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10 Challenges

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  • George
    Hi Guys, I ve been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 31, 2011
      Hi Guys,

      I've been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket community. The main idea is that the challenges don't have complex rules, no judges, just very simple goals. The challenge achievements would be self-awarded purely on an honour system. It would be up to the individuals to choose how they interpret the few rules and how they present their achievements. Anyone can claim they have achieved a particular challenge, but without convincing evidence others in the community would probably remain skeptical.

      There would be no ranking and no prizes awarded, though I was thinking that there could be a different badge for each challenge that people could put on their blogs or websites when they believe they have satisfied the spirit of a challenge.

      I'm trying to exclude two specific challenges "Highest altitude" and "Longest hang time" as these are what most people concentrate on already. These 10 challenges are aimed at getting people thinking about designing their rockets and launchers in different ways.

      Here are some ideas for a few of the challenges, but wanted to hear from others what people considered to be tough but achievable challenges. What should the challenges be?

      In no particular order:

      Precision - Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 90 degrees from launch to apogee. You can fly any water rocket you like, but will need show that it did not turn more than 90 degrees.

      Accuracy - Land a rocket repeatably in the same spot. Or fly the same trajectory?

      Durability - Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted.  The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively or even on the same day. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.

      Power - Lift a 100Kg mass 10m.

      Complexity - Launch a 5 stage rocket.

      Speed - Launch the same rocket 10 times in 30 minutes.

      Reusability - ?

      Repeatability
      -?


      The idea is that the less rules there are the broader the approach people can take to achieve the challenge.

      Time to put your thinking caps on, all comments and suggestions are welcome. :)


      - George
    • Mike Passerotti
      Howabout a parchute release that works reliably. That s my biggest challenge right now. Or, howabout a largest volume with smallest weight that will hold
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 31, 2011
        Howabout a parchute release that works reliably.  That's my biggest challenge right now.
         
        Or, howabout a largest volume with smallest weight that will hold 100psi.
         
        Or, howabout the highest flying with unmodified 2 liter pressure container made from a soda bottle.  Gluing externally is still unmodified.  Guppying the nose is modifying.  Cutting into the pressure vessel is modifying.  Gluing in or screwing on a restricted nozzle is not modifying.
         
        Nice thoughts.  Things to work on.
         
        Mike
         

        To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
        From: air.command@...
        Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:02 +0000
        Subject: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges



        Hi Guys,

        I've been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket community. The main idea is that the challenges don't have complex rules, no judges, just very simple goals. The challenge achievements would be self-awarded purely on an honour system. It would be up to the individuals to choose how they interpret the few rules and how they present their achievements. Anyone can claim they have achieved a particular challenge, but without convincing evidence others in the community would probably remain skeptical.

        There would be no ranking and no prizes awarded, though I was thinking that there could be a different badge for each challenge that people could put on their blogs or websites when they believe they have satisfied the spirit of a challenge.

        I'm trying to exclude two specific challenges "Highest altitude" and "Longest hang time" as these are what most people concentrate on already. These 10 challenges are aimed at getting people thinking about designing their rockets and launchers in different ways.

        Here are some ideas for a few of the challenges, but wanted to hear from others what people considered to be tough but achievable challenges. What should the challenges be?

        In no particular order:

        Precision - Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 90 degrees from launch to apogee. You can fly any water rocket you like, but will need show that it did not turn more than 90 degrees.

        Accuracy - Land a rocket repeatably in the same spot. Or fly the same trajectory?

        Durability - Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted.  The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively or even on the same day. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.

        Power - Lift a 100Kg mass 10m.

        Complexity - Launch a 5 stage rocket.

        Speed - Launch the same rocket 10 times in 30 minutes.

        Reusability - ?

        Repeatability
        -?


        The idea is that the less rules there are the broader the approach people can take to achieve the challenge.

        Time to put your thinking caps on, all comments and suggestions are welcome. :)


        - George

      • Ralph Oborn
        And maybe add some instrumentation challenges also 1. Accurate altimeter 2. Measure launch speed 3. Release a separate parachute object 4. Photograph 5. Video
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 31, 2011
          And maybe add some instrumentation challenges also

          1. Accurate altimeter
          2. Measure launch speed
          3. Release a separate parachute object
          4. Photograph
          5. Video
          6. Egg launch (and recovery)


          Just thinkin


          Ralph


          On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Mike Passerotti <mikepasserotti@...> wrote:


          Howabout a parchute release that works reliably.  That's my biggest challenge right now.
           
          Or, howabout a largest volume with smallest weight that will hold 100psi.
           
          Or, howabout the highest flying with unmodified 2 liter pressure container made from a soda bottle.  Gluing externally is still unmodified.  Guppying the nose is modifying.  Cutting into the pressure vessel is modifying.  Gluing in or screwing on a restricted nozzle is not modifying.
           
          Nice thoughts.  Things to work on.
           
          Mike
           

          To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
          From: air.command@...
          Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:02 +0000
          Subject: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges




          Hi Guys,

          I've been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket community. The main idea is that the challenges don't have complex rules, no judges, just very simple goals. The challenge achievements would be self-awarded purely on an honour system. It would be up to the individuals to choose how they interpret the few rules and how they present their achievements. Anyone can claim they have achieved a particular challenge, but without convincing evidence others in the community would probably remain skeptical.

          There would be no ranking and no prizes awarded, though I was thinking that there could be a different badge for each challenge that people could put on their blogs or websites when they believe they have satisfied the spirit of a challenge.

          I'm trying to exclude two specific challenges "Highest altitude" and "Longest hang time" as these are what most people concentrate on already. These 10 challenges are aimed at getting people thinking about designing their rockets and launchers in different ways.

          Here are some ideas for a few of the challenges, but wanted to hear from others what people considered to be tough but achievable challenges. What should the challenges be?

          In no particular order:

          Precision - Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 90 degrees from launch to apogee. You can fly any water rocket you like, but will need show that it did not turn more than 90 degrees.

          Accuracy - Land a rocket repeatably in the same spot. Or fly the same trajectory?

          Durability - Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted.  The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively or even on the same day. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.

          Power - Lift a 100Kg mass 10m.

          Complexity - Launch a 5 stage rocket.

          Speed - Launch the same rocket 10 times in 30 minutes.

          Reusability - ?

          Repeatability
          -?


          The idea is that the less rules there are the broader the approach people can take to achieve the challenge.

          Time to put your thinking caps on, all comments and suggestions are welcome. :)


          - George




        • Mike Passerotti
          5. Video I like that, because I haven t seen much more done with high speed video lately. That is so revealing. Mike To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com From:
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 31, 2011
            5. Video
             
            I like that, because I haven't seen much more done with high speed video lately.  That is so revealing.
             
            Mike
             

            To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
            From: Ralph.oborn@...
            Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:52:44 -0600
            Subject: Re: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges



            And maybe add some instrumentation challenges also

            1. Accurate altimeter
            2. Measure launch speed
            3. Release a separate parachute object
            4. Photograph
            5. Video
            6. Egg launch (and recovery)


            Just thinkin


            Ralph


            On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Mike Passerotti <mikepasserotti@...> wrote:


            Howabout a parchute release that works reliably.  That's my biggest challenge right now.
             
            Or, howabout a largest volume with smallest weight that will hold 100psi.
             
            Or, howabout the highest flying with unmodified 2 liter pressure container made from a soda bottle.  Gluing externally is still unmodified.  Guppying the nose is modifying.  Cutting into the pressure vessel is modifying.  Gluing in or screwing on a restricted nozzle is not modifying.
             
            Nice thoughts.  Things to work on.
             
            Mike
             

            To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
            From: air.command@...
            Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:02 +0000
            Subject: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges




            Hi Guys,

            I've been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket community. The main idea is that the challenges don't have complex rules, no judges, just very simple goals. The challenge achievements would be self-awarded purely on an honour system. It would be up to the individuals to choose how they interpret the few rules and how they present their achievements. Anyone can claim they have achieved a particular challenge, but without convincing evidence others in the community would probably remain skeptical.

            There would be no ranking and no prizes awarded, though I was thinking that there could be a different badge for each challenge that people could put on their blogs or websites when they believe they have satisfied the spirit of a challenge.

            I'm trying to exclude two specific challenges "Highest altitude" and "Longest hang time" as these are what most people concentrate on already. These 10 challenges are aimed at getting people thinking about designing their rockets and launchers in different ways.

            Here are some ideas for a few of the challenges, but wanted to hear from others what people considered to be tough but achievable challenges. What should the challenges be?

            In no particular order:

            Precision - Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 90 degrees from launch to apogee. You can fly any water rocket you like, but will need show that it did not turn more than 90 degrees.

            Accuracy - Land a rocket repeatably in the same spot. Or fly the same trajectory?

            Durability - Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted.  The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively or even on the same day. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.

            Power - Lift a 100Kg mass 10m.

            Complexity - Launch a 5 stage rocket.

            Speed - Launch the same rocket 10 times in 30 minutes.

            Reusability - ?

            Repeatability
            -?


            The idea is that the less rules there are the broader the approach people can take to achieve the challenge.

            Time to put your thinking caps on, all comments and suggestions are welcome. :)


            - George






          • George
            Thanks for the suggestions guys. @Mike: A reliable parachute release challenge sounds great. Perhaps if the rocketeer manages to deploy a parachute
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 1, 2011
              Thanks for the suggestions guys.

              @Mike: A reliable parachute release challenge sounds great. Perhaps if the rocketeer manages to deploy a parachute consecutively 30 times then the challenge would be met. That could fall under the "reliability" title.

              With the unmodified 2L rocket challenge, I would tend to steer away from rocket specifics with these challenges so that rocketeers are challenged to think about different ways to build their rockets to satisfy a specific goal. This opens up the challenges to a greater number of people. Perhaps a challenge along your suggestion could be to fly a rocket over 200feet without using any glue or tape and the only material you can use is PET bottles. It would make for some interesting cutting and folding to make fins, and a weighted nosecone. :)

              I do like the idea of largest volume with minimal weight to hold pressure. Perhaps the challenge goal there could be that you need to make a rocket over a certain volume say 200L and need to get the rocket over a certain altitude perhaps 100feet?



              @Ralph: An instrumentation challenge could be an interesting one. With a photography challenge perhaps the goal could be something like getting a complete 360 degree panorama from the rocket. Whether it's achieved from one camera or multiple ones would be up to the flier.

              The Egg launch is a good one and quite popular among even pyro rocketeers. How about the challenge then could be a dozen eggs need to be flown and recovered safely on a single flight?

              With the challenge goals I am trying to avoid things like highest, or fastest as that implies a ranking against other people. Probably the best equivalent with these challenges is like collecting Scout badges that rocketeers can earn for themselves.

              The challenges are meant to be tough to achieve that makes you push the envelope a little, and so much more satisfying when you achieve them.

              Certainly there can be more than 10, but I'm trying to pick out the most interesting ones to put in the first 10.

              The same challenges could be applied to Junior or school fliers, but perhaps with reduced targets.


              > I like that, because I haven't seen much more done with high speed video lately. That is so revealing.
              >
              > Mike

              I'm with you on that one Mike. I love the slow mo that shows what's actually happening in great detail. With new high speed digital cameras being cheaper every year, hopefully we'll see more and more footage soon.

              - George


              --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Mike Passerotti <mikepasserotti@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > 5. Video
              >
              > I like that, because I haven't seen much more done with high speed video lately. That is so revealing.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              >
              >
              > To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
              > From: Ralph.oborn@...
              > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:52:44 -0600
              > Subject: Re: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges
              >
              >
              > And maybe add some instrumentation challenges also
              >
              >
              > Accurate altimeter
              > Measure launch speed
              > Release a separate parachute object
              > Photograph
              > Video
              > Egg launch (and recovery)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Just thinkin
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ralph
              >
              >
              >
              > On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Mike Passerotti <mikepasserotti@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Howabout a parchute release that works reliably. That's my biggest challenge right now.
              >
              > Or, howabout a largest volume with smallest weight that will hold 100psi.
              >
              > Or, howabout the highest flying with unmodified 2 liter pressure container made from a soda bottle. Gluing externally is still unmodified. Guppying the nose is modifying. Cutting into the pressure vessel is modifying. Gluing in or screwing on a restricted nozzle is not modifying.
              >
              > Nice thoughts. Things to work on.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              >
              >
              > To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
              > From: air.command@...
              > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:02 +0000
              > Subject: [water-rockets] 10 Challenges
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Guys,
              >
              > I've been thinking about putting together a list of 10 tough water rocket challenges that would encourage broader innovation in the water rocket community. The main idea is that the challenges don't have complex rules, no judges, just very simple goals. The challenge achievements would be self-awarded purely on an honour system. It would be up to the individuals to choose how they interpret the few rules and how they present their achievements. Anyone can claim they have achieved a particular challenge, but without convincing evidence others in the community would probably remain skeptical.
              >
              > There would be no ranking and no prizes awarded, though I was thinking that there could be a different badge for each challenge that people could put on their blogs or websites when they believe they have satisfied the spirit of a challenge.
              >
              > I'm trying to exclude two specific challenges "Highest altitude" and "Longest hang time" as these are what most people concentrate on already. These 10 challenges are aimed at getting people thinking about designing their rockets and launchers in different ways.
              >
              > Here are some ideas for a few of the challenges, but wanted to hear from others what people considered to be tough but achievable challenges. What should the challenges be?
              >
              > In no particular order:
              >
              > Precision - Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 90 degrees from launch to apogee. You can fly any water rocket you like, but will need show that it did not turn more than 90 degrees.
              >
              > Accuracy - Land a rocket repeatably in the same spot. Or fly the same trajectory?
              >
              > Durability - Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted. The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively or even on the same day. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.
              >
              > Power - Lift a 100Kg mass 10m.
              >
              > Complexity - Launch a 5 stage rocket.
              >
              > Speed - Launch the same rocket 10 times in 30 minutes.
              >
              > Reusability - ?
              >
              > Repeatability -?
              >
              >
              > The idea is that the less rules there are the broader the approach people can take to achieve the challenge.
              >
              > Time to put your thinking caps on, all comments and suggestions are welcome. :)
              >
              >
              > - George
              >
            • blogser321
              Hi George, Nice idea. It so good to see something that allows further development of wrockets and new ideas. I miss the flight time, and since moving I found
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 1, 2011
                Hi George,

                Nice idea. It' so good to see something that allows further development of wrockets and new ideas.

                I miss the flight time, and since moving I found another airport to live under :O This one has the air sea rescue flying out of it :C

                Here's a good chalenge for your list. "Finding an off the shelf bottle that can take 125psi for the 100 flights", or just a bottle that can take 125 for it's first flight. Bottles just aren't as good these days.

                Anyway, I hope it all goes well for everybody.

                Good flights, n' all the best
                Richard.

                And yes, I still drop in and lurk every now and then. Just to keep an eye on air command :)
              • Todd
                ... Hi George, Interesting Idea. I like the collecting badges type idea, that can be added to your website. I know you dont want a how high one, but maybe a
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 2, 2011
                  > With the challenge goals I am trying to avoid things like highest, or fastest as that implies a ranking against other people. Probably the best equivalent with these challenges is like collecting Scout badges that rocketeers can earn for themselves.

                  Hi George,

                  Interesting Idea. I like the collecting badges type idea, that can be added to your website. I know you dont want a how high one, but maybe a slightly different approach to it could be awarding them for individual heights achieved ie: one for 100ft, 200ft, 300ft, 400ft, 500ft

                  I know when I launched my first water rocket it would have been lucky to go 100ft and at the time I was very happy with that, so I worked on another one to get over the 100ft mark, once I achieved this the next one to go after was breaking the 200ft barrier etc. So this way you are challenging yourself and you can collect the height badges as you go.

                  Another idea is the safety badge. To get this badge you need to show that you perform this hobby safely. To prove this you need to take pics of your setup, ie: rocket, launcher, pump etc and a picture of how you setup a launch day, far back you are from the launcher, how far back the spectators are, warnings when launching etc. If you meet the generally accepted safety standards then you get the safety badge.

                  I will have to think of some for the 4 wheeled versions of the water rockets too :)

                  -todd-
                  HHWRSA
                • George
                  Hi Richard, Good to hear from you. :) Yeah, it would be interesting to find a bottle that would handle that kind of punishment. I think the thicker European
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 3, 2011
                    Hi Richard,

                    Good to hear from you. :) Yeah, it would be interesting to find a bottle that would handle that kind of punishment. I think the thicker European ones may be up to the challenge, but pressure cycling those a hundred times may be quite a bit to ask. I guess if you limit the pressure and aim for lowest altitude and perhaps launch over water it may be possible for it to survive :) That's why the challenge does not specify the pressure chamber. Someone could make it out of tougher materials than PET.

                    All the best.

                    - George

                    --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "blogser321" <torwind@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi George,
                    >
                    > Nice idea. It' so good to see something that allows further development of wrockets and new ideas.
                    >
                    > I miss the flight time, and since moving I found another airport to live under :O This one has the air sea rescue flying out of it :C
                    >
                    > Here's a good chalenge for your list. "Finding an off the shelf bottle that can take 125psi for the 100 flights", or just a bottle that can take 125 for it's first flight. Bottles just aren't as good these days.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I hope it all goes well for everybody.
                    >
                    > Good flights, n' all the best
                    > Richard.
                    >
                    > And yes, I still drop in and lurk every now and then. Just to keep an eye on air command :)
                    >
                  • George
                    Hi Todd, Thanks for the suggestions. I really like the staged approach to the challenges, it lets rocketeers at all levels try to better their designs as they
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 3, 2011
                      Hi Todd,

                      Thanks for the suggestions. I really like the staged approach to the challenges, it lets rocketeers at all levels try to better their designs as they work towards the main challenge. As you say it could also let altitude, hang time,distance and speed be challenges without the need to be the "highest". The same could of course apply to water powered land and water vehicles. ;)

                      I was thinking one interesting challenge might be to build a rocket that can fly, drive and float on water without any modifications.

                      There could be a main badge awarded for each difficult challenge with smaller badges earned along the way indicating the level within the challenge. You would probably limit the number of levels to perhaps 3 or 5.

                      Thanks everyone for the good ideas.

                      - George


                      --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <todd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > With the challenge goals I am trying to avoid things like highest, or fastest as that implies a ranking against other people. Probably the best equivalent with these challenges is like collecting Scout badges that rocketeers can earn for themselves.
                      >
                      > Hi George,
                      >
                      > Interesting Idea. I like the collecting badges type idea, that can be added to your website. I know you dont want a how high one, but maybe a slightly different approach to it could be awarding them for individual heights achieved ie: one for 100ft, 200ft, 300ft, 400ft, 500ft
                      >
                      > I know when I launched my first water rocket it would have been lucky to go 100ft and at the time I was very happy with that, so I worked on another one to get over the 100ft mark, once I achieved this the next one to go after was breaking the 200ft barrier etc. So this way you are challenging yourself and you can collect the height badges as you go.
                      >
                      > Another idea is the safety badge. To get this badge you need to show that you perform this hobby safely. To prove this you need to take pics of your setup, ie: rocket, launcher, pump etc and a picture of how you setup a launch day, far back you are from the launcher, how far back the spectators are, warnings when launching etc. If you meet the generally accepted safety standards then you get the safety badge.
                      >
                      > I will have to think of some for the 4 wheeled versions of the water rockets too :)
                      >
                      > -todd-
                      > HHWRSA
                      >
                    • Ralph Oborn
                      How about a Masters Certificate when you become accomplished. With the phrase ..... Actually it is rocket science Or T-shirts Actual Rocket
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 3, 2011
                        How about a "Masters Certificate" when you become accomplished.

                        With the phrase ..... "Actually it is rocket science"

                        Or T-shirts "Actual Rocket Scientist" :]


                        Ralph

                        On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 4:52 PM, George <air.command@...> wrote:
                        > Hi Todd,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the suggestions. I really like the staged approach to the challenges, it lets rocketeers at all levels try to better their designs as they work towards the main challenge. As you say it could also let altitude, hang time,distance and speed be challenges without the need to be the "highest". The same could of course apply to water powered land and water vehicles. ;)
                        >
                        > I was thinking one interesting challenge might be to build a rocket that can fly, drive and float on water without any modifications.
                        >
                        > There could be a main badge awarded for each difficult challenge with smaller badges earned along the way indicating the level within the challenge. You would probably limit the number of levels to perhaps 3 or 5.
                        >
                        > Thanks everyone for the good ideas.
                        >
                        > - George
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <todd@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> > With the challenge goals I am trying to avoid things like highest, or fastest as that implies a ranking against other people. Probably the best equivalent with these challenges is like collecting Scout badges that rocketeers can earn for themselves.
                        >>
                        >> Hi George,
                        >>
                        >> Interesting Idea. I like the collecting badges type idea, that can be added to your website. I know you dont want a how high one, but maybe a slightly different approach to it could be awarding them for individual heights achieved ie: one for 100ft, 200ft, 300ft, 400ft, 500ft
                        >>
                        >> I know when I launched my first water rocket it would have been lucky to go 100ft and at the time I was very happy with that, so I worked on another one to get over the 100ft mark, once I achieved this the next one to go after was breaking the 200ft barrier etc. So this way you are challenging yourself and you can collect the height badges as you go.
                        >>
                        >> Another idea is the safety badge. To get this badge you need to show  that you perform this hobby safely. To prove this you need to take pics of your setup, ie: rocket, launcher, pump etc and a picture of how you setup a launch day, far back you are from the launcher, how far back the spectators are, warnings when launching etc. If you meet the generally accepted safety standards then you get the safety badge.
                        >>
                        >> I will have to think of some for the 4 wheeled versions of the water rockets too :)
                        >>
                        >> -todd-
                        >> HHWRSA
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Bill Robinson
                        I think it s time for helicopter recovery to be one of the 10 challenges! The descent times for helicopter recovery beat all other type of recovery, getting
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 5, 2011
                          I think it's time for helicopter recovery to be one of the 10 challenges!

                          The descent times for helicopter recovery beat all other type of
                          recovery, getting 20-30 seconds or more of descent time.
                          Here is the only working helicopter recovery I have ever heard of, it
                          was me back in 1998 in Poway, CA.
                          http://dogrocket.home.mindspring.com/WaterRockets/heli/heli.html

                          I would love to see more being done with helicopter recovery!
                        • George
                          Thanks Bill, that s a very good idea. :) I ve combined the helicopter recovery in with what Mike suggested for parachute recovery. The challenge now has you
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 6, 2011
                            Thanks Bill, that's a very good idea. :) I've combined the helicopter recovery in with what Mike suggested for parachute recovery. The challenge now has you build a number of different recovery systems.

                            Here is a progress update on my thoughts of the challenges so far, though the specific goal targets are not finalized yet.  I've added a couple of levels to each challenge from Todd's altitude stepping stone suggestion. I've also decided that these challenges should all be achievable at the local park, or school oval level, as they don't require the water rockets to fly very high. This gives many more people/school/scout groups the opportunity to attempt the challenges.

                            General rules:
                            1. Primary propulsion for these challenges should come from compressed gas and water.
                            2. If you meet the challenge or a higher level you can claim the lower level badges as well.
                            3. You can complete several challenges simultaneously. If a flight achieves or exceeds another challenge's goals then you can claim that challenge as well.


                            The Challenges:

                            1. Precision
                            Goal: Fly a rocket that will not spin more than 45 degrees from launch to apogee.

                                Level 1 - 180 degrees
                                Level 2 - 90 degrees

                            Rationale: Teaches you to build your rocket accurately, paying particular attention to aerodynamics and fin alignment. Building non-rotating rockets is useful for aerial photography.

                            2. Durability
                            Goal: Fly a rocket 100 times without any repairs. Rocket must fly a minimum 100 feet on each launch that will be counted.

                                Level 1 - 25 launches
                                Level 2 - 50 launches

                            Rationale: Teaches you to consider what components can fail, and how they can be reinforced.
                            Notes: The rocket does not have to fly 100 times consecutively. Flights that don't reach 100 feet are not counted.

                            3. Power
                            Goal: Lift a 100Kg mass 30 feet.
                                Level 1 - 25Kg
                                Level 2 - 50Kg

                            Rationale: Teaches you how to build powerful boosters.
                            Notes: The rocket and launcher can be any design, and clusters are allowed.


                            4. Complexity
                            Goal: Launch a 5 stage rocket.
                                Level 1 - 3 stages
                                Level 2 - 4 stages

                            Rationale: Teaches you how to prepare and setup a complicated launch.


                            5. Speed
                            Goal: Launch the same rocket 15 times in 30 minutes.
                                Level 1 - 5 times
                                Level 2 - 10 times

                            Rationale: Teaches you to consider launch procedure efficiencies, and quick fill/pressurise launcher design.


                            6. Materials
                            Goal: Launch a rocket over 200 feet using only PET plastic. No glue or tape is allowed.
                                Level 1 - 50 feet
                                Level 2 - 100 feet

                            Rationale: Teaches you how to think about using materials in different ways.


                            7. Accuracy
                            Goal: Land a rocket 3 times in a designated area.
                            Not sure what the distances should be or taget area yet.?

                            Rationale: Teaches you how to set-up the rocket, launcher and launch parameters to get the rocket to land in a particular spot.


                            8. Volume
                            Goal: Launch a rocket whose total pressurised volume exceeds 100L. Rocket must fly higher than 50 feet.
                                Level 1 - 25L
                                Level 2 - 50L

                            Rationale: Teaches you to assemble large volume pressure vessels.
                            Notes: The rocket can be clustered, staged or single pressure chamber.


                            9. Recovery
                            Goal: Build and sucessfully fly 5 different recovery systems.
                                Level 1 - 3 recovery systems
                                Level 2 - 4 recovery systems

                                1. Parachute
                                2. Helicopter
                                3. Streamer
                                4. Backglider
                                5. ???

                            Rationale: Teaches you to pros and cons of various recovery methods.

                            10. ....?


                            Not sure what the 10th challenge will be yet.  Though I can see additional challenges will be added with the other suggestions people made like instrumentation, photography, safety, cars etc.


                            - George



                            --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Bill Robinson <pouncer1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think it's time for helicopter recovery to be one of the 10 challenges!
                            >
                            > The descent times for helicopter recovery beat all other type of
                            > recovery, getting 20-30 seconds or more of descent time.
                            > Here is the only working helicopter recovery I have ever heard of, it
                            > was me back in 1998 in Poway, CA.
                            > http://dogrocket.home.mindspring.com/WaterRockets/heli/heli.html
                            >
                            > I would love to see more being done with helicopter recovery!
                            >
                          • sranma58
                            I think the challenge n° 10 can be something about sealing, like for example building a launcher and rocket that can stay fully pressurised, ready for launch,
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 7, 2011
                              I think the challenge n° 10 can be something about sealing, like for example building a launcher and rocket that can stay fully pressurised, ready for launch, for at least 1 hour without losing more than 10% of it's pressure in that time.

                              Greetings from Brazil
                            • hexie7
                              Here is a challenge that I have been working on. I am tring to write my own sim spreadsheet for water rockets. Sure the NASA one is nice, but it doesn t take
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 8, 2011
                                Here is a challenge that I have been working on. I am tring to write my own sim spreadsheet for water rockets. Sure the NASA one is nice, but it doesn't take into consideration larger water rockets. I am in school now so I haven't had time to work on it. When I am done I would like to have a spreadsheet that would tell you the following:
                                Trust at take off
                                "Burn" time
                                Coast time
                                Y max
                                Y max time
                                Max Velocity

                                Input data would be:
                                Empty weight of rocket
                                Volume of water used
                                Total volume of rocket
                                Width of rocket
                                PSI used

                                I actually want to figure in the drag created by wind resistance.
                                According to other sims a 4L rocket at 65 PSI develops considerable speed. At high speed wind resistance is definitly a factor.

                                Has anyone else tried this ?
                              • Clifford Heath
                                ... . You can t do it with high school maths. There s stuff in there that is hard work for a final-year engineer
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 8, 2011
                                  On 08/04/2011, at 8:15 PM, hexie7 wrote:
                                  > I actually want to figure in the drag created by wind resistance.
                                  > According to other sims a 4L rocket at 65 PSI develops considerable
                                  > speed. At high speed wind resistance is definitly a factor.
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone else tried this ?
                                  >

                                  <http://cjh.polyplex.org/rockets/simulation/>.

                                  You can't do it with high school maths. There's stuff in there that
                                  is hard work for a final-year engineer studying fluid dynamics.

                                  Clifford Heath.
                                • Mike Passerotti
                                  Don t I know it, Clifford. I appreciate all your hard work at putting together your sim. Awesome! Still, high school math can end up with an approximation
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 8, 2011
                                    Don't I know it, Clifford.  I appreciate all your hard work at putting together your sim.  Awesome!  Still, high school math can end up with an approximation for making some studies of rocketry that would reveal some details like the relationship between increased velocity and increased drag.  Or even change in nose cone shape and changes in drag.  Enough to get a start.  Kind of like using triangles in trigonometry can be used to approximate round or uneven shapes.  As the size of the triangles get smaller, the accuracy of the approximation increases.  Getting real close requires that multi-dimensional differential equations of advanced calculus.  But, you can learn so much from doing, I suggest hexie7 go do that study.  And then compare results with Clifford's simulator.
                                     
                                    Mike
                                     
                                    > On 08/04/2011, at 8:15 PM, hexie7 wrote:
                                    > > I actually want to figure in the drag created by wind resistance.
                                    > > According to other sims a 4L rocket at 65 PSI develops considerable
                                    > > speed. At high speed wind resistance is definitly a factor.
                                    > >
                                    > > Has anyone else tried this ?
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > <http://cjh.polyplex.org/rockets/simulation/>.
                                    >
                                    > You can't do it with high school maths. There's stuff in there that
                                    > is hard work for a final-year engineer studying fluid dynamics.
                                    >
                                    > Clifford Heath.
                                    >
                                  • Bolivar Vivacqua
                                    Hi Clifford, I would like to use your simulator but i need someunderstanding of certain variables and it´s impact in the fly. 1 - What is Nozzle loss factor
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 8, 2011
                                      Hi Clifford,

                                      I would like to use your simulator but i need some understanding of certain variables and it´s impact in the fly.

                                      1 - What is Nozzle  loss factor
                                      and how to calculated or estimate?
                                      2 - What is Coefficient of Drag and how to calculate or estimate?
                                      3 - What is Initial speed (for second stage)
                                      and how to define or estimate??

                                      When I'm using a launcher type quick release (Like gardena), the parameters I use to launch tube length and diameter.

                                      Thanks,


                                      Bolivar


                                      From: Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@...>
                                      To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 7:44:56 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [water-rockets] Re: 10 Challenges

                                       

                                      On 08/04/2011, at 8:15 PM, hexie7 wrote:
                                      > I actually want to figure in the drag created by wind resistance.
                                      > According to other sims a 4L rocket at 65 PSI develops considerable
                                      > speed. At high speed wind resistance is definitly a factor.
                                      >
                                      > Has anyone else tried this ?
                                      >

                                      <http://cjh.polyplex.org/rockets/simulation/>.

                                      You can't do it with high school maths. There's stuff in there that
                                      is hard work for a final-year engineer studying fluid dynamics.

                                      Clifford Heath.


                                    • Clifford Heath
                                      ... It s hard to know for sure without measuring it. Bruce Berggren estimated it once using static flow tests, and various bottle shapes all came out around
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 8, 2011
                                        On 09/04/2011, at 4:34 AM, Bolivar Vivacqua wrote:
                                        > I would like to use your simulator but i need some understanding of
                                        > certain variables and it´s impact in the fly.
                                        >
                                        > 1 - What is Nozzle loss factor and how to calculated or estimate?

                                        It's hard to know for sure without measuring it. Bruce Berggren
                                        estimated it once
                                        using static flow tests, and various bottle shapes all came out around
                                        0.16. If you
                                        have a nozzle with a poor inlet shape, you might use a larger value,
                                        otherwise
                                        just leave it alone.

                                        > 2 - What is Coefficient of Drag and how to calculate or estimate?

                                        Again, this requires measuring, and the best way to measure it is to
                                        fly your
                                        rocket and co-relate the apogee time, or even better, crashdown time,
                                        assuming
                                        you have no recovery device. In other words, you back-fit it.

                                        Although this sounds like a way to guarantee that the simulation matches
                                        reality, in fact we've done a number of experiments that show that in
                                        most
                                        respects, the simulator does work pretty well. CD is the main unknown,
                                        so
                                        back-fitting it is reasonable.

                                        Water rockets vary widely between about 0.6 down to below 0.2.

                                        > 3 - What is Initial speed (for second stage) and how to define or
                                        > estimate??

                                        If you are launching a single-stage rocket, you have zero initial speed.
                                        Because my sim only calculates one stage, you can set it up to compute
                                        the boost phase of a two-stage rocket, then extract the "burnout
                                        velocity"
                                        and altitude from that sim, and use it as the starting point for the
                                        second
                                        stage.

                                        > When I'm using a launcher type quick release (Like gardena), the
                                        > parameters I use to launch tube length and diameter.

                                        A quick-release launcher doesn't have a launch tube, so use zero for
                                        launch tube length. The nozzle diameter is the internal size of the
                                        Gardena spout. Don't worry if you can't measure it accurately, as it
                                        doesn't affect the final altitude much, mainly the rate of acceleration.

                                        Clifford Heath.
                                      • Brad Calvert
                                        Has anyone ever used the Airhog (compressed air piston-driven model plane engine) engines to drive wheels on the ground, or a boat propeller? It would be
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 9, 2011
                                          Has anyone ever used the Airhog (compressed air piston-driven model plane engine) engines to drive wheels on the ground, or a boat propeller?

                                          It would be interesting to see how far such a vehicle could travel.

                                          ****

                                          There are a lot of brainy people on this list....

                                          Last week I flew from Cairns to Melbourne (4000?km).  Looking out the window to the ground, where I would have expected to see the plane's shadow I instead saw a bright spot on the ground.  I could tell from the positions of clouds and their shadows where the plane shadow should be, so I wasn't imagining it.  It continued for quite a while, maybe half an hour, full cruising height.  I guess the sun might have been 20 or 30 degrees away from being vertically overhead.  My thought was that the wake of the plane somehow causes the air to act like a lens, but I can't quite figure it out...

                                          Does the air exiting from beneath the wings have a greater density from the surrounding air?

                                          Does anyone know about this?

                                          I see a few explanations:

                                          http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=27630.msg350973;boardseen
                                        • Bolivar Vivacqua
                                          Thanks !!! I´ll do some tests and feedback my results. Bolivar ________________________________ From: Clifford Heath To:
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 9, 2011
                                            Thanks !!! I´ll do some tests and feedback my results.
                                             
                                            Bolivar


                                            From: Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@...>
                                            To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 6:49:08 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [water-rockets] Re: 10 Challenges

                                             

                                            On 09/04/2011, at 4:34 AM, Bolivar Vivacqua wrote:
                                            > I would like to use your simulator but i need some understanding of
                                            > certain variables and it´s impact in the fly.
                                            >
                                            > 1 - What is Nozzle loss factor and how to calculated or estimate?

                                            It's hard to know for sure without measuring it. Bruce Berggren
                                            estimated it once
                                            using static flow tests, and various bottle shapes all came out around
                                            0.16. If you
                                            have a nozzle with a poor inlet shape, you might use a larger value,
                                            otherwise
                                            just leave it alone.

                                            > 2 - What is Coefficient of Drag and how to calculate or estimate?

                                            Again, this requires measuring, and the best way to measure it is to
                                            fly your
                                            rocket and co-relate the apogee time, or even better, crashdown time,
                                            assuming
                                            you have no recovery device. In other words, you back-fit it.

                                            Although this sounds like a way to guarantee that the simulation matches
                                            reality, in fact we've done a number of experiments that show that in
                                            most
                                            respects, the simulator does work pretty well. CD is the main unknown,
                                            so
                                            back-fitting it is reasonable.

                                            Water rockets vary widely between about 0.6 down to below 0.2.

                                            > 3 - What is Initial speed (for second stage) and how to define or
                                            > estimate??

                                            If you are launching a single-stage rocket, you have zero initial speed.
                                            Because my sim only calculates one stage, you can set it up to compute
                                            the boost phase of a two-stage rocket, then extract the "burnout
                                            velocity"
                                            and altitude from that sim, and use it as the starting point for the
                                            second
                                            stage.

                                            > When I'm using a launcher type quick release (Like gardena), the
                                            > parameters I use to launch tube length and diameter.

                                            A quick-release launcher doesn't have a launch tube, so use zero for
                                            launch tube length. The nozzle diameter is the internal size of the
                                            Gardena spout. Don't worry if you can't measure it accurately, as it
                                            doesn't affect the final altitude much, mainly the rate of acceleration.

                                            Clifford Heath.


                                          • George
                                            Hi Guys, I ve finished putting together the 10 Challenges article here: http://www.aircommandrockets.com/10_Challenges.htm
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 16, 2011
                                              Hi Guys,

                                              I've finished putting together the 10 Challenges article here: http://www.aircommandrockets.com/10_Challenges.htm 

                                              The main criteria for these challenges was to allow them all to be completed at the local park. One of the main drawbacks of going very high or on long duration flights is that you need access to a very large field which restricts a lot of potential rocketeers. Being able to do them at the local park means you don't have to travel far, and easily attempt them when weather allows.

                                              I've also decided that people can claim existing flights if they satisfy the challenge criteria. Each challenge also has two levels leading up to the main challenge to let people set easier goals first.

                                              Feedback is always welcome. So who is up for a challenge or two? :)

                                              Cheers

                                              - George
                                            • Helen Brown
                                              This is a silly question.. How do we join you in this great quest? Helen Brown ________________________________ From: George To:
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 16, 2011
                                                This is a silly question..
                                                 
                                                How do we join you in this great quest?
                                                 
                                                Helen Brown


                                                From: George <air.command@...>
                                                To: water-rockets@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 9:58:11 AM
                                                Subject: [water-rockets] Re: 10 Challenges

                                                 

                                                Hi Guys,

                                                I've finished putting together the 10 Challenges article here: http://www.aircommandrockets.com/10_Challenges.htm 

                                                The main criteria for these challenges was to allow them all to be completed at the local park. One of the main drawbacks of going very high or on long duration flights is that you need access to a very large field which restricts a lot of potential rocketeers. Being able to do them at the local park means you don't have to travel far, and easily attempt them when weather allows.

                                                I've also decided that people can claim existing flights if they satisfy the challenge criteria. Each challenge also has two levels leading up to the main challenge to let people set easier goals first.

                                                Feedback is always welcome. So who is up for a challenge or two? :)

                                                Cheers

                                                - George

                                              • Ralph Oborn
                                                WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW 1. They all seem so easy and doable when given as a simple challenge. 2. How did you
                                                Message 23 of 26 , May 16, 2011
                                                  WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW

                                                  1. They all seem so easy and doable when given as a simple challenge.
                                                  2. How did you create your patches? They are beautiful.
                                                   
                                                  Ralph
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   


                                                   
                                                  On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:58 AM, George <air.command@...> wrote:


                                                  Hi Guys,

                                                  I've finished putting together the 10 Challenges article here: http://www.aircommandrockets.com/10_Challenges.htm 

                                                  The main criteria for these challenges was to allow them all to be completed at the local park. One of the main drawbacks of going very high or on long duration flights is that you need access to a very large field which restricts a lot of potential rocketeers. Being able to do them at the local park means you don't have to travel far, and easily attempt them when weather allows.

                                                  I've also decided that people can claim existing flights if they satisfy the challenge criteria. Each challenge also has two levels leading up to the main challenge to let people set easier goals first.

                                                  Feedback is always welcome. So who is up for a challenge or two? :)

                                                  Cheers

                                                  - George


                                                • George
                                                  Hi Helen, It s just a matter of choosing the challenge(s) you d like to attempt and having a go. It would be good to document the attempt to share with others.
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 16, 2011
                                                    Hi Helen,

                                                    It's just a matter of choosing the challenge(s) you'd like to attempt and having a go. It would be good to document the attempt to share with others. Blogs are easy to set up and post pictures to, or simply post them to the forum. I will also add a link to the attempt on the challenge page to make it easier for people to find. Questions about the challenge can always be posted on this forum.

                                                    Did you have a particular one in mind?

                                                    Cheers

                                                    - George

                                                    --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Helen Brown <brownie_teach@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > This is a silly question..
                                                    >
                                                    > How do we join you in this great quest?
                                                    >
                                                    > Helen Brown
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • George
                                                    hee hee.. I hope they are not too easy. Though I think the Materials challenge will be interesting, I may have a go of that one myself, I have no idea how to
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , May 16, 2011
                                                      hee hee.. I hope they are not too easy. Though I think the Materials challenge will be interesting, I may have a go of that one myself, I have no idea how to build a stable rocket without tape or glue. It pretty much has to be a single bottle pressure chamber with a full nozzle so lots of takeoff speed, and nothing attached with tape!

                                                      The patches were just done in Microsoft Visio.

                                                      - George

                                                      --- In water-rockets@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...> wrote:
                                                      > 1. They all seem so easy and doable when given as a simple challenge.
                                                      > 2. How did you create your patches? They are beautiful.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Ralph
                                                      >
                                                    • George
                                                      Hi guys, a couple of weeks ago we finally decided to try one of these challenges ourselves. We had a go at the materials challenge. The challenge was to make a
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 28, 2013
                                                        Hi guys, a couple of weeks ago we finally decided to try one of these challenges ourselves. We had a go at the materials challenge. The challenge was to make a rocket only from PET bottles without using any tape or glue or any other materials.

                                                        It seemed simple enough, but as it turns out we underestimated the amount of stress components are put under due to the acceleration and speed one can get from a small rocket with a large nozzle. (we mostly fly restricted nozzles) As a result on our first attempt the fins ripped right off during burnout. On our second flight we reduced the launch pressure down to 80psi in order to keep the acceleration down to about 100G. This time the rocket flew a nice ballistic trajectory, but again the fins ripped off when the rocket hit the ground.

                                                        We are going to have another go at this challenge and try to keep the fins on. I think we will try cutting slots into the fin can and inserting the fins through those and then heat welding them from the inside so that way the welds are not carrying the entire load. I also want to try making the fin can fairing a little more streamlined as this one has a lot of base drag.

                                                        I've put some details from the challenge here:  http://www.aircommandrockets.com/day131.htm
                                                        and a short video is here: http://youtu.be/QDZJdNnQRvY 

                                                        What would be really interesting is to come up with some kind of a recovery system made only from PET, maybe air breaks that pop out, or helicopter blades triggered by an air flap. I think it should be doable. Any suggestions?

                                                        - George
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