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Re: Merit pay

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  • Ann
    Would you then be for performance measure if it does not impact pay - just retention decisions? It s just that I ve seen teachers who according to the eyes of
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 24, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Would you then be for performance measure if it does not impact pay - just retention decisions?

      It's just that I've seen teachers who according to the eyes of their "customers" (aka parents) are not performing. The test scores of the students reflect as much. Somehow, we don't or can't seem to deal with these teachers so parents leave as a result.

      I thought to fix education we need among other things, involved parents and money. Decreasing attendance is not going to get us either.


      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@...> wrote:
      >
      > I don't think anyone is sticking their head in the sand; people are just
      > refusing to see what is in front of them. Studies have shown that merit pay
      > doesn't work. There are cogent arguments against the use of merit pay and the
      > use of test scores for determining pay. The sooner we drop this red herring as
      > a way to fix education, the sooner we can start to address the improvement of
      > education.
      >
      > Eduardo
      > http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
      > As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
      > for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Ann <annpalmer8@...>
      > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 10:45:40 PM
      > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Merit pay
      >
      >
      > The day where parents are going to demand some form of performance measure for
      > their teachers is approaching. So rather than sticking our heads in the sand, I
      > believe teachers should confront the issue head on and make the measurement as
      > fair and meaningful as possible.
      >
      > The families with means have already voted for this with their exodus. If our
      > teachers are truly working for the good of our kids, then they need to stop
      > rejecting this which will simply result in more and more exodus that translate
      > into less and less resources for the students that need it the most.
      >
      > I have seen bad teachers - one who did not even finish the curriculum and failed
      > an entire class of students under their care - go on to teach at another school.
      > I have also seem good teachers - who took those students failed by their
      > previous grade teacher and brought them up to standard. So I can't believe
      > teachers don't see this among themselves, and I can't believe good teachers who
      > really care about the children does not want some change.
      >
      > I believe a good measurement will include test scores as part of the equation,
      > but it's not all based on test score.
      >
      >
      > The measurement will be based on improvement, not an absolute score. However,
      > passing grade level should be a non-negotiable.
      >
      >
      > The process will include ways to exclude students that are anomalies (has
      > learning disabilities, has family that does not care about education or working
      > with the teacher, has not met grade level for the past 3 years when the measure
      > goes into effect) so teachers aren't unfairly penalized for things beyond their
      > control.
      >
      >
      > It will be developed in partnership between teachers, parents, administrators
      > and education experts.
      >
      >
      > The scores should be published so we make sure everyone is honest and no school
      > is unfairly laden with too many high or low performing teachers. However, the
      > identity of the teacher probably should be reserved only for select people like
      > the Principals or Superintendent to assess development needs or merit pay.
      >
      > For those concerned that teachers will start cherry-picking good students or
      > stop sharing best practice, perhaps the system should remove teachers from
      > student selection, or strong teachers could have a higher proportion of low
      > performing students (sort of like a handicap) to level the playing field. This
      > is also where a good and involved Principal can help figure out what one is
      > doing well and share it with others. Perhaps we can even institute a special
      > bonus for those that share practices resulting in overall improvement in other
      > teachers at their school or district.
      >
      > Low scoring teachers will have a chance to get development/training to help
      > improve their scores - just like most companies have to put low performers on a
      > performance improvement plan for a few months before they can terminate them.
      > This ensures those who really want to do well have the help they need and a
      > second chance to prove themselves.
      >
      > The process will be revisited regularly by the committee, to see if more
      > adjustments are needed, or if it uncovers changes needed in other areas such as
      > district policy or how we promote students from grade to grade when they can't
      > seem to master basics.
      >
      > I agree with Jim, good teachers should not be afraid of measurement - if they
      > are set up in a meaningful way. Good teachers who are here for the children
      > will want measurements; as I'm sure like other workers in America, they are not
      > happy seeing someone produce poor products and still get by in the system,
      > collecting as much if not more money than them simply because they have tenure,
      > and smearing the good names of those that are truly educating America's young.
      >
      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Jim Cowen <jimcowen@> wrote:
      > >
      > > a level playing field?
      > >
      > > YES.
      > >
      > > Waitresses get tips based on competence. Some stations are better. Some shifts
      > >are better. Some restaurants are better. But a good waitress consistently gets
      > >more tips than a bad waitress.
      > >
      > > Car salesmen get paid commission. Some sides of the lot are better. Some shifts
      > >are better. Some dealerships are better. But a good car salesman consistently
      > >makes more commission than a bad salesman.
      > >
      > > Teachers get paid on merit. (meaning INCREASES in scores, not high scores).
      > >Some schools are better. Some parents are better. Some principals are better.
      > >But a good teacher will consistently improve the scores of their class year over
      > >year, thus getting more merit pay.
      > >
      > > And, here's the best part - BAD teachers will consistently get less pay, and
      > >hopefully most of them will leave the profession and find something they are
      > >better at. A win for students. A win for the teacher. A win for the profession.
      > >
      > > That's a pretty level playing field.
      > >
      > > Keep in mind, merit would only affect a PART of the pay, not all of it.
      > >
      > > Jim Cowen
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Diamel@ <Diamel@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Diamel@ <Diamel@>
      > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
      > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
      > >
      > >
      > > Are we working with a level playing field?
      > > Diane
      > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@>
      > > Sender: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:18:34
      > > To: <wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
      > >
      > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne <mtsustak@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "Merit pay" would... put even more pressure on teachers ...to achieve high
      > >test scores ..., punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms, ...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I disagree. Merit pay puts pressure to IMPROVE test scores, and punishes
      > >teachers who FAIL to help their students IMPROVE. A proper merit pay program
      > >would reward a teacher who's extreme low scoring students improved, and punish a
      > >teacher who's extreme high scoring students dropped in scores.
      > >
      > >
      > > In fact, since improving low scores is more achievable than maintaining high
      > >scores, a proper merit pay program would encourage the best teachers to WANT to
      > >teach at low scoring schools; something the current system discourages.
      > >
      > > Good teachers should not be afraid of a merit pay system. Only low performing
      > >teachers, the ones that must rely on tenure and unions as the only reason they
      > >can keep their jobs, should fear such a system.
      > >
      > > Sincerely
      > > the spouse of a WCCUSD teacher,
      > > Jim Cowen
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Kevin Rivard
      I asked a simple question, or so I thought. Let me ask it in another way. How many teachers in WCCUSD are non-union percentage wise? I will ask my other
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        I asked a simple question, or so I thought. Let me ask it in another way. How many teachers in WCCUSD are non-union percentage wise? I will ask my other question again as well, how many teachers are union percentage wise? I do not understand how Norma's response answers those questions. Does anyone have the answer? Let me ask another while I am at it. We have Charter schools in our district. Are those teachers Union or non-union?

        Kevin



        To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        From: normaha@...
        Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:07:57 -0700
        Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk]






        The problem is that teaching, like the rest of working for 'school', like most
        jobs we're permitted, are just that, jobs. People who should teach are people
        getting together to do things community wants and needs done. Within that
        consortium are people who want to gain and give what they know and want to know.
        This is not an age-segregated experience, but an interest one. This is not
        compulsory - by the state, so we can all come out lock-step into a job.
        This is us being community together - what we do in our off-time, authenticating
        our actual selves, instead of submitting to the alienation capitalism requires
        of us, to do our Owners' work for their profit and power.
        Don't blame me for the truth.
        In a reasonable society no one would have to tell someone you're misbehaving go
        to the Principal's office for discipline.
        In a reasonable society people would be healing themselves through doing the
        things that feel good to do. Evaluation would be integral to that - friendly
        people would say yes that's the way, no that's not the way, and the other person
        would either agree or offer ideas of why their way has or doesn't have value.
        Exchanges on-site would be the evaluation. it would not be punitive, and have
        to do with status.
        Meanwhile we'd supplement our energy for a while burning those treatises and
        tracts that say - a 2 year old does this; a 13 year old does that. Those are so
        wholly presumptuous and distortive as to frighten ANYone.

        School board candidates everywhere mouth palliatives that are supposed to stand
        for substance. But they keep telling how they'd do again what doesn't work.

        Charter schools are like Wal-Marts, totally anti-union.
        Norma
        To: WCCUSDtalk@yahoogroups.com From: mtsustak@... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010
        00:06:46 -0700 Subject: [wccusdtalk] FYI about Jason Freeman school board
        candidate.

        Margaret Browne
        _____
        Jason S. Freeman grew up in Tennessee, attended Duke University, Durham, North
        Carolina. He got his MA from Harvard Kennedy School of Government. He was part
        of the founding team at the IDEA academy, now IDEA Public Schools, an
        independently managed Charter School system of 22 charter schools in the Rio
        Grande Valley, in deep South Texas. On the board of directors for IDEA academy
        is Teach for America, Lone Star State Bank, Morgan Stanley, International Bank
        of Commerce, etc. IDEA Public Schools is now a public independent charter school
        district. It will have 8,000 students in 2012.

        So Jason S. Freeman can say he is devoted to public schools, because this
        charter district runs on public school money.

        (95% of charter school teachers are not unionized.)

        He co-wrote language in the federal "Race to the Top", with Glen Price and
        Congressman George Miller, about tracking teacher data in order to assess
        student and teacher progress and accountability. We assume this is the "value
        added" scheme marketed as "Merit pay", an enormously problematic provision in
        the "Race to the Top" assault on teacher unions.

        He presented this information to the UTR Executive board and the UTR Political
        Action Committee in hopes of an endorsement by UTR.

        Jason S. Freeman is all about privatizing our school district.

        "Merit pay" would pit teachers against each other for high achieving students,
        put even more pressure on teachers and students to achieve high test scores on
        inauthentic assessments, punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms,
        eventually even firing teachers for consistently low test scores. This "merit
        pay" scheme is a serious threat to seniority and tenure rights.

        Teacher unions across the US are fighting against these "value added" "merit
        pay" provisions because they perceive them as union busting.

        The UTR Representative Council voted not to endorse Jason Freeman.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kevin Rivard
        Ann, I asked another question prompted by the same post you responded to and no one seems to have an answer or they won t answer. I asked how many Union and
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
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          Ann,

          I asked another question prompted by the same post you responded to and no one seems to have an answer or they won't answer. I asked how many Union and Non-union teachers are in our schools both regular and Charter. I am still waiting for a response.

          Kevin


          To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          From: annpalmer8@...
          Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:06:56 +0000
          Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Merit pay






          Would you then be for performance measure if it does not impact pay - just retention decisions?

          It's just that I've seen teachers who according to the eyes of their "customers" (aka parents) are not performing. The test scores of the students reflect as much. Somehow, we don't or can't seem to deal with these teachers so parents leave as a result.

          I thought to fix education we need among other things, involved parents and money. Decreasing attendance is not going to get us either.

          --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't think anyone is sticking their head in the sand; people are just
          > refusing to see what is in front of them. Studies have shown that merit pay
          > doesn't work. There are cogent arguments against the use of merit pay and the
          > use of test scores for determining pay. The sooner we drop this red herring as
          > a way to fix education, the sooner we can start to address the improvement of
          > education.
          >
          > Eduardo
          > http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
          > As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
          > for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Ann <annpalmer8@...>
          > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 10:45:40 PM
          > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Merit pay
          >
          >
          > The day where parents are going to demand some form of performance measure for
          > their teachers is approaching. So rather than sticking our heads in the sand, I
          > believe teachers should confront the issue head on and make the measurement as
          > fair and meaningful as possible.
          >
          > The families with means have already voted for this with their exodus. If our
          > teachers are truly working for the good of our kids, then they need to stop
          > rejecting this which will simply result in more and more exodus that translate
          > into less and less resources for the students that need it the most.
          >
          > I have seen bad teachers - one who did not even finish the curriculum and failed
          > an entire class of students under their care - go on to teach at another school.
          > I have also seem good teachers - who took those students failed by their
          > previous grade teacher and brought them up to standard. So I can't believe
          > teachers don't see this among themselves, and I can't believe good teachers who
          > really care about the children does not want some change.
          >
          > I believe a good measurement will include test scores as part of the equation,
          > but it's not all based on test score.
          >
          >
          > The measurement will be based on improvement, not an absolute score. However,
          > passing grade level should be a non-negotiable.
          >
          >
          > The process will include ways to exclude students that are anomalies (has
          > learning disabilities, has family that does not care about education or working
          > with the teacher, has not met grade level for the past 3 years when the measure
          > goes into effect) so teachers aren't unfairly penalized for things beyond their
          > control.
          >
          >
          > It will be developed in partnership between teachers, parents, administrators
          > and education experts.
          >
          >
          > The scores should be published so we make sure everyone is honest and no school
          > is unfairly laden with too many high or low performing teachers. However, the
          > identity of the teacher probably should be reserved only for select people like
          > the Principals or Superintendent to assess development needs or merit pay.
          >
          > For those concerned that teachers will start cherry-picking good students or
          > stop sharing best practice, perhaps the system should remove teachers from
          > student selection, or strong teachers could have a higher proportion of low
          > performing students (sort of like a handicap) to level the playing field. This
          > is also where a good and involved Principal can help figure out what one is
          > doing well and share it with others. Perhaps we can even institute a special
          > bonus for those that share practices resulting in overall improvement in other
          > teachers at their school or district.
          >
          > Low scoring teachers will have a chance to get development/training to help
          > improve their scores - just like most companies have to put low performers on a
          > performance improvement plan for a few months before they can terminate them.
          > This ensures those who really want to do well have the help they need and a
          > second chance to prove themselves.
          >
          > The process will be revisited regularly by the committee, to see if more
          > adjustments are needed, or if it uncovers changes needed in other areas such as
          > district policy or how we promote students from grade to grade when they can't
          > seem to master basics.
          >
          > I agree with Jim, good teachers should not be afraid of measurement - if they
          > are set up in a meaningful way. Good teachers who are here for the children
          > will want measurements; as I'm sure like other workers in America, they are not
          > happy seeing someone produce poor products and still get by in the system,
          > collecting as much if not more money than them simply because they have tenure,
          > and smearing the good names of those that are truly educating America's young.
          >
          > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Jim Cowen <jimcowen@> wrote:
          > >
          > > a level playing field?
          > >
          > > YES.
          > >
          > > Waitresses get tips based on competence. Some stations are better. Some shifts
          > >are better. Some restaurants are better. But a good waitress consistently gets
          > >more tips than a bad waitress.
          > >
          > > Car salesmen get paid commission. Some sides of the lot are better. Some shifts
          > >are better. Some dealerships are better. But a good car salesman consistently
          > >makes more commission than a bad salesman.
          > >
          > > Teachers get paid on merit. (meaning INCREASES in scores, not high scores).
          > >Some schools are better. Some parents are better. Some principals are better.
          > >But a good teacher will consistently improve the scores of their class year over
          > >year, thus getting more merit pay.
          > >
          > > And, here's the best part - BAD teachers will consistently get less pay, and
          > >hopefully most of them will leave the profession and find something they are
          > >better at. A win for students. A win for the teacher. A win for the profession.
          > >
          > > That's a pretty level playing field.
          > >
          > > Keep in mind, merit would only affect a PART of the pay, not all of it.
          > >
          > > Jim Cowen
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Diamel@ <Diamel@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > From: Diamel@ <Diamel@>
          > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
          > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
          > >
          > >
          > > Are we working with a level playing field?
          > > Diane
          > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@>
          > > Sender: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:18:34
          > > To: <wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
          > >
          > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne <mtsustak@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "Merit pay" would... put even more pressure on teachers ...to achieve high
          > >test scores ..., punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms, ...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I disagree. Merit pay puts pressure to IMPROVE test scores, and punishes
          > >teachers who FAIL to help their students IMPROVE. A proper merit pay program
          > >would reward a teacher who's extreme low scoring students improved, and punish a
          > >teacher who's extreme high scoring students dropped in scores.
          > >
          > >
          > > In fact, since improving low scores is more achievable than maintaining high
          > >scores, a proper merit pay program would encourage the best teachers to WANT to
          > >teach at low scoring schools; something the current system discourages.
          > >
          > > Good teachers should not be afraid of a merit pay system. Only low performing
          > >teachers, the ones that must rely on tenure and unions as the only reason they
          > >can keep their jobs, should fear such a system.
          > >
          > > Sincerely
          > > the spouse of a WCCUSD teacher,
          > > Jim Cowen
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Eduardo Martinez
          One again, test scores are too arbitrary to use for any important decision. When working at one school, because my Spanish was better than the other teachers,
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            One again, test scores are too arbitrary to use for any important decision.
            When working at one school, because my Spanish was better than the other
            teachers, I was given all the new immigrants. Because we were starting at
            square one with many students, the average of my class scores were much lower
            than the other teachers. The following year, the test scores rose slightly but
            not much because the students still did not have a strong enough command of
            English to understand much of the test. The SABE was done away with that year.
            At another school, I team taught with a teacher whom I consider to be the best
            ever. We experienced the same results with both classes: one made great
            advances in test scores and the other barely registered improvement.
            I attributed the difference in motivation: one group we were able to motivate,
            the other seemed to have socializing as their major focus. If we had not team
            taught, we would have only been able to make the conclusion that the teacher
            with the least improvement of test scores was the lesser teacher. Situations
            like this occur yearly. There are too many factors that enter into the results
            of test scores to attribute the results to the quality of the teacher and there
            are too many aspects to education to judge the quality of education to simple
            test scores.

            I understand that you would like to make provisions for such situations, but
            still, judging teachers by test scores is like judging a pie by the texture of
            the crust; it is an indicator of the quality of the pie, but not enough to
            dismiss it. I hear arguments about the union holding this godlike power over
            the termination process and I tell you it is nonsense. If the district can
            transfer five good teachers from one school in the same year, two of them
            mid-year, for writing one letter to their colleagues, and fabricate a negative
            evaluation to hurry the process along, why can't they terminate a bad one? I
            tell you it's not because of the union. If the union had the power that some of
            you imagine that it does, none of those teachers would have been transferred.
            This is a case in which the administration is trying to cover their
            incompetence with excuses and at the same time acquire those godlike powers they
            claim the union possesses.
            http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
            As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
            for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison




            ________________________________
            From: Ann <annpalmer8@...>
            To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 11:06:56 PM
            Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Merit pay


            Would you then be for performance measure if it does not impact pay - just
            retention decisions?

            It's just that I've seen teachers who according to the eyes of their "customers"
            (aka parents) are not performing. The test scores of the students reflect as
            much. Somehow, we don't or can't seem to deal with these teachers so parents
            leave as a result.

            I thought to fix education we need among other things, involved parents and
            money. Decreasing attendance is not going to get us either.

            --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't think anyone is sticking their head in the sand; people are just
            > refusing to see what is in front of them. Studies have shown that merit pay
            > doesn't work. There are cogent arguments against the use of merit pay and the

            > use of test scores for determining pay. The sooner we drop this red herring as
            >
            > a way to fix education, the sooner we can start to address the improvement of
            > education.
            >
            > Eduardo
            > http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
            > As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments

            > for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Ann <annpalmer8@...>
            > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 10:45:40 PM
            > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Merit pay
            >
            >
            > The day where parents are going to demand some form of performance measure for

            > their teachers is approaching. So rather than sticking our heads in the sand,
            >I
            >
            > believe teachers should confront the issue head on and make the measurement as

            > fair and meaningful as possible.
            >
            > The families with means have already voted for this with their exodus. If our

            > teachers are truly working for the good of our kids, then they need to stop
            > rejecting this which will simply result in more and more exodus that translate

            > into less and less resources for the students that need it the most.
            >
            > I have seen bad teachers - one who did not even finish the curriculum and
            >failed
            >
            > an entire class of students under their care - go on to teach at another
            >school.
            >
            > I have also seem good teachers - who took those students failed by their
            > previous grade teacher and brought them up to standard. So I can't believe
            > teachers don't see this among themselves, and I can't believe good teachers who
            >
            > really care about the children does not want some change.
            >
            > I believe a good measurement will include test scores as part of the equation,

            > but it's not all based on test score.
            >
            >
            > The measurement will be based on improvement, not an absolute score. However,

            > passing grade level should be a non-negotiable.
            >
            >
            > The process will include ways to exclude students that are anomalies (has
            > learning disabilities, has family that does not care about education or working
            >
            > with the teacher, has not met grade level for the past 3 years when the measure
            >
            > goes into effect) so teachers aren't unfairly penalized for things beyond their
            >
            > control.
            >
            >
            > It will be developed in partnership between teachers, parents, administrators
            > and education experts.
            >
            >
            > The scores should be published so we make sure everyone is honest and no school
            >
            > is unfairly laden with too many high or low performing teachers. However, the

            > identity of the teacher probably should be reserved only for select people like
            >
            > the Principals or Superintendent to assess development needs or merit pay.
            >
            > For those concerned that teachers will start cherry-picking good students or
            > stop sharing best practice, perhaps the system should remove teachers from
            > student selection, or strong teachers could have a higher proportion of low
            > performing students (sort of like a handicap) to level the playing field. This
            >
            > is also where a good and involved Principal can help figure out what one is
            > doing well and share it with others. Perhaps we can even institute a special
            > bonus for those that share practices resulting in overall improvement in other

            > teachers at their school or district.
            >
            > Low scoring teachers will have a chance to get development/training to help
            > improve their scores - just like most companies have to put low performers on a
            >
            > performance improvement plan for a few months before they can terminate them.
            > This ensures those who really want to do well have the help they need and a
            > second chance to prove themselves.
            >
            > The process will be revisited regularly by the committee, to see if more
            > adjustments are needed, or if it uncovers changes needed in other areas such as
            >
            > district policy or how we promote students from grade to grade when they can't

            > seem to master basics.
            >
            > I agree with Jim, good teachers should not be afraid of measurement - if they
            > are set up in a meaningful way. Good teachers who are here for the children
            > will want measurements; as I'm sure like other workers in America, they are not
            >
            > happy seeing someone produce poor products and still get by in the system,
            > collecting as much if not more money than them simply because they have tenure,
            >
            > and smearing the good names of those that are truly educating America's young.
            >
            > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Jim Cowen <jimcowen@> wrote:
            > >
            > > a level playing field?
            > >
            > > YES.
            > >
            > > Waitresses get tips based on competence. Some stations are better. Some
            >shifts
            >
            > >are better. Some restaurants are better. But a good waitress consistently
            >gets
            >
            > >more tips than a bad waitress.
            > >
            > > Car salesmen get paid commission. Some sides of the lot are better. Some
            >shifts
            >
            > >are better. Some dealerships are better. But a good car salesman consistently

            > >makes more commission than a bad salesman.
            > >
            > > Teachers get paid on merit. (meaning INCREASES in scores, not high scores).

            > >Some schools are better. Some parents are better. Some principals are better.

            > >But a good teacher will consistently improve the scores of their class year
            >over
            >
            > >year, thus getting more merit pay.
            > >
            > > And, here's the best part - BAD teachers will consistently get less pay, and

            > >hopefully most of them will leave the profession and find something they are
            > >better at. A win for students. A win for the teacher. A win for the
            >profession.
            > >
            > > That's a pretty level playing field.
            > >
            > > Keep in mind, merit would only affect a PART of the pay, not all of it.
            > >
            > > Jim Cowen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Diamel@ <Diamel@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > From: Diamel@ <Diamel@>
            > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
            > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
            > >
            > >
            > > Are we working with a level playing field?
            > > Diane
            > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@>
            > > Sender: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:18:34
            > > To: <wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
            > >
            > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne <mtsustak@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > "Merit pay" would... put even more pressure on teachers ...to achieve high
            > >test scores ..., punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms, ...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I disagree. Merit pay puts pressure to IMPROVE test scores, and punishes
            > >teachers who FAIL to help their students IMPROVE. A proper merit pay program

            > >would reward a teacher who's extreme low scoring students improved, and punish
            >a
            >
            > >teacher who's extreme high scoring students dropped in scores.
            > >
            > >
            > > In fact, since improving low scores is more achievable than maintaining high

            > >scores, a proper merit pay program would encourage the best teachers to WANT
            >to
            >
            > >teach at low scoring schools; something the current system discourages.
            > >
            > > Good teachers should not be afraid of a merit pay system. Only low
            >performing
            >
            > >teachers, the ones that must rely on tenure and unions as the only reason they
            >
            > >can keep their jobs, should fear such a system.
            > >
            > > Sincerely
            > > the spouse of a WCCUSD teacher,
            > > Jim Cowen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Cathy Travlos
            My understanding is that charter school teachers aren t necessarily (maybe ever) part of the teachers union. Also, my understanding is that all teachers in
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              My understanding is that charter school teachers aren't necessarily (maybe
              ever) part of the teachers' union. Also, my understanding is that all
              teachers in this district pay dues to UTR. I'm not a credentialed teacher so
              this may be wrong but I know that every teacher at the school where I work
              is in the union.
              Cathy

              On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:13 AM, Kevin Rivard <kfrivard@...> wrote:

              >
              > I asked a simple question, or so I thought. Let me ask it in another way.
              > How many teachers in WCCUSD are non-union percentage wise? I will ask my
              > other question again as well, how many teachers are union percentage wise? I
              > do not understand how Norma's response answers those questions. Does anyone
              > have the answer? Let me ask another while I am at it. We have Charter
              > schools in our district. Are those teachers Union or non-union?
              >
              > Kevin
              >
              >
              >
              > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
              > From: normaha@...
              > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:07:57 -0700
              > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The problem is that teaching, like the rest of working for 'school', like
              > most
              > jobs we're permitted, are just that, jobs. People who should teach are
              > people
              > getting together to do things community wants and needs done. Within that
              > consortium are people who want to gain and give what they know and want to
              > know.
              > This is not an age-segregated experience, but an interest one. This is not
              > compulsory - by the state, so we can all come out lock-step into a job.
              > This is us being community together - what we do in our off-time,
              > authenticating
              > our actual selves, instead of submitting to the alienation capitalism
              > requires
              > of us, to do our Owners' work for their profit and power.
              > Don't blame me for the truth.
              > In a reasonable society no one would have to tell someone you're
              > misbehaving go
              > to the Principal's office for discipline.
              > In a reasonable society people would be healing themselves through doing
              > the
              > things that feel good to do. Evaluation would be integral to that -
              > friendly
              > people would say yes that's the way, no that's not the way, and the other
              > person
              > would either agree or offer ideas of why their way has or doesn't have
              > value.
              > Exchanges on-site would be the evaluation. it would not be punitive, and
              > have
              > to do with status.
              > Meanwhile we'd supplement our energy for a while burning those treatises
              > and
              > tracts that say - a 2 year old does this; a 13 year old does that. Those
              > are so
              > wholly presumptuous and distortive as to frighten ANYone.
              >
              > School board candidates everywhere mouth palliatives that are supposed to
              > stand
              > for substance. But they keep telling how they'd do again what doesn't
              > work.
              >
              > Charter schools are like Wal-Marts, totally anti-union.
              > Norma
              > To: WCCUSDtalk@yahoogroups.com From: mtsustak@... Date: Sat, 23 Oct
              > 2010
              > 00:06:46 -0700 Subject: [wccusdtalk] FYI about Jason Freeman school board
              > candidate.
              >
              > Margaret Browne
              > _____
              > Jason S. Freeman grew up in Tennessee, attended Duke University, Durham,
              > North
              > Carolina. He got his MA from Harvard Kennedy School of Government. He was
              > part
              > of the founding team at the IDEA academy, now IDEA Public Schools, an
              > independently managed Charter School system of 22 charter schools in the
              > Rio
              > Grande Valley, in deep South Texas. On the board of directors for IDEA
              > academy
              > is Teach for America, Lone Star State Bank, Morgan Stanley, International
              > Bank
              > of Commerce, etc. IDEA Public Schools is now a public independent charter
              > school
              > district. It will have 8,000 students in 2012.
              >
              > So Jason S. Freeman can say he is devoted to public schools, because this
              > charter district runs on public school money.
              >
              > (95% of charter school teachers are not unionized.)
              >
              > He co-wrote language in the federal "Race to the Top", with Glen Price and
              > Congressman George Miller, about tracking teacher data in order to assess
              > student and teacher progress and accountability. We assume this is the
              > "value
              > added" scheme marketed as "Merit pay", an enormously problematic provision
              > in
              > the "Race to the Top" assault on teacher unions.
              >
              > He presented this information to the UTR Executive board and the UTR
              > Political
              > Action Committee in hopes of an endorsement by UTR.
              >
              > Jason S. Freeman is all about privatizing our school district.
              >
              > "Merit pay" would pit teachers against each other for high achieving
              > students,
              > put even more pressure on teachers and students to achieve high test scores
              > on
              > inauthentic assessments, punish teachers in low scoring schools and
              > classrooms,
              > eventually even firing teachers for consistently low test scores. This
              > "merit
              > pay" scheme is a serious threat to seniority and tenure rights.
              >
              > Teacher unions across the US are fighting against these "value added"
              > "merit
              > pay" provisions because they perceive them as union busting.
              >
              > The UTR Representative Council voted not to endorse Jason Freeman.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Todd Groves
              What do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of the medical class? Doctor. Teaching, as a profession, shares this attribute with medicine. We are
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                What do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of the medical class? Doctor. Teaching, as a profession, shares this attribute with medicine. We are compelled to treat all who meet the minimum bar as adequate. Unfortunately, there is no malpractice recourse in education.

                And, just like our medical system, those socially responsible teachers who serve the least among are the least rewarded. No good deed goes unpunished. Doctors who serve the poor aren't held responsible for higher morbidity rates in those communities. Teachers didn't create the social conditions we face, and shouldn't be punished for them. These are absolutely justifiable concerns.

                Heisenberg's principle, you can't observe something without changing it, has been born out in NCLB. Our test paranoid administrators do everything possible to move tangentially relevant scores, while destroying the bigger purpose of learning. We've rendered a decade of children into brittle thinkers in a time that calls for resilience.

                All this said, our evaluation process for both teachers and administrators needs to change. If you a tenured teacher or permanent administrator, you are presumed to be doing your job well, and the evaluation serves mainly to help you improve it. Evaluations should always start with the question of whether or not you do your job, and is this the right job for you IMHO.

                Tenured teachers choose the form of their evaluation from four options, a classic administrative review/observation and three others; The Portfolio Option, The Critical Friends Option, and The Action Research Option. To learn more about them, read the contract http://is.gd/gibix . Specifically read Appendix J.

                Is our eval scheme working to vet ineffective teachers and administrators? Merit pay won't generally improve instruction, but it will reward those already going the extra mile. Is this a case in itself? Why would merit pay be more erosive on moral than outstanding teacher awards?

                BTW, Jason Freeman hasn't spoken to merit pay in any forum I've attended, public or private. Before you make him the local incarnation of Duncan and Rhee, get your facts straight, or at least ask him. I'm itching to counter all the mistruths in Margaret's post, but don't want to violate the high standards of this list.

                Should we allow candidate to respond to outright distortions, or allow perpetuation of faulty information? Should the job fall to their supporters? Why do we keep this list free of comment from those who know the most? I would love more substance on this list despite our peanut gallery. Respond to me in sidebar if you don't want to put it out there.

                Todd Groves,
                Treasurer, Freeman for School Board 2010







                --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@...> wrote:
                >
                > It's interesting that you think that teaching is like waitressing or selling
                > cars, that teaching is comparable to being pleasant, remembering orders and
                > convincing people that they need things which they don't, that dealing with
                > people buying food which they want or buying cars which they think they want is
                > the same as dealing with people who may not want to be where they are or doing
                > what they are doing (When's recess??) Both of your examples are of professions
                > where the job starts when you arrive and ends when you leave; teaching is not.
                >
                >
                > What you say makes sense in a fantasy world, but in the real world, a poor
                > salesman in a economically prosperous part of town selling to a wealthy
                > clientele will consistently make more than a great salesman in an economically
                > depressed part of town to a poor clientele. That's not a level playing field.
                > If one lot has great automobiles to sell and the other lot has only junkers,
                > the better salesman at the junker lot may make more sales, but the poorer
                > salesman will make more money with the commissions. And if the number of sales
                > is the only criteria that one uses for the effectiveness of a salesman, we may
                > want to deal with the poor salesman. What if the poor salesman has poor results
                > because he refuses to sell junkers to his clients?What if the salesman with
                > high sales doesn't mind making deals that will financially compromise his
                > clients? With your argument, the salesmen that we would want to buy a car from,
                > would leave the profession... and maybe they have. That might be why car
                > salesmen have a sleazy reputation.
                >
                > And the waitress, to make the argument consistent, should be evaluated on how
                > much food she sold. Would you really like to go to a restaurant where the
                > waitress made a commission on how much food she sold? (You really want a triple
                > burger with and extra side! It's really delicious, I just had one this
                > morning!) Your idea of a level playing field is so full of holes, that it's
                > difficult to navigate.
                >
                > And, here's the worst part - GOOD citizens will continue to think that this is
                > okay. Many good teachers are leaving the profession because they understand
                > that merit pay is arbitrary and punitive to the degree that time needed for the
                > social aspects of the classroom are being ignored.
                >
                > http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
                > As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
                > for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@...>
                > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 11:04:38 PM
                > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                >
                >
                > a level playing field?
                >
                > YES.
                >
                > Waitresses get tips based on competence. Some stations are better. Some shifts
                > are better. Some restaurants are better. But a good waitress consistently gets
                > more tips than a bad waitress.
                >
                > Car salesmen get paid commission. Some sides of the lot are better. Some shifts
                > are better. Some dealerships are better. But a good car salesman consistently
                > makes more commission than a bad salesman.
                >
                > Teachers get paid on merit. (meaning INCREASES in scores, not high scores).
                > Some schools are better. Some parents are better. Some principals are better.
                > But a good teacher will consistently improve the scores of their class year over
                > year, thus getting more merit pay.
                >
                > And, here's the best part - BAD teachers will consistently get less pay, and
                > hopefully most of them will leave the profession and find something they are
                > better at. A win for students. A win for the teacher. A win for the profession.
                >
                > That's a pretty level playing field.
                >
                > Keep in mind, merit would only affect a PART of the pay, not all of it.
                >
                > Jim Cowen
                >
                >
                > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Diamel@... <Diamel@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Diamel@... <Diamel@...>
                > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
                >
                > Are we working with a level playing field?
                > Diane
                > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@...>
                > Sender: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:18:34
                > To: <wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>
                > Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                >
                > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne <mtsustak@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > "Merit pay" would... put even more pressure on teachers ...to achieve high test
                > scores ..., punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms, ...
                >
                > I disagree. Merit pay puts pressure to IMPROVE test scores, and punishes
                > teachers who FAIL to help their students IMPROVE. A proper merit pay program
                > would reward a teacher who's extreme low scoring students improved, and punish a
                > teacher who's extreme high scoring students dropped in scores.
                >
                >
                > In fact, since improving low scores is more achievable than maintaining high
                > scores, a proper merit pay program would encourage the best teachers to WANT to
                > teach at low scoring schools; something the current system discourages.
                >
                > Good teachers should not be afraid of a merit pay system. Only low performing
                > teachers, the ones that must rely on tenure and unions as the only reason they
                > can keep their jobs, should fear such a system.
                >
                > Sincerely
                > the spouse of a WCCUSD teacher,
                > Jim Cowen
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne
                Charter schools teachers are not in the union. Cathy is correct in that all teachers in WCCUSD pay union cues; however not all belong to CTA/UTR. Such teachers
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Charter schools teachers are not in the union. Cathy is correct in that all
                  teachers in WCCUSD pay union cues; however not all belong to CTA/UTR. Such
                  teachers who pay dues but are not union members, are agency fee payers who
                  do not vote in UTR elections. When I was still actively teaching, I
                  conducted UTR elections at my school, Kennedy High. I and all other teachers
                  who conducted elections received from the UTR office a list of agency fee
                  payers who were not eligible to vote in the elections. This list consisted
                  of one 8x10 sheet of paper with a list of names, as I recall about 20 for
                  the entire district. The agency fee payer list was for all of the teachers
                  in the district, not just at my school. Based on my experience, I think that
                  almost all teachers in the district are voting UTR members. Agency fee
                  payers do not pay full union dues. I hope that this info helps.

                  Margaret Browne



                  From: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Cathy Travlos
                  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:26 AM
                  To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk]





                  My understanding is that charter school teachers aren't necessarily (maybe
                  ever) part of the teachers' union. Also, my understanding is that all
                  teachers in this district pay dues to UTR. I'm not a credentialed teacher so
                  this may be wrong but I know that every teacher at the school where I work
                  is in the union.
                  Cathy

                  On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:13 AM, Kevin Rivard <kfrivard@...
                  <mailto:kfrivard%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

                  >
                  > I asked a simple question, or so I thought. Let me ask it in another way.
                  > How many teachers in WCCUSD are non-union percentage wise? I will ask my
                  > other question again as well, how many teachers are union percentage wise?
                  I
                  > do not understand how Norma's response answers those questions. Does
                  anyone
                  > have the answer? Let me ask another while I am at it. We have Charter
                  > schools in our district. Are those teachers Union or non-union?
                  >
                  > Kevin
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > From: normaha@... <mailto:normaha%40pacbell.net>
                  > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:07:57 -0700
                  > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The problem is that teaching, like the rest of working for 'school', like
                  > most
                  > jobs we're permitted, are just that, jobs. People who should teach are
                  > people
                  > getting together to do things community wants and needs done. Within that
                  > consortium are people who want to gain and give what they know and want to
                  > know.
                  > This is not an age-segregated experience, but an interest one. This is not
                  > compulsory - by the state, so we can all come out lock-step into a job.
                  > This is us being community together - what we do in our off-time,
                  > authenticating
                  > our actual selves, instead of submitting to the alienation capitalism
                  > requires
                  > of us, to do our Owners' work for their profit and power.
                  > Don't blame me for the truth.
                  > In a reasonable society no one would have to tell someone you're
                  > misbehaving go
                  > to the Principal's office for discipline.
                  > In a reasonable society people would be healing themselves through doing
                  > the
                  > things that feel good to do. Evaluation would be integral to that -
                  > friendly
                  > people would say yes that's the way, no that's not the way, and the other
                  > person
                  > would either agree or offer ideas of why their way has or doesn't have
                  > value.
                  > Exchanges on-site would be the evaluation. it would not be punitive, and
                  > have
                  > to do with status.
                  > Meanwhile we'd supplement our energy for a while burning those treatises
                  > and
                  > tracts that say - a 2 year old does this; a 13 year old does that. Those
                  > are so
                  > wholly presumptuous and distortive as to frighten ANYone.
                  >
                  > School board candidates everywhere mouth palliatives that are supposed to
                  > stand
                  > for substance. But they keep telling how they'd do again what doesn't
                  > work.
                  >
                  > Charter schools are like Wal-Marts, totally anti-union.
                  > Norma
                  > To: WCCUSDtalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:WCCUSDtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
                  From: mtsustak@... <mailto:mtsustak%40sonic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Oct
                  > 2010
                  > 00:06:46 -0700 Subject: [wccusdtalk] FYI about Jason Freeman school board
                  > candidate.
                  >
                  > Margaret Browne
                  > _____
                  > Jason S. Freeman grew up in Tennessee, attended Duke University, Durham,
                  > North
                  > Carolina. He got his MA from Harvard Kennedy School of Government. He was
                  > part
                  > of the founding team at the IDEA academy, now IDEA Public Schools, an
                  > independently managed Charter School system of 22 charter schools in the
                  > Rio
                  > Grande Valley, in deep South Texas. On the board of directors for IDEA
                  > academy
                  > is Teach for America, Lone Star State Bank, Morgan Stanley, International
                  > Bank
                  > of Commerce, etc. IDEA Public Schools is now a public independent charter
                  > school
                  > district. It will have 8,000 students in 2012.
                  >
                  > So Jason S. Freeman can say he is devoted to public schools, because this
                  > charter district runs on public school money.
                  >
                  > (95% of charter school teachers are not unionized.)
                  >
                  > He co-wrote language in the federal "Race to the Top", with Glen Price and
                  > Congressman George Miller, about tracking teacher data in order to assess
                  > student and teacher progress and accountability. We assume this is the
                  > "value
                  > added" scheme marketed as "Merit pay", an enormously problematic provision
                  > in
                  > the "Race to the Top" assault on teacher unions.
                  >
                  > He presented this information to the UTR Executive board and the UTR
                  > Political
                  > Action Committee in hopes of an endorsement by UTR.
                  >
                  > Jason S. Freeman is all about privatizing our school district.
                  >
                  > "Merit pay" would pit teachers against each other for high achieving
                  > students,
                  > put even more pressure on teachers and students to achieve high test
                  scores
                  > on
                  > inauthentic assessments, punish teachers in low scoring schools and
                  > classrooms,
                  > eventually even firing teachers for consistently low test scores. This
                  > "merit
                  > pay" scheme is a serious threat to seniority and tenure rights.
                  >
                  > Teacher unions across the US are fighting against these "value added"
                  > "merit
                  > pay" provisions because they perceive them as union busting.
                  >
                  > The UTR Representative Council voted not to endorse Jason Freeman.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Norma J F Harrison
                  It didn t.  It doesn t seem to have been directed at your question but at another topic. Did anyone - answer the question?  If not, why not, do you
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 25, 2010
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                    It didn't. 
                    It doesn't seem to have been directed at your question but at another topic.
                    Did anyone - answer the question?  If not, why not, do you think....?
                    Norma

                    ________________________________
                    From: Kevin Rivard kfrivard@... To: h h wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Mon, October 25, 2010 2:13:18 AM  Subject: RE: [wccusdtalk]

                    I asked a simple question, or so I thought. Let me ask it in another way. How
                    many teachers in WCCUSD are non-union percentage wise? I will ask my other
                    question again as well, how many teachers are union percentage wise? I do not
                    understand how Norma's response answers those questions. Does anyone have the
                    answer? Let me ask another while I am at it. We have Charter schools in our
                    district. Are those teachers Union or non-union?


                    Kevin

                    To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com From: normaha@...  Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010
                    22:07:57 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk]

                    The problem is that teaching, like the rest of working for 'school', like most
                    jobs we're permitted, are just that, jobs.  People who should teach are people
                    getting together to do things community wants and needs done.  Within that
                    consortium are people who want to gain and give what they know and want to know.
                    This is not an age-segregated experience, but an interest one.  This is not
                    compulsory - by the state, so we can all come out lock-step into a job.
                    This is us being community together - what we do in our off-time, authenticating

                    our actual selves, instead of submitting to the alienation capitalism requires
                    of us, to do our Owners' work for their profit and power.
                    Don't blame me for the truth.
                    In a reasonable society no one would have to tell someone you're misbehaving go
                    to the Principal's office for discipline.
                    In a reasonable society people would be healing themselves through doing the
                    things that feel good to do.  Evaluation would be integral to that - friendly
                    people would say yes that's the way, no that's not the way, and the other person

                    would either agree or offer ideas of why their way has or doesn't have value. 
                    Exchanges on-site would be the evaluation.  it would not be punitive, and have
                    to do with status.
                    Meanwhile we'd supplement our energy for a while burning those treatises and
                    tracts that say - a 2 year old does this; a 13 year old does that.  Those are so

                    wholly presumptuous and distortive as to frighten ANYone.

                    School board candidates everywhere mouth palliatives that are supposed to stand
                    for substance.  But they keep telling how they'd do again what doesn't work.

                    Charter schools are like Wal-Marts, totally anti-union.
                    Norma
                    To: WCCUSDtalk@yahoogroups.com From: mtsustak@... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010
                    00:06:46 -0700  Subject: [wccusdtalk] FYI about Jason Freeman school board
                    candidate.

                    Margaret Browne
                    _____
                    Jason S. Freeman grew up in Tennessee, attended Duke University, Durham, North
                    .....

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ann
                    Actually, if the mission of this group is to be educated about matters affecting our school district, and that allowed UTR to post their support or rejection
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 26, 2010
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                      Actually, if the mission of this group is to be educated about matters affecting our school district, and that allowed UTR to post their support or rejection of any school board candidate, I wonder why you or Jason can't post at least a rebuttal.

                      If not, perhaps someone can just answer my questions posted in response to UTR's post - which is not in support of either Jason or UTR. I just want to know so I know how to vote.

                      The issue is even if the moderator were to pull the UTR post regarding Jason now, that leaves correction unstated for those of us that did read the first UTR post.

                      Could the moderator please comment on whether it is appropriate to post responses to another's post about school board candidate?


                      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Groves" <tag1022@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of the medical class? Doctor. Teaching, as a profession, shares this attribute with medicine. We are compelled to treat all who meet the minimum bar as adequate. Unfortunately, there is no malpractice recourse in education.
                      >
                      > And, just like our medical system, those socially responsible teachers who serve the least among are the least rewarded. No good deed goes unpunished. Doctors who serve the poor aren't held responsible for higher morbidity rates in those communities. Teachers didn't create the social conditions we face, and shouldn't be punished for them. These are absolutely justifiable concerns.
                      >
                      > Heisenberg's principle, you can't observe something without changing it, has been born out in NCLB. Our test paranoid administrators do everything possible to move tangentially relevant scores, while destroying the bigger purpose of learning. We've rendered a decade of children into brittle thinkers in a time that calls for resilience.
                      >
                      > All this said, our evaluation process for both teachers and administrators needs to change. If you a tenured teacher or permanent administrator, you are presumed to be doing your job well, and the evaluation serves mainly to help you improve it. Evaluations should always start with the question of whether or not you do your job, and is this the right job for you IMHO.
                      >
                      > Tenured teachers choose the form of their evaluation from four options, a classic administrative review/observation and three others; The Portfolio Option, The Critical Friends Option, and The Action Research Option. To learn more about them, read the contract http://is.gd/gibix . Specifically read Appendix J.
                      >
                      > Is our eval scheme working to vet ineffective teachers and administrators? Merit pay won't generally improve instruction, but it will reward those already going the extra mile. Is this a case in itself? Why would merit pay be more erosive on moral than outstanding teacher awards?
                      >
                      > BTW, Jason Freeman hasn't spoken to merit pay in any forum I've attended, public or private. Before you make him the local incarnation of Duncan and Rhee, get your facts straight, or at least ask him. I'm itching to counter all the mistruths in Margaret's post, but don't want to violate the high standards of this list.
                      >
                      > Should we allow candidate to respond to outright distortions, or allow perpetuation of faulty information? Should the job fall to their supporters? Why do we keep this list free of comment from those who know the most? I would love more substance on this list despite our peanut gallery. Respond to me in sidebar if you don't want to put it out there.
                      >
                      > Todd Groves,
                      > Treasurer, Freeman for School Board 2010
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > It's interesting that you think that teaching is like waitressing or selling
                      > > cars, that teaching is comparable to being pleasant, remembering orders and
                      > > convincing people that they need things which they don't, that dealing with
                      > > people buying food which they want or buying cars which they think they want is
                      > > the same as dealing with people who may not want to be where they are or doing
                      > > what they are doing (When's recess??) Both of your examples are of professions
                      > > where the job starts when you arrive and ends when you leave; teaching is not.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > What you say makes sense in a fantasy world, but in the real world, a poor
                      > > salesman in a economically prosperous part of town selling to a wealthy
                      > > clientele will consistently make more than a great salesman in an economically
                      > > depressed part of town to a poor clientele. That's not a level playing field.
                      > > If one lot has great automobiles to sell and the other lot has only junkers,
                      > > the better salesman at the junker lot may make more sales, but the poorer
                      > > salesman will make more money with the commissions. And if the number of sales
                      > > is the only criteria that one uses for the effectiveness of a salesman, we may
                      > > want to deal with the poor salesman. What if the poor salesman has poor results
                      > > because he refuses to sell junkers to his clients?What if the salesman with
                      > > high sales doesn't mind making deals that will financially compromise his
                      > > clients? With your argument, the salesmen that we would want to buy a car from,
                      > > would leave the profession... and maybe they have. That might be why car
                      > > salesmen have a sleazy reputation.
                      > >
                      > > And the waitress, to make the argument consistent, should be evaluated on how
                      > > much food she sold. Would you really like to go to a restaurant where the
                      > > waitress made a commission on how much food she sold? (You really want a triple
                      > > burger with and extra side! It's really delicious, I just had one this
                      > > morning!) Your idea of a level playing field is so full of holes, that it's
                      > > difficult to navigate.
                      > >
                      > > And, here's the worst part - GOOD citizens will continue to think that this is
                      > > okay. Many good teachers are leaving the profession because they understand
                      > > that merit pay is arbitrary and punitive to the degree that time needed for the
                      > > social aspects of the classroom are being ignored.
                      > >
                      > > http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
                      > > As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
                      > > for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@>
                      > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 11:04:38 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > a level playing field?
                      > >
                      > > YES.
                      > >
                      > > Waitresses get tips based on competence. Some stations are better. Some shifts
                      > > are better. Some restaurants are better. But a good waitress consistently gets
                      > > more tips than a bad waitress.
                      > >
                      > > Car salesmen get paid commission. Some sides of the lot are better. Some shifts
                      > > are better. Some dealerships are better. But a good car salesman consistently
                      > > makes more commission than a bad salesman.
                      > >
                      > > Teachers get paid on merit. (meaning INCREASES in scores, not high scores).
                      > > Some schools are better. Some parents are better. Some principals are better.
                      > > But a good teacher will consistently improve the scores of their class year over
                      > > year, thus getting more merit pay.
                      > >
                      > > And, here's the best part - BAD teachers will consistently get less pay, and
                      > > hopefully most of them will leave the profession and find something they are
                      > > better at. A win for students. A win for the teacher. A win for the profession.
                      > >
                      > > That's a pretty level playing field.
                      > >
                      > > Keep in mind, merit would only affect a PART of the pay, not all of it.
                      > >
                      > > Jim Cowen
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Diamel@ <Diamel@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: Diamel@ <Diamel@>
                      > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                      > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 7:21 PM
                      > >
                      > > Are we working with a level playing field?
                      > > Diane
                      > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Jim Cowen <jimcowen@>
                      > > Sender: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:18:34
                      > > To: <wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Reply-To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Merit pay
                      > >
                      > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Tony Sustak & Margaret G. Browne <mtsustak@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "Merit pay" would... put even more pressure on teachers ...to achieve high test
                      > > scores ..., punish teachers in low scoring schools and classrooms, ...
                      > >
                      > > I disagree. Merit pay puts pressure to IMPROVE test scores, and punishes
                      > > teachers who FAIL to help their students IMPROVE. A proper merit pay program
                      > > would reward a teacher who's extreme low scoring students improved, and punish a
                      > > teacher who's extreme high scoring students dropped in scores.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > In fact, since improving low scores is more achievable than maintaining high
                      > > scores, a proper merit pay program would encourage the best teachers to WANT to
                      > > teach at low scoring schools; something the current system discourages.
                      > >
                      > > Good teachers should not be afraid of a merit pay system. Only low performing
                      > > teachers, the ones that must rely on tenure and unions as the only reason they
                      > > can keep their jobs, should fear such a system.
                      > >
                      > > Sincerely
                      > > the spouse of a WCCUSD teacher,
                      > > Jim Cowen
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
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