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Re: Actual paycuts during bankruptcy

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  • ralphebedwell
    Rebecca, Arguing over the history is really incidental here. The real issue in the current negotiations is how does overall teacher compensation in this
    Message 1 of 5 , May 2, 2005
      Rebecca,

      Arguing over the history is really incidental here. The real issue
      in the current negotiations is how does overall teacher compensation
      in this district compare to that of other districts within commuting
      distance of the WCCUSD area? If other districts offer significantly
      more, many WCCUSD teachers (and likely ones who are among those you
      would most want to keep) will choose to change districts. That's
      just reality.

      Anyway, we're asking dedicated workers in an important field who have
      put a lot of time and education into becoming skilled professionals
      to agree to take less in compensation for their services than they
      have been, despite the fact that their real compensation has been
      dropping for years even without these changes being made. You can't
      blame them for resisting this, can you?

      Ralph

      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Hazlewood <rah_tax@s...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Referring to the below comment in Shirley Dang's article in the
      Times today. The year before the bankruptcy Dr. Marks gave the
      teachers an 8% pay increase. The next year he gave them a 9% pay
      increase. For a total of a 17% pay increase. What was rescinded
      during the bankruptcy was the second pay increase. But the teachers
      have kept the original 8% pay increase granted by Dr. Marks, in
      addition to any other pay increases that have been granted over the
      years. Dr. Marks' philosophy was to raise teacher pay to attract the
      best and the brightest to the district. That was the same philosophy
      that Dennis Chaconis had in Oakland. Please read the recent
      article, "Caustic Reformer."
      >
      > But I would also like to say here that I think the rise in
      administrator salaries and benefits is reprehensible and they get all
      the same lifetime health benefits. So I believe this problem divides
      equally between the teachers, the administrators and the classified
      staff.
      >
      > It looks to me like education will go down the drain before all the
      benefits; perks; and extras do for the people that run and staff our
      schools.
      >
      > Rebecca
      >
      > "...Union leaders said teachers have already taken massive pay cuts
      in order to ensure lifetime benefits. For instance, when the district
      went bankrupt in 1991, teachers took a 9 percent hit..".
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rebecca Hazlewood
      Ralph, I honestly believe you have one of the most rational and logical voices on this listserv. Yet I must argue with you. Over the years I have seen many
      Message 2 of 5 , May 2, 2005
        Ralph, I honestly believe you have one of the most rational and logical voices on this listserv. Yet I must argue with you. Over the years I have seen many teachers and administrators leave for a variety of reasons. Pay isn't always the reason. Sometimes teachers just want to stake out a new life; other times they can't stand the conditions of employment; sometimes it is pay as you say. And other times we have fantastic teachers who stay here, many of whom I know and respect.

        As for administrators, I have seen some leave to advance in administrative hierarchy. I have seen others fired. In fact I have seen many good ones fired. I just don't believe that this whole compensation package that is currently being offered here and in other places is the primary driver as you suggest. Compensation is important, I agree. But look at prison guards who make substantially more than teachers and yet now are filing unbelievable numbers of union grievances, sorry to say my cousin is one of their lawyers (I told you guys my family are pure civil service). They are so upset at any little reduction in their conditions. My uncle, the one who lives in Eureka, was trained as a teacher, whose wife was the daughter of an Eureka Police Officer, is actually saying that things aren't fair in this state regarding prison guards. That is his father side talking. His daughter is a prison guard lawyer. I know that in his gut of guts he would say what I am saying. This whole thing
        is out of control. He made his living running a pluming supply company after getting his teaching credential in SF, so he could be with his love, my aunt Marylee. He is the most balanced person I know, but now that his baby is a prison guard lawyer he has to back her up. I said nothing to my dear Uncle as he was explaining all this to me. I know how much he loves his kids.

        But if we are able to speak up, because we have no conflict of interest, we must, and I don't, have a conflict of interest that is.

        Rebecca


        ralphebedwell <ralphebedwell@...> wrote:
        Rebecca,

        Arguing over the history is really incidental here. The real issue
        in the current negotiations is how does overall teacher compensation
        in this district compare to that of other districts within commuting
        distance of the WCCUSD area? If other districts offer significantly
        more, many WCCUSD teachers (and likely ones who are among those you
        would most want to keep) will choose to change districts. That's
        just reality.

        Anyway, we're asking dedicated workers in an important field who have
        put a lot of time and education into becoming skilled professionals
        to agree to take less in compensation for their services than they
        have been, despite the fact that their real compensation has been
        dropping for years even without these changes being made. You can't
        blame them for resisting this, can you?

        Ralph

        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Hazlewood <rah_tax@s...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Referring to the below comment in Shirley Dang's article in the
        Times today. The year before the bankruptcy Dr. Marks gave the
        teachers an 8% pay increase. The next year he gave them a 9% pay
        increase. For a total of a 17% pay increase. What was rescinded
        during the bankruptcy was the second pay increase. But the teachers
        have kept the original 8% pay increase granted by Dr. Marks, in
        addition to any other pay increases that have been granted over the
        years. Dr. Marks' philosophy was to raise teacher pay to attract the
        best and the brightest to the district. That was the same philosophy
        that Dennis Chaconis had in Oakland. Please read the recent
        article, "Caustic Reformer."
        >
        > But I would also like to say here that I think the rise in
        administrator salaries and benefits is reprehensible and they get all
        the same lifetime health benefits. So I believe this problem divides
        equally between the teachers, the administrators and the classified
        staff.
        >
        > It looks to me like education will go down the drain before all the
        benefits; perks; and extras do for the people that run and staff our
        schools.
        >
        > Rebecca
        >
        > "...Union leaders said teachers have already taken massive pay cuts
        in order to ensure lifetime benefits. For instance, when the district
        went bankrupt in 1991, teachers took a 9 percent hit..".
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bea Lieberman
        I need to make a comment here.There are many dedicated and experienced teachers who CHOOSE to work in WCCUSD despite the low pay.for the students.Yes, it is
        Message 3 of 5 , May 3, 2005
          I need to make a comment here.There are many dedicated and experienced
          teachers who CHOOSE to work in WCCUSD despite the low pay.for the
          students.Yes, it is true.Even though WCCUSD treats teachers like "..."
          there are those among us that wish to work with the children that live
          in this area.Don't assume that all the best teachers will automatically
          gravitate to higher paying districts...Perhaps we are fools.but please
          don't overlook the wonderful teachers who do stay.year after
          year..plugging away.It's rather insulting when you make the assumption
          that good teachers will automatically leave..Thanks.Bea

          -----Original Message-----
          From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of ralphebedwell
          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:14 PM
          To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Actual paycuts during bankruptcy

          Rebecca,

          Arguing over the history is really incidental here. The real issue
          in the current negotiations is how does overall teacher compensation
          in this district compare to that of other districts within commuting
          distance of the WCCUSD area? If other districts offer significantly
          more, many WCCUSD teachers (and likely ones who are among those you
          would most want to keep) will choose to change districts. That's
          just reality.

          Anyway, we're asking dedicated workers in an important field who have
          put a lot of time and education into becoming skilled professionals
          to agree to take less in compensation for their services than they
          have been, despite the fact that their real compensation has been
          dropping for years even without these changes being made. You can't
          blame them for resisting this, can you?

          Ralph

          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Hazlewood <rah_tax@s...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Referring to the below comment in Shirley Dang's article in the
          Times today. The year before the bankruptcy Dr. Marks gave the
          teachers an 8% pay increase. The next year he gave them a 9% pay
          increase. For a total of a 17% pay increase. What was rescinded
          during the bankruptcy was the second pay increase. But the teachers
          have kept the original 8% pay increase granted by Dr. Marks, in
          addition to any other pay increases that have been granted over the
          years. Dr. Marks' philosophy was to raise teacher pay to attract the
          best and the brightest to the district. That was the same philosophy
          that Dennis Chaconis had in Oakland. Please read the recent
          article, "Caustic Reformer."
          >
          > But I would also like to say here that I think the rise in
          administrator salaries and benefits is reprehensible and they get all
          the same lifetime health benefits. So I believe this problem divides
          equally between the teachers, the administrators and the classified
          staff.
          >
          > It looks to me like education will go down the drain before all the
          benefits; perks; and extras do for the people that run and staff our
          schools.
          >
          > Rebecca
          >
          > "...Union leaders said teachers have already taken massive pay cuts
          in order to ensure lifetime benefits. For instance, when the district
          went bankrupt in 1991, teachers took a 9 percent hit..".
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          _____

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ralphebedwell
          Bea, I didn t say that all the best teachers will automatically gravitate to higher paying districts. However, SOME of the will definitely do so, and SOME
          Message 4 of 5 , May 3, 2005
            Bea,

            I didn't say that "all the best teachers will automatically gravitate
            to higher paying districts." However, SOME of the will definitely do
            so, and SOME talented newcomers who will eventually become great
            teachers will choose to start their careers elsewhere. If you lose
            SOME of the best here, and SOME of the best there, the net result is
            that MOST kids lose. Yes, SOME will stay, but not ALL.

            For example, I know a great teacher -- definitely among the best that
            I have been around -- who is choosing to leave our district at the
            end of the year for a neighboring district. Why? She will receive a
            $10,000 raise. Why is that important? She has two kids to support,
            and a mortgage. This decision does not make her any less dedicated
            to kids; she will be teaching just as many kids in her new job as she
            has been teaching here. They will get the benefit of her experience,
            expertise, and talent, not WCCUSD kids. As her credential is an area
            of scarcity, it is likely that she will be replaced by a newcomer,
            perhaps even someone without a full credential. I'm sure she is not
            the only one, and inevitably more will follow in the future.

            Rebecca is correct that not everyone who leaves a job does so because
            of the money. But SOME do, and that contributes to the overall brain
            drain that compromises our children's education.

            Ralph

            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Bea Lieberman" <bilanalieb@c...>
            wrote:
            > I need to make a comment here.There are many dedicated and
            experienced
            > teachers who CHOOSE to work in WCCUSD despite the low pay.for the
            > students.Yes, it is true.Even though WCCUSD treats teachers
            like "..."
            > there are those among us that wish to work with the children that
            live
            > in this area.Don't assume that all the best teachers will
            automatically
            > gravitate to higher paying districts...Perhaps we are fools.but
            please
            > don't overlook the wonderful teachers who do stay.year after
            > year..plugging away.It's rather insulting when you make the
            assumption
            > that good teachers will automatically leave..Thanks.Bea
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of ralphebedwell
            > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:14 PM
            > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Actual paycuts during bankruptcy
            >
            > Rebecca,
            >
            > Arguing over the history is really incidental here. The real issue
            > in the current negotiations is how does overall teacher
            compensation
            > in this district compare to that of other districts within
            commuting
            > distance of the WCCUSD area? If other districts offer
            significantly
            > more, many WCCUSD teachers (and likely ones who are among those you
            > would most want to keep) will choose to change districts. That's
            > just reality.
            >
            > Anyway, we're asking dedicated workers in an important field who
            have
            > put a lot of time and education into becoming skilled professionals
            > to agree to take less in compensation for their services than they
            > have been, despite the fact that their real compensation has been
            > dropping for years even without these changes being made. You
            can't
            > blame them for resisting this, can you?
            >
            > Ralph
            >
            > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Hazlewood <rah_tax@s...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Referring to the below comment in Shirley Dang's article in the
            > Times today. The year before the bankruptcy Dr. Marks gave the
            > teachers an 8% pay increase. The next year he gave them a 9% pay
            > increase. For a total of a 17% pay increase. What was rescinded
            > during the bankruptcy was the second pay increase. But the teachers
            > have kept the original 8% pay increase granted by Dr. Marks, in
            > addition to any other pay increases that have been granted over the
            > years. Dr. Marks' philosophy was to raise teacher pay to attract
            the
            > best and the brightest to the district. That was the same
            philosophy
            > that Dennis Chaconis had in Oakland. Please read the recent
            > article, "Caustic Reformer."
            > >
            > > But I would also like to say here that I think the rise in
            > administrator salaries and benefits is reprehensible and they get
            all
            > the same lifetime health benefits. So I believe this problem
            divides
            > equally between the teachers, the administrators and the classified
            > staff.
            > >
            > > It looks to me like education will go down the drain before all
            the
            > benefits; perks; and extras do for the people that run and staff
            our
            > schools.
            > >
            > > Rebecca
            > >
            > > "...Union leaders said teachers have already taken massive pay
            cuts
            > in order to ensure lifetime benefits. For instance, when the
            district
            > went bankrupt in 1991, teachers took a 9 percent hit..".
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wccusdtalk/
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > wccusdtalk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:wccusdtalk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
            of
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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