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Two Y lines in NW Wales: E and R1b; female Cardiganshire H5

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  • Larry Jones
    Bore da, list! On my male line, I, like Dave Matthews, another new member, am E1b1b1a2. I have already had the advanced tests and am a V-13. That line runs
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 15, 2009
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      Bore da, list!

      On my male line, I, like Dave Matthews, another new member, am E1b1b1a2. I have already had the advanced tests and am a V-13. That line runs to John Jones, Llanddaniel Fab, Anglesey in 1800.

      On my mitochondrial side, I have done the entire mitochondrial DNA and am an H5, but not an H5a, the most common type. This line

      I have got my cousin to submit the Humphrey y-DNA from another ancestor of mine, whose line runs to Aberdaron at the end of the Lleyn peninsula in Caernarvonshire in 1790. He is R1b1b2a1b5 or R-L21 for short.

      Hwyl, Larry in Seattle
    • mwwalsh
      Some Hg I folks may be the original hunter-gatherers of Wales, although most Hg I in Wales are probably immigrants. However, the earliest farmers in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Some Hg I folks may be the original hunter-gatherers of Wales, although most Hg I in Wales are probably immigrants.

        However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13 folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who started building megaliths.
        "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
        the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa Culture." The
        term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always referring
        to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
        Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
        have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
        from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed Ware.”
        http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Lancaster.pdf

        Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come-lately's compared to you and Dave Matthews.


        --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Jones" <cblarc@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bore da, list!
        >
        > On my male line, I, like Dave Matthews, another new member, am E1b1b1a2. I have already had the advanced tests and am a V-13. That line runs to John Jones, Llanddaniel Fab, Anglesey in 1800.
        >
        > On my mitochondrial side, I have done the entire mitochondrial DNA and am an H5, but not an H5a, the most common type. This line
        >
        > I have got my cousin to submit the Humphrey y-DNA from another ancestor of mine, whose line runs to Aberdaron at the end of the Lleyn peninsula in Caernarvonshire in 1790. He is R1b1b2a1b5 or R-L21 for short.
        >
        > Hwyl, Larry in Seattle
        >
      • Dave Matthews
        Thanks for the information! I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email recently sent by Susan: We wanted to let you know that a
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 16, 2009
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          Thanks for the information!

          I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email recently sent by Susan:

          "We wanted to let you know that a study is being conducted regarding
          your haplogroup "E1b1b1" and its occurrence in Wales.  The study is
          specifically looking at E1b1b1a2.  Only a few of you have taken the
          Upgrade Deep Clade Test to see if you are E1b1b1a2, or some other
          form of E1b1b1. Most of you are just PREDICTED by FTDNA to be E1b1b1.
          Here are the two articles regarding the study.
           
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm  http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html  "

          So I will believe that my ancestors were copper miners, and that my ancestry includes monolith builders. <g>

          Dave


          --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:

                                      ~snip~
          > However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13 folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who started building megaliths.
          > "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
          > the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa Culture." The
          > term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always referring
          > to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
          > Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
          > have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
          > from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed Ware.”
          > http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Lancaster.pdf
          >
          > Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come-lately's compared to you and Dave Matthews.

        • basenji_luvr
          Hello Dave! Welcome to our group!! I m glad my email inspired you. I think ALL the haplogroups in Wales are very interesting! Since the various E subclades
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 16, 2009
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            Hello Dave! Welcome to our group!! I'm glad my email inspired you. I think ALL the haplogroups in Wales are very interesting! Since the various E subclades are not as numerous as the R1b1b2 subclades, it does seem to make the study of them easier. I'm looking forward to hearing about the results of the E1b1b1a2 study. I bet it will give us a lot of new information!!
            Susan

            --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Matthews" <dave@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the information!
            >
            > I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email
            > recently sent by Susan:
            >
            > "We wanted to let you know that a study is being conducted regarding
            > your haplogroup "E1b1b1" and its occurrence in Wales. The study is
            > specifically looking at E1b1b1a2. Only a few of you have taken the
            > Upgrade Deep Clade Test to see if you are E1b1b1a2, or some other
            > form of E1b1b1. Most of you are just PREDICTED by FTDNA to be E1b1b1.
            > Here are the two articles regarding the study.
            >
            > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm
            > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm>
            > http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html
            > <http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html>
            > "
            >
            > So I will believe that my ancestors were copper miners, and that my
            > ancestry includes monolith builders. <g>
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
            >
            > ~snip~
            > > However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13
            > folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who
            > started building megaliths.
            > > "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
            > > the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa
            > Culture." The
            > > term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always
            > referring
            > > to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
            > > Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
            > > have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
            > > from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed
            > Ware.”
            > > http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Lancaster.pdf
            > >
            > > Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come-lately's compared to
            > you and Dave Matthews.
            >
          • brian swann
            Dear Susan, All I probably should do this - but I am really busy at present. Someone should draw the attention of the University of Sheffield Group to the
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 16, 2009
            Message
            Dear Susan, All
             
            I probably should do this - but I am really busy at present.  Someone should draw the attention of the University of Sheffield Group to the JoGG Paper on the ISOGG Website:
             
            Stephen C. Bird, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 2007, 3(2):26-46.
             
            They are probably unaware of it.
             
            I think the E3b1a2 designation of this Haplogroup is now obsolete - and I did exchange a couple of emails with Stephen Bird last year - as I got pulled onto a BBC Wales News Bulletin to talk about all this as a "DNA Expert".  My wife's cousin - who lives just outside Bridgend - was amazed to see me on the Wales News Channel one evening for about 1 minute.
             
            Also the reference back to Weale's 2002 paper reminds me of this diagram - which I know I have shared with Susan Rosine before.  I find this very useful when talking about Haplogroups in Britain.  It is principally drawn from Capelli's 2003 paper (Y-Chromosome Census of Britain), but does include Weale's 2002 results as well.  It is the best visual representation that I know of the Haplogroup mix across Britain - although the papers by Kevin D. Campbell such as Geographic Patterns of Haplogroup R1b in the British Isles, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 2007, 3:1-13 also have some nice diagrams in them.
             
            Castlerea in the centre of Ireland is the comparator for the rest of the British Isles, as it was never invaded by the Romans, Vikings, etc.  Haverfordwest is the closest comparator in the British Isles to Castlerea, Llanidloes is appreciably more cosmopolitan in its variety of Haplogroups, as also is Llangefni in Anglesey.
             
            Classic story - picture says 100 words.
             
            Brian

            Brian Picton Swann
            ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales

            -----Original Message-----
            From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of basenji_luvr
            Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:32 PM
            To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [walesdna] Re: Two Y lines in NW Wales: E and R1b; female Cardiganshire H5

            Hello Dave! Welcome to our group!! I'm glad my email inspired you. I think ALL the haplogroups in Wales are very interesting! Since the various E subclades are not as numerous as the R1b1b2 subclades, it does seem to make the study of them easier. I'm looking forward to hearing about the results of the E1b1b1a2 study. I bet it will give us a lot of new information! !
            Susan

            --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "Dave Matthews" <dave@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the information!
            >
            > I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email
            > recently sent by Susan:
            >
            > "We wanted to let you know that a study is being conducted regarding
            > your haplogroup "E1b1b1" and its occurrence in Wales. The study is
            > specifically looking at E1b1b1a2. Only a few of you have taken the
            > Upgrade Deep Clade Test to see if you are E1b1b1a2, or some other
            > form of E1b1b1. Most of you are just PREDICTED by FTDNA to be E1b1b1.
            > Here are the two articles regarding the study.
            >
            > http://news. bbc.co.uk/ 1/hi/wales/ north_west/ 8007969.stm
            > <http://news. bbc.co.uk/ 1/hi/wales/ north_west/ 8007969.stm>
            > http://www.shef. ac.uk/archaeolog y/research/ copper-mines/ index.html
            > <http://www.shef. ac.uk/archaeolog y/research/ copper-mines/ index.html>
            > "
            >
            > So I will believe that my ancestors were copper miners, and that my
            > ancestry includes monolith builders. <g>
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
            >
            > ~snip~
            > > However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13
            > folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who
            > started building megaliths.
            > > "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
            > > the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa
            > Culture." The
            > > term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always
            > referring
            > > to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
            > > Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
            > > have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
            > > from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed
            > Ware.”
            > > http://www.jogg. info/51/files/ Lancaster. pdf
            > >
            > > Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come- lately's compared to
            > you and Dave Matthews.
            >

          • David.E Smith
            +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=* Reply Requested: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=* Hi
            Message 6 of 7 , Jun 16, 2009
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              +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=*
              Reply Requested: Wednesday, June 17, 2009
              +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=*
              Hi folks,
              it's David from Tennessee in the States. David

              David E.Smith
              TDOT/Reg #3/Right of Way/Excess Land
              6601 Centennial Bvld, 2nd Floor
              Nashville, TN 37243
              David.E.Smith@...
              (615) 350-4229
              fax (615) 350-4291/4410


              >>> On 6/16/2009 at 2:17 PM, in message <002801c9eeb7$2615ab70$0202a8c0@NORVIC>, "brian swann" <bps@...> wrote:

              [Attachment(s) from brian swann included below]


              Dear Susan, All

              I probably should do this - but I am really busy at present. Someone should draw the attention of the University of Sheffield Group to the JoGG Paper on the ISOGG Website:

              Stephen C. Bird, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 2007, 3(2):26-46.

              They are probably unaware of it.

              I think the E3b1a2 designation of this Haplogroup is now obsolete - and I did exchange a couple of emails with Stephen Bird last year - as I got pulled onto a BBC Wales News Bulletin to talk about all this as a "DNA Expert". My wife's cousin - who lives just outside Bridgend - was amazed to see me on the Wales News Channel one evening for about 1 minute.

              Also the reference back to Weale's 2002 paper reminds me of this diagram - which I know I have shared with Susan Rosine before. I find this very useful when talking about Haplogroups in Britain. It is principally drawn from Capelli's 2003 paper (Y-Chromosome Census of Britain), but does include Weale's 2002 results as well. It is the best visual representation that I know of the Haplogroup mix across Britain - although the papers by Kevin D. Campbell such as Geographic Patterns of Haplogroup R1b in the British Isles, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, 2007, 3:1-13 also have some nice diagrams in them.

              Castlerea in the centre of Ireland is the comparator for the rest of the British Isles, as it was never invaded by the Romans, Vikings, etc. Haverfordwest is the closest comparator in the British Isles to Castlerea, Llanidloes is appreciably more cosmopolitan in its variety of Haplogroups, as also is Llangefni in Anglesey.

              Classic story - picture says 100 words.

              Brian
              Brian Picton Swann
              ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator, England & Wales
              -----Original Message-----
              From: walesdna@yahoogroups.com [mailto:walesdna@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of basenji_luvr
              Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:32 PM
              To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [walesdna] Re: Two Y lines in NW Wales: E and R1b; female Cardiganshire H5


              Hello Dave! Welcome to our group!! I'm glad my email inspired you. I think ALL the haplogroups in Wales are very interesting! Since the various E subclades are not as numerous as the R1b1b2 subclades, it does seem to make the study of them easier. I'm looking forward to hearing about the results of the E1b1b1a2 study. I bet it will give us a lot of new information!!
              Susan

              --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Matthews" <dave@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the information!
              >
              > I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email
              > recently sent by Susan:
              >
              > "We wanted to let you know that a study is being conducted regarding
              > your haplogroup "E1b1b1" and its occurrence in Wales. The study is
              > specifically looking at E1b1b1a2. Only a few of you have taken the
              > Upgrade Deep Clade Test to see if you are E1b1b1a2, or some other
              > form of E1b1b1. Most of you are just PREDICTED by FTDNA to be E1b1b1.
              > Here are the two articles regarding the study.
              >
              > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm
              > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm>
              > http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html
              > <http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html>
              > "
              >
              > So I will believe that my ancestors were copper miners, and that my
              > ancestry includes monolith builders. <g>
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
              >
              > ~snip~
              > > However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13
              > folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who
              > started building megaliths.
              > > "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
              > > the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa
              > Culture." The
              > > term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always
              > referring
              > > to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
              > > Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
              > > have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
              > > from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed
              > Ware.”
              > > http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Lancaster.pdf
              > >
              > > Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come-lately's compared to
              > you and Dave Matthews.
              >
            • lostfrogsrecords
              I had the wonderful experience of communicating with Andrew Grierson, North Wales DNA project, University of Sheffield Medical School. I gave him my DNA
              Message 7 of 7 , Jan 8, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                I had the wonderful experience of communicating with Andrew Grierson, North Wales DNA project, University of Sheffield Medical School.   I gave him my DNA numbers, and the information confirming me as E1b1b1a2*.  He replied that I am unlikely to be related to the members of the study, the copper miners of 4,000 years ago from Greece to Northern Wales.

                So now I know one more ancestry I am unlikely to have.  A few of the Matthews folks here in the US have compared my DNA numbers to theirs, and there is no close relation other than some markers matching.

                My family has no records going back before the 1900's other than memories.  The common thread was that we were of Welsh ancestry, but again, no recorded proof.  About 50 years ago a family member had an ancestry search done, but that was inconclusive and certainly before this DNA science.  The search had located a Matthews relative in New York around 1776, but nothing before that.

                So I'm back with the -belief- that I am of Welsh stock, and I will continue to maintain that I was a monolith builder!

                Dave




                --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Matthews" <dave@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for the information!
                >
                > I was inspired to look further into my DNA history following an email
                > recently sent by Susan:
                >
                > "We wanted to let you know that a study is being conducted regarding
                > your haplogroup "E1b1b1" and its occurrence in Wales. The study is
                > specifically looking at E1b1b1a2. Only a few of you have taken the
                > Upgrade Deep Clade Test to see if you are E1b1b1a2, or some other
                > form of E1b1b1. Most of you are just PREDICTED by FTDNA to be E1b1b1.
                > Here are the two articles regarding the study.
                >
                > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm
                > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm>
                > http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html
                > <http://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/copper-mines/index.html>
                > "
                >
                > So I will believe that my ancestors were copper miners, and that my
                > ancestry includes monolith builders. <g>
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" mwwalsh7@ wrote:
                >
                > ~snip~
                > > However, the earliest farmers in the British Isles may have been E-V13
                > folks. If that is the case they are probably amongst the people who
                > started building megaliths.
                > > "The earliest known manifestation of the Cardial culture in Italy and
                > > the Adriatic is sometimes referred to as the “Impressa
                > Culture." The
                > > term “Impressed Ware” is a more general term, not always
                > referring
                > > to these specific cultures, but it is used by some authors to refer to
                > > Cardial Cultures (Binder 2000, Barnett 2000). Battaglia et al (2009)
                > > have recently suggested that E-V13 lineages came to Southern Italy
                > > from the Balkans along with this early “Neolithic Impressed
                > Ware.”
                > > http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Lancaster.pdf
                > >
                > > Us R1b1b2 type guys may have all been Johnny-come-lately's compared to
                > you and Dave Matthews.
                >
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