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Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues

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  • Charley Cowens
    Yes, I ve thought that before, but the costs of dividing may simply outweigh any benefits. Is there some connection you re trying to make to what we re talking
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 3, 2006
      Yes, I've thought that before, but the costs of dividing may simply
      outweigh any benefits. Is there some connection you're trying to make
      to what we're talking about in this thread?

      Also, who are you? You said you were an ex-school board member. Your
      email user name is "axharris". There are two such people I know of
      with Harris in their names. Are you Adrienne Harris-Pitts?

      Charley Cowens

      On 9/3/06, axharris@... <axharris@...> wrote:
      > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
      > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
      > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
      >
      >
      >
      > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
      > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
      > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
      > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
      > their services.
      >
      > Charley Cowens
      >
      > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
      > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
      > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
      > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
      > > will based on seniority?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • troubled_h2o
      This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR. That s what they get paid for.
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
        This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR.
        That's what they get paid for.
      • Elizabeth Jaeger
        Would that UTR leadership had any interest in instruction whatsoever. They were of absolutely no help during the whole Downer 5 ordeal and, in some ways, a
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
          Would that UTR leadership had any interest in instruction whatsoever.
          They were of absolutely no help during the whole Downer 5 ordeal and,
          in some ways, a hindrance since they managed to convince other
          teachers that we were being "looked after." The only grievances they
          seem equipped to handle are those related to technicalities (e.g., did
          a principal follow the contractual guidelines in conducting a teacher
          evaluation, NOT was a teacher harrassed during the course of the
          evaluation process).

          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "troubled_h2o" <axharris@...> wrote:
          >
          > This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR.
          > That's what they get paid for.
          >
        • axharris@sbcglobal.net
          As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,) $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you have
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
            As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,)
            $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you
            have properly documented the harassment, and UTR won't help you, you should
            contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up the wrong tree with the
            school board.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eduardo Martinez
            The board should exert their influence so the district doesn t waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
              The board should exert their influence so the district
              doesn't waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases
              that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
              of the school district when the administation refuses
              to act ethically? Who should guard the purse strings
              when behavior is senselessly scattering dollars at
              district lawyers when the money could be supporting
              the instruction on the children? Trying all venues
              before going to court is the best course of action,
              but it seems the district is intent on wasting yet
              thousands more dollars covering their indiscretions.
              So sad...
              Yet I feel we must bark up every tree in hopes that
              others don't continue running down the wrong path.
              IMHO everyone should be barking as loud as possible.

              Eduardo

              --- axharris@... wrote:

              > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you
              > expect the (approx,)
              > $500 a month elected representatives of the public
              > to do about it? If you
              > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR
              > won't help you, you should
              > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up
              > the wrong tree with the
              > school board.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • axharris@sbcglobal.net
              Americans have a right to due process. Moreover, the individual school board members do not exert as much personal influence over personnel matters as you seem
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                Americans have a right to due process. Moreover, the individual school board
                members do not exert as much personal influence over personnel matters as
                you seem to think. Lastly, the school board is essentially powerless to
                mediate personality conflicts. They can't even get along with each other,
                and anyway, none of them cares much about the schools in Richmond, where I
                happen to reside.

                Harrassment is a serious issue. If it can be proven, it should be pressed.

                Cordially,
                Adrienne




                _____

                From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Eduardo Martinez
                Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:53 PM
                To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues



                The board should exert their influence so the district
                doesn't waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases
                that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
                of the school district when the administation refuses
                to act ethically? Who should guard the purse strings
                when behavior is senselessly scattering dollars at
                district lawyers when the money could be supporting
                the instruction on the children? Trying all venues
                before going to court is the best course of action,
                but it seems the district is intent on wasting yet
                thousands more dollars covering their indiscretions.
                So sad...
                Yet I feel we must bark up every tree in hopes that
                others don't continue running down the wrong path.
                IMHO everyone should be barking as loud as possible.

                Eduardo

                --- axharris@sbcglobal. <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net wrote:

                > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you
                > expect the (approx,)
                > $500 a month elected representatives of the public
                > to do about it? If you
                > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR
                > won't help you, you should
                > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up
                > the wrong tree with the
                > school board.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >

                __________________________________________________
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                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Charley Cowens
                Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam requirement) and the purely
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                  Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                  authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam
                  requirement) and the purely budgetary veto power of Dr. Fred. The
                  grievance procedure should deal with the bulk of personal type cases
                  (like getting shorted in your paycheck), but there are three possible
                  situations where the grievance procedure approach breaks down: (1)
                  where administrative retaliation is applied to suppress opinions about
                  school policy, (2) where there is a wide pattern to a particular kind
                  of grievance, and (3) where the sheer volume of grievances is
                  excessive. An example of (1) is writing up a teacher for what they
                  said as a member of a site council. As for (3), I'd be curious to know
                  if anyone has any statistics about the grievance rate in this district
                  over time and compared to other districts.

                  Charley Cowens

                  On 9/4/06, axharris@... <axharris@...> wrote:
                  > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,)
                  > $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you
                  > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR won't help you, you should
                  > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up the wrong tree with the
                  > school board.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • axharris@sbcglobal.net
                  What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant to the union contracts. Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR conflict with the educational
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                    What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant to the union contracts.
                    Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR conflict with the
                    educational function of its cadre of state-certified professional teachers?
                    If so, this is an issue the public needs to embrace


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Eduardo Martinez
                    Would you please include the quote to which you refer? I have no idea what you consider fanciful, but the district acts pursuant to their wims. That is why
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                      Would you please include the quote to which you refer?
                      I have no idea what you consider fanciful, but the
                      district acts pursuant to their wims. That is why
                      there are so many grievances. It is the industrial
                      employment model imposed by the district that is the
                      problem and their attempts to force scripted
                      curriculum greatly adversely impacts the educational
                      function of state-certified professional teachers.
                      And yes, I do believe this is an issue the public
                      needs to embrace.

                      Eduardo

                      --- axharris@... wrote:

                      > What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant
                      > to the union contracts.
                      > Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR
                      > conflict with the
                      > educational function of its cadre of state-certified
                      > professional teachers?
                      > If so, this is an issue the public needs to embrace
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >


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                    • troubled_h2o
                      Eduardo: Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District. That is the quote which I described as fanciful.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                        Eduardo:
                        "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                        authority over the District."
                        That is the quote which I described as "fanciful."
                      • Charley Cowens
                        Adrienne, The full sentence was Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                          Adrienne,

                          The full sentence was "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the
                          ultimate controlling
                          authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam
                          requirement) and the purely budgetary veto power of Dr. Fred." I
                          should have thrown in contracts it has entered into, but that seemed
                          sort of obvious.

                          The collective bargaining agreement for teachers is between the School
                          Board and the UTR, not among the School Board, the staff, and the
                          UTR. I don't see how directing staff to abstain from the sort of
                          actions involved in the Downer 5 incidents or to remedy them could be
                          a violation of the collective bargaining agreement between teachers
                          and the School Board.

                          Charley Cowens

                          On 9/4/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                          > Eduardo:
                          > "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                          > authority over the District."
                          > That is the quote which I described as "fanciful."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • troubled_h2o
                          Charley- The school board doesn t direct the staff. The school board directs the superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that s why his job
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                            Charley-
                            The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board directs the
                            superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's why
                            his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is displeased
                            with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him at any
                            time with 3 votes.

                            Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                            Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                            curriculum always interests me.

                            Adrienne
                          • Charley Cowens
                            Adrienne- Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board: 35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any powers delegated
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                              Adrienne-

                              Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board:

                              35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any
                              powers delegated by law to it or to the district of which it is the
                              governing board, and shall discharge any duty imposed by law upon it
                              or upon the district of which it is the governing board, and may
                              delegate to an officer or employee of the district any of those
                              powers or duties. The governing board, however, retains ultimate
                              responsibility over the performance of those powers or duties so
                              delegated.

                              This seem rather broad to me. My main point about what I dimly
                              remember to be the beginning of this thread was that the Board _can_
                              intervene as much as it wants in matters like the Downer 5. Whether it
                              _should_ is the real question.

                              The starting bone of contention at Downer was mostly about the reading
                              (oh, I mean literacy) program.

                              Charley Cowens


                              On 9/5/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                              > Charley-
                              > The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board directs the
                              > superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's why
                              > his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is displeased
                              > with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him at any
                              > time with 3 votes.
                              >
                              > Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                              > Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                              > curriculum always interests me.
                              >
                              > Adrienne
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Elizabeth Jaeger
                              Yes, the reading program but also the toxic environment created by a series of administrators. ... it ... _can_ ... Whether it ... reading ... directs the ...
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                                Yes, the reading program but also the toxic environment created by a
                                series of administrators.

                                --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Charley Cowens"
                                <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Adrienne-
                                >
                                > Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board:
                                >
                                > 35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any
                                > powers delegated by law to it or to the district of which it is the
                                > governing board, and shall discharge any duty imposed by law upon
                                it
                                > or upon the district of which it is the governing board, and may
                                > delegate to an officer or employee of the district any of those
                                > powers or duties. The governing board, however, retains ultimate
                                > responsibility over the performance of those powers or duties so
                                > delegated.
                                >
                                > This seem rather broad to me. My main point about what I dimly
                                > remember to be the beginning of this thread was that the Board
                                _can_
                                > intervene as much as it wants in matters like the Downer 5.
                                Whether it
                                > _should_ is the real question.
                                >
                                > The starting bone of contention at Downer was mostly about the
                                reading
                                > (oh, I mean literacy) program.
                                >
                                > Charley Cowens
                                >
                                >
                                > On 9/5/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                                > > Charley-
                                > > The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board
                                directs the
                                > > superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's
                                why
                                > > his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is
                                displeased
                                > > with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him
                                at any
                                > > time with 3 votes.
                                > >
                                > > Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                                > > Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                                > > curriculum always interests me.
                                > >
                                > > Adrienne
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • troubled_h2o
                                Good stuff, Charley. The gospel of the Ed Code.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                                  Good stuff, Charley. The gospel of the Ed Code.
                                • Charley Cowens
                                  Scottie- Here s the dates/times for 3 candidate forums sponsored by LWV/PTA/WCCUSD, moderated by the League of Women Voters, West Contra Costa Chapter.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 7, 2006
                                    Scottie-

                                    Here's the dates/times for 3 candidate forums sponsored by
                                    LWV/PTA/WCCUSD, moderated by the League of Women Voters, West Contra
                                    Costa Chapter.

                                    Wednesday Oct. 11 @ Kennedy HS, 7-9 p.m.
                                    Wednesday Oct. 25 @ Hercules HS, 7-9 p.m.
                                    Saturday, Oct. 28 @ De Anza HS, 10 a.m. - 12 noon

                                    If anyone hears of any other dates please share.

                                    Charley Cowens

                                    On 9/3/06, rcs101@... <rcs101@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --I think the all the questions are good ones and Elizabeth's should be asked right out. By the way, Charlie, could you post a list of dates and locations for candidates' forums?
                                    >
                                    > Scottie Smith
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                    > From: <axharris@...>
                                    > > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > _____
                                    > >
                                    > > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
                                    > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
                                    > > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
                                    > > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
                                    > > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
                                    > > their services.
                                    > >
                                    > > Charley Cowens
                                    > >
                                    > > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
                                    > > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
                                    > > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
                                    > > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
                                    > > > will based on seniority?
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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