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Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

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  • Todd Groves
    Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are overpaid. Harter s
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 16, 2010
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      Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are overpaid. Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid employee (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.

      The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the same time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have increased over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects administrative behavior and priorities.

      Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine and Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result that didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.

      Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples and we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a mountain of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost certainly. Countless other examples must exist.

      Todd Groves

      Todd Groves







      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, "bedwellr" <bedwellr@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only one real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
      >
      >
      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, c slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had time to
      > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105 which
      > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland are near
      > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback districts
      > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And there is
      > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I guess I
      > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most financially because
      > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap the
      > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is adding to
      > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
      > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable benefits
      > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it. Our
      > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
      > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to many things
      > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are cutting or
      > > doing away with entirely.
      > >
      > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:07 AM, C. Andrew Walters <
      > > candrewwalters@> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I don't think the argument is that we don't need any highly trained
      > > > managers running a district this size, nor that no one should make high
      > > > salaries. But too much overhead can rob any organization of its vitality,
      > > > and a lot of people are noticing that the school districts struggling the
      > > > most financially and academically spend very large amounts on overhead.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1911-calif-school-spending-soared-on-administrators
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > http://www.calchamber.com/PressReleases/Documents/Pepperdine_Education_Study.pdf
      > > >
      > > > As a parent I'm frequently asked to bring in copy paper, paper towels, and
      > > > a laundry list of other things that the classroom will not have if the
      > > > parents don't chip in. The sense that things are unbalanced is pretty keen.
      > > >
      > > > Andrew
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • c slamon
      Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don t exist in the private sector do exist, they just don t get reported. It exists in many sectors of
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 16, 2010
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        Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
        private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
        sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors as
        well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
        there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical, computers/technology
        think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and yes
        Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
        teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach kindergarten.
        That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
        handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
        situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
        many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there are
        always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do nothing.
        I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.


        On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
        > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are overpaid.
        > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid employee
        > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
        >
        > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the same
        > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have increased
        > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
        > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
        > administrative behavior and priorities.
        >
        > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
        > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine and
        > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result that
        > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
        >
        > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples and
        > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a mountain
        > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
        > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
        > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
        >
        > Todd Groves
        >
        > Todd Groves
        >
        >
        > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
        > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only one
        > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
        > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c
        > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had time
        > to
        > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105 which
        > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland are
        > near
        > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
        > districts
        > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And there
        > is
        > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
        > guess I
        > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most financially
        > because
        > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap the
        > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is adding
        > to
        > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
        > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
        > benefits
        > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it. Our
        > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
        > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to many
        > things
        > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are cutting or
        > > > doing away with entirely.
        > > >
        > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:07 AM, C. Andrew Walters <
        > > > candrewwalters@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't think the argument is that we don't need any highly trained
        > > > > managers running a district this size, nor that no one should make
        > high
        > > > > salaries. But too much overhead can rob any organization of its
        > vitality,
        > > > > and a lot of people are noticing that the school districts struggling
        > the
        > > > > most financially and academically spend very large amounts on
        > overhead.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1911-calif-school-spending-soared-on-administrators
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > http://www.calchamber.com/PressReleases/Documents/Pepperdine_Education_Study.pdf
        > > > >
        > > > > As a parent I'm frequently asked to bring in copy paper, paper
        > towels, and
        > > > > a laundry list of other things that the classroom will not have if
        > the
        > > > > parents don't chip in. The sense that things are unbalanced is pretty
        > keen.
        > > > >
        > > > > Andrew
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Norma J F Harrison
        This is not your church or school, which teach us we must live minimally because we don t deserve more.  While we know very well that our level of comfort -
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 16, 2010
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          This is not your church or school, which teach us we must live minimally because
          we don't deserve more.  While we know very well that our level of comfort -
          those of us who have it, but must scrimp here and there over time and money -
          our level of comfort is well on its way to being more and more limited because
          of the reducing to ending availability of the materials to continue as has been
          being done.
          Meanwhile, make no mistake , you and I deserve every good thing.  We deserve to
          live as well as The Rich.  No one should be permitted to accumulate ownership as
          the The Rich do. But we all deserve the security suggested to belong to The Rich
          - the security, the sufficiency, the enjoyment, the guarantee of rewards, the
          fruits of our labors, to whatever degree we labor, even if we do not 'work'.

          There should not be failure of performance of any aspect of living in our
          communities.  People should be cooperating to make all living pleasant,
          meaningful, productive, easy, comfortable.  The standards set by our capitalist
          world must be eradicated.  They are not about living fairly, conserving and
          distributing the pleasures of life, of which work is integral.  Work can be good
          instead of hated - all work.

          Enjoy this:
          "It is not generally appreciated that the fossil discoveries of the past century
          have confirmed the insights of Marx and Engels that labor constitutes the
          essential feature of humanity. "First labour, after it and then with it speech –
          these were the two most essential stimuli under the influence of which the brain
          of the ape gradually changed into that of man..."  

          History is the record of our alienation from our nature. 
          Our desire is to regain the nature that puts work in an integral place to our
          lives, rather than in the place it has now, service to enriching our few Owners.
          Work is to be pleasant, done at our will, not the will of profiteers."  Engels
          and Ruyle.
           
          The revolution will include removing privilege connected with work.  We'll just
          do what we like and need.  Building the struggle for socialism will change us to
          become fit to live this way, 180 degrees opposite our present and denigrating
          standards.
           
          Norma

          ________________________________
          From: c slamon cslamon@... To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon,
          August 16, 2010 8:02:56 PM Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy
          management?

          Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
          private sector do exist, they just don't get reported.  It exists in many
          sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors as
          well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller).  I'm sure
          there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical, computers/technology
          think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs).  Yes, some teachers deserve more money and yes
          Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
          teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach kindergarten.
          That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
          handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
          situation today.  The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
          many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there are
          always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do nothing.
          I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.


          On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
          > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are
          >overpaid......

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Maureen Meehan Toms
          Is there is difference in the hours required to work for teachers vs administrators? Do administrators take the summer off? I am aware that certain evening
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
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            Is there is difference in the hours required to work for teachers vs administrators? Do administrators take the summer off?

            I am aware that certain evening events, such as back to school night are built into the teachers contract. Do administrators get overtime for attending evening meetings or is just included in the salary?

            Maureen


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "c slamon" <cslamon@...>
            To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:02:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

            Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
            private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
            sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors as
            well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
            there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical, computers/technology
            think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and yes
            Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
            teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach kindergarten.
            That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
            handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
            situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
            many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there are
            always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do nothing.
            I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.


            On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
            > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are overpaid.
            > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid employee
            > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
            >
            > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the same
            > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have increased
            > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
            > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
            > administrative behavior and priorities.
            >
            > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
            > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine and
            > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result that
            > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
            >
            > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples and
            > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a mountain
            > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
            > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
            > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
            >
            > Todd Groves
            >
            > Todd Groves
            >
            >
            > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
            > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only one
            > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
            > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c
            > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had time
            > to
            > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105 which
            > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland are
            > near
            > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
            > districts
            > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And there
            > is
            > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
            > guess I
            > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most financially
            > because
            > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap the
            > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is adding
            > to
            > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
            > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
            > benefits
            > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it. Our
            > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
            > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to many
            > things
            > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are cutting or
            > > > doing away with entirely.
            > > >
            > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:07 AM, C. Andrew Walters <
            > > > candrewwalters@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I don't think the argument is that we don't need any highly trained
            > > > > managers running a district this size, nor that no one should make
            > high
            > > > > salaries. But too much overhead can rob any organization of its
            > vitality,
            > > > > and a lot of people are noticing that the school districts struggling
            > the
            > > > > most financially and academically spend very large amounts on
            > overhead.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1911-calif-school-spending-soared-on-administrators
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > http://www.calchamber.com/PressReleases/Documents/Pepperdine_Education_Study.pdf
            > > > >
            > > > > As a parent I'm frequently asked to bring in copy paper, paper
            > towels, and
            > > > > a laundry list of other things that the classroom will not have if
            > the
            > > > > parents don't chip in. The sense that things are unbalanced is pretty
            > keen.
            > > > >
            > > > > Andrew
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Todd Groves
            Yes, Chris. That s the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see in the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
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              Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps, creating catalogs or websites.

              Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money in other careers. It's not about the money.

              My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded similar results. The report describes instructional management as very dysfunctional.

              We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.

              Todd Groves



              --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, c slamon <cslamon@...> wrote:
              >
              > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
              > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
              > sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors as
              > well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
              > there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical, computers/technology
              > think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and yes
              > Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
              > teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach kindergarten.
              > That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
              > handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
              > situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
              > many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there are
              > always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do nothing.
              > I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.
              >
              >
              > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
              > > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are overpaid.
              > > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid employee
              > > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
              > >
              > > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the same
              > > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have increased
              > > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
              > > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
              > > administrative behavior and priorities.
              > >
              > > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
              > > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine and
              > > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result that
              > > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
              > >
              > > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples and
              > > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a mountain
              > > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
              > > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
              > > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
              > >
              > > Todd Groves
              > >
              > > Todd Groves
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
              > > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only one
              > > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
              > > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c
              > > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had time
              > > to
              > > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105 which
              > > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland are
              > > near
              > > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
              > > districts
              > > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And there
              > > is
              > > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
              > > guess I
              > > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most financially
              > > because
              > > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap the
              > > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is adding
              > > to
              > > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
              > > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
              > > benefits
              > > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it. Our
              > > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
              > > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to many
              > > things
              > > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are cutting or
              > > > > doing away with entirely.
              > > > >
              > > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:07 AM, C. Andrew Walters <
              > > > > candrewwalters@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I don't think the argument is that we don't need any highly trained
              > > > > > managers running a district this size, nor that no one should make
              > > high
              > > > > > salaries. But too much overhead can rob any organization of its
              > > vitality,
              > > > > > and a lot of people are noticing that the school districts struggling
              > > the
              > > > > > most financially and academically spend very large amounts on
              > > overhead.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1911-calif-school-spending-soared-on-administrators
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > http://www.calchamber.com/PressReleases/Documents/Pepperdine_Education_Study.pdf
              > > > > >
              > > > > > As a parent I'm frequently asked to bring in copy paper, paper
              > > towels, and
              > > > > > a laundry list of other things that the classroom will not have if
              > > the
              > > > > > parents don't chip in. The sense that things are unbalanced is pretty
              > > keen.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Andrew
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • c slamon
              thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn t get your point the first time. I have a better understanding now. I don t think our district is top heavy. In
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn't get your point the first time.
                I have a better understanding now. I don't think our district is top
                heavy. In fact I think we are starting to see more things fall through the
                cracks because of the way jobs have been combined etc. That is also what
                happens in the business world too. Sometimes the work load is so heavy that
                instead of doing the perfect work one is capable of, you strive to just get
                it all done adequately. That happens to me all the time.

                On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see
                > differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see
                > in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators
                > earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps,
                > creating catalogs or websites.
                >
                > Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure
                > it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley
                > salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the
                > poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money
                > in other careers. It's not about the money.
                >
                > My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has
                > anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have
                > been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court
                > implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants
                > for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our
                > administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded
                > similar results. The report describes instructional management as very
                > dysfunctional.
                >
                > We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we
                > getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.
                >
                > Todd Groves
                >
                > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c slamon
                > <cslamon@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
                > > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
                > > sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors
                > as
                > > well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
                > > there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical,
                > computers/technology
                > > think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and
                > yes
                > > Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
                > > teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach
                > kindergarten.
                > > That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
                > > handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
                > > situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
                > > many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there
                > are
                > > always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do
                > nothing.
                > > I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.
                > >
                > >
                > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
                > > > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are
                > overpaid.
                > > > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid
                > employee
                > > > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
                > > >
                > > > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the
                > same
                > > > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have
                > increased
                > > > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
                > > > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
                > > > administrative behavior and priorities.
                > > >
                > > > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
                > > > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine
                > and
                > > > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result
                > that
                > > > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
                > > >
                > > > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples
                > and
                > > > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a
                > mountain
                > > > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
                > > > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
                > > > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
                > > >
                > > > Todd Groves
                > > >
                > > > Todd Groves
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
                > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                >
                > > > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
                > > > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only
                > one
                > > > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
                > > > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
                > 40yahoogroups.com>, c
                >
                > > > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had
                > time
                > > > to
                > > > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105
                > which
                > > > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland
                > are
                > > > near
                > > > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
                > > > districts
                > > > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And
                > there
                > > > is
                > > > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
                > > > guess I
                > > > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most
                > financially
                > > > because
                > > > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap
                > the
                > > > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is
                > adding
                > > > to
                > > > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
                > > > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
                > > > benefits
                > > > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it.
                > Our
                > > > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
                > > > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to
                > many
                > > > things
                > > > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are
                > cutting or
                > > > > > doing away with entirely.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 9:07 AM, C. Andrew Walters <
                > > > > > candrewwalters@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I don't think the argument is that we don't need any highly
                > trained
                > > > > > > managers running a district this size, nor that no one should
                > make
                > > > high
                > > > > > > salaries. But too much overhead can rob any organization of its
                > > > vitality,
                > > > > > > and a lot of people are noticing that the school districts
                > struggling
                > > > the
                > > > > > > most financially and academically spend very large amounts on
                > > > overhead.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > >
                > http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1911-calif-school-spending-soared-on-administrators
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > >
                > http://www.calchamber.com/PressReleases/Documents/Pepperdine_Education_Study.pdf
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > As a parent I'm frequently asked to bring in copy paper, paper
                > > > towels, and
                > > > > > > a laundry list of other things that the classroom will not have
                > if
                > > > the
                > > > > > > parents don't chip in. The sense that things are unbalanced is
                > pretty
                > > > keen.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Andrew
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eduardo Martinez
                This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom. More and more responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom. More and more
                  responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is
                  physically possible. Then certain individuals try to make others think that
                  teachers have it easy.
                  http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
                  As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
                  for bringing the many under the domination of the few. - James Madison




                  ________________________________
                  From: c slamon <cslamon@...>
                  To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 10:49:18 AM
                  Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

                  thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn't get your point the first time.
                  I have a better understanding now. I don't think our district is top
                  heavy. In fact I think we are starting to see more things fall through the
                  cracks because of the way jobs have been combined etc. That is also what
                  happens in the business world too. Sometimes the work load is so heavy that
                  instead of doing the perfect work one is capable of, you strive to just get
                  it all done adequately. That happens to me all the time.

                  On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see
                  > differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see
                  > in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators
                  > earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps,
                  > creating catalogs or websites.
                  >
                  > Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure
                  > it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley
                  > salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the
                  > poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money
                  > in other careers. It's not about the money.
                  >
                  > My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has
                  > anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have
                  > been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court
                  > implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants
                  > for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our
                  > administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded
                  > similar results. The report describes instructional management as very
                  > dysfunctional.
                  >
                  > We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we
                  > getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.
                  >
                  > Todd Groves
                  >
                  > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c slamon
                  > <cslamon@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
                  > > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in many
                  > > sectors of private industry, in the legal sector and in banking sectors
                  > as
                  > > well (think wall street fat cats vs the lowly paid bank teller). I'm sure
                  > > there are other examples too (medicine, pharmacuetical,
                  > computers/technology
                  > > think Bill Gates/Steve Jobs). Yes, some teachers deserve more money and
                  > yes
                  > > Harter's salary is too high but we also have some of our highest paid
                  > > teachers who only are required to work a half a day to teach
                  > kindergarten.
                  > > That too is not fair to the teachers in the secondary schools who must
                  > > handle hundreds of students per semester but that is the reality of our
                  > > situation today. The problems are complex and I must admit I don't have
                  > > many answers but we have to attempt to keep moving forward because there
                  > are
                  > > always students in the pipeline that will be affected if we just do
                  > nothing.
                  > > I appreciate your efforts and suggestions too.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Given teacher salaries vs. cost of living in the Bay Area, it would be
                  > > > difficult to argue teachers, or any district other employees, are
                  > overpaid.
                  > > > Harter's salary is likely close to 10x the district's lowest paid
                  > employee
                  > > > (correct me if I'm wrong). You won't see this in the private sector.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Pepperdine report shows administrative costs rose over roughly the
                  > same
                  > > > time frame NCLB was being implemented. Administrative burdens have
                  > increased
                  > > > over this time period, and new roles, like Accountability offices, were
                  > > > expanded. NCLB asked much from districts and significantly effects
                  > > > administrative behavior and priorities.
                  > > >
                  > > > Given the analytical period chosen by the authors, the result isn't
                  > > > surprising. Also, given the ideological perspective of both Pepperdine
                  > and
                  > > > Investor's Business Daily, it would be surprising to see any result
                  > that
                  > > > didn't reflect poorly on public schools as currently structured.
                  > > >
                  > > > Do we have administrative bloat? Probably. Point out specific examples
                  > and
                  > > > we may get somewhere. Across the district, we are about to move a
                  > mountain
                  > > > of paper in Site Plans that few will ever read, but we will scramble to
                  > > > approve. Could we achieve the same results more effectively? Almost
                  > > > certainly. Countless other examples must exist.
                  > > >
                  > > > Todd Groves
                  > > >
                  > > > Todd Groves
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                  ><wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                  >
                  > > > "bedwellr" <bedwellr@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I think there is something wrong with a system where a professional
                  > > > educator who wants to make enough to support his or her family has only
                  > one
                  > > > real choice: find a way to get out of the classroom and into an office
                  > > > somewhere. Can you say Brain Drain?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
                  ><wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com><wccusdtalk%
                  > 40yahoogroups.com>, c
                  >
                  > > > slamon <cslamon@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I am a parent too, a busy working one at that and so I haven't had
                  > time
                  > > > to
                  > > > > > read the entire 231 pages of the study but I did read page 105
                  > which
                  > > > > > compares per pupil spending to 52 other districts. LA and Oakland
                  > are
                  > > > near
                  > > > > > the top spending around $13,000 per student; Clovis and Saddleback
                  > > > districts
                  > > > > > are at the bottom and they spend around $9,500 per student. And
                  > there
                  > > > is
                  > > > > > good old WCCUSD right in the middle of the list spending $10,791. I
                  > > > guess I
                  > > > > > don't see our district as one that's struggling the most
                  > financially
                  > > > because
                  > > > > > our board did the right thing to rein in spending which was to cap
                  > the
                  > > > > > employees health and retirement benefits. The one thing that is
                  > adding
                  > > > to
                  > > > > > our unfunded liabilities of close to 600 million dollars, that's
                  > > > > > $600,000,000. More than half a billion dollars in unsustainable
                  > > > benefits
                  > > > > > that were promised to employees without being able to pay for it.
                  > Our
                  > > > > > reward for those decisions is that our district will not go back
                  > > > > > into bankruptcy like some will this year and we did hold onto to
                  > many
                  > > > things
                  > > > > > that directly benefit the students, that other districts are
                  > cutting or
                  > > > > > doing away with entirely.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Norma J F Harrison
                  ...arguing about (talking about , evaluating , agreeing, disagreeing) arguing about comparative value of a person s work fits into the capitalist system, which
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 17, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ...arguing about (talking about , evaluating , agreeing, disagreeing) arguing
                    about comparative value of a person's work fits into the capitalist system,
                    which with much evidence, is what is murdering us all including Earth as we knew
                    it.
                    Administration, from the local small business to the running of the country is
                    all about separation: who shall survive; who will live with so much materially
                    they can never touch it all in their lifetimes; who shall starve to death or die
                    of lack of health care; who shall be bombed; what plants and other animals will
                    be destroyed in capitalism's march across the world.
                    These are all administered by our Owners and their electeds.
                    Don't abet that - at least, not by your ideas.  Think differently.  Hate the
                    horror makers.  That's a start - instead of accepting them.
                    Norma

                    ________________________________

                    From: Eduardo Martinez ezedmartin@... To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Tue, August 17, 2010 12:38:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy management?

                    This is the same phenomenon happening in the classroom.  More and more
                    responsibilities are piled on teachers when they already have more to do than is

                    physically possible.  Then certain individuals try to make others think that
                    teachers have it easy.
                    http://www.eduardomartinez4richmond.net/index.html
                    As the parent of armies, war encourages debts and taxes, the known instruments
                    for bringing the many under the domination of the few.  - James Madison
                    ________________________________
                    From: c slamon <cslamon@...>    To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue,
                    August 17, 2010 10:49:18 AM Subject: Re: [wccusdtalk] Re: Can you say TOP heavy
                    management?

                    thanks for the clarification, sorry I didn't get your point the first time.
                    I have a better understanding now.  I don't think our district is top
                    heavy.  In fact I think we are starting to see more things fall through the
                    cracks because of the way jobs have been combined etc.  That is also what
                    happens in the business world too.  Sometimes the work load is so heavy that
                    instead of doing the perfect work one is capable of, you strive to just get
                    it all done adequately.  That happens to me all the time.

                    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Todd Groves <tag1022@...> wrote:

                    >>> Yes, Chris. That's the point I attempted to make. Many corporations see
                    > differences between 200-300x lowest and highest salaries, not the 10x we see
                    > in the district. I know many people who earn what our top administrators
                    > earn for doing things with far fewer social consequences, say, perhaps,
                    > creating catalogs or websites.
                    >
                    > Is the district really top heavy? I really would not know how to measure
                    > it. Living in this area, those of us not pulling down Silicon Valley
                    > salaries feel pressure to do so. Some of us thrive on incomes skirting the
                    > poverty level. Most people working to develop children could make more money
                    > in other careers. It's not about the money.
                    >
                    > My biggest grievance with administration isn't salary, rather its role. Has
                    > anyone read the MGT audit of instruction? Most of the points it finds have
                    > been voiced time and again in this district over the past decade. Open Court
                    > implementation was heavy handed...Do tell! Why do we have to pay consultants
                    > for management intelligence that should be woven into the fabric of our
                    > administration. A random survey of teachers and parents would have yielded
                    > similar results. The report describes instructional management as very
                    > dysfunctional.
                    >
                    > We aren't top heavy if the investment has proportionate returns. Are we
                    > getting our monies' worth? I would argue no.
                    >
                    > Todd Groves
                    >
                    > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com <wccusdtalk%40yahoogroups.com>, c slamon
                    > <cslamon@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Todd, I do think the salary discrepancies that you say don't exist in the
                    > > private sector do exist, they just don't get reported. It exists in
                    >many......

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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