
                          > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                          > committee was
                          > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                          > numbers,
                          > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                          > numbers and
                          > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                          > their side of
                          > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                          > > > > Tammy Campbell
                          > > > >
                          > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                          > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                          > > > > teacher
                          > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                          > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                          > to kill
                          > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                          > letter
                          > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                          > school board
                          > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                          > intimidate me."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                          > Did the
                          > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                          > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                          > not the
                          > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                          > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                          > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                          > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                          > over an
                          > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                          > would hope
                          > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                          > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                          > no way
                          > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                          > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ---------------------------------
                          > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Tammera Campbell
                          Charley, It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Charley,
                            It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May, then?

                            Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than understanding the problem.

                            Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view. Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct conflict with what the unions may want.
                            Tammy Campbell


                            Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                            Tammy,

                            Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                            incident?

                            Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                            citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                            El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                            stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                            proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                            saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                            had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                            Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                            incident.

                            It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                            a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                            in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                            about.

                            Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                            to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                            originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                            the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                            compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                            members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                            appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                            of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                            requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                            teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                            absurd position.

                            Charley Cowens

                            On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                            > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                            >
                            > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                            > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                            > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                            > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                            > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                            > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                            > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                            > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                            > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                            > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                            > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                            > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                            > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                            > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                            > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                            > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                            > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                            > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                            > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                            > the story? Local One has been there.
                            > Tammy Campbell
                            >
                            > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                            > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                            > teacher
                            > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                            > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                            > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                            > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                            > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                            >
                            > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                            > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                            > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                            > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                            >
                            > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                            > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                            > What kind of message does that send?
                            >
                            > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                            > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                            > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                            > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                            > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                            >
                            > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                            > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                            > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            ---------------------------------
                            Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                            Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • petr_loubal
                            As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate speech, unlike
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it
                              seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate
                              speech, unlike intemperate action, should be censored (with opinions
                              split more or less equally). The more recent comments question the
                              timing and deal with the root cause and motives.

                              This evolution could be seen as a good example of "collective wisdom"
                              at work in our local internet setting. (See, for instance,
                              http://wikinomics.com/ for a more thorough examination of this
                              phenomenon in the world-at-large).

                              Let's hope this is noticed. Maybe it is time to hear from the
                              participants in the initial confrontation.

                              Turn the issue into a learning experience, and get on with more
                              substantial concerns.

                              Peter
                              ------------------------------------
                              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Tammera Campbell
                              <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Charley,
                              > It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we
                              are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it
                              occurred in May, then?
                              >
                              > Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong.
                              What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident
                              rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to
                              fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus
                              on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and
                              work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have
                              these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so
                              many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than
                              understanding the problem.
                              >
                              > Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the
                              mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget
                              transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been
                              stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I
                              also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned
                              to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent
                              that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the
                              budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view.
                              Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union
                              issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that
                              we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and
                              health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct
                              conflict with what the unions may want.
                              > Tammy Campbell
                              >
                              >
                              > Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                              > Tammy,
                              >
                              > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                              original
                              > incident?
                              >
                              > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                              teacher and
                              > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public
                              place at
                              > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a
                              total
                              > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                              > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what
                              he is
                              > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                              citizen) who
                              > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                              > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                              stop the
                              > incident.
                              >
                              > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether
                              or not
                              > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                              makes sense
                              > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                              conversation was
                              > about.
                              >
                              > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee
                              is not
                              > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                              > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                              member of
                              > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even
                              in the
                              > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                              appoint
                              > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                              in the
                              > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                              antipathy
                              > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                              > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                              choosing the
                              > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                              to be an
                              > absurd position.
                              >
                              > Charley Cowens
                              >
                              > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                              the event
                              > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                              > >
                              > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                              conversation
                              > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                              > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                              > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                              > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                              spent time
                              > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                              > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs
                              and the
                              > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                              last year
                              > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many
                              of us can
                              > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                              many of us
                              > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                              > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                              > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the
                              school
                              > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                              > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                              > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                              committee was
                              > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                              numbers,
                              > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                              numbers and
                              > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                              their side of
                              > > the story? Local One has been there.
                              > > Tammy Campbell
                              > >
                              > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                              > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                              > > teacher
                              > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                              > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                              > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                              > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school
                              board
                              > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                              intimidate me."
                              > >
                              > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                              > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                              > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                              > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                              > >
                              > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                              > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                              > > What kind of message does that send?
                              > >
                              > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                              > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                              over an
                              > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would
                              hope
                              > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                              > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                              > >
                              > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                              > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                              > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                              > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • jim cowen
                              Tammera Campbell wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey s behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident.



                                _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict between districts and unions.
                                This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and union/district conflicts, is it???
                                That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work stress.

                                When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it - what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the person committing the assault.

                                The root cause is Ramsey.

                                Jim



                                ---------------------------------
                                Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Cathy Travlos
                                There are two issues here. First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I m sure he d agree. He s not the only one who needs to do this
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  There are two issues here.
                                  First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I'm
                                  sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                  have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I disagreed
                                  with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                  report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                  example for our kids.
                                  Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                  UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However, the
                                  flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                  assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known him?
                                  Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                  is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt that
                                  being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                  district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                  It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                  member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                  when there are important issues at hand.

                                  Cathy

                                  jim cowen wrote:

                                  > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                  > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                  > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                  > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                  > cause behind the incident.
                                  >
                                  > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                  > between districts and unions.
                                  > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey
                                  > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                  > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                  > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                  > stress.
                                  >
                                  > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                  > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                  > person committing the assault.
                                  >
                                  > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                  >
                                  > Jim
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                  > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ralph Bedwell
                                  Scottie, Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars. You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on personal whim. This is not
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Scottie,

                                    Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                    You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                    personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                    student.

                                    I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                    we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                    school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                    or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                    etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                    personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                    But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                    essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                    optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                    put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                    can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                    that they need and deserve.

                                    Ralph

                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --Ralph:
                                    >
                                    > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                    district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                    need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                    of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                    expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                    momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Scottie Smith
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                    > >
                                    > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                    > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                    > >
                                    > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                    > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                    > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                    > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                    > >
                                    > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                    > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                    > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                    > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                    > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                    > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                    > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                    > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                    > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                    > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                    > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                    > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                    > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                    > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                    > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                    > >
                                    > > Ralph
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                    > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                    > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                    > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                    > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                    > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                    > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                    > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                    > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                    > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                    > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                    > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                    > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                    > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                    > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Scottie Smith
                                    > >
                                    > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Tammy,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                    > > original
                                    > > > > incident?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                    > > teacher and
                                    > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                    > > public place at
                                    > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                    > > a total
                                    > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                    > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                    > > what he is
                                    > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                    > > citizen) who
                                    > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                    incident.
                                    > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                    > > stop the
                                    > > > > incident.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                    > > whether or not
                                    > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                    > > makes sense
                                    > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                    > > conversation was
                                    > > > > about.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                    > > Committee is not
                                    > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                    fact,
                                    > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                    > > member of
                                    > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                    > > Even in the
                                    > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                    > > appoint
                                    > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                    > > in the
                                    > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                    > > antipathy
                                    > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                    > > Contract
                                    > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                    > > choosing the
                                    > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                    > > to be an
                                    > > > > absurd position.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Charley Cowens
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                    > > the event
                                    > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                    > > conversation
                                    > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                    > > that Mr.
                                    > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                    be that
                                    > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                    > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                    > > spent time
                                    > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                    > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                    > > costs and the
                                    > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                    > > last year
                                    > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                    > > many of us can
                                    > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                    > > many of us
                                    > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                    > > couple of
                                    > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                    Comittee
                                    > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                    > > the school
                                    > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                    > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                    > > Advisory
                                    > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                    > > committee was
                                    > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                    > > numbers,
                                    > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                    > > numbers and
                                    > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                    > > their side of
                                    > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                    > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                    that the
                                    > > > > > teacher
                                    > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                    say what
                                    > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                    > > to kill
                                    > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                    > > letter
                                    > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                    > > school board
                                    > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                    > > intimidate me."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                    > > Did the
                                    > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                    Was he
                                    > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                    > > not the
                                    > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                    cannot
                                    > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                    years.
                                    > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                    this a
                                    > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                    > > over an
                                    > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                    > > would hope
                                    > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                    confident
                                    > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                    > > no way
                                    > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                    in the
                                    > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                    Travel.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Mike Wasilchin
                                    Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night. At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night.



                                      At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                      suspensions and expulsions. The data is not real accurate as the manner in
                                      which the information is recorded varies from site to site and the
                                      application of District/Site policies is not administered equitably.
                                      Additionally, according to District data, students with discipline problems
                                      are no longer just transferred from one school to the next. For the most
                                      part, there are several types of programs that are being utilized to curb
                                      student behavior at a particular site prior to suspending and expelling the
                                      students. Some examples: CCC Probation department gets referrals from both
                                      the D.A. (via court decisions) and principals (they identify students at
                                      risk to intervene before they get in the system; there are a few mentor
                                      programs that are being utilized that have several levels to be able to
                                      offer support to repeat offenders; there are summits that students at risk
                                      are able to attend and then become proactive agents of change at their
                                      respective sites; peer counseling and conflict mediation is growing at both
                                      the elementary and secondary levels and appears to be having an impact; and
                                      the District is in the process of implementing character development at the
                                      middle schools, which is already in place in several elementary and proving
                                      to be quite successful; and there are also several community services that
                                      are available to youth that meet certain criteria (foster care, Spanish
                                      speaking, gang affiliations, etc.)



                                      While the data from the District is not completely accurate, it is a
                                      starting point. My position is that if you if you do not have accurate and
                                      complete data, one does not know how successful or unsuccessful a program or
                                      plan is. I have urged the District to ensure the data that is captured is
                                      as accurate as possible and that the data be shared with the public in
                                      several different arenas (Board of Education, District Safety Committee,
                                      School Site Councils, etc.) The ultimate goal is to make the schools safer
                                      through the implementation and ongoing modification of several different
                                      programs and mechanisms such that students know the rules and acceptable
                                      behaviors in the District and recognize the disciplines that will be
                                      administered when rules are broken. This is something that has not been
                                      consistently happening in this District for several years.



                                      This is just interpretation by attending all of the District Safety
                                      Committee Meetings for 2006/07 and following the safety issues on the Board
                                      of Education agendas.



                                      Michael Wasilchin

                                      Business Agent

                                      Public Employees Union, Local One

                                      4197 Lakeside Dr., Suite # 170

                                      Richmond, CA 94806

                                      Telephone # - (510) 222 - 5012

                                      Fax # - (510) 222 - 8858



                                      _____

                                      From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Ralph Bedwell
                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:20 PM
                                      To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech



                                      Scottie,

                                      Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                      You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                      personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                      student.

                                      I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                      we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                      school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                      or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                      etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                      personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                      But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                      essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                      optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                      put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                      can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                      that they need and deserve.

                                      Ralph

                                      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
                                      rcs101@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --Ralph:
                                      >
                                      > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                      district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                      need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                      of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                      expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                      momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Scottie Smith
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                      > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                      > >
                                      > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                      > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                      > >
                                      > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                      > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                      > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                      > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                      > >
                                      > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                      > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                      > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                      > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                      > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                      > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                      > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                      > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                      > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                      > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                      > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                      > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                      > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                      > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                      > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                      > >
                                      > > Ralph
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      ups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                      > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                      > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                      > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                      > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                      > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                      > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                      > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                      > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                      > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                      > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                      > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                      > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                      > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                      > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Scottie Smith
                                      > >
                                      > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                      > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Tammy,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                      > > original
                                      > > > > incident?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                      > > teacher and
                                      > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                      > > public place at
                                      > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                      > > a total
                                      > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                      > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                      > > what he is
                                      > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                      > > citizen) who
                                      > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                      incident.
                                      > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                      > > stop the
                                      > > > > incident.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                      > > whether or not
                                      > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                      > > makes sense
                                      > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                      > > conversation was
                                      > > > > about.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                      > > Committee is not
                                      > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                      fact,
                                      > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                      > > member of
                                      > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                      > > Even in the
                                      > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                      > > appoint
                                      > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                      > > in the
                                      > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                      > > antipathy
                                      > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                      > > Contract
                                      > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                      > > choosing the
                                      > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                      > > to be an
                                      > > > > absurd position.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Charley Cowens
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                      > > the event
                                      > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                      > > conversation
                                      > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                      > > that Mr.
                                      > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                      be that
                                      > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                      > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                      > > spent time
                                      > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                      > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                      > > costs and the
                                      > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                      > > last year
                                      > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                      > > many of us can
                                      > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                      > > many of us
                                      > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                      > > couple of
                                      > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                      Comittee
                                      > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                      > > the school
                                      > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                      > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                      > > Advisory
                                      > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                      > > committee was
                                      > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                      > > numbers,
                                      > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                      > > numbers and
                                      > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                      > > their side of
                                      > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                      > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                      that the
                                      > > > > > teacher
                                      > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                      say what
                                      > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                      > > to kill
                                      > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                      > > letter
                                      > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                      > > school board
                                      > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                      > > intimidate me."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                      > > Did the
                                      > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                      Was he
                                      > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                      > > not the
                                      > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                      cannot
                                      > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                      years.
                                      > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                      this a
                                      > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                      > > over an
                                      > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                      > > would hope
                                      > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                      confident
                                      > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                      > > no way
                                      > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                      in the
                                      > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                      Travel.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • rcs101@att.net
                                      --Ralph: I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --Ralph:

                                        I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide information to teachers and principals about all resources that are available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology, speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed, or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like teachers are in the same boat.

                                        It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems; and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders. Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to another, without using the available services that are to help students and teachers.

                                        There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful, therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning environment or the society.

                                        So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in the Fall?

                                        Scottie Smith




                                        -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                        From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                        >
                                        > Scottie,
                                        >
                                        > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                        >
                                        > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                        > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                        > student.
                                        >
                                        > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                        > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                        > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                        > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                        > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                        > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                        > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                        > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                        > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                        > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                        > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                        > that they need and deserve.
                                        >
                                        > Ralph
                                        >
                                        > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --Ralph:
                                        > >
                                        > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                        > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                        > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                        > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                        > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                        > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Scottie Smith
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                        > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                        > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                        > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                        > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                        > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                        > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                        > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                        > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                        > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                        > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                        > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                        > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                        > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                        > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                        > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                        > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                        > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                        > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                        > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ralph
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                        > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                        > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                        > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                        > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                        > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                        > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                        > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                        > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                        > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                        > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                        > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                        > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                        > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                        > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Scottie Smith
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                        > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Tammy,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                        > > > original
                                        > > > > > incident?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                        > > > teacher and
                                        > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                        > > > public place at
                                        > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                        > > > a total
                                        > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                        > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                        > > > what he is
                                        > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                        > > > citizen) who
                                        > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                        > incident.
                                        > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                        > > > stop the
                                        > > > > > incident.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                        > > > whether or not
                                        > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                        > > > makes sense
                                        > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                        > > > conversation was
                                        > > > > > about.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                        > > > Committee is not
                                        > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                        > fact,
                                        > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                        > > > member of
                                        > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                        > > > Even in the
                                        > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                        > > > appoint
                                        > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                        > > > in the
                                        > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                        > > > antipathy
                                        > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                        > > > Contract
                                        > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                        > > > choosing the
                                        > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                        > > > to be an
                                        > > > > > absurd position.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                        > > > the event
                                        > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                        > > > conversation
                                        > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                        > > > that Mr.
                                        > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                        > be that
                                        > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                        > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                        > > > spent time
                                        > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                        > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                        > > > costs and the
                                        > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                        > > > last year
                                        > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                        > > > many of us can
                                        > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                        > > > many of us
                                        > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                        > > > couple of
                                        > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                        > Comittee
                                        > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                        > > > the school
                                        > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                        > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                        > > > Advisory
                                        > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                        > > > committee was
                                        > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                        > > > numbers,
                                        > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                        > > > numbers and
                                        > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                        > > > their side of
                                        > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                        > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                        > that the
                                        > > > > > > teacher
                                        > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                        > say what
                                        > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                        > > > to kill
                                        > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                        > > > letter
                                        > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                        > > > school board
                                        > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                        > > > intimidate me."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                        > > > Did the
                                        > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                        > Was he
                                        > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                        > > > not the
                                        > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                        > cannot
                                        > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                        > years.
                                        > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                        > this a
                                        > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                        > > > over an
                                        > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                        > > > would hope
                                        > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                        > confident
                                        > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                        > > > no way
                                        > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                        > in the
                                        > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                        > Travel.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Diamel@aol.com
                                        Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be willing to help you. Diane Brown ************************************** Get a
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                          Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be
                                          willing to help you.

                                          Diane Brown



                                          ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
                                          http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rebecca494
                                          I think Cathy s posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going around yelling at
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                            I think Cathy's posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board
                                            Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going
                                            around yelling at each other; shouting obscenities and generally
                                            acting like jerks how can we expect the youth to behave differently?

                                            I don't think saying we should just get on with more important issues
                                            will curb the problem until we deal with the issue of modeling and the
                                            role that all of us adults are playing in the deterioration of the
                                            behavior of our youth. They model after the adults in their life.

                                            Since I know of many incidents of Mr. Ramsey losing his temper in
                                            public during the last 14 years I do not think he is a good role model
                                            for our youth and I would say that he is not successfully working on
                                            controlling his temper. Maybe the Board should require an anger
                                            management course for him to avoid a censure.

                                            What could the high school students have thought who witnessed that
                                            incident? What do our youth think when they see their adults modeling
                                            poor behavior?

                                            Of course the educational business of the district has to be conducted
                                            no matter what, but I do think the Board has to set some limits on
                                            continuous angry outbursts.

                                            Rebecca Hazlewood






                                            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > There are two issues here.
                                            > First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and
                                            I'm
                                            > sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                            > have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I
                                            disagreed
                                            > with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                            > report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                            > example for our kids.
                                            > Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                            > UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However,
                                            the
                                            > flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                            > assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known
                                            him?
                                            > Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                            > is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt
                                            that
                                            > being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                            > district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                            > It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                            > member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                            > when there are important issues at hand.
                                            >
                                            > Cathy
                                            >
                                            > jim cowen wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                            > > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                            > > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                            > > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                            > > cause behind the incident.
                                            > >
                                            > > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                            > > between districts and unions.
                                            > > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between
                                            Ramsey
                                            > > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                            > > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                            > > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                            > > stress.
                                            > >
                                            > > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                            > > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                            > > person committing the assault.
                                            > >
                                            > > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                            > >
                                            > > Jim
                                            > >
                                            > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                            > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • rebecca494
                                            Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this district since I
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                              Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to
                                              say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this
                                              district since I first met her in 1991, during bankruptcy meetings.
                                              Now of course each of us is unique and has our own way, but I must
                                              hand it to her for her aplomb, tenacity and dedication, and being a
                                              very positive role model for our youth.

                                              Rebecca





                                              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --Ralph:
                                              >
                                              > I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but
                                              plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a
                                              teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our
                                              students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide
                                              information to teachers and principals about all resources that are
                                              available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education
                                              psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology,
                                              speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug
                                              intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes
                                              on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that
                                              all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases
                                              intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware
                                              of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed,
                                              or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like
                                              teachers are in the same boat.
                                              >
                                              > It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they
                                              will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems;
                                              and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for
                                              intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly
                                              and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place
                                              to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders.
                                              Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to
                                              another, without using the available services that are to help
                                              students and teachers.
                                              >
                                              > There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can
                                              not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information
                                              about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment
                                              schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the
                                              district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful,
                                              therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help
                                              them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and
                                              student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning
                                              environment or the society.
                                              >
                                              > So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in
                                              the Fall?
                                              >
                                              > Scottie Smith
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                              > >
                                              > > Scottie,
                                              > >
                                              > > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                              > >
                                              > > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                              > > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                              > > student.
                                              > >
                                              > > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                              > > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                              > > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                              > > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                              > > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                              > > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                              > > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                              > > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                              > > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                              > > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                              > > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                              > > that they need and deserve.
                                              > >
                                              > > Ralph
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --Ralph:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                              > > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                              > > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                              > > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                              > > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                              > > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their
                                              behavior.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Scottie Smith
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              > > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@>
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                              > > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's
                                              behavior
                                              > > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or
                                              normal
                                              > > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example
                                              for young
                                              > > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a
                                              long
                                              > > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical
                                              safety of
                                              > > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting,
                                              other
                                              > > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                              > > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.).
                                              Personally,
                                              > > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                              > > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It
                                              sounds just
                                              > > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second
                                              chances" in
                                              > > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some
                                              point it is
                                              > > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their
                                              parents,
                                              > > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem
                                              student
                                              > > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                              > > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                              > > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student
                                              is just
                                              > > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Ralph
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident
                                              fairly
                                              > > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another
                                              board
                                              > > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the
                                              incident.
                                              > > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned
                                              about adult
                                              > > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                              > > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our
                                              behavior. I am
                                              > > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                              > > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                              > > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many
                                              students are
                                              > > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to
                                              help the
                                              > > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the
                                              increase
                                              > > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year,
                                              therefore,
                                              > > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the
                                              type of
                                              > > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not
                                              had the
                                              > > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Scottie Smith
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              > > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Tammy,
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story
                                              versus the
                                              > > > > original
                                              > > > > > > incident?
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                              > > > > teacher and
                                              > > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                              > > > > public place at
                                              > > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government
                                              official and
                                              > > > > a total
                                              > > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an
                                              at least
                                              > > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                              > > > > what he is
                                              > > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                              > > > > citizen) who
                                              > > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                              > > incident.
                                              > > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually
                                              intervene to
                                              > > > > stop the
                                              > > > > > > incident.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                              > > > > whether or not
                                              > > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or
                                              recall)
                                              > > > > makes sense
                                              > > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                              > > > > conversation was
                                              > > > > > > about.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                              > > > > Committee is not
                                              > > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                              > > fact,
                                              > > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be
                                              allowed to be
                                              > > > > member of
                                              > > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                              > > > > Even in the
                                              > > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not
                                              formally
                                              > > > > appoint
                                              > > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest
                                              members
                                              > > > > in the
                                              > > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part
                                              of the
                                              > > > > antipathy
                                              > > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                              > > > > Contract
                                              > > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                              > > > > choosing the
                                              > > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't
                                              consider it
                                              > > > > to be an
                                              > > > > > > absurd position.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the
                                              time of
                                              > > > > the event
                                              > > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                              > > > > conversation
                                              > > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why
                                              is it
                                              > > > > that Mr.
                                              > > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                              > > be that
                                              > > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels
                                              regarding the
                                              > > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have
                                              really
                                              > > > > spent time
                                              > > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD
                                              budget, the
                                              > > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                              > > > > costs and the
                                              > > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that
                                              in the
                                              > > > > last year
                                              > > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                                              How
                                              > > > > many of us can
                                              > > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining
                                              enrollment? How
                                              > > > > many of us
                                              > > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                              > > > > couple of
                                              > > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                              > > Comittee
                                              > > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us
                                              follow
                                              > > > > the school
                                              > > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                              > > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the
                                              Budget
                                              > > > > Advisory
                                              > > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point
                                              of the
                                              > > > > committee was
                                              > > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to
                                              analyze
                                              > > > > numbers,
                                              > > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to
                                              understand the
                                              > > > > numbers and
                                              > > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help
                                              us with
                                              > > > > their side of
                                              > > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                              > > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                              > > that the
                                              > > > > > > > teacher
                                              > > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                              > > say what
                                              > > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was
                                              going
                                              > > > > to kill
                                              > > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the
                                              teacher's
                                              > > > > letter
                                              > > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                              > > > > school board
                                              > > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                              > > > > intimidate me."
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat
                                              was.
                                              > > > > Did the
                                              > > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                              > > Was he
                                              > > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him?
                                              That is
                                              > > > > not the
                                              > > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                              > > cannot
                                              > > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                              > > years.
                                              > > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                              > > this a
                                              > > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a
                                              teacher fired
                                              > > > > over an
                                              > > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                              > > > > would hope
                                              > > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                              > > confident
                                              > > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher,
                                              that is
                                              > > > > no way
                                              > > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                              > > in the
                                              > > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                              > > Travel.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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