Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues

Expand Messages
  • rcs101@att.net
    --I think the all the questions are good ones and Elizabeth s should be asked right out. By the way, Charlie, could you post a list of dates and locations for
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 3, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      --I think the all the questions are good ones and Elizabeth's should be asked right out. By the way, Charlie, could you post a list of dates and locations for candidates' forums?

      Scottie Smith



      -------------- Original message ----------------------
      From: <axharris@...>
      > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
      > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
      > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
      >
      >
      >
      > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
      > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
      > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
      > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
      > their services.
      >
      > Charley Cowens
      >
      > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
      > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
      > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
      > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
      > > will based on seniority?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Charley Cowens
      Scottie, When people give this information to me, I l post it. Charley
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 3, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Scottie,

        When people give this information to me, I'l post it.

        Charley

        On 9/3/06, rcs101@... <rcs101@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > --I think the all the questions are good ones and Elizabeth's should be asked right out. By the way, Charlie, could you post a list of dates and locations for candidates' forums?
        >
        > Scottie Smith
        >
        >
        >
        > -------------- Original message ----------------------
        > From: <axharris@...>
        > > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
        > >
        > >
        > > _____
        > >
        > > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
        > > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
        > > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
        > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
        > > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
        > > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
        > > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
        > > their services.
        > >
        > > Charley Cowens
        > >
        > > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
        > > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
        > > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
        > > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
        > > > will based on seniority?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Charley Cowens
        Yes, I ve thought that before, but the costs of dividing may simply outweigh any benefits. Is there some connection you re trying to make to what we re talking
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 3, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes, I've thought that before, but the costs of dividing may simply
          outweigh any benefits. Is there some connection you're trying to make
          to what we're talking about in this thread?

          Also, who are you? You said you were an ex-school board member. Your
          email user name is "axharris". There are two such people I know of
          with Harris in their names. Are you Adrienne Harris-Pitts?

          Charley Cowens

          On 9/3/06, axharris@... <axharris@...> wrote:
          > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
          > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
          > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
          >
          >
          >
          > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
          > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
          > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
          > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
          > their services.
          >
          > Charley Cowens
          >
          > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
          > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
          > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
          > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
          > > will based on seniority?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • troubled_h2o
          This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR. That s what they get paid for.
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR.
            That's what they get paid for.
          • Elizabeth Jaeger
            Would that UTR leadership had any interest in instruction whatsoever. They were of absolutely no help during the whole Downer 5 ordeal and, in some ways, a
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Would that UTR leadership had any interest in instruction whatsoever.
              They were of absolutely no help during the whole Downer 5 ordeal and,
              in some ways, a hindrance since they managed to convince other
              teachers that we were being "looked after." The only grievances they
              seem equipped to handle are those related to technicalities (e.g., did
              a principal follow the contractual guidelines in conducting a teacher
              evaluation, NOT was a teacher harrassed during the course of the
              evaluation process).

              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "troubled_h2o" <axharris@...> wrote:
              >
              > This sounds like a problem that should be grievanced through UTR.
              > That's what they get paid for.
              >
            • axharris@sbcglobal.net
              As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,) $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you have
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,)
                $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you
                have properly documented the harassment, and UTR won't help you, you should
                contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up the wrong tree with the
                school board.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eduardo Martinez
                The board should exert their influence so the district doesn t waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  The board should exert their influence so the district
                  doesn't waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases
                  that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
                  of the school district when the administation refuses
                  to act ethically? Who should guard the purse strings
                  when behavior is senselessly scattering dollars at
                  district lawyers when the money could be supporting
                  the instruction on the children? Trying all venues
                  before going to court is the best course of action,
                  but it seems the district is intent on wasting yet
                  thousands more dollars covering their indiscretions.
                  So sad...
                  Yet I feel we must bark up every tree in hopes that
                  others don't continue running down the wrong path.
                  IMHO everyone should be barking as loud as possible.

                  Eduardo

                  --- axharris@... wrote:

                  > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you
                  > expect the (approx,)
                  > $500 a month elected representatives of the public
                  > to do about it? If you
                  > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR
                  > won't help you, you should
                  > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up
                  > the wrong tree with the
                  > school board.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • axharris@sbcglobal.net
                  Americans have a right to due process. Moreover, the individual school board members do not exert as much personal influence over personnel matters as you seem
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Americans have a right to due process. Moreover, the individual school board
                    members do not exert as much personal influence over personnel matters as
                    you seem to think. Lastly, the school board is essentially powerless to
                    mediate personality conflicts. They can't even get along with each other,
                    and anyway, none of them cares much about the schools in Richmond, where I
                    happen to reside.

                    Harrassment is a serious issue. If it can be proven, it should be pressed.

                    Cordially,
                    Adrienne




                    _____

                    From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Eduardo Martinez
                    Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:53 PM
                    To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues



                    The board should exert their influence so the district
                    doesn't waste valuable $$$$$$$ fighting court cases
                    that need not go to court. Who is the moral compass
                    of the school district when the administation refuses
                    to act ethically? Who should guard the purse strings
                    when behavior is senselessly scattering dollars at
                    district lawyers when the money could be supporting
                    the instruction on the children? Trying all venues
                    before going to court is the best course of action,
                    but it seems the district is intent on wasting yet
                    thousands more dollars covering their indiscretions.
                    So sad...
                    Yet I feel we must bark up every tree in hopes that
                    others don't continue running down the wrong path.
                    IMHO everyone should be barking as loud as possible.

                    Eduardo

                    --- axharris@sbcglobal. <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net wrote:

                    > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you
                    > expect the (approx,)
                    > $500 a month elected representatives of the public
                    > to do about it? If you
                    > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR
                    > won't help you, you should
                    > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up
                    > the wrong tree with the
                    > school board.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Charley Cowens
                    Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam requirement) and the purely
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                      authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam
                      requirement) and the purely budgetary veto power of Dr. Fred. The
                      grievance procedure should deal with the bulk of personal type cases
                      (like getting shorted in your paycheck), but there are three possible
                      situations where the grievance procedure approach breaks down: (1)
                      where administrative retaliation is applied to suppress opinions about
                      school policy, (2) where there is a wide pattern to a particular kind
                      of grievance, and (3) where the sheer volume of grievances is
                      excessive. An example of (1) is writing up a teacher for what they
                      said as a member of a site council. As for (3), I'd be curious to know
                      if anyone has any statistics about the grievance rate in this district
                      over time and compared to other districts.

                      Charley Cowens

                      On 9/4/06, axharris@... <axharris@...> wrote:
                      > As unfortunate as your experience was, what do you expect the (approx,)
                      > $500 a month elected representatives of the public to do about it? If you
                      > have properly documented the harassment, and UTR won't help you, you should
                      > contact a lawyer. IMHO you are totally barking up the wrong tree with the
                      > school board.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • axharris@sbcglobal.net
                      What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant to the union contracts. Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR conflict with the educational
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant to the union contracts.
                        Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR conflict with the
                        educational function of its cadre of state-certified professional teachers?
                        If so, this is an issue the public needs to embrace


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Eduardo Martinez
                        Would you please include the quote to which you refer? I have no idea what you consider fanciful, but the district acts pursuant to their wims. That is why
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Would you please include the quote to which you refer?
                          I have no idea what you consider fanciful, but the
                          district acts pursuant to their wims. That is why
                          there are so many grievances. It is the industrial
                          employment model imposed by the district that is the
                          problem and their attempts to force scripted
                          curriculum greatly adversely impacts the educational
                          function of state-certified professional teachers.
                          And yes, I do believe this is an issue the public
                          needs to embrace.

                          Eduardo

                          --- axharris@... wrote:

                          > What you say is fanciful. The distict acts pursuant
                          > to the union contracts.
                          > Does the industrial employment model imposed by UTR
                          > conflict with the
                          > educational function of its cadre of state-certified
                          > professional teachers?
                          > If so, this is an issue the public needs to embrace
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >


                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          http://mail.yahoo.com
                        • troubled_h2o
                          Eduardo: Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District. That is the quote which I described as fanciful.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 4, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Eduardo:
                            "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                            authority over the District."
                            That is the quote which I described as "fanciful."
                          • Charley Cowens
                            Adrienne, The full sentence was Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Adrienne,

                              The full sentence was "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the
                              ultimate controlling
                              authority over the District subject to the State (like the exit exam
                              requirement) and the purely budgetary veto power of Dr. Fred." I
                              should have thrown in contracts it has entered into, but that seemed
                              sort of obvious.

                              The collective bargaining agreement for teachers is between the School
                              Board and the UTR, not among the School Board, the staff, and the
                              UTR. I don't see how directing staff to abstain from the sort of
                              actions involved in the Downer 5 incidents or to remedy them could be
                              a violation of the collective bargaining agreement between teachers
                              and the School Board.

                              Charley Cowens

                              On 9/4/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                              > Eduardo:
                              > "Whatever the Board is paid, they are the ultimate controlling
                              > authority over the District."
                              > That is the quote which I described as "fanciful."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • troubled_h2o
                              Charley- The school board doesn t direct the staff. The school board directs the superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that s why his job
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Charley-
                                The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board directs the
                                superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's why
                                his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is displeased
                                with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him at any
                                time with 3 votes.

                                Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                                Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                                curriculum always interests me.

                                Adrienne
                              • Charley Cowens
                                Adrienne- Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board: 35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any powers delegated
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Adrienne-

                                  Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board:

                                  35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any
                                  powers delegated by law to it or to the district of which it is the
                                  governing board, and shall discharge any duty imposed by law upon it
                                  or upon the district of which it is the governing board, and may
                                  delegate to an officer or employee of the district any of those
                                  powers or duties. The governing board, however, retains ultimate
                                  responsibility over the performance of those powers or duties so
                                  delegated.

                                  This seem rather broad to me. My main point about what I dimly
                                  remember to be the beginning of this thread was that the Board _can_
                                  intervene as much as it wants in matters like the Downer 5. Whether it
                                  _should_ is the real question.

                                  The starting bone of contention at Downer was mostly about the reading
                                  (oh, I mean literacy) program.

                                  Charley Cowens


                                  On 9/5/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                                  > Charley-
                                  > The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board directs the
                                  > superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's why
                                  > his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is displeased
                                  > with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him at any
                                  > time with 3 votes.
                                  >
                                  > Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                                  > Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                                  > curriculum always interests me.
                                  >
                                  > Adrienne
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Elizabeth Jaeger
                                  Yes, the reading program but also the toxic environment created by a series of administrators. ... it ... _can_ ... Whether it ... reading ... directs the ...
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yes, the reading program but also the toxic environment created by a
                                    series of administrators.

                                    --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Charley Cowens"
                                    <charley.cowens@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Adrienne-
                                    >
                                    > Here is the State Ed. Code about the powers of the School Board:
                                    >
                                    > 35161. The governing board of any school district may execute any
                                    > powers delegated by law to it or to the district of which it is the
                                    > governing board, and shall discharge any duty imposed by law upon
                                    it
                                    > or upon the district of which it is the governing board, and may
                                    > delegate to an officer or employee of the district any of those
                                    > powers or duties. The governing board, however, retains ultimate
                                    > responsibility over the performance of those powers or duties so
                                    > delegated.
                                    >
                                    > This seem rather broad to me. My main point about what I dimly
                                    > remember to be the beginning of this thread was that the Board
                                    _can_
                                    > intervene as much as it wants in matters like the Downer 5.
                                    Whether it
                                    > _should_ is the real question.
                                    >
                                    > The starting bone of contention at Downer was mostly about the
                                    reading
                                    > (oh, I mean literacy) program.
                                    >
                                    > Charley Cowens
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 9/5/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@...> wrote:
                                    > > Charley-
                                    > > The school board doesn't direct the staff. The school board
                                    directs the
                                    > > superintendent. The superintendent supervises the staff- that's
                                    why
                                    > > his job title is "superintendent." If the school board is
                                    displeased
                                    > > with how the superintendent implements policy, they can fire him
                                    at any
                                    > > time with 3 votes.
                                    > >
                                    > > Unfortunately, as a newbie, I don't really know what happened at
                                    > > Downer. Was it an issue with math curriculum? Improving math
                                    > > curriculum always interests me.
                                    > >
                                    > > Adrienne
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • troubled_h2o
                                    Good stuff, Charley. The gospel of the Ed Code.
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Good stuff, Charley. The gospel of the Ed Code.
                                    • Charley Cowens
                                      Scottie- Here s the dates/times for 3 candidate forums sponsored by LWV/PTA/WCCUSD, moderated by the League of Women Voters, West Contra Costa Chapter.
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 7, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Scottie-

                                        Here's the dates/times for 3 candidate forums sponsored by
                                        LWV/PTA/WCCUSD, moderated by the League of Women Voters, West Contra
                                        Costa Chapter.

                                        Wednesday Oct. 11 @ Kennedy HS, 7-9 p.m.
                                        Wednesday Oct. 25 @ Hercules HS, 7-9 p.m.
                                        Saturday, Oct. 28 @ De Anza HS, 10 a.m. - 12 noon

                                        If anyone hears of any other dates please share.

                                        Charley Cowens

                                        On 9/3/06, rcs101@... <rcs101@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --I think the all the questions are good ones and Elizabeth's should be asked right out. By the way, Charlie, could you post a list of dates and locations for candidates' forums?
                                        >
                                        > Scottie Smith
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                        > From: <axharris@...>
                                        > > Oh, and did I hear you saying the district is too large?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > _____
                                        > >
                                        > > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > > Behalf Of Charley Cowens
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:40 PM
                                        > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Downer 5 muck continues
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Well how about this counter non-question to match your non-question:
                                        > > How do we make our "flatland" schools places where experienced
                                        > > professionals will want to stay and work instead of being forced to
                                        > > flee to schools (and school districts) that are not as needing of
                                        > > their services.
                                        > >
                                        > > Charley Cowens
                                        > >
                                        > > On 9/3/06, troubled_h2o <axharris@sbcglobal.
                                        > > <mailto:axharris%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
                                        > > > How about this question: What will you do to get rid of clauses in
                                        > > > the UTR contract that allow teachers to abandon our flatland schools at
                                        > > > will based on seniority?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.