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Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech

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  • petr_loubal
    Below, an article in today s Times. As a firm believer in free speech I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be able to handle
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Below, an article in today's Times. As a firm believer in free speech
      I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be
      able to handle higher decibels, and learn to confront someone taller
      than they are, for a change. Threats of "legal action" are certainly
      more "bullying" than raising one's voice.

      I hope Charles Ramsey continues to speak his mind, as long as he lets
      others do the same. As forcefully as it takes to be heard.

      "Speak loudly, but drop the stick!"

      Peter
      -------------
      Trustee accused of bullying teacher
      # El Cerrito educator, volunteer say the West County school board
      member verbally attacked, threatened them
      By Kimberly S. Wetzel

      CONTRA COSTA TIMES
      Contra Costa Times
      Article Launched:07/05/2007 03:02:57 AM PDT
      A teacher and volunteer who say longtime West County school board
      member Charles Ramsey verbally attacked and threatened them in May are
      exploring legal options against him and the district.

      El Cerrito High School art teacher Steven Temple and school volunteer
      Marcia Osborn say Ramsey bullied them May 31 and shouted at them in
      front of other school workers and students.

      Ramsey called the encounter an argument between adults and said he did
      not threaten or verbally attack anyone.

      Temple filed a police report and said he hopes the school board will
      consider taking disciplinary action against Ramsey. El Cerrito police
      Chief Scott Kirkland said the report was filed for documentation
      purposes only, and there is no criminal investigation.

      Both Temple and Osborn said they are speaking with attorneys.

      "I feel that Mr. Ramsey was out of line, rude, belligerent and
      egotistical," Temple wrote in a report submitted to the El Cerrito
      Police Department, school board President Karen Pfeifer, the United
      Teachers of Richmond and El Cerrito High Principal Vince Rhea. "I
      believe that he tried to use his school board authority along with his
      aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

      Ramsey was investigated by fellow board members a couple of years ago
      after threatening and cursing at a sound technician during a board
      meeting. He was criticized in the fall for confronting and cursing at
      a fellow school board candidate, also during a board meeting.

      This week, he said the May incident was "unfortunate."

      "Of course I regret it any time two people get into an argument,"
      Ramsey said. "Yeah, it got loud, but they got loud back."

      Temple said Ramsey confronted him in the El Cerrito High office about
      2:45 p.m. after overhearing Temple say something about the ongoing
      contract dispute between the teachers union and the district.

      Ramsey, who was in the back of the office talking to a secretary,
      approached Temple and told him he didn't know what he was talking
      about, Temple says.

      "I had no idea who he was, so I asked him," Temple said. "He curtly
      replied, 'You don't know me? I'm Charles Ramsey, a school board member.'"

      Ramsey, who stands more than 6 feet tall, then became angry and
      started shouting at Temple, who is 5 feet 6 inches tall, Temple said.

      "He then walked around the corner, glared down on me from a few inches
      away, pointed his finger at my chest and said 'You don't talk to me
      that way,'" Temple said in his report, adding that Ramsey shouted that
      Temple was "ignorant" and "out of line."

      The shouting continued until Osborn, who was talking with a school
      employee, noticed that students and staff had gathered to watch. She
      said she then told Ramsey to keep it down.

      "He then turned on me and started yelling and screaming at me," Osborn
      wrote in her complaint to the district, adding that Ramsey told her to
      "shut up" and said she was "nobody" as he backed her against a window.

      "I was afraid, you'd better believe it," Osborn told the Times. "I'm
      5-11, and I'm not very intimidated. But I was scared. I thought, 'Oh,
      my God, this guy is going to hit me.'"

      According to Osborn and Temple, Ramsey continued to shout until El
      Cerrito Assistant Principal Elizabeth Watson entered and asked Ramsey
      to calm down and leave. Watson recently left the district but did file
      a written report that concurs with Temple and Osborn's version of events.

      Ramsey maintains the incident was an argument, nothing more, and that
      he did not threaten or attack anyone. He said he apologized to Osborn
      but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police
      report against him.

      Ramsey said he was upset because he had received about 100 calls from
      teachers regarding the contract dispute between the union and
      district. A union flier had circulated accusing the school board of
      reneging on a tentative agreement and encouraging teachers to call
      members to complain.

      The flier was inaccurate, Ramsey said, and he hoped to clear up the
      misconceptions. He said that Temple accused the school board of
      stealing teachers' money, which is what upset him.

      Temple, a 32-year district employee, said he never made the comment
      about the district stealing money and that the incident caused him
      stress and made him concerned for the security of his job. He said he
      saw Ramsey on campus again the next day.

      "It was almost debilitating," Temple said. "I was in a knot. This guy
      could get me fired."

      Temple and Osborn said they believe Ramsey should take
      anger-management classes or resign.

      "You can't do this to people," Osborn said. "Especially when you're in
      the public eye. It's not acceptable under any circumstances."

      Pfeifer, the board president, said she has no plans to initiate an
      investigation.

      "It's been a difficult time, and I'm sorry that Charles lost his
      temper," Pfeifer said. "I've been told that he has apologized to all
      the people involved in the incident. My statement about this incident
      is it seems very small compared to the huge amount of good work
      Charles Ramsey does for the district. And I would be very sorry to see
      that good work overshadowed."

      Reach Kimberly S. Wetzel at 510-262-2798 or kwetzel@....
    • Ralph Bedwell
      So we should teach kids to argue, yell, and physically intimidate others with whom they disagree? How civilized. ... member. ... events.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        So we should teach kids to argue, yell, and physically intimidate
        others with whom they disagree? How civilized.


        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "petr_loubal" <ploubal@...> wrote:
        >
        > Below, an article in today's Times. As a firm believer in free speech
        > I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be
        > able to handle higher decibels, and learn to confront someone taller
        > than they are, for a change. Threats of "legal action" are certainly
        > more "bullying" than raising one's voice.
        >
        > I hope Charles Ramsey continues to speak his mind, as long as he lets
        > others do the same. As forcefully as it takes to be heard.
        >
        > "Speak loudly, but drop the stick!"
        >
        > Peter
        > -------------
        > Trustee accused of bullying teacher
        > # El Cerrito educator, volunteer say the West County school board
        > member verbally attacked, threatened them
        > By Kimberly S. Wetzel
        >
        > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
        > Contra Costa Times
        > Article Launched:07/05/2007 03:02:57 AM PDT
        > A teacher and volunteer who say longtime West County school board
        > member Charles Ramsey verbally attacked and threatened them in May are
        > exploring legal options against him and the district.
        >
        > El Cerrito High School art teacher Steven Temple and school volunteer
        > Marcia Osborn say Ramsey bullied them May 31 and shouted at them in
        > front of other school workers and students.
        >
        > Ramsey called the encounter an argument between adults and said he did
        > not threaten or verbally attack anyone.
        >
        > Temple filed a police report and said he hopes the school board will
        > consider taking disciplinary action against Ramsey. El Cerrito police
        > Chief Scott Kirkland said the report was filed for documentation
        > purposes only, and there is no criminal investigation.
        >
        > Both Temple and Osborn said they are speaking with attorneys.
        >
        > "I feel that Mr. Ramsey was out of line, rude, belligerent and
        > egotistical," Temple wrote in a report submitted to the El Cerrito
        > Police Department, school board President Karen Pfeifer, the United
        > Teachers of Richmond and El Cerrito High Principal Vince Rhea. "I
        > believe that he tried to use his school board authority along with his
        > aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
        >
        > Ramsey was investigated by fellow board members a couple of years ago
        > after threatening and cursing at a sound technician during a board
        > meeting. He was criticized in the fall for confronting and cursing at
        > a fellow school board candidate, also during a board meeting.
        >
        > This week, he said the May incident was "unfortunate."
        >
        > "Of course I regret it any time two people get into an argument,"
        > Ramsey said. "Yeah, it got loud, but they got loud back."
        >
        > Temple said Ramsey confronted him in the El Cerrito High office about
        > 2:45 p.m. after overhearing Temple say something about the ongoing
        > contract dispute between the teachers union and the district.
        >
        > Ramsey, who was in the back of the office talking to a secretary,
        > approached Temple and told him he didn't know what he was talking
        > about, Temple says.
        >
        > "I had no idea who he was, so I asked him," Temple said. "He curtly
        > replied, 'You don't know me? I'm Charles Ramsey, a school board
        member.'"
        >
        > Ramsey, who stands more than 6 feet tall, then became angry and
        > started shouting at Temple, who is 5 feet 6 inches tall, Temple said.
        >
        > "He then walked around the corner, glared down on me from a few inches
        > away, pointed his finger at my chest and said 'You don't talk to me
        > that way,'" Temple said in his report, adding that Ramsey shouted that
        > Temple was "ignorant" and "out of line."
        >
        > The shouting continued until Osborn, who was talking with a school
        > employee, noticed that students and staff had gathered to watch. She
        > said she then told Ramsey to keep it down.
        >
        > "He then turned on me and started yelling and screaming at me," Osborn
        > wrote in her complaint to the district, adding that Ramsey told her to
        > "shut up" and said she was "nobody" as he backed her against a window.
        >
        > "I was afraid, you'd better believe it," Osborn told the Times. "I'm
        > 5-11, and I'm not very intimidated. But I was scared. I thought, 'Oh,
        > my God, this guy is going to hit me.'"
        >
        > According to Osborn and Temple, Ramsey continued to shout until El
        > Cerrito Assistant Principal Elizabeth Watson entered and asked Ramsey
        > to calm down and leave. Watson recently left the district but did file
        > a written report that concurs with Temple and Osborn's version of
        events.
        >
        > Ramsey maintains the incident was an argument, nothing more, and that
        > he did not threaten or attack anyone. He said he apologized to Osborn
        > but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police
        > report against him.
        >
        > Ramsey said he was upset because he had received about 100 calls from
        > teachers regarding the contract dispute between the union and
        > district. A union flier had circulated accusing the school board of
        > reneging on a tentative agreement and encouraging teachers to call
        > members to complain.
        >
        > The flier was inaccurate, Ramsey said, and he hoped to clear up the
        > misconceptions. He said that Temple accused the school board of
        > stealing teachers' money, which is what upset him.
        >
        > Temple, a 32-year district employee, said he never made the comment
        > about the district stealing money and that the incident caused him
        > stress and made him concerned for the security of his job. He said he
        > saw Ramsey on campus again the next day.
        >
        > "It was almost debilitating," Temple said. "I was in a knot. This guy
        > could get me fired."
        >
        > Temple and Osborn said they believe Ramsey should take
        > anger-management classes or resign.
        >
        > "You can't do this to people," Osborn said. "Especially when you're in
        > the public eye. It's not acceptable under any circumstances."
        >
        > Pfeifer, the board president, said she has no plans to initiate an
        > investigation.
        >
        > "It's been a difficult time, and I'm sorry that Charles lost his
        > temper," Pfeifer said. "I've been told that he has apologized to all
        > the people involved in the incident. My statement about this incident
        > is it seems very small compared to the huge amount of good work
        > Charles Ramsey does for the district. And I would be very sorry to see
        > that good work overshadowed."
        >
        > Reach Kimberly S. Wetzel at 510-262-2798 or kwetzel@...
        >
      • jim cowen
        Peter I couldn t disagree more. The article doesnt give much of Ramseys side of the story, but the whole alledged scenario follows the pattern. The idea that
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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          Peter I couldn't disagree more.

          The article doesnt give much of Ramseys side of the story, but the whole alledged scenario follows the pattern.

          The idea that Ramsey was miffed because they did not know who he is also follows a pattern. Ramsey likes to regally strut around school campuses. He has a long history of bullying, threatening, intimidating.

          A while back, when he said to a sound technician DURING A SCHOOL BOARD MEETING that they should "Take it outside" it was disgusting.

          Ramsey forgets that he serves the people. He acts as if he expects the people - teachers, students, parents, voters - to serve him.

          According to Times writer Ms. Wetzel, "He (Ramsey) said he apologized to Osborn but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police report against him." That is a sad, sad comment coming from an elected official. It makes him sound like a schoolyard crybaby-bully in the principals office.

          Ramsey puts forth a huge amount of energy in the school district (I bet more than anyone else). If he could learn to focus that energy on what is best for the students and his constituents instead of what is best for his own ego and status, then he could be a great man.

          But, unless and until that happens, it will continue to baffle me how any voter could ever put a check by his name.

          (as an aside, Ms Pfeifer sure doesnt do herself any favors by defending him. If I were her political consultant I would advise her to never say anything about Ramsey!!)

          Jim Cowen

          petr_loubal <ploubal@...> wrote:
          Below, an article in today's Times. As a firm believer in free speech
          I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be
          able to handle higher decibels, and learn to confront someone taller
          than they are, for a change. Threats of "legal action" are certainly
          more "bullying" than raising one's voice.

          I hope Charles Ramsey continues to speak his mind, as long as he lets
          others do the same. As forcefully as it takes to be heard.

          "Speak loudly, but drop the stick!"

          Peter
          -------------
          Trustee accused of bullying teacher
          # El Cerrito educator, volunteer say the West County school board
          member verbally attacked, threatened them
          By Kimberly S. Wetzel

          CONTRA COSTA TIMES
          Contra Costa Times
          Article Launched:07/05/2007 03:02:57 AM PDT
          A teacher and volunteer who say longtime West County school board
          member Charles Ramsey verbally attacked and threatened them in May are
          exploring legal options against him and the district.

          El Cerrito High School art teacher Steven Temple and school volunteer
          Marcia Osborn say Ramsey bullied them May 31 and shouted at them in
          front of other school workers and students.

          Ramsey called the encounter an argument between adults and said he did
          not threaten or verbally attack anyone.

          Temple filed a police report and said he hopes the school board will
          consider taking disciplinary action against Ramsey. El Cerrito police
          Chief Scott Kirkland said the report was filed for documentation
          purposes only, and there is no criminal investigation.

          Both Temple and Osborn said they are speaking with attorneys.

          "I feel that Mr. Ramsey was out of line, rude, belligerent and
          egotistical," Temple wrote in a report submitted to the El Cerrito
          Police Department, school board President Karen Pfeifer, the United
          Teachers of Richmond and El Cerrito High Principal Vince Rhea. "I
          believe that he tried to use his school board authority along with his
          aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

          Ramsey was investigated by fellow board members a couple of years ago
          after threatening and cursing at a sound technician during a board
          meeting. He was criticized in the fall for confronting and cursing at
          a fellow school board candidate, also during a board meeting.

          This week, he said the May incident was "unfortunate."

          "Of course I regret it any time two people get into an argument,"
          Ramsey said. "Yeah, it got loud, but they got loud back."

          Temple said Ramsey confronted him in the El Cerrito High office about
          2:45 p.m. after overhearing Temple say something about the ongoing
          contract dispute between the teachers union and the district.

          Ramsey, who was in the back of the office talking to a secretary,
          approached Temple and told him he didn't know what he was talking
          about, Temple says.

          "I had no idea who he was, so I asked him," Temple said. "He curtly
          replied, 'You don't know me? I'm Charles Ramsey, a school board member.'"

          Ramsey, who stands more than 6 feet tall, then became angry and
          started shouting at Temple, who is 5 feet 6 inches tall, Temple said.

          "He then walked around the corner, glared down on me from a few inches
          away, pointed his finger at my chest and said 'You don't talk to me
          that way,'" Temple said in his report, adding that Ramsey shouted that
          Temple was "ignorant" and "out of line."

          The shouting continued until Osborn, who was talking with a school
          employee, noticed that students and staff had gathered to watch. She
          said she then told Ramsey to keep it down.

          "He then turned on me and started yelling and screaming at me," Osborn
          wrote in her complaint to the district, adding that Ramsey told her to
          "shut up" and said she was "nobody" as he backed her against a window.

          "I was afraid, you'd better believe it," Osborn told the Times. "I'm
          5-11, and I'm not very intimidated. But I was scared. I thought, 'Oh,
          my God, this guy is going to hit me.'"

          According to Osborn and Temple, Ramsey continued to shout until El
          Cerrito Assistant Principal Elizabeth Watson entered and asked Ramsey
          to calm down and leave. Watson recently left the district but did file
          a written report that concurs with Temple and Osborn's version of events.

          Ramsey maintains the incident was an argument, nothing more, and that
          he did not threaten or attack anyone. He said he apologized to Osborn
          but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police
          report against him.

          Ramsey said he was upset because he had received about 100 calls from
          teachers regarding the contract dispute between the union and
          district. A union flier had circulated accusing the school board of
          reneging on a tentative agreement and encouraging teachers to call
          members to complain.

          The flier was inaccurate, Ramsey said, and he hoped to clear up the
          misconceptions. He said that Temple accused the school board of
          stealing teachers' money, which is what upset him.

          Temple, a 32-year district employee, said he never made the comment
          about the district stealing money and that the incident caused him
          stress and made him concerned for the security of his job. He said he
          saw Ramsey on campus again the next day.

          "It was almost debilitating," Temple said. "I was in a knot. This guy
          could get me fired."

          Temple and Osborn said they believe Ramsey should take
          anger-management classes or resign.

          "You can't do this to people," Osborn said. "Especially when you're in
          the public eye. It's not acceptable under any circumstances."

          Pfeifer, the board president, said she has no plans to initiate an
          investigation.

          "It's been a difficult time, and I'm sorry that Charles lost his
          temper," Pfeifer said. "I've been told that he has apologized to all
          the people involved in the incident. My statement about this incident
          is it seems very small compared to the huge amount of good work
          Charles Ramsey does for the district. And I would be very sorry to see
          that good work overshadowed."

          Reach Kimberly S. Wetzel at 510-262-2798 or kwetzel@....






          ---------------------------------
          Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • petr_loubal
          Jim, thanks for responding. This topic deserves more discussion, I d love to hear from others, and Charles Ramsey needs to know what people think. The
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Jim, thanks for responding. This topic deserves more discussion, I'd
            love to hear from others, and Charles Ramsey needs to know what people
            think.

            The tendency of elected officials to "strut, bully, threaten,
            intimidate" is exactly the reason why we need to accept what (in the
            US rather than Europe) may be seen as "loud, strident, insulting"
            comments. My experience with the El Cerrito City Council is that they
            love to be subtly insulting, i.e...."please wind up, your two minutes
            are up" after they obviously did not listen, while watching the clock
            rather than the speaker. Being "up there" on the dais, with unlimited
            opportunities to respond, gives them an unfair advantage in acting
            regal.

            I have argued this issue with friends for a dozen years now, and still
            am convinced that dignifies softness and politeness doesn't stand a
            chance against an entrenched bureaucracy/political-in-group. But they
            want respect, and do very poorly with outspoken criticism. I wouldn't
            rub a puppy's nose its dirt (especially since my wife may let it sleep
            in our bed), but have no qualms about a politician.

            And, by the way, this is the main reason why in spite of all the
            stupidity and mistakes, freer society are likely to win against
            totalitarian and fundamentalist systems, in the long run. This is not
            a trivial issue.

            Peter
            --------------------------
            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, jim cowen <jimcowen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Peter I couldn't disagree more.
            >
            > The article doesnt give much of Ramseys side of the story, but the
            whole alledged scenario follows the pattern.
            >
            > The idea that Ramsey was miffed because they did not know who he
            is also follows a pattern. Ramsey likes to regally strut around
            school campuses. He has a long history of bullying, threatening,
            intimidating.
            >
            > A while back, when he said to a sound technician DURING A SCHOOL
            BOARD MEETING that they should "Take it outside" it was disgusting.
            >
            > Ramsey forgets that he serves the people. He acts as if he
            expects the people - teachers, students, parents, voters - to serve him.
            >
            > According to Times writer Ms. Wetzel, "He (Ramsey) said he
            apologized to Osborn but has not apologized to Temple because Temple
            initiated the police report against him." That is a sad, sad comment
            coming from an elected official. It makes him sound like a schoolyard
            crybaby-bully in the principals office.
            >
            > Ramsey puts forth a huge amount of energy in the school district
            (I bet more than anyone else). If he could learn to focus that energy
            on what is best for the students and his constituents instead of what
            is best for his own ego and status, then he could be a great man.
            >
            > But, unless and until that happens, it will continue to baffle me
            how any voter could ever put a check by his name.
            >
            > (as an aside, Ms Pfeifer sure doesnt do herself any favors by
            defending him. If I were her political consultant I would advise her
            to never say anything about Ramsey!!)
            >
            > Jim Cowen
            >
            > petr_loubal <ploubal@...> wrote:
            > Below, an article in today's Times. As a firm believer in
            free speech
            > I feel that people have a right to express anger. Teachers should be
            > able to handle higher decibels, and learn to confront someone taller
            > than they are, for a change. Threats of "legal action" are certainly
            > more "bullying" than raising one's voice.
            >
            > I hope Charles Ramsey continues to speak his mind, as long as he lets
            > others do the same. As forcefully as it takes to be heard.
            >
            > "Speak loudly, but drop the stick!"
            >
            > Peter
            > -------------
            > Trustee accused of bullying teacher
            > # El Cerrito educator, volunteer say the West County school board
            > member verbally attacked, threatened them
            > By Kimberly S. Wetzel
            >
            > CONTRA COSTA TIMES
            > Contra Costa Times
            > Article Launched:07/05/2007 03:02:57 AM PDT
            > A teacher and volunteer who say longtime West County school board
            > member Charles Ramsey verbally attacked and threatened them in May are
            > exploring legal options against him and the district.
            >
            > El Cerrito High School art teacher Steven Temple and school volunteer
            > Marcia Osborn say Ramsey bullied them May 31 and shouted at them in
            > front of other school workers and students.
            >
            > Ramsey called the encounter an argument between adults and said he did
            > not threaten or verbally attack anyone.
            >
            > Temple filed a police report and said he hopes the school board will
            > consider taking disciplinary action against Ramsey. El Cerrito police
            > Chief Scott Kirkland said the report was filed for documentation
            > purposes only, and there is no criminal investigation.
            >
            > Both Temple and Osborn said they are speaking with attorneys.
            >
            > "I feel that Mr. Ramsey was out of line, rude, belligerent and
            > egotistical," Temple wrote in a report submitted to the El Cerrito
            > Police Department, school board President Karen Pfeifer, the United
            > Teachers of Richmond and El Cerrito High Principal Vince Rhea. "I
            > believe that he tried to use his school board authority along with his
            > aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
            >
            > Ramsey was investigated by fellow board members a couple of years ago
            > after threatening and cursing at a sound technician during a board
            > meeting. He was criticized in the fall for confronting and cursing at
            > a fellow school board candidate, also during a board meeting.
            >
            > This week, he said the May incident was "unfortunate."
            >
            > "Of course I regret it any time two people get into an argument,"
            > Ramsey said. "Yeah, it got loud, but they got loud back."
            >
            > Temple said Ramsey confronted him in the El Cerrito High office about
            > 2:45 p.m. after overhearing Temple say something about the ongoing
            > contract dispute between the teachers union and the district.
            >
            > Ramsey, who was in the back of the office talking to a secretary,
            > approached Temple and told him he didn't know what he was talking
            > about, Temple says.
            >
            > "I had no idea who he was, so I asked him," Temple said. "He curtly
            > replied, 'You don't know me? I'm Charles Ramsey, a school board
            member.'"
            >
            > Ramsey, who stands more than 6 feet tall, then became angry and
            > started shouting at Temple, who is 5 feet 6 inches tall, Temple said.
            >
            > "He then walked around the corner, glared down on me from a few inches
            > away, pointed his finger at my chest and said 'You don't talk to me
            > that way,'" Temple said in his report, adding that Ramsey shouted that
            > Temple was "ignorant" and "out of line."
            >
            > The shouting continued until Osborn, who was talking with a school
            > employee, noticed that students and staff had gathered to watch. She
            > said she then told Ramsey to keep it down.
            >
            > "He then turned on me and started yelling and screaming at me," Osborn
            > wrote in her complaint to the district, adding that Ramsey told her to
            > "shut up" and said she was "nobody" as he backed her against a window.
            >
            > "I was afraid, you'd better believe it," Osborn told the Times. "I'm
            > 5-11, and I'm not very intimidated. But I was scared. I thought, 'Oh,
            > my God, this guy is going to hit me.'"
            >
            > According to Osborn and Temple, Ramsey continued to shout until El
            > Cerrito Assistant Principal Elizabeth Watson entered and asked Ramsey
            > to calm down and leave. Watson recently left the district but did file
            > a written report that concurs with Temple and Osborn's version of
            events.
            >
            > Ramsey maintains the incident was an argument, nothing more, and that
            > he did not threaten or attack anyone. He said he apologized to Osborn
            > but has not apologized to Temple because Temple initiated the police
            > report against him.
            >
            > Ramsey said he was upset because he had received about 100 calls from
            > teachers regarding the contract dispute between the union and
            > district. A union flier had circulated accusing the school board of
            > reneging on a tentative agreement and encouraging teachers to call
            > members to complain.
            >
            > The flier was inaccurate, Ramsey said, and he hoped to clear up the
            > misconceptions. He said that Temple accused the school board of
            > stealing teachers' money, which is what upset him.
            >
            > Temple, a 32-year district employee, said he never made the comment
            > about the district stealing money and that the incident caused him
            > stress and made him concerned for the security of his job. He said he
            > saw Ramsey on campus again the next day.
            >
            > "It was almost debilitating," Temple said. "I was in a knot. This guy
            > could get me fired."
            >
            > Temple and Osborn said they believe Ramsey should take
            > anger-management classes or resign.
            >
            > "You can't do this to people," Osborn said. "Especially when you're in
            > the public eye. It's not acceptable under any circumstances."
            >
            > Pfeifer, the board president, said she has no plans to initiate an
            > investigation.
            >
            > "It's been a difficult time, and I'm sorry that Charles lost his
            > temper," Pfeifer said. "I've been told that he has apologized to all
            > the people involved in the incident. My statement about this incident
            > is it seems very small compared to the huge amount of good work
            > Charles Ramsey does for the district. And I would be very sorry to see
            > that good work overshadowed."
            >
            > Reach Kimberly S. Wetzel at 510-262-2798 or kwetzel@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security
            of spyware protection.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • gregorychang
            Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be better served by
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the sound
              technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
              better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in my
              limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
              sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a more
              appropriate manner.

              Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat laughable.
              To file a police report because he got in an argument and was yelled
              at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
              feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other adults
              in different professions filed police reports every time they were
              yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
              paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget it
              and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that Mr.
              Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike the
              previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
              People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real world!

              I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
              she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
              and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
              did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
              probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the debate.

              We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
              challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
              passion although I hope in the future he can control it and channel
              it in other ways.

              The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the tension
              between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to bury
              their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
              district faces many challenges. How can we work productively towards
              solving them if we are not all on the same page?

              As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a family
              headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
              easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
              generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
              the students and do not interact as much with other adults as those
              in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom and
              their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and disagrees
              passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
              the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on personal
              experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
              there will be exceptions to this observation.)
            • gregorychang
              I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what shape or form the threat
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

                So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

                Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                What kind of message does that send?

                Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

                Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
              • gawolinsky
                I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole; money better spent on teacher
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think Board President Pfeifer made a wise decision in not
                  initiating an investigation here. Just more money down the hole;
                  money better spent on teacher salaries and educating the next
                  generation who, one hopes, will be more effective stewards than our
                  current one . . . Perhaps some of the savings could be spent on
                  anger management counseling or workshops to help us keep civil
                  discourse civil.

                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Although I wasnt around when Mr. Ramsey allegedly yelled at the
                  sound
                  > technician, I agree he may have a short fuse and would probably be
                  > better served by controlling his temper a little more. However, in
                  my
                  > limited experience, I feel he is a passionate individual and
                  > sometimes that will come out. It just needs to be channeled in a
                  more
                  > appropriate manner.
                  >
                  > Still, I find the reaction of the teacher to be somewhat
                  laughable.
                  > To file a police report because he got in an argument and was
                  yelled
                  > at? This does not reflect good judgement and is not appropriate. I
                  > feel the teacher was out of line in this situation. If other
                  adults
                  > in different professions filed police reports every time they were
                  > yelled at, our public safety professionals would be drowned in
                  > paperwork. The best thing for him to do would have been to forget
                  it
                  > and move on and not be so sensitive. There is no indication that
                  Mr.
                  > Ramsey ever threatened the teacher with physical violence, unlike
                  the
                  > previous case with the sound technician, according to the article.
                  > People get yelled at by their bosses all the time in the real
                  world!
                  >
                  > I'm also not surprised that the parent was yelled at. The fact is,
                  > she butted into a heated discussion/argument between two grown-ups
                  > and apparently took the side of the teacher. What kind of reaction
                  > did she expect? If I was in the position of Mr. Ramsey I would
                  > probably yell at her too after she injected herself into the
                  debate.
                  >
                  > We dont want milquetoast individuals leading us through the many
                  > challenges we face as a society. I for one welcome Mr. Ramsey's
                  > passion although I hope in the future he can control it and
                  channel
                  > it in other ways.
                  >
                  > The more troubling issue is that this incident highlights the
                  tension
                  > between our teachers and our school board. Will they be able to
                  bury
                  > their differences and avoid a strike? Even more important, our
                  > district faces many challenges. How can we work productively
                  towards
                  > solving them if we are not all on the same page?
                  >
                  > As an aside and a general comment, as the youngest child in a
                  family
                  > headed by two teachers, I believe that teachers in general do not
                  > easily tolerate dissent or disagreement. In the workplace they
                  > generally spend most of their time in a position of authority over
                  > the students and do not interact as much with other adults as
                  those
                  > in other professions. They are kings and queens of the classroom
                  and
                  > their word is usually law. So when someone comes along and
                  disagrees
                  > passionately with them, they may not know how to react. Running to
                  > the police is not the right approach. (this is just based on
                  personal
                  > experience in terms of dealing with my own parents and certainly
                  > there will be exceptions to this observation.)
                  >
                • Ralph Bedwell
                  I don t know anything about this particular situation other than what I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I m pretty sure that if a person is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I don't know anything about this particular situation other than what
                    I read in the CCT article, but as a general point I'm pretty sure that
                    if a person is threatened with a physical attack and he/she reasonably
                    believes that said attack will occur, that meets the legal definition
                    of assault (people commonly get assault confused with battery, which
                    is the actual physical battering, but they are not the same). I don't
                    think a person would be a "wimp" if they filed charges in such an
                    instance. Rather, they would be using the established system as it's
                    intended and setting a good example for our young people who too often
                    take matters into their own hands -- mainly so that they don't appear
                    to be "wimpy" (disrespected) -- and perform tragic acts of violence.


                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "gregorychang" <gregorychang@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                    > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                    > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                    > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                    > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                    > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                    >
                    > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                    > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                    > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                    > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                    >
                    > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                    > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                    > What kind of message does that send?
                    >
                    > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                    > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                    > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                    > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                    > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                    >
                    > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                    > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                    > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                    >
                  • Tammera Campbell
                    I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation. I am hoping that everyone will focus
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event rather than months later. Just an observation.

                      I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                      presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story? Local One has been there.
                      Tammy Campbell

                      gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                      I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                      alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                      shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                      the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                      cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                      authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."

                      So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                      teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                      frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                      same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.

                      Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                      recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                      What kind of message does that send?

                      Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                      legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                      argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                      our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                      that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.

                      Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                      to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                      article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.






                      ---------------------------------
                      Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • spricco@comcast.net
                      Just a minute. I ve been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Just a minute. I've been seeing a lot of speculation here. Why the press does not publish something is not the issue. Neither is the budget. It is certainly not free speech. The issue is bullying behavior. Take personalities out of this for a moment. Was the behavior something that you or I or anyone would tolerate from a student? Would it be tolerated in dealing with another adult? While I do not know what actually transpired, if there was bullying behavior, it needs to be stopped.


                        -------------- Original message --------------
                        From: Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...>

                        > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                        > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                        >
                        > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation that
                        > was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr. Ramsey and
                        > the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that communication has not
                        > yet occurred at all levels regarding the budget? Let's be honest, how many
                        > people out there have really spent time understanding public educational
                        > funding, the WCCUSD budget, the ramifications of declining enrollment, increased
                        > health care costs and the impact of small schools? How many of us understand
                        > that in the last year Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                        > How many of us can quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment?
                        > How many of us can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                        > couple of years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                        > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school board
                        > meetings and bother to understand the budget
                        > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory meetings
                        > to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was to bring
                        > stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers, questions the
                        > numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and the bigger
                        > picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of the story?
                        > Local One has been there.
                        > Tammy Campbell
                        >
                        > gregorychang wrote:
                        > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the teacher
                        > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                        > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                        > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                        > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                        > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                        >
                        > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                        > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                        > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                        > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                        >
                        > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                        > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                        > What kind of message does that send?
                        >
                        > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                        > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                        > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                        > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                        > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                        >
                        > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                        > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                        > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Charley Cowens
                        Tammy, Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original incident? Let s focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Tammy,

                          Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                          incident?

                          Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                          citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                          El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                          stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                          proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                          saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                          had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                          Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                          incident.

                          It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                          a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                          in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                          about.

                          Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                          to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                          originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                          the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                          compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                          members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                          appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                          of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                          requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                          teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                          absurd position.

                          Charley Cowens

                          On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                          > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                          >
                          > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                          > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                          > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                          > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                          > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                          > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                          > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                          > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                          > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                          > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                          > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                          > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                          > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                          > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                          > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                          > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                          > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                          > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                          > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                          > the story? Local One has been there.
                          > Tammy Campbell
                          >
                          > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                          > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                          > teacher
                          > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                          > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                          > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                          > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                          > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                          >
                          > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                          > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                          > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                          > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                          >
                          > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                          > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                          > What kind of message does that send?
                          >
                          > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                          > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                          > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                          > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                          > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                          >
                          > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                          > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                          > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • rcs101@att.net
                          --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident. Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore, the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the opportunity with support, for a 2 o
                            r 3rd chance.

                            Scottie Smith




                            -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                            >
                            > Tammy,
                            >
                            > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                            > incident?
                            >
                            > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                            > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                            > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                            > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                            > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                            > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                            > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                            > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                            > incident.
                            >
                            > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                            > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                            > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                            > about.
                            >
                            > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                            > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                            > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                            > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                            > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                            > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                            > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                            > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                            > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                            > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                            > absurd position.
                            >
                            > Charley Cowens
                            >
                            > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                            > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                            > >
                            > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                            > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                            > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                            > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                            > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                            > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                            > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                            > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                            > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                            > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                            > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                            > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                            > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                            > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                            > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                            > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                            > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                            > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                            > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                            > > the story? Local One has been there.
                            > > Tammy Campbell
                            > >
                            > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                            > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                            > > teacher
                            > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                            > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                            > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                            > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                            > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                            > >
                            > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                            > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                            > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                            > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                            > >
                            > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                            > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                            > > What kind of message does that send?
                            > >
                            > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                            > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                            > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                            > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                            > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                            > >
                            > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                            > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                            > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Ralph Bedwell
                            Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are being made other than Mr. Ramsey s? While I do strongly feel that a school district
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                              being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?

                              While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                              needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                              human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                              people, I think these are two separate issues.

                              Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                              pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                              other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                              forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                              educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                              based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                              tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                              from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                              order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                              just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                              teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                              to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                              that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                              means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                              moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)

                              Ralph


                              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                              >
                              > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                              recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                              member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                              Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                              behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                              conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                              constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                              students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                              mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                              expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                              students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                              in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                              the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                              rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                              opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                              >
                              > Scottie Smith

                              > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                              > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                              > >
                              > > Tammy,
                              > >
                              > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                              original
                              > > incident?
                              > >
                              > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                              teacher and
                              > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                              public place at
                              > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                              a total
                              > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                              > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                              what he is
                              > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                              citizen) who
                              > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                              > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                              stop the
                              > > incident.
                              > >
                              > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                              whether or not
                              > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                              makes sense
                              > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                              conversation was
                              > > about.
                              > >
                              > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                              Committee is not
                              > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                              > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                              member of
                              > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                              Even in the
                              > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                              appoint
                              > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                              in the
                              > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                              antipathy
                              > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                              Contract
                              > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                              choosing the
                              > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                              to be an
                              > > absurd position.
                              > >
                              > > Charley Cowens
                              > >
                              > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                              the event
                              > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                              > > >
                              > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                              conversation
                              > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                              that Mr.
                              > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                              > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                              > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                              spent time
                              > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                              > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                              costs and the
                              > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                              last year
                              > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                              many of us can
                              > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                              many of us
                              > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                              couple of
                              > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                              > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                              the school
                              > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                              > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                              Advisory
                              > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                              committee was
                              > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                              numbers,
                              > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                              numbers and
                              > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                              their side of
                              > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                              > > > Tammy Campbell
                              > > >
                              > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                              > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                              > > > teacher
                              > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                              > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                              to kill
                              > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                              letter
                              > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                              school board
                              > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                              intimidate me."
                              > > >
                              > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                              Did the
                              > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                              > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                              not the
                              > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                              > > >
                              > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                              > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                              > > > What kind of message does that send?
                              > > >
                              > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                              > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                              over an
                              > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                              would hope
                              > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                              > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                              > > >
                              > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                              no way
                              > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                              > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                            • rcs101@att.net
                              --Ralph: I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --Ralph:

                                I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.



                                Scottie Smith




                                -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                >
                                > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                >
                                > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                >
                                > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                >
                                > Ralph
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                > >
                                > > Scottie Smith
                                >
                                > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@...>
                                > > >
                                > > > Tammy,
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                > original
                                > > > incident?
                                > > >
                                > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                > teacher and
                                > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                > public place at
                                > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                > a total
                                > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                > what he is
                                > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                > citizen) who
                                > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                                > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                > stop the
                                > > > incident.
                                > > >
                                > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                > whether or not
                                > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                > makes sense
                                > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                > conversation was
                                > > > about.
                                > > >
                                > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                > Committee is not
                                > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                                > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                > member of
                                > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                > Even in the
                                > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                > appoint
                                > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                > in the
                                > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                > antipathy
                                > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                > Contract
                                > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                > choosing the
                                > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                > to be an
                                > > > absurd position.
                                > > >
                                > > > Charley Cowens
                                > > >
                                > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                > the event
                                > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                > conversation
                                > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                > that Mr.
                                > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                                > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                > spent time
                                > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                > costs and the
                                > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                > last year
                                > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                > many of us can
                                > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                > many of us
                                > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                > couple of
                                > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                                > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                > the school
                                > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                > Advisory
                                > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                > committee was
                                > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                > numbers,
                                > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                > numbers and
                                > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                > their side of
                                > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                > > > >
                                > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                                > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                                > > > > teacher
                                > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                                > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                > to kill
                                > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                > letter
                                > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                > school board
                                > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                > intimidate me."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                > Did the
                                > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                                > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                > not the
                                > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                                > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                                > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                                > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                > over an
                                > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                > would hope
                                > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                                > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                > no way
                                > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                                > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Tammera Campbell
                                Charley, It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May,
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Charley,
                                  It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it occurred in May, then?

                                  Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than understanding the problem.

                                  Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view. Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct conflict with what the unions may want.
                                  Tammy Campbell


                                  Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                                  Tammy,

                                  Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the original
                                  incident?

                                  Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art teacher and
                                  citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public place at
                                  El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a total
                                  stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                  proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what he is
                                  saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and citizen) who
                                  had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                                  Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to stop the
                                  incident.

                                  It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether or not
                                  a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall) makes sense
                                  in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the conversation was
                                  about.

                                  Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee is not
                                  to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                                  originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be member of
                                  the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even in the
                                  compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally appoint
                                  members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members in the
                                  appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the antipathy
                                  of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                                  requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in choosing the
                                  teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it to be an
                                  absurd position.

                                  Charley Cowens

                                  On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of the event
                                  > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                  >
                                  > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the conversation
                                  > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                                  > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                                  > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                  > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really spent time
                                  > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                  > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs and the
                                  > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the last year
                                  > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many of us can
                                  > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How many of us
                                  > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                                  > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                                  > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the school
                                  > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                  > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                                  > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the committee was
                                  > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze numbers,
                                  > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the numbers and
                                  > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with their side of
                                  > the story? Local One has been there.
                                  > Tammy Campbell
                                  >
                                  > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                                  > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                                  > teacher
                                  > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                                  > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                                  > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                                  > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school board
                                  > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to intimidate me."
                                  >
                                  > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                                  > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                                  > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                                  > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                  >
                                  > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                                  > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                                  > What kind of message does that send?
                                  >
                                  > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                                  > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired over an
                                  > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would hope
                                  > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                                  > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                  >
                                  > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                                  > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                                  > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
                                  > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                                  Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • petr_loubal
                                  As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate speech, unlike
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                    As the one who launched this chain of comments, I want to say that it
                                    seems to have moved from a discussion of to what extent intemperate
                                    speech, unlike intemperate action, should be censored (with opinions
                                    split more or less equally). The more recent comments question the
                                    timing and deal with the root cause and motives.

                                    This evolution could be seen as a good example of "collective wisdom"
                                    at work in our local internet setting. (See, for instance,
                                    http://wikinomics.com/ for a more thorough examination of this
                                    phenomenon in the world-at-large).

                                    Let's hope this is noticed. Maybe it is time to hear from the
                                    participants in the initial confrontation.

                                    Turn the issue into a learning experience, and get on with more
                                    substantial concerns.

                                    Peter
                                    ------------------------------------
                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Tammera Campbell
                                    <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Charley,
                                    > It was my understanding that the incident occurred in May and we
                                    are now in July. If I am incorrect, then I apologize. But if it
                                    occurred in May, then?
                                    >
                                    > Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong.
                                    What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident
                                    rather than the root cause behind the incident. It's analogous to
                                    fixing the sympton rather than finding the cure. If we were to focus
                                    on understanding the root cause for so much conflict and emotion and
                                    work on better communication of the issues, then we might not have
                                    these incidences in the first place. Herein lies the problem on so
                                    many facets of the district. We focus on the controversy rather than
                                    understanding the problem.
                                    >
                                    > Though I agree with you that the Budget Advisory Committee has the
                                    mission of trying to understand and make the school district budget
                                    transparent to the public, a direct result of these meetings has been
                                    stakeholders sharing and understanding the issues on all sides. I
                                    also agree that the original make up of the committee was envisioned
                                    to be made up of others outside the district, but it became apparent
                                    that if we were to actually get anywhere and really understand the
                                    budget, all stakeholders needed to be present to give their view.
                                    Hence the inclusion of all unions. Though I understand that union
                                    issues are covered under collective bargaining it does not mean that
                                    we avoid discussing the difficult issues such as small schools and
                                    health benefits because in some senses these issues are in direct
                                    conflict with what the unions may want.
                                    > Tammy Campbell
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Charley Cowens <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                                    > Tammy,
                                    >
                                    > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                    original
                                    > incident?
                                    >
                                    > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                    teacher and
                                    > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a public
                                    place at
                                    > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and a
                                    total
                                    > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                    > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about what
                                    he is
                                    > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                    citizen) who
                                    > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an incident.
                                    > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                    stop the
                                    > incident.
                                    >
                                    > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad, whether
                                    or not
                                    > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                    makes sense
                                    > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                    conversation was
                                    > about.
                                    >
                                    > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory Committee
                                    is not
                                    > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In fact,
                                    > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                    member of
                                    > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee). Even
                                    in the
                                    > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                    appoint
                                    > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                    in the
                                    > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                    antipathy
                                    > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the Contract
                                    > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                    choosing the
                                    > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                    to be an
                                    > absurd position.
                                    >
                                    > Charley Cowens
                                    >
                                    > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                    the event
                                    > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                    > >
                                    > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                    conversation
                                    > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it that Mr.
                                    > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it be that
                                    > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                    > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                    spent time
                                    > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                    > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care costs
                                    and the
                                    > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                    last year
                                    > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How many
                                    of us can
                                    > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                    many of us
                                    > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last couple of
                                    > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory Comittee
                                    > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow the
                                    school
                                    > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                    > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget Advisory
                                    > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                    committee was
                                    > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                    numbers,
                                    > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                    numbers and
                                    > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                    their side of
                                    > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                    > > Tammy Campbell
                                    > >
                                    > > gregorychang <gregorychang@...> wrote:
                                    > > I read the article more carefully and it does say that the
                                    > > teacher
                                    > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt say what
                                    > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going to kill
                                    > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's letter
                                    > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his school
                                    board
                                    > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                    intimidate me."
                                    > >
                                    > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was. Did the
                                    > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller? Was he
                                    > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is not the
                                    > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                    > >
                                    > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he cannot
                                    > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14 years.
                                    > > What kind of message does that send?
                                    > >
                                    > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is this a
                                    > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                    over an
                                    > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I would
                                    hope
                                    > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty confident
                                    > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                    > >
                                    > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is no way
                                    > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included in the
                                    > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ---------------------------------
                                    > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                                    > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • jim cowen
                                    Tammera Campbell wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey s behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                      Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...> wrote: Charley - I am not excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root cause behind the incident.



                                      _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict between districts and unions.
                                      This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and union/district conflicts, is it???
                                      That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work stress.

                                      When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it - what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the person committing the assault.

                                      The root cause is Ramsey.

                                      Jim



                                      ---------------------------------
                                      Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                      Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Cathy Travlos
                                      There are two issues here. First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I m sure he d agree. He s not the only one who needs to do this
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                        There are two issues here.
                                        First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and I'm
                                        sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                        have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I disagreed
                                        with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                        report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                        example for our kids.
                                        Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                        UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However, the
                                        flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                        assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known him?
                                        Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                        is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt that
                                        being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                        district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                        It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                        member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                        when there are important issues at hand.

                                        Cathy

                                        jim cowen wrote:

                                        > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                        > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                        > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                        > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                        > cause behind the incident.
                                        >
                                        > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                        > between districts and unions.
                                        > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between Ramsey
                                        > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                        > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                        > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                        > stress.
                                        >
                                        > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                        > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                        > person committing the assault.
                                        >
                                        > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                        >
                                        > Jim
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                        > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Ralph Bedwell
                                        Scottie, Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars. You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on personal whim. This is not
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                          Scottie,

                                          Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                          You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                          personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                          student.

                                          I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                          we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                          school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                          or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                          etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                          personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                          But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                          essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                          optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                          put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                          can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                          that they need and deserve.

                                          Ralph

                                          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --Ralph:
                                          >
                                          > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                          district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                          need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                          of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                          expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                          momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Scottie Smith
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                          > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                          > >
                                          > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                          > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                          > >
                                          > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                          > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                          > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                          > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                          > >
                                          > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                          > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                          > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                          > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                          > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                          > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                          > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                          > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                          > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                          > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                          > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                          > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                          > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                          > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                          > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                          > >
                                          > > Ralph
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                          > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                          > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                          > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                          > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                          > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                          > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                          > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                          > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                          > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                          > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                          > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                          > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                          > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                          > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Scottie Smith
                                          > >
                                          > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                          > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Tammy,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                          > > original
                                          > > > > incident?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                          > > teacher and
                                          > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                          > > public place at
                                          > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                          > > a total
                                          > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                          > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                          > > what he is
                                          > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                          > > citizen) who
                                          > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                          incident.
                                          > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                          > > stop the
                                          > > > > incident.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                          > > whether or not
                                          > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                          > > makes sense
                                          > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                          > > conversation was
                                          > > > > about.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                          > > Committee is not
                                          > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                          fact,
                                          > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                          > > member of
                                          > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                          > > Even in the
                                          > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                          > > appoint
                                          > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                          > > in the
                                          > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                          > > antipathy
                                          > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                          > > Contract
                                          > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                          > > choosing the
                                          > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                          > > to be an
                                          > > > > absurd position.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Charley Cowens
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                          > > the event
                                          > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                          > > conversation
                                          > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                          > > that Mr.
                                          > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                          be that
                                          > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                          > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                          > > spent time
                                          > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                          > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                          > > costs and the
                                          > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                          > > last year
                                          > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                          > > many of us can
                                          > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                          > > many of us
                                          > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                          > > couple of
                                          > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                          Comittee
                                          > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                          > > the school
                                          > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                          > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                          > > Advisory
                                          > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                          > > committee was
                                          > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                          > > numbers,
                                          > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                          > > numbers and
                                          > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                          > > their side of
                                          > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                          > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                          that the
                                          > > > > > teacher
                                          > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                          say what
                                          > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                          > > to kill
                                          > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                          > > letter
                                          > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                          > > school board
                                          > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                          > > intimidate me."
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                          > > Did the
                                          > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                          Was he
                                          > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                          > > not the
                                          > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                          cannot
                                          > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                          years.
                                          > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                          this a
                                          > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                          > > over an
                                          > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                          > > would hope
                                          > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                          confident
                                          > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                          > > no way
                                          > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                          in the
                                          > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                          > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                          Travel.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Mike Wasilchin
                                          Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night. At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Just as a side note, the District approved to expel 32 students last night.



                                            At the District Safety Committee last year, we received data on referrals,
                                            suspensions and expulsions. The data is not real accurate as the manner in
                                            which the information is recorded varies from site to site and the
                                            application of District/Site policies is not administered equitably.
                                            Additionally, according to District data, students with discipline problems
                                            are no longer just transferred from one school to the next. For the most
                                            part, there are several types of programs that are being utilized to curb
                                            student behavior at a particular site prior to suspending and expelling the
                                            students. Some examples: CCC Probation department gets referrals from both
                                            the D.A. (via court decisions) and principals (they identify students at
                                            risk to intervene before they get in the system; there are a few mentor
                                            programs that are being utilized that have several levels to be able to
                                            offer support to repeat offenders; there are summits that students at risk
                                            are able to attend and then become proactive agents of change at their
                                            respective sites; peer counseling and conflict mediation is growing at both
                                            the elementary and secondary levels and appears to be having an impact; and
                                            the District is in the process of implementing character development at the
                                            middle schools, which is already in place in several elementary and proving
                                            to be quite successful; and there are also several community services that
                                            are available to youth that meet certain criteria (foster care, Spanish
                                            speaking, gang affiliations, etc.)



                                            While the data from the District is not completely accurate, it is a
                                            starting point. My position is that if you if you do not have accurate and
                                            complete data, one does not know how successful or unsuccessful a program or
                                            plan is. I have urged the District to ensure the data that is captured is
                                            as accurate as possible and that the data be shared with the public in
                                            several different arenas (Board of Education, District Safety Committee,
                                            School Site Councils, etc.) The ultimate goal is to make the schools safer
                                            through the implementation and ongoing modification of several different
                                            programs and mechanisms such that students know the rules and acceptable
                                            behaviors in the District and recognize the disciplines that will be
                                            administered when rules are broken. This is something that has not been
                                            consistently happening in this District for several years.



                                            This is just interpretation by attending all of the District Safety
                                            Committee Meetings for 2006/07 and following the safety issues on the Board
                                            of Education agendas.



                                            Michael Wasilchin

                                            Business Agent

                                            Public Employees Union, Local One

                                            4197 Lakeside Dr., Suite # 170

                                            Richmond, CA 94806

                                            Telephone # - (510) 222 - 5012

                                            Fax # - (510) 222 - 8858



                                            _____

                                            From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of Ralph Bedwell
                                            Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:20 PM
                                            To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Charles Ramsey's (loud) free speech



                                            Scottie,

                                            Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.

                                            You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                            personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                            student.

                                            I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                            we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                            school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                            or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                            etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                            personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                            But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                            essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                            optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                            put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                            can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                            that they need and deserve.

                                            Ralph

                                            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
                                            rcs101@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --Ralph:
                                            >
                                            > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                            district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                            need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                            of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                            expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                            momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Scottie Smith
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                            > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                            > >
                                            > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                            > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                            > >
                                            > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                            > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                            > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                            > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                            > >
                                            > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                            > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                            > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                            > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                            > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                            > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                            > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                            > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                            > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                            > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                            > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                            > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                            > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                            > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                            > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                            > >
                                            > > Ralph
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            ups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                            > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                            > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                            > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                            > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                            > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                            > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                            > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                            > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                            > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                            > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                            > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                            > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                            > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                            > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Scottie Smith
                                            > >
                                            > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                            > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Tammy,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                            > > original
                                            > > > > incident?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                            > > teacher and
                                            > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                            > > public place at
                                            > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                            > > a total
                                            > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                            > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                            > > what he is
                                            > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                            > > citizen) who
                                            > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                            incident.
                                            > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                            > > stop the
                                            > > > > incident.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                            > > whether or not
                                            > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                            > > makes sense
                                            > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                            > > conversation was
                                            > > > > about.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                            > > Committee is not
                                            > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                            fact,
                                            > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                            > > member of
                                            > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                            > > Even in the
                                            > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                            > > appoint
                                            > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                            > > in the
                                            > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                            > > antipathy
                                            > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                            > > Contract
                                            > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                            > > choosing the
                                            > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                            > > to be an
                                            > > > > absurd position.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Charley Cowens
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                            > > the event
                                            > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                            > > conversation
                                            > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                            > > that Mr.
                                            > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                            be that
                                            > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                            > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                            > > spent time
                                            > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                            > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                            > > costs and the
                                            > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                            > > last year
                                            > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                            > > many of us can
                                            > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                            > > many of us
                                            > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                            > > couple of
                                            > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                            Comittee
                                            > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                            > > the school
                                            > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                            > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                            > > Advisory
                                            > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                            > > committee was
                                            > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                            > > numbers,
                                            > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                            > > numbers and
                                            > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                            > > their side of
                                            > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                            > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                            > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                            that the
                                            > > > > > teacher
                                            > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                            say what
                                            > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                            > > to kill
                                            > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                            > > letter
                                            > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                            > > school board
                                            > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                            > > intimidate me."
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                            > > Did the
                                            > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                            Was he
                                            > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                            > > not the
                                            > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                            cannot
                                            > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                            years.
                                            > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                            this a
                                            > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                            > > over an
                                            > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                            > > would hope
                                            > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                            confident
                                            > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                            > > no way
                                            > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                            in the
                                            > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                            > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                            Travel.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • rcs101@att.net
                                            --Ralph: I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --Ralph:

                                              I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide information to teachers and principals about all resources that are available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology, speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed, or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like teachers are in the same boat.

                                              It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems; and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders. Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to another, without using the available services that are to help students and teachers.

                                              There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful, therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning environment or the society.

                                              So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in the Fall?

                                              Scottie Smith




                                              -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                              >
                                              > Scottie,
                                              >
                                              > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                              >
                                              > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                              > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                              > student.
                                              >
                                              > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                              > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                              > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                              > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                              > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                              > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                              > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                              > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                              > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                              > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                              > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                              > that they need and deserve.
                                              >
                                              > Ralph
                                              >
                                              > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --Ralph:
                                              > >
                                              > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                              > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                              > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                              > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                              > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                              > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their behavior.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Scottie Smith
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                              > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's behavior
                                              > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or normal
                                              > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example for young
                                              > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a long
                                              > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical safety of
                                              > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting, other
                                              > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                              > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.). Personally,
                                              > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                              > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It sounds just
                                              > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second chances" in
                                              > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some point it is
                                              > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their parents,
                                              > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem student
                                              > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                              > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                              > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student is just
                                              > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Ralph
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident fairly
                                              > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another board
                                              > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the incident.
                                              > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned about adult
                                              > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                              > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our behavior. I am
                                              > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                              > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                              > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many students are
                                              > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to help the
                                              > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the increase
                                              > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year, therefore,
                                              > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the type of
                                              > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not had the
                                              > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Scottie Smith
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Tammy,
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story versus the
                                              > > > original
                                              > > > > > incident?
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                              > > > teacher and
                                              > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                              > > > public place at
                                              > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government official and
                                              > > > a total
                                              > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an at least
                                              > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                              > > > what he is
                                              > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                              > > > citizen) who
                                              > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                              > incident.
                                              > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually intervene to
                                              > > > stop the
                                              > > > > > incident.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                              > > > whether or not
                                              > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or recall)
                                              > > > makes sense
                                              > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                              > > > conversation was
                                              > > > > > about.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                              > > > Committee is not
                                              > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                              > fact,
                                              > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be allowed to be
                                              > > > member of
                                              > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                              > > > Even in the
                                              > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not formally
                                              > > > appoint
                                              > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest members
                                              > > > in the
                                              > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part of the
                                              > > > antipathy
                                              > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                              > > > Contract
                                              > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                              > > > choosing the
                                              > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't consider it
                                              > > > to be an
                                              > > > > > absurd position.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the time of
                                              > > > the event
                                              > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                              > > > conversation
                                              > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why is it
                                              > > > that Mr.
                                              > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                              > be that
                                              > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels regarding the
                                              > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have really
                                              > > > spent time
                                              > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD budget, the
                                              > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                              > > > costs and the
                                              > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that in the
                                              > > > last year
                                              > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees? How
                                              > > > many of us can
                                              > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining enrollment? How
                                              > > > many of us
                                              > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                              > > > couple of
                                              > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                              > Comittee
                                              > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us follow
                                              > > > the school
                                              > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                              > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the Budget
                                              > > > Advisory
                                              > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point of the
                                              > > > committee was
                                              > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to analyze
                                              > > > numbers,
                                              > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to understand the
                                              > > > numbers and
                                              > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help us with
                                              > > > their side of
                                              > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                              > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                              > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                              > that the
                                              > > > > > > teacher
                                              > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                              > say what
                                              > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was going
                                              > > > to kill
                                              > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the teacher's
                                              > > > letter
                                              > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                              > > > school board
                                              > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                              > > > intimidate me."
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat was.
                                              > > > Did the
                                              > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                              > Was he
                                              > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him? That is
                                              > > > not the
                                              > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                              > cannot
                                              > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                              > years.
                                              > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                              > this a
                                              > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a teacher fired
                                              > > > over an
                                              > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                              > > > would hope
                                              > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                              > confident
                                              > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher, that is
                                              > > > no way
                                              > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                              > in the
                                              > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                              > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                              > Travel.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Diamel@aol.com
                                              Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be willing to help you. Diane Brown ************************************** Get a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                                Scottie it looks like the District Safety Committee has some data. I would be
                                                willing to help you.

                                                Diane Brown



                                                ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
                                                http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • rebecca494
                                                I think Cathy s posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going around yelling at
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                                  I think Cathy's posting illustrates why this issue concerning Board
                                                  Member Ramsey is so important: role modeling. If the adults are going
                                                  around yelling at each other; shouting obscenities and generally
                                                  acting like jerks how can we expect the youth to behave differently?

                                                  I don't think saying we should just get on with more important issues
                                                  will curb the problem until we deal with the issue of modeling and the
                                                  role that all of us adults are playing in the deterioration of the
                                                  behavior of our youth. They model after the adults in their life.

                                                  Since I know of many incidents of Mr. Ramsey losing his temper in
                                                  public during the last 14 years I do not think he is a good role model
                                                  for our youth and I would say that he is not successfully working on
                                                  controlling his temper. Maybe the Board should require an anger
                                                  management course for him to avoid a censure.

                                                  What could the high school students have thought who witnessed that
                                                  incident? What do our youth think when they see their adults modeling
                                                  poor behavior?

                                                  Of course the educational business of the district has to be conducted
                                                  no matter what, but I do think the Board has to set some limits on
                                                  continuous angry outbursts.

                                                  Rebecca Hazlewood






                                                  --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Cathy Travlos <cbt@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > There are two issues here.
                                                  > First, does Ramsey need to learn to control his temper? You bet, and
                                                  I'm
                                                  > sure he'd agree. He's not the only one who needs to do this because I
                                                  > have been pushed and yelled at after a board meeting because I
                                                  disagreed
                                                  > with someone (although it didn't occur to me to file a police
                                                  > report.....). We all need to start acting like adults and set a better
                                                  > example for our kids.
                                                  > Second, people need to be careful about spreading misinformation. The
                                                  > UTR negotiations are heated and tempers are on short fuses. However,
                                                  the
                                                  > flyers I've seen from UTR have statements that are totally incorrect. I
                                                  > assume this is what made Ramsey angry. Should Mr. Temple have known
                                                  him?
                                                  > Considering how long Temple's been in the district and how often Ramsey
                                                  > is on the ECHS campus, I would think so. However, I very much doubt
                                                  that
                                                  > being forced to introduce himself to someone who's been teaching in the
                                                  > district for over 30 years is what set Ramsey off.
                                                  > It's unfortunate that this incident between a teacher and a board
                                                  > member, both known to have short fuses, has become such a distraction
                                                  > when there are important issues at hand.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cathy
                                                  >
                                                  > jim cowen wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@...
                                                  > > <mailto:tammeracampbell%40yahoo.com>> wrote: Charley - I am not
                                                  > > excusing Mr. Ramsey's behavior, he was wrong. What I do not want to
                                                  > > happen is that we always focus on the incident rather than the root
                                                  > > cause behind the incident.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > _,___ The discussion continued from above about budgets and conflict
                                                  > > between districts and unions.
                                                  > > This is not to suggest that the "cause" of the conflict between
                                                  Ramsey
                                                  > > and the teacher/parent/volunteer/principal was the budgets and
                                                  > > union/district conflicts, is it???
                                                  > > That would be similar to blaming wife battering on the husband's work
                                                  > > stress.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > When someone commits an assault (ok, Ramsey supporters will call it -
                                                  > > what, a mildly heated discussion?), the cause, and fault, is with the
                                                  > > person committing the assault.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The root cause is Ramsey.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Jim
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                                  > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                                  > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • rebecca494
                                                  Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this district since I
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                                    Following on my previous posting re: modeling behavior I would like to
                                                    say this that Scottie Smith has been a fantastic role model in this
                                                    district since I first met her in 1991, during bankruptcy meetings.
                                                    Now of course each of us is unique and has our own way, but I must
                                                    hand it to her for her aplomb, tenacity and dedication, and being a
                                                    very positive role model for our youth.

                                                    Rebecca





                                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --Ralph:
                                                    >
                                                    > I have not had the opportunity to review the data as of yet, but
                                                    plan to do so in the Fall. Also, it is not my contention that a
                                                    teacher can provide all the necessary interventions that some of our
                                                    students need, therefore, the District has an obligation to provide
                                                    information to teachers and principals about all resources that are
                                                    available to support the teachers and students, i.e. special education
                                                    psychologists, Occupational therapist, Assistitive Technology,
                                                    speech/lang. therapist, county mental health, behaviorist, drug
                                                    intervention, early childhood intervention programs, and the list goes
                                                    on. The law requires that before a child is suspended or expelled that
                                                    all other means of corrective action has been taken. In many cases
                                                    intervention has not happen, either because the parent are not aware
                                                    of their rights, teachers do not know how to get the support needed,
                                                    or when they request help, it is not given, and principals like
                                                    teachers are in the same boat.
                                                    >
                                                    > It is so important that the SSCs included in their plan, how they
                                                    will deal with students with learning disabilities, behavior problems;
                                                    and include a list of all resources available, and guidelines for
                                                    intervention. It is my believe that so many students suffer needlessly
                                                    and for long periods of time, because the procedures that are in place
                                                    to help correct the problems are not known by all stakeholders.
                                                    Therefore, the district ends up sending students from one school to
                                                    another, without using the available services that are to help
                                                    students and teachers.
                                                    >
                                                    > There are behaviors and learning styles that the regular school can
                                                    not handle, therefore, the need to provide the options/information
                                                    about NPS (non public schools), residential schools, day treatment
                                                    schools, etc., should be part of the in-service program of the
                                                    district. It is my believe that all students want to be successful,
                                                    therefore, they need the guidance of parents/professionals to help
                                                    them. When there are resources available and the parent, teacher and
                                                    student are not aware of them, this does not help the learning
                                                    environment or the society.
                                                    >
                                                    > So, Ralph would you be willing to join me in reviewing the data in
                                                    the Fall?
                                                    >
                                                    > Scottie Smith
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                                    > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@...>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Scottie,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Have you analyzed the data? Please post particulars.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > You make it sound like administrators can expel students based on
                                                    > > personal whim. This is not the case. It is very difficult to expel a
                                                    > > student.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I agree that in a perfect world -- or, really, just in the world that
                                                    > > we should have -- if a kid was having such trouble functioning in the
                                                    > > school environment that he was posing a threat to himself or others,
                                                    > > or if he was such a chronic disrupter that other kids couldn't learn,
                                                    > > etc. -- then he should get as immediate, powerful, and long-lasting
                                                    > > personal intervention as it takes to get him on track and successful.
                                                    > > But in a world where typically one adult is charged with the
                                                    > > essentially impossible task of ensuring that 32 kids learn at their
                                                    > > optimal level, it's just not going to happen. We can't even afford to
                                                    > > put a teacher's aide into a typical classroom, so there's no way we
                                                    > > can afford the adult manpower to give kids like this the intervention
                                                    > > that they need and deserve.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Ralph
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --Ralph:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I would have to disagree with you about most expulsion, when a
                                                    > > district is expelling K-4 graders, I think there are other issues that
                                                    > > need to be address. But the only way one can really get to the bottom
                                                    > > of the problem is by analyzing the data on student suspensions and
                                                    > > expulsion. You may find as with Charles that their conflicts was a
                                                    > > momentary lack of judgment, or other issues that impacted their
                                                    behavior.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Scottie Smith
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                                    > > > From: "Ralph Bedwell" <bedwellr@>
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Is there other adult behavior at issue here for which excuses are
                                                    > > > > being made other than Mr. Ramsey's?
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > While I do strongly feel that a school district official's
                                                    behavior
                                                    > > > > needs to be exemplary and impeccable (within the limits of or
                                                    normal
                                                    > > > > human fallibility) in order to set the best possible example
                                                    for young
                                                    > > > > people, I think these are two separate issues.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Most student expulsions are for serious misbehavior, usually a
                                                    long
                                                    > > > > pattern of misbehavior, that threatens either the physical
                                                    safety of
                                                    > > > > other students or school personnel (drugs, weapons, fighting,
                                                    other
                                                    > > > > forms of reckless behavior) and/or robs other students of their
                                                    > > > > educational opportunity (chronic class disruption, etc.).
                                                    Personally,
                                                    > > > > based on my experience, I think we give way too many chances and
                                                    > > > > tolerate way too much in our schools, not the opposite. It
                                                    sounds just
                                                    > > > > from an idealistic point of view to give endless "second
                                                    chances" in
                                                    > > > > order for kids to "learn from their mistakes", but at some
                                                    point it is
                                                    > > > > just unfair to everyone else involved (other students, their
                                                    parents,
                                                    > > > > teachers, administrators, etc.) to continue allowing a problem
                                                    student
                                                    > > > > to contribute to an unsafe, anti-academic atmosphere. So, finally,
                                                    > > > > that student gets expelled. (However, in our district that seldom
                                                    > > > > means a lot anyway; in the vast majority of cases the student
                                                    is just
                                                    > > > > moved from one school to another to be given a fresh start.)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Ralph
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, rcs101@ wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > --Correct me if I am wrong, I was called about this incident
                                                    fairly
                                                    > > > > recently and before it hit the paper. I was told that another
                                                    board
                                                    > > > > member M. Kronberg was also called to the school to stop the
                                                    incident.
                                                    > > > > Has anyone heard about her present? I am always concerned
                                                    about adult
                                                    > > > > behavior when we suspense and expel students on a daily basis for
                                                    > > > > conflict and yet we as adults, provide excuses for our
                                                    behavior. I am
                                                    > > > > constantly trying to obtain counseling and conflict mediation for
                                                    > > > > students in order for them to stay in school and learn from their
                                                    > > > > mistakes. I believe the District need to look at how many
                                                    students are
                                                    > > > > expelled and what has been done, or could have been done to
                                                    help the
                                                    > > > > students before expelling them. The Times did a story on the
                                                    increase
                                                    > > > > in student expulsion in this district over the last year,
                                                    therefore,
                                                    > > > > the rules adults play by should have a direct impact on the
                                                    type of
                                                    > > > > rules imposed on students, yet many of the students have not
                                                    had the
                                                    > > > > opportunity with support, for a 2 or 3rd chance.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Scottie Smith
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                                    > > > > > From: "Charley Cowens" <charley.cowens@>
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Tammy,
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Well, why do you think there was a delay in the story
                                                    versus the
                                                    > > > > original
                                                    > > > > > > incident?
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Let's focus on what happened here. Mr. Temple, opinionated art
                                                    > > > > teacher and
                                                    > > > > > > citizen, was having a conversation with another citizen in a
                                                    > > > > public place at
                                                    > > > > > > El Cerrito HS. Mr. Ramsey, an opinionated government
                                                    official and
                                                    > > > > a total
                                                    > > > > > > stranger to Mr. Temple, is present nearby and creates an
                                                    at least
                                                    > > > > > > proto-violent incident by getting into Mr. Temple's face about
                                                    > > > > what he is
                                                    > > > > > > saying. Mr. Ramsey then remonstrates with some volunteer (and
                                                    > > > > citizen) who
                                                    > > > > > > had told them all to pipe down because they were creating an
                                                    > > incident.
                                                    > > > > > > Another lesser government official has to eventually
                                                    intervene to
                                                    > > > > stop the
                                                    > > > > > > incident.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > It doesn't matter what they're talking about. It's just bad,
                                                    > > > > whether or not
                                                    > > > > > > a formal response (prosecution, litigation, censure, or
                                                    recall)
                                                    > > > > makes sense
                                                    > > > > > > in this particular situation. It doesn't matter what the
                                                    > > > > conversation was
                                                    > > > > > > about.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Finally, the purpose of the the Community Budget Advisory
                                                    > > > > Committee is not
                                                    > > > > > > to bring the steakholders (my preferred spelling) together. In
                                                    > > fact,
                                                    > > > > > > originally, employees of the District were not to be
                                                    allowed to be
                                                    > > > > member of
                                                    > > > > > > the Committee at all (like with the Bond Oversight Committee).
                                                    > > > > Even in the
                                                    > > > > > > compromise that arose, collective bargaining units do not
                                                    formally
                                                    > > > > appoint
                                                    > > > > > > members to the Committee. They are simply asked to suggest
                                                    members
                                                    > > > > in the
                                                    > > > > > > appropriate category as part of membership outreach. Part
                                                    of the
                                                    > > > > antipathy
                                                    > > > > > > of the teachers' union to our Committee is their idea that the
                                                    > > > > Contract
                                                    > > > > > > requires more involvement by the teachers' union than this in
                                                    > > > > choosing the
                                                    > > > > > > teacher member. While I don't agree with this, I don't
                                                    consider it
                                                    > > > > to be an
                                                    > > > > > > absurd position.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Charley Cowens
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > On 7/9/07, Tammera Campbell <tammeracampbell@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I am curious as to why this story did not surface at the
                                                    time of
                                                    > > > > the event
                                                    > > > > > > > rather than months later. Just an observation.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I am hoping that everyone will focus on the content of the
                                                    > > > > conversation
                                                    > > > > > > > that was occurring rather than the actual incident. Why
                                                    is it
                                                    > > > > that Mr.
                                                    > > > > > > > Ramsey and the teacher were so upset and arguing? Could it
                                                    > > be that
                                                    > > > > > > > communication has not yet occurred at all levels
                                                    regarding the
                                                    > > > > > > > budget? Let's be honest, how many people out there have
                                                    really
                                                    > > > > spent time
                                                    > > > > > > > understanding public educational funding, the WCCUSD
                                                    budget, the
                                                    > > > > > > > ramifications of declining enrollment, increased health care
                                                    > > > > costs and the
                                                    > > > > > > > impact of small schools? How many of us understand that
                                                    in the
                                                    > > > > last year
                                                    > > > > > > > Kaiser increased their premiums by 33% for our retirees?
                                                    How
                                                    > > > > many of us can
                                                    > > > > > > > quote the amount of money lost due to declining
                                                    enrollment? How
                                                    > > > > many of us
                                                    > > > > > > > can tell you where the parcel tax money has gone these last
                                                    > > > > couple of
                                                    > > > > > > > years? How many teachers attend the WCCUSD Budget Advisory
                                                    > > Comittee
                                                    > > > > > > > meetings except one (Eduardo Martinez)? How many of us
                                                    follow
                                                    > > > > the school
                                                    > > > > > > > board meetings and bother to understand the budget
                                                    > > > > > > > presentations? Why is it that UTR has not come to the
                                                    Budget
                                                    > > > > Advisory
                                                    > > > > > > > meetings to dispute and debate the numbers? The point
                                                    of the
                                                    > > > > committee was
                                                    > > > > > > > to bring stakeholders in from across this district, to
                                                    analyze
                                                    > > > > numbers,
                                                    > > > > > > > questions the numbers, and help each other out to
                                                    understand the
                                                    > > > > numbers and
                                                    > > > > > > > the bigger picture. Where is UTR's leadership to help
                                                    us with
                                                    > > > > their side of
                                                    > > > > > > > the story? Local One has been there.
                                                    > > > > > > > Tammy Campbell
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > gregorychang <gregorychang@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > > I read the article more carefully and it does say
                                                    > > that the
                                                    > > > > > > > teacher
                                                    > > > > > > > alleges that Charles Ramsey threatened him. But it doesnt
                                                    > > say what
                                                    > > > > > > > shape or form the threat took. Did Mr. Ramsey say he was
                                                    going
                                                    > > > > to kill
                                                    > > > > > > > the teacher or beat the teacher up? According to the
                                                    teacher's
                                                    > > > > letter
                                                    > > > > > > > cited in the article, ``I believe that he tried to use his
                                                    > > > > school board
                                                    > > > > > > > authority along with his aggressive physical demeanor to
                                                    > > > > intimidate me."
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > So it doesnt give any details on what the alleged threat
                                                    was.
                                                    > > > > Did the
                                                    > > > > > > > teacher just feel scared because he is physically smaller?
                                                    > > Was he
                                                    > > > > > > > frightened because Mr. Ramsey pointed a finger at him?
                                                    That is
                                                    > > > > not the
                                                    > > > > > > > same as a verbal threat, in my opinion.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Also, the teacher has worked for WCCUSD for 32 years yet he
                                                    > > cannot
                                                    > > > > > > > recognize Mr Ramsey, who has been on the school board for 14
                                                    > > years.
                                                    > > > > > > > What kind of message does that send?
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Finally, the teacher said he fears for his job security. Is
                                                    > > this a
                                                    > > > > > > > legitimate fear? Can a school board member have a
                                                    teacher fired
                                                    > > > > over an
                                                    > > > > > > > argument? Is there any precedent of this happening before? I
                                                    > > > > would hope
                                                    > > > > > > > our teachers have more rights than that and I feel pretty
                                                    > > confident
                                                    > > > > > > > that UTR wouldnt stand for something like that.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Mr. Ramsey was definitely wrong to yell at the teacher,
                                                    that is
                                                    > > > > no way
                                                    > > > > > > > to communicate a viewpoint. But, based on the facts included
                                                    > > in the
                                                    > > > > > > > article, the teacher has blown it out of proportion.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                                    > > > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo!
                                                    > > Travel.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
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