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Re: Pay for perforance, some thoughts

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  • rogerf85
    And, of course, this is a conversation. So I d love to hear ANY ideas about this aside that it is good or bad. Thanks
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 14 8:43 AM
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      And, of course, this is a conversation. So I'd love to hear ANY ideas about this aside that it is good or bad. Thanks

      --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is the sort of thinking that allows bad ideas to be implemented.  When we try to make a bad idea palatable by fiddling  with one or two of the objectionable points, we miss the point that it is NOT a good idea, sort of like putting new upholstery on a car with a blown engine; looks nice and feels good to sit in but it won't get you where you want to go.
      >
      > Eduardo
      >
      > --- On Thu, 8/13/09, rogerf85 <rogerf85@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: rogerf85 <rogerf85@...>
      > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Pay for perforance, some thoughts
      > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 8:04 PM
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      > I like the idea. It seems possible in a rather long-term; i.e. needs a lot of thought and preparation at the institutional level. It does remind me that I have a question: Do we have any reference to the methods that are being considered to "evaluate teachers based on test scores?" Is it on a yearly basis? Is the state-or the USDOE for that matter, somewhere with this?
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      > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro ups.com, Alex Pakter <alexpakter@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Hi All:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > I'm a brand new teacher in WCCUSD. I had a thought about the
      >
      > > pay-for-perforance issue. It looks to me like some form of it *will*
      >
      > > become the rule, like it or not. So here are my thoughts:
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      > >
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      > > If the policy is implemented, very strong safeguards should be put in
      >
      > > place to measure a broad curriculum. Most importantly it should
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      > > measure student acheivement in terms of absolute advancement, and not
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      > > with regards to current grade level. Consider a student who comes in
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      > > behind, and advances, but is still behind grade level when they leave
      >
      > > - a teacher should be rewarded for the student's advancement, not
      >
      > > penalized because they still aren't up to grade level. This means
      >
      > > that each year's tests must INCLUDE subject matter for lower grades,
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      > > and not assume that material has been mastered. This way you can
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      > > identify a high school student who is behind, but moves from 4th grade
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      > > level to 6th grade level. If you only test for 9th-grade knowledge,
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      > > you will never know that this student has advanced.
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      > >
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      > > The tests should also measure performance as averaged over several
      >
      > > years, to avoid penalizing a teacher who happens, one year, to get a
      >
      > > classroom full of students who are not good test-takers or are
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      > > slower-than- average learners.
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      > >
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      > > I think it's worth writing to our state representatives to make sure
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      > > that these considerations are included in the policies.
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      > >
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      > > Alex Pakter
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    • Eduardo Martinez
      To answer your question, I find that at Open House , parents not only see what their students did that year, but also shop for teachers for the following
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 14 7:25 PM
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        To answer your question, I find that at "Open House", parents not only see what their students did that year, but also "shop" for teachers for the following year.  They look for the best match for their child, but in some instances, for the parents' expectations.  I have had fantastic parents who understand what I am trying to do with my classroom and I have had fantastic parents who didn't.  In both cases, I tried to communicate the importance of my approach and philosophy of education.  Unfortunately with the increased class size, many teacher, myself included, end up only having time to communicate with parents of problematic students and with pro-active parents.

        Teaching and learning is about relationships and relationships cannot
        be quantified.  This is the problem with testing and especially the
        multiply choice type tests used in STAR testing. Elliot Eisner, a
        professor of education, once wrote, " Everything worth teaching is not
        quantifiable and everything quantifiable is not worth teaching." 
        Testing also does not address the value of what is being taught; it is
        not proscriptive, only descriptive, that is, it only tells you how well
        one was able to manipulate the test given.  It does not evaluate the
        value of the information tested nor does it evaluate the value of the
        instrument itself.  I usually take the tests I give my students and
        find in most cases, many of the questions are not really questions of
        empirical logic, but of the subjective logic of the test maker.  In
        other words, the test rates how well the test taker can anticipate what
        the test maker wanted.

        As a member of March4Education, I have advocated for community based schools.  We put forth a model for our vision of such a school and tried to get the school district to consider if nothing else, discussing the pros and cons of such a plan.  I believe that our problem is a philosophical one, one in which we do not know why we are teaching what we are teaching, and in the cases where we might have some inkling, we have no idea if what we are doing actually addresses our vision.  We are in a reactionary mode in which we pass laws to fix what we perceive as symptoms of a major problem, without knowing if it addresses the problem.  We need a major symposium in which we reevaluate the purpose of education and decide if what we are doing is getting us there. 



        --- On Fri, 8/14/09, rogerf85 <rogerf85@...> wrote:

        From: rogerf85 <rogerf85@...>
        Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Pay for perforance, some thoughts
        To: wccusdtalk@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:32 AM






         





        ... addendum: and what is my recourse if my child comes home with ridiculous homework and I have to complement his/her learning on my own?



        --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro ups.com, "rogerf85" <rogerf85@.. .> wrote:

        >

        > Regardless, when parents enroll their child(ren), they ask about the teachers. They look for a safe environment and a teacher who will challenge their kids to learn. They also hope to get some results in learning. I understand your point, but how do you suggest parents select teachers?

        >

        > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro ups.com, Eduardo Martinez <ezedmartin@ > wrote:

        > >

        > > This is the sort of thinking that allows bad ideas to be implemented..  When we try to make a bad idea palatable by fiddling  with one or two of the objectionable points, we miss the point that it is NOT a good idea, sort of like putting new upholstery on a car with a blown engine; looks nice and feels good to sit in but it won't get you where you want to go.

        > >

        > > Eduardo

        > >

        > > --- On Thu, 8/13/09, rogerf85 <rogerf85@> wrote:

        > >

        > > From: rogerf85 <rogerf85@>

        > > Subject: [wccusdtalk] Re: Pay for perforance, some thoughts

        > > To: wccusdtalk@yahoogro ups.com

        > > Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 8:04 PM

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >  

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > > I like the idea. It seems possible in a rather long-term; i.e. needs a lot of thought and preparation at the institutional level. It does remind me that I have a question: Do we have any reference to the methods that are being considered to "evaluate teachers based on test scores?" Is it on a yearly basis? Is the state-or the USDOE for that matter, somewhere with this?

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > > --- In wccusdtalk@yahoogro ups.com, Alex Pakter <alexpakter@ ...> wrote:

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > Hi All:

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > I'm a brand new teacher in WCCUSD. I had a thought about the

        > >

        > > > pay-for-perforance issue. It looks to me like some form of it *will*

        > >

        > > > become the rule, like it or not. So here are my thoughts:

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > If the policy is implemented, very strong safeguards should be put in

        > >

        > > > place to measure a broad curriculum. Most importantly it should

        > >

        > > > measure student acheivement in terms of absolute advancement, and not

        > >

        > > > with regards to current grade level. Consider a student who comes in

        > >

        > > > behind, and advances, but is still behind grade level when they leave

        > >

        > > > - a teacher should be rewarded for the student's advancement, not

        > >

        > > > penalized because they still aren't up to grade level. This means

        > >

        > > > that each year's tests must INCLUDE subject matter for lower grades,

        > >

        > > > and not assume that material has been mastered. This way you can

        > >

        > > > identify a high school student who is behind, but moves from 4th grade

        > >

        > > > level to 6th grade level. If you only test for 9th-grade knowledge,

        > >

        > > > you will never know that this student has advanced.

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > The tests should also measure performance as averaged over several

        > >

        > > > years, to avoid penalizing a teacher who happens, one year, to get a

        > >

        > > > classroom full of students who are not good test-takers or are

        > >

        > > > slower-than- average learners.

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > I think it's worth writing to our state representatives to make sure

        > >

        > > > that these considerations are included in the policies.

        > >

        > > >

        > >

        > > > Alex Pakter

        > >

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        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        > >

        >































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