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Re: Are you "Welsh" if you're R1b1b2 null 425?

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  • mwwalsh
    I don t know is my answer to the Are you Welsh if you re R1b1b2 null 425? question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
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      I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.

      Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?

      Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.

      Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith.dna.rdgriffith.com/research/Cardiganshire/PEDIGREE.pdf It's a pretty neat document.

      Mike

      * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.

      --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rdgriffith44" <rdg@...> wrote:
      >
      > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
      > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
      > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
      > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
      > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
      > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
      > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
      > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
      >
      > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
      > of 425.
      >
    • rdgriffith44
      Answers to your questions are yes and yes. I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever. Since my
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Answers to your questions are yes and yes.  I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever.  Since my Griffith(s) forebears lived in Wales for over 500 years, they probably have the right to call themselves WelshÂ…irrespective of where their ancestors might have arisen.  Otherwise, you can also eliminate everyone other than the aboriginal tribes who populated pre-ice-age Britian before arrival of the Celts.

         

        There are three participants in the Griffith DNA project who definitely descend from the line documented in the Pedigree publication.  One of the participants (not me) has a solid trail of primary documentation back to Griffith Griffiths, one of three brothers who emigrated in 1717.  He and I are a 37-37 match.  He is descended from Griffith's son Abel; I'm descended from son William. The third participant has a genetic distance of 2.  We're not sure where our connection lies.


        --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.
        >
        > Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?
        >
        > Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.
        >
        > Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith.dna.rdgriffith.com/research/Cardiganshire/PEDIGREE.pdf It's a pretty neat document.
        >
        > Mike
        >
        > * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.
        >
        > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rdgriffith44" rdg@ wrote:
        > >
        > > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
        > > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
        > > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
        > > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
        > > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
        > > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
        > > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
        > > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
        > >
        > > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
        > > of 425.
        > >
        >
      • Susan Rosine
        Since I was the one who started this discussion thread, I should probably say that if any of you have traced your line back to Wales, then you have Welsh
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
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          Since I was the one who started this discussion thread, I should probably say that if any of you have traced your line back to Wales, then you have Welsh ancestry!!! No one knows who the original people were who lived in the area we now call Wales. What language they spoke, what their DNA was--it is all a mystery.
           
          One aspect of our Wales DNA project is to study the various haplogroups that are in Wales, and see if we can figure out where they came from. For example, the E haplogroup (all subclades). Was it brought in when the Romans occupied the island?  How about I1 and I2? I1 is actually not that old; it probably came to Wales at a later time--could have been brought in by the Vikings, Normans, etc. I2 might be one of the oldest haplogroups in Wales. And R1b1b2 may've been brought by the Celts, or Bell Beaker folk. We may even be able to narrow it down further at some point in the future. The Romans gave names to several tribes in the area of Wales. One was the Silures. They were said to have dark curly hair. It has been thought perhaps they came from Iberia. Well now, there is lots of R-P132* in Iberia--right now it is far ahead of R-L21*.  So, is it possible that the Silures were really from Iberia, and were R-P312*??? Are the men who are R-P312* descendents of that tribe?
           
          So, forgive me when I put "Welsh" in quotations, or when I speak of "invaders". I simply mean that we MIGHT be able to determine at some point, that certain haplogroups likely arrived at certain times with certain tribes or immigrants. Most of my Welsh lines I've only been able to trace back to the 1600's or 1700's. So, are they "old Welsh" or "new Welsh"? I don't know. Some of them could be "invaders" but they are all still Welsh to me!!!
           
          Susan

          --- On Mon, 6/15/09, rdgriffith44 <rdg@...> wrote:

          From: rdgriffith44 <rdg@...>
          Subject: [walesdna] Re: Are you "Welsh" if you're R1b1b2 null 425?
          To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:21 PM

          Answers to your questions are yes and yes.  I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever.  Since my Griffith(s) forebears lived in Wales for over 500 years, they probably have the right to call themselves Welsh…irrespective of where their ancestors might have arisen.  Otherwise, you can also eliminate everyone other than the aboriginal tribes who populated pre-ice-age Britian before arrival of the Celts.

           

          There are three participants in the Griffith DNA project who definitely descend from the line documented in the Pedigree publication.  One of the participants (not me) has a solid trail of primary documentation back to Griffith Griffiths, one of three brothers who emigrated in 1717.  He and I are a 37-37 match.  He is descended from Griffith's son Abel; I'm descended from son William. The third participant has a genetic distance of 2.  We're not sure where our connection lies.


          --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.
          >
          > Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?
          >
          > Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.
          >
          > Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith .dna.rdgriffith. com/research/ Cardiganshire/ PEDIGREE. pdf It's a pretty neat document.
          >
          > Mike
          >
          > * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.
          >
          > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "rdgriffith44" rdg@ wrote:
          > >
          > > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
          > > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
          > > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
          > > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
          > > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
          > > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
          > > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
          > > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
          > >
          > > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
          > > of 425.
          > >
          >

        • dcleatond@aol.com
          Who are the very mixed Welsh people today - found worldwide like many others???According to recent Y DNA Research in UK/ Chester and North Wales, and in the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
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            Who are the very mixed Welsh people today - found worldwide like many others???According to recent Y DNA Research in UK/ Chester and North Wales, and in the Balkans at Pristina. And I am of the E3b1a Haplogroup - and now in a new M Classification, and  will very possibly be related to the E3b1a Roman Soldiers in all these places it seems.
             
            But I have a Welsh family and Welsh Border history in my Cleaton name in the Llanidloes area of Mid-Wales , and perhaps to a Roger de Cleaton in Shelve in Salop in 1414, of Norman origins?
             
            And also to the Roman E3b Soldiers in the Legions based in Germany and then in Chester, and many other areas back to Italy and Africa, long before the Romans were here in Wales 2000 years ago?? WE ARE  INCOMERS IN WALES, from before the Ice Ages.........The CELT/ KELT  label is a Victorian tag to the P an Q Celts from Central Europe, at Hallstat in Austria, and La Tene in Switerland......So do theWestern Iberian Welsh have their own Tribes here now??.
             
            With thanks to Brian Picton Swann and many others.
             
            Dennis Cleaton, in Powys, Mid Wales,   dcleatond@...
          • Robert Powell
            As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a very good
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
            As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean
            the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a
            very good British paper that used DNA to look at the Anglo-Saxon
            invasion that drove the Celtic people out of most of England and into
            Wales and Scotland. When you read it, be careful in that the British
            line up their DNA markers in a different order than in America, so pay
            attention to the DNA marker numbers rather than the order that they are in.
          • basenji_luvr
            I think this is a well researched paper, and I ve read it before. But, a word of caution. The paper is from January 2002, which seems recent, but in gegenetic
            Message 6 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
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              I think this is a well researched paper, and I've read it before. But, a word of caution. The paper is from January 2002, which seems recent, but in gegenetic genealogy the year 2002 is almost "antique"!!! Much more has been discovered since the paper was written. I'd like to see the study re-done using the latest STR and SNP data. If you look carefully, you'll see that the haplogroups they studied don't all even have the same names now, and many have been divided up into further subclades. It would be fascinating to get the newest data for these same samples and see if the analysis still holds.

              --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, Robert Powell <rpowell@...> wrote:
              >
              > As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean
              > the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a
              > very good British paper that used DNA to look at the Anglo-Saxon
              > invasion that drove the Celtic people out of most of England and into
              > Wales and Scotland. When you read it, be careful in that the British
              > line up their DNA markers in a different order than in America, so pay
              > attention to the DNA marker numbers rather than the order that they are in.
              >
            • Robert Powell
              I don t follow why the study being 7 years old changes anything. You mentioned that much more has been discovered since . Could you provide that information?
              Message 7 of 14 , Jun 17, 2009
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                I don't follow why the study being 7 years old changes anything. You
                mentioned that 'much more has been discovered since'. Could you provide
                that information? I would be interested in any new studies or
                information on Welsh DNA sequences.

                I don't understand why you wonder if the analysis still holds. The study
                only used six of the DNA markers while today we have 25, 37, and more.
                But that does not change the results of what they obtained. For example,
                27.5% of the population of Llangfini has Haplogroup 1, which is the
                sequence of 14-12-24-11-13-13. It doesn't matter if you could subdivide
                that better. The fact still remains that people with that sequence has a
                close affinity for Wales. So if you had more DNA markers you could
                subdivide that population further, but it does not change that this
                sequence is very prevalent in Langfini.
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