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Looking at clusters for Ming

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  • mwwalsh
    William, I looked at other confirmed R-L21* folks and found a couple of potential clusters. This first group (including yourself of course) has 391=10 389-1=14
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 30 7:14 AM
      William,

      I looked at other confirmed R-L21* folks and found a couple of potential clusters.

      This first group (including yourself of course) has 391=10 389-1=14 YCAIIb=24. These are all fairly slow moving markers.
      Graham unk 6AUEE
      MacLahian Strathclyde ATNT8
      McGregor Scotland 3JPTP
      Ming Wales Z8YYY
      Rogers unk DHU8U
      Rogers unk S3NK2

      Here is another possible cluster for you 391=10, 389-1/2=14/30, 444=13.
      Cameron Highlands VX3SQ
      Farris unknown RVQYH
      Ming Wales Z8YYY
      Wilson Scotland H39UG

      Does anyone have any comments about possible relationships? Perhaps a Scottish and Welsh connection? An ancient Briton? or Pict? or Irish movements? I'm not familiar with surname origins. Anything popping out?

      As more people do 67 marker upgrades, I think some of these clusters will be come clearer and will either crystalize or fall apart.

      Regards,
      Mike

      P.S. I like your email close.

      --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "w.l.ming" <mingwv@...> wrote:
      >
      > Douglas,� I have done the 67 marker and deep clade test and haven't learned a thing.� Now, what is the 67 DC test and what will it tell me?�
      >
      > Keep well, Work hard, Trust God.
      >
      > William L. Ming
      >
      > --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Douglas Neslund <justusla@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Douglas Neslund <justusla@...>
      > Subject: Re: [walesdna] Re: Researching 17-14-10 cluster and R-M222 subclade similarities
      > To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 8:57 AM
      >
      >
      >
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      > At this point in time, with so relatively few people testing at all, you should definitely do the 67-marker and deep clade tests.
      >
      >
      > As one who has done that, and much-much more, and found no one remotely close at the 67-marker level, I strongly urge the 67+DC for all who can afford it.
      >
      >
      > Douglas
      >
      >
      >
      > On Jun 29, 2009, at 6:52 AM, David.E Smith wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > +=+=+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+= +=+=+=*
      > Reply Requested:� Tuesday, June 30, 2009
      > +=+=+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+= +=+=+=*
      > Hey, I think I'm an R1B1b2, should I get the "deep clade" test? David
      > �
      >
      > David E.Smith
      > TDOT/Reg #3/Right of Way/Excess Land�
      > �6601 Centennial Bvld, 2nd Floor
      > Nashville, TN 37243
      > David.E.Smith@ tn.gov
      > (615) 350-4229
      > fax (615) 350-4291/4410
      >
      > >>> On 6/28/2009 at 10:06 PM, in message <291490.66230. qm@web56605. mail.re3. yahoo.com>, Susan Rosine <basenji_luvr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
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      > Thanks Mike! That was a great and super helpful explanation! !! I agree, Deep Clade testing is critical if you are predicted to be R1b1b2. There is really no way to tell for certain which subclade R1b1b2 anyone is, without the deep clade test.
      >
      > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@gmail. com>
      > Subject: [walesdna] Re: Researching 17-14-10 cluster and R-M222 subclade similarities
      > To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
      > Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 3:57 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Susan, you said, "My only thought was that if we found someone who was 17-14-10 and was P312*, wouldn't that mean that the 17-14-10 cluster is not a true cluster at all?"
      >
      > My response is that Y DNA haplotype clusters are only potential groups of related people. Generally, we are "attempting" to identify a true subclade with a true founding patriarch.
      >
      > Probably, few clusters in R1b1b2 are perfect. Over time, we may learn that some of the members of the 17-14-10 cluster really belong somewhere else and that they only appeared to be in a the same subclade because their haplotype converged into a match with the rest of the cluster.
      >
      > SNP's are much more reliable at identifying a subclade because they are unique events, that happen (at least practically) only one time ever. DYS STR mutations, on the other hand, vary up or down to diverge or converge from or to where they started.
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Unique_event_ polymorphism
      >
      > I think it is probable that most 17-14-10 are R-L21*, but it is also quite possible that some 17-14-10 people are not R-L21*. If several fall under a different haplogroup, say R-P312* or R-U106, it doesn't mean meant the 17-14-10's within R-L21* aren't legitimately clustered, it just means that there may be a totally coincidentally separate 17-14-10 clusters, one for R-L21* folks and one for R-P312*.
      >
      > Remember, the modal (most common) haplotype pattern for R-L21*, R-P312*, R-U106, R-U152 are all the same, the Western Atlantic Modal. There is a lot of commonality within the R1b1b2 (R-M269) umbrella.
      >
      > Do you see why I think deep clade R testing is essential? Genetic genealogist Vince Vizzchero described R1b1b2 (R-M269,) except R-M222, as a "blob" haplotype-wise. The deep clade R SNP tests help us break up the blob into smaller groups to cut down on the clutter.
      >
      > Mike
      >
      > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "basenji_luvr" <basenji_luvr@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hmmm, I need to think about this. Hughes was saying he thought that the particular cluster (which we assume to be L21*) was close to R-M222, which is what I am NOT seeing/understandin . My only thought was that if we found someone who was 17-14-10 and was P312*, wouldn't that mean that the 17-14-10 cluster is not a true cluster at all? And wouldn't it also mean it was not close/similar to R-M222?
      > >
      > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I'm only looking from L21+ on down. The first R-M222 man's father was an R-L21*. If my thinking is correct, all R-L21* people are more closely related to all R-M222 than even the closest related R-P312* man because there had to be at least one generation from R-P312* to R-L21*. In other words R-P312* folks can't be closer related to R-M222 folks than R-L21*.
      > > >
      > > > I view the 448=17, 456=14, 450=10 haplotype signature as relevant only within a subclade, at least as far determining clusters that might be true, more granular subclades. Perhaps there should be an R-L21* 448=17, 456=14, 450=10 cluster and an R-P312* 448=17, 456=14, 450=10 cluster, but they are two separate clusters. All R-L21* folks, whether they are 17-14-10 or not, are more closely related to each other than an R-L21* 17-14-10 and an R-P312* 17-14-10 (if there are any) man, even if the R-L21* and R-P312* 17-14-10 men are 67/67 matches.... that's just convergence at work.
      > > >
      > > > I think that is all correct. Let me know if you think my logic is off, but I think it of it as just a giant family tree where SNP's are better branch markers than haplotype signatures.
      > > >
      > > > Mike
      > > >
      > > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, Susan Rosine <basenji_luvr@ > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > So basically, they are NOT similar. 17-14-10 is distinctly different from M222. So the likelihood of ever finding a 17-14-10 man who is M222 has to be close to zero. Question is, can we find a P312* man? Or is 17-14-10 ONLY in L21*?
      > > > >
      > > > > --- On Thu, 6/25/09, mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@>
      > > > > Subject: [walesdna] Researching 17-14-10 cluster and R-M222 subclade similarities
      > > > > To: walesdna@yahoogroup s.com
      > > > > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 3:55 PM
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I followed up on this topic to see if I could find anything. Vince Vizzachero, a respected genetic geneaologist, told me that the primary differentiating marker for R-M222 is DYS481=25.
      > > > >
      > > > > I ran the query of the 329 67 marker confirmed R-L21* haplotypes that I could find that have 481 as 25, plus or minus one.
      > > > >
      > > > > Here they are:
      > > > > ys2RNBW Ashley - England
      > > > > ysNUKXT Blanshard - North Carolina, USA
      > > > > ft141655 Bretheim - Seattle, Washington, USA
      > > > > ft137235 Robert Caldwell, b.1750, York County, PA
      > > > > ysBRSW3 Dickens - Unknown
      > > > > ft11435 John Elliott, b. 1878, Donegal, Ireland
      > > > > ft36039 John Gough, 1805, Gilford, County Down, Ireland
      > > > > ft96185 Michael Hannan, b.c. 1847, Dublin, Ireland
      > > > > ft132486 Stephen Harding b 1623 MA d 1698 RI
      > > > > ft74975 Griffith Humphrey, b.1792, Llangwnnadl, Caernarvon
      > > > > ft97610 Mogue Kehoe b. 1799 Co. Wexford, Ireland
      > > > > ft100219 Martin Kelly b 1862
      > > > > ft44048 Richard Lewis, b.1592 Monmouthshire, Wales
      > > > > ft16114 John McLea, b. 1790, Isle of Bute, Scotland
      > > > > ft12704 Hugh McKean, Dunluce, County Antrim
      > > > > ft33333 Thomas Meek 1708-1776 near Cearfoss,Hagerstown , MD
      > > > > ysV6MVZ Miller - Coupar Angus, Angus, Scotland
      > > > > ysKKYYY Mitchell - Indiana, USA
      > > > > ft133418 Nevins - Galway City, Ireland
      > > > > ftN29988 Anders Nielsen, Vejle Amt, Denmark
      > > > > ft74772 Thomas Phillips, Beverly, Randolph Co., West Va.
      > > > > ysU7VY3 Pruner - Unknown
      > > > > ft19920 Ephraim Stephens, bc1710 Scotland (ancient Welsh?)
      > > > > ft132540 John Traynor, c.1798, Ireland, Co Cavan
      > > > > ft8016 Warner - Unknown
      > > > >
      > > > > I couldn't find anyone of the confirmed R-L21* folks with the 17-14-10 signature, but there was a Welshman or two in the list above.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@ .> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thank you for the update, Guy.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I find it interesting that Robert Hughes said "the Ui Neill people are reasonably close to the Wales & Anglo-Saxons R-17-14-10 DNA signature."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My understanding is that the Ui Neill group is R-M222. I have the R-L21* haplotype information downloaded and can easily compare the 17-14-10 haplotypes in R-L21* with whatever the Ui Neill "signature" is. Does anyway know?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My understanding is that the Northwest Irish R-M222 modal is at Ysearch M5UKQ. I looked and the nearest I can tell is that the key off-modal STR values are
      > > > > > > (great than the modal) at DYS390, < for DYS392, DYS481=25, < for DYS448 and < for DYS413a-
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Is that the right criteria for a Northwest Irish R-M222 guy? If so, I'll look for R-L21* that have something similar.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Mike
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "Guy Sloop" <Welshdragon62@ > wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Here's another interesting letter from Robert Hughes on our 17-14-10 cluster.
      > > > > > > Enjoy,
      > > > > > > Guy
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > > > From: Robert Hughes
      > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 7:05 PM
      > > > > > > To: robert PYP6F teamwales.robert
      > > > > > > Cc: robert_hughes6@
      > > > > > > Subject: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames June 2009
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > email 24-June-09
      > > > > > > R-17-14-10
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > In his �Walk through the Y�, snp sequencing research project that Thomas Krahn is conducting at FTDNA�s Houston, Texas lab, there are three people signed up (Grier, McGonigal and Mannion) who are R-M222+ members or part of the North West Irish cluster , the Ui Neill.
      > > > > > > That�s good for us because the Ui Neill people are reasonably close to the Wales & Anglo-Saxon�s R-17-14-10 DNA signature.
      > > > > > > To the best of my knowledge, no one in the Wales Modal 1 (the R-17-14-10 group, S9R4J) has signed on to the WTY project but there is a person in the Wales Modal 2 group signed on with the project. The Wales Modal 2 (WFF6T in ysearch.org) is the DNA signature for my Cadwgon of Wales lineage spreadsheet. This surname lineage (Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd) was part of an early line of High Kings of Wales.
      > > > > .......
      > > > > > > Regards, Robert
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
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