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Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

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  • Eduardo Martinez
    This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom. More and more responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
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      This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom. More and more
      responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is
      physically possible. Then certain individuals try to make others think that
      teachers have it easy.
      http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
      As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
      for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison




      ________________________________
      From: c slamon <cslamon@...>
      To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 10:49:18 AM
      Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

      thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn't get your point the first time.
      I have a better understanding now. I don't think our district is top
      heavy. In fact I think we are starting to see more things fall through the
      cracks because of the way jobs have been combined etc. That is also what
      happens in the business world too. Sometimes the work load is so heavy that
      instead of doing the perfect work one is capable of, you strive to just get
      it all done adequately. That happens to me all the time.

      On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see
      > differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see
      > in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators
      > earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps,
      > creating catalogs or websites.
      >
      > Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure
      > it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley
      > salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the
      > poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money
      > in other careers. It's not about the money.
      >
      > My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has
      > anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have
      > been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court
      > implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants
      > for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our
      > administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded
      > similar results. The report describes instructional management as very
      > dysfunctional.
      >
      > We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we
      > getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.
      >
      > Todd Groves
      >
      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c slamon
      > <cslamon@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
      > > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
      > > sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors
      > as
      > > well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
      > > there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical,
      > computers/technology
      > > think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and
      > yes
      > > Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
      > > teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach
      > kindergarten.
      > > That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
      > > handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
      > > situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
      > > many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there
      > are
      > > always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do
      > nothing.
      > > I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.
      > >
      > >
      > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
      > > > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are
      > overpaid.
      > > > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid
      > employee
      > > > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
      > > >
      > > > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the
      > same
      > > > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have
      > increased
      > > > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
      > > > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
      > > > administrative behavior and priorities.
      > > >
      > > > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
      > > > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine
      > and
      > > > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result
      > that
      > > > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
      > > >
      > > > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples
      > and
      > > > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a
      > mountain
      > > > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
      > > > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
      > > > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
      > > >
      > > > Todd Groves
      > > >
      > > > Todd Groves
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      ><wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>,
      >
      > > > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
      > > > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only
      > one
      > > > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
      > > > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      ><wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>, c
      >
      > > > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had
      > time
      > > > to
      > > > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105
      > which
      > > > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland
      > are
      > > > near
      > > > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
      > > > districts
      > > > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And
      > there
      > > > is
      > > > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
      > > > guess I
      > > > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most
      > financially
      > > > because
      > > > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap
      > the
      > > > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is
      > adding
      > > > to
      > > > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
      > > > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
      > > > benefits
      > > > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it.
      > Our
      > > > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
      > > > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to
      > many
      > > > things
      > > > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are
      > cutting or
      > > > > > doing away with entirely.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Norma J F Harrison
      ...arguing about (talking about , evaluating , agreeing, disagreeing) arguing about comparative value of a person s work fits into the capitalist system, which
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        ...arguing about (talking about , evaluating , agreeing, disagreeing) arguing
        about comparative value of a person's work fits into the capitalist system,
        which with much evidence, is what is murdering us all including Earth as we knew
        it.
        Administration, from the local small business to the running of the country is
        all about separation: who shall survive; who will live with so much materially
        they can never touch it all in their lifetimes; who shall starve to death or die
        of lack of health care; who shall be bombed; what plants and other animals will
        be destroyed in capitalism's march across the world.
        These are all administered by our Owners and their electeds.
        Don't abet that - at least, not by your ideas.  Think differently.  Hate the
        horror makers.  That's a start - instead of accepting them.
        Norma

        ________________________________

        From: Eduardo Martinez ezedmartin@... To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent:
        Tue, August 17, 2010 12:38:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

        This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom.  More and more
        responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is

        physically possible.  Then certain individuals try to make others think that
        teachers have it easy.
        http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
        As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
        for bringing the many under the domination of the few.  - James Madison
        ________________________________
        From: c slamon <cslamon@...>    To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue,
        August 17, 2010 10:49:18 AM Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy
        management?

        thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn't get your point the first time.
        I have a better understanding now.  I don't think our district is top
        heavy.  In fact I think we are starting to see more things fall through the
        cracks because of the way jobs have been combined etc.  That is also what
        happens in the business world too.  Sometimes the work load is so heavy that
        instead of doing the perfect work one is capable of, you strive to just get
        it all done adequately.  That happens to me all the time.

        On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

        >>> Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see
        > differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see
        > in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators
        > earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps,
        > creating catalogs or websites.
        >
        > Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure
        > it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley
        > salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the
        > poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money
        > in other careers. It's not about the money.
        >
        > My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has
        > anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have
        > been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court
        > implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants
        > for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our
        > administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded
        > similar results. The report describes instructional management as very
        > dysfunctional.
        >
        > We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we
        > getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.
        >
        > Todd Groves
        >
        > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c slamon
        > <cslamon@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
        > > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in
        >many......

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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