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Fw: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames list

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  • Guy Sloop
    Hello WalesDNA group, Here s a e-mail I got from Robert Hughes about our cluster again. Enjoy, Guy ... From: Robert Hughes Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 4:32 PM
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 3, 2009
      Hello WalesDNA group,

      Here's a e-mail I got from Robert Hughes about our cluster again.
      Enjoy,
      Guy

      From: Robert Hughes
      Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 4:32 PM
      To: robert PYP6F teamwales.robert
      Cc: Alton PYP6F Jenkins, Angie and Jerry Gibson PYP6F Nichols/Daniel, Bill Wyman PYP6F, Bob Ashby PYP6F, Brenda Jenkins Coursey PYP6F, Cedric PYP6F Reese, charles W. PYP6F Russell, Watford Hayden family, Christo Heymans PYP6F, Daniela Moneta PYP6F, Dave PYP6F Williams, David PYP6F Gough David Welsh list, Dean PYP6F Ab-Hugh, Dean, Donna Dudley PYP6F, Edgar Hayden PYP6F, Francene PYP6F West group, G. Pettit PYP6F, Guy Sloop PYP6F, Harold Dicks PYP6F, Hennie G. Heymans PYP6F, Isabel Carter PYP6F, Jane Gilbert PYP6F, Jeff PYP6F Pugh, Jeff, Ken Jenkins PYP6F, Laura PYP6F Hayden, laura, Lloyd Ellis PYP6F, Oliver PYP6F Oakley Welsh, Paul Catton PYP6F, Robert Charles Haney, RC PYP6F, Sandra PYP6F Haney Sandra, Spicer PYP6F Spicer, Stephen Emelyn-Jones PYP6F, Welsh list, Steve Hayden PYP6F, Steve PYP6F Hayden Hayden proj in FTDNA, Sue Ashby PYP6F, Tom PYP6F Hayden , FTDNA Hayden proj., Virginia PYP6F Phillips-Smith, Watson PYP6F Pugh
      Subject: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames list

      Hello List members,

         We have added several new surnames to our group so bear with me as I outline our group for those not quite up to speed yet.

         The group was originally identified by Russell Smith in Australia and called the Wales surname cluster for good reason. All of the early members had Welsh patronymic surnames and ancestral origins that led back to Wales .

         As more surnames were added, locations outside of Wales were identified. Other areas now include the Bristol Channel , Somerset , Wessex , Hertfordshire and Norfolk . The known family locations right now form a line stretching from North and South Wales, bypassing Cornwall, but sweeping inland from the coast across southern England, and turning up towards Norfolk.

         The line is shown in red at this link:   http://tinyurl.com/c5ekha   The name for our group was changed to the Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames group to reflect the new records.

      What is going on with those surnames?

         The surnames in our group do not behave like the other UK and Irish surnames such as the North West Irish (the Ui Neill group) or the Leinster Irish clade. These clades generally have appropriately recognizable surnames that can be attributed to their respective clades.

         Our surnames (so far) are a little different in that they seem to reflect the home locations. The names in Wales have Welsh patronymic origins, In Somerset, they reflect a Belgium/French influence, in Hertfordshire a continental Low Country or Benelux origin and in Norfolk , they seem to be Danish reflecting the early Danish expansion into the Norfolk (North Folk) area. Two more names in South Africa may have a Dutch origin.

      Why do I now call us the R-17-14-10 subclade?

         Those three numbers stand for the three allele marker results that, when all three are present, identify the clade. They are DYS448=17, DYS456=14 and DYS450=10. No other Haplogroup R1b group has that combination, making this clade somewhat unique.

      Two views of the group results.

         I have set up a link to ysearch.org that has most (not all) of the individual names that have a ysearch ID number. However, ysearch will not allow me to color code the mismatches from the group modal (ID = S9R4J) nor can I sort the records. All in all, however, it�s still a good site and you can sort of get the feeling of how close your markers are to others in the group. The link is  http://tinyurl.com/dnxzy8   The second site is in Google Docs It�s a beta site so the information will change as I correct or add/delete information but you can get a feel of how close your marker results are to people you did not even know existed. The thing to remember is that all of you share an ancient common ancestor but, outside of your own surname, you are probably not recently related. There are a couple of exceptions. The Google site is slow to come on line but once it does, it works well. It is a work in progress site so let me know when you spot any errors or have any problems. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/r8yzs2

      Britannic Celts?

         It�s hard to tell right now whether the clade is of more recent Welsh origin with gene flow out in England or early British Isle Celts with a DNA signature all across southern England and Wales or gene flow from the continent into the UK . No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales . Cristian Capelli�s 2003 Y chromosome census seems to show both.

      Regards , Robert

       



      Hotmail� has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out.
    • mwwalsh
      Robert says .... No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 3, 2009
        Robert says ".... No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales."

        I'll stick my neck out, although that means little since I'm not a scientist or writing any books. My speculation is that these people are all ancient British folks, parternally speaking. Surnames, be they Welsh or Anglo-Saxon or whatever did not come till much later in time. I've look at the studies who claim heavy Anglo-Saxon invader wipe-outs of prior inhabitants, the Britons, but even in those studies, as much as 50% of the English population still looks like ancient Brythonic. English speaking or not, being pushed west or not, some Britons still remained in England, I feel.

        I think the DNA will help tell the story. I wonder if R-L21* is deep enough SNP testing to differentiate between Briton and Anglo-Saxon?

        --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Sloop" <Welshdragon62@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello WalesDNA group,
        >
        > Here's a e-mail I got from Robert Hughes about our cluster again.
        > Enjoy,
        > Guy
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Robert Hughes
        > Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 4:32 PM
        > To: robert PYP6F teamwales.robert
        > Cc: Alton PYP6F Jenkins, Angie and Jerry Gibson PYP6F Nichols/Daniel, Bill Wyman PYP6F, Bob Ashby PYP6F, Brenda Jenkins Coursey PYP6F, Cedric PYP6F Reese, charles W. PYP6F Russell, Watford Hayden family, Christo Heymans PYP6F, Daniela Moneta PYP6F, Dave PYP6F Williams, David PYP6F Gough David Welsh list, Dean PYP6F Ab-Hugh, Dean, Donna Dudley PYP6F, Edgar Hayden PYP6F, Francene PYP6F West group, G. Pettit PYP6F, Guy Sloop PYP6F, Harold Dicks PYP6F, Hennie G. Heymans PYP6F, Isabel Carter PYP6F, Jane Gilbert PYP6F, Jeff PYP6F Pugh, Jeff, Ken Jenkins PYP6F, Laura PYP6F Hayden, laura, Lloyd Ellis PYP6F, Oliver PYP6F Oakley Welsh, Paul Catton PYP6F, Robert Charles Haney, RC PYP6F, Sandra PYP6F Haney Sandra, Spicer PYP6F Spicer, Stephen Emelyn-Jones PYP6F, Welsh list, Steve Hayden PYP6F, Steve PYP6F Hayden Hayden proj in FTDNA, Sue Ashby PYP6F, Tom PYP6F Hayden , FTDNA Hayden proj., Virginia PYP6F Phillips-Smith, Watson PYP6F Pugh
        > Subject: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames list
        >
        >
        > Hello List members,
        > We have added several new surnames to our group so bear with me as I outline our group for those not quite up to speed yet.
        > The group was originally identified by Russell Smith in Australia and called the Wales surname cluster for good reason. All of the early members had Welsh patronymic surnames and ancestral origins that led back to Wales.
        > As more surnames were added, locations outside of Wales were identified. Other areas now include the Bristol Channel, Somerset, Wessex, Hertfordshire and Norfolk. The known family locations right now form a line stretching from North and South Wales, bypassing Cornwall, but sweeping inland from the coast across southern England, and turning up towards Norfolk.
        > The line is shown in red at this link: http://tinyurl.com/c5ekha The name for our group was changed to the Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames group to reflect the new records.
        > What is going on with those surnames?
        > The surnames in our group do not behave like the other UK and Irish surnames such as the North West Irish (the Ui Neill group) or the Leinster Irish clade. These clades generally have appropriately recognizable surnames that can be attributed to their respective clades.
        > Our surnames (so far) are a little different in that they seem to reflect the home locations. The names in Wales have Welsh patronymic origins, In Somerset, they reflect a Belgium/French influence, in Hertfordshire a continental Low Country or Benelux origin and in Norfolk, they seem to be Danish reflecting the early Danish expansion into the Norfolk (North Folk) area. Two more names in South Africa may have a Dutch origin.
        > Why do I now call us the R-17-14-10 subclade?
        > Those three numbers stand for the three allele marker results that, when all three are present, identify the clade. They are DYS448=17, DYS456=14 and DYS450=10. No other Haplogroup R1b group has that combination, making this clade somewhat unique.
        > Two views of the group results.
        > I have set up a link to ysearch.org that has most (not all) of the individual names that have a ysearch ID number. However, ysearch will not allow me to color code the mismatches from the group modal (ID = S9R4J) nor can I sort the records. All in all, however, it�s still a good site and you can sort of get the feeling of how close your markers are to others in the group. The link is http://tinyurl.com/dnxzy8 The second site is in Google Docs. It�s a beta site so the information will change as I correct or add/delete information but you can get a feel of how close your marker results are to people you did not even know existed. The thing to remember is that all of you share an ancient common ancestor but, outside of your own surname, you are probably not recently related. There are a couple of exceptions. The Google site is slow to come on line but once it does, it works well. It is a work in progress site so let me know when you spot any errors or have any problems. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/r8yzs2
        > Britannic Celts?
        > It�s hard to tell right now whether the clade is of more recent Welsh origin with gene flow out in England or early British Isle Celts with a DNA signature all across southern England and Wales or gene flow from the continent into the UK. No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales. Cristian Capelli�s 2003 Y chromosome census seems to show both.
        > Regards, Robert
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Hotmail� has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
        > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009
        >
      • mwwalsh
        Speaking of more granular SNP s for subclades, is any of the 17-14-10 people in a Walk the Y project? That s the purpose of such a project... find new SNP s
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 4, 2009
          Speaking of more granular SNP's for subclades, is any of the 17-14-10 people in a Walk the Y project? That's the purpose of such a project... find new SNP's to define subclades.

          --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
          >
          > Robert says ".... No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales."
          >
          > I'll stick my neck out, although that means little since I'm not a scientist or writing any books. My speculation is that these people are all ancient British folks, parternally speaking. Surnames, be they Welsh or Anglo-Saxon or whatever did not come till much later in time. I've look at the studies who claim heavy Anglo-Saxon invader wipe-outs of prior inhabitants, the Britons, but even in those studies, as much as 50% of the English population still looks like ancient Brythonic. English speaking or not, being pushed west or not, some Britons still remained in England, I feel.
          >
          > I think the DNA will help tell the story. I wonder if R-L21* is deep enough SNP testing to differentiate between Briton and Anglo-Saxon?
          >
          > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Sloop" <Welshdragon62@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello WalesDNA group,
          > >
          > > Here's a e-mail I got from Robert Hughes about our cluster again.
          > > Enjoy,
          > > Guy
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Robert Hughes
          > > Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 4:32 PM
          > > To: robert PYP6F teamwales.robert
          > > Cc: Alton PYP6F Jenkins, Angie and Jerry Gibson PYP6F Nichols/Daniel, Bill Wyman PYP6F, Bob Ashby PYP6F, Brenda Jenkins Coursey PYP6F, Cedric PYP6F Reese, charles W. PYP6F Russell, Watford Hayden family, Christo Heymans PYP6F, Daniela Moneta PYP6F, Dave PYP6F Williams, David PYP6F Gough David Welsh list, Dean PYP6F Ab-Hugh, Dean, Donna Dudley PYP6F, Edgar Hayden PYP6F, Francene PYP6F West group, G. Pettit PYP6F, Guy Sloop PYP6F, Harold Dicks PYP6F, Hennie G. Heymans PYP6F, Isabel Carter PYP6F, Jane Gilbert PYP6F, Jeff PYP6F Pugh, Jeff, Ken Jenkins PYP6F, Laura PYP6F Hayden, laura, Lloyd Ellis PYP6F, Oliver PYP6F Oakley Welsh, Paul Catton PYP6F, Robert Charles Haney, RC PYP6F, Sandra PYP6F Haney Sandra, Spicer PYP6F Spicer, Stephen Emelyn-Jones PYP6F, Welsh list, Steve Hayden PYP6F, Steve PYP6F Hayden Hayden proj in FTDNA, Sue Ashby PYP6F, Tom PYP6F Hayden , FTDNA Hayden proj., Virginia PYP6F Phillips-Smith, Watson PYP6F Pugh
          > > Subject: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames list
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello List members,
          > > We have added several new surnames to our group so bear with me as I outline our group for those not quite up to speed yet.
          > > The group was originally identified by Russell Smith in Australia and called the Wales surname cluster for good reason. All of the early members had Welsh patronymic surnames and ancestral origins that led back to Wales.
          > > As more surnames were added, locations outside of Wales were identified. Other areas now include the Bristol Channel, Somerset, Wessex, Hertfordshire and Norfolk. The known family locations right now form a line stretching from North and South Wales, bypassing Cornwall, but sweeping inland from the coast across southern England, and turning up towards Norfolk.
          > > The line is shown in red at this link: http://tinyurl.com/c5ekha The name for our group was changed to the Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames group to reflect the new records.
          > > What is going on with those surnames?
          > > The surnames in our group do not behave like the other UK and Irish surnames such as the North West Irish (the Ui Neill group) or the Leinster Irish clade. These clades generally have appropriately recognizable surnames that can be attributed to their respective clades.
          > > Our surnames (so far) are a little different in that they seem to reflect the home locations. The names in Wales have Welsh patronymic origins, In Somerset, they reflect a Belgium/French influence, in Hertfordshire a continental Low Country or Benelux origin and in Norfolk, they seem to be Danish reflecting the early Danish expansion into the Norfolk (North Folk) area. Two more names in South Africa may have a Dutch origin.
          > > Why do I now call us the R-17-14-10 subclade?
          > > Those three numbers stand for the three allele marker results that, when all three are present, identify the clade. They are DYS448=17, DYS456=14 and DYS450=10. No other Haplogroup R1b group has that combination, making this clade somewhat unique.
          > > Two views of the group results.
          > > I have set up a link to ysearch.org that has most (not all) of the individual names that have a ysearch ID number. However, ysearch will not allow me to color code the mismatches from the group modal (ID = S9R4J) nor can I sort the records. All in all, however, it�s still a good site and you can sort of get the feeling of how close your markers are to others in the group. The link is http://tinyurl.com/dnxzy8 The second site is in Google Docs. It�s a beta site so the information will change as I correct or add/delete information but you can get a feel of how close your marker results are to people you did not even know existed. The thing to remember is that all of you share an ancient common ancestor but, outside of your own surname, you are probably not recently related. There are a couple of exceptions. The Google site is slow to come on line but once it does, it works well. It is a work in progress site so let me know when you spot any errors or have any problems. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/r8yzs2
          > > Britannic Celts?
          > > It�s hard to tell right now whether the clade is of more recent Welsh origin with gene flow out in England or early British Isle Celts with a DNA signature all across southern England and Wales or gene flow from the continent into the UK. No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales. Cristian Capelli�s 2003 Y chromosome census seems to show both.
          > > Regards, Robert
          > >
          > > _________________________________________________________________
          > > Hotmail� has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
          > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009
          > >
          >
        • basenji_luvr
          I came across some very interesting information on a DNA-Forums discussion. http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5376&hl= Seems there is a small cluster
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 4, 2009
            I came across some very interesting information on a DNA-Forums discussion. http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5376&hl=

            Seems there is a small cluster of people who are haplogroup R1b1b2 and not U106 (U106-), which likely means they are P312 and possibly L21 or M222. These people have a null value at marker DYS 425.

            From initial research, this cluster of men look to be strongly Irish/Scottish. This cluster may or may not have a SNP of its own. It looks to be a fairly young cluster, possibly only coming into being 1500 years ago!!

            Why do we care? Because we have one man in our Wales DNA project who is in this cluster!! The last name is Roderick. I looked at the Roderick DNA project, and he is in their "Welsh Group 2". The other men in these group all match him, and those who have tested out to marker DYS 425 are also null at that marker. They have only traced their Roderick lineage in Wales back to the 1700s. There is speculation that this family came over from Ireland, or down from Scotland. Obviously it would have to have been before surnames were adopted, because Roderick is a Welsh surname; not Scottish or Irish.

            Of all the men who are some type of R1b1b2 in our project and tested out to 67 markers, Roderick is our only null 425. The important question becomes--ARE THERE OTHERS????? We won't know unless our R1b1b2 men upgrade to 67 markers. Of course a cheaper alternative would be to just order the 425 marker alone. But, the 492 marker, which is also included in the 67 marker panel is also important. 96% of the time, if you have 12 repeats at 492 you are some type of P312 (including L21 and M222). If you have 13 repeats you are very likely to be U106. Of course, nothing is certain unless you do the Deep Clade testing.

            So, to wrap it up---are you really "old timer Welsh"??? Maybe not, if you're in the R1b1b2 U106- Null 425 cluster!!! Just one more reason to upgrade to 67 markers AND do deep clade testing.

            I have to admit I'm envious of the Irish--they have several definite clusters and even the M222 SNP which identifies the Niall of the Nine Hostages clan. They also have way more members in their projects, so much more data. I hope we can catch up, and find some definite Welsh clusters which we can trace back to the Welsh leaders of the distant past.

            Susan
          • mwwalsh
            Guy or anyone, I m assuming this 17-14-10 cluster is all in the R-L21* SNP. Have any of the individuals been found to be L21- ? Of course, anyone with
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 4, 2009
              Guy or anyone,
              I'm assuming this 17-14-10 cluster is all in the R-L21* SNP. Have any of the individuals been found to be L21- ? Of course, anyone with different deep clade SNP test results fits in a different subclade.

              --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
              >
              > Speaking of more granular SNP's for subclades, is any of the 17-14-10 people in a Walk the Y project? That's the purpose of such a project... find new SNP's to define subclades.
              >
              > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Robert says ".... No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales."
              > >
              > > I'll stick my neck out, although that means little since I'm not a scientist or writing any books. My speculation is that these people are all ancient British folks, parternally speaking. Surnames, be they Welsh or Anglo-Saxon or whatever did not come till much later in time. I've look at the studies who claim heavy Anglo-Saxon invader wipe-outs of prior inhabitants, the Britons, but even in those studies, as much as 50% of the English population still looks like ancient Brythonic. English speaking or not, being pushed west or not, some Britons still remained in England, I feel.
              > >
              > > I think the DNA will help tell the story. I wonder if R-L21* is deep enough SNP testing to differentiate between Briton and Anglo-Saxon?
              > >
              > > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "Guy Sloop" <Welshdragon62@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello WalesDNA group,
              > > >
              > > > Here's a e-mail I got from Robert Hughes about our cluster again.
              > > > Enjoy,
              > > > Guy
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Robert Hughes
              > > > Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 4:32 PM
              > > > To: robert PYP6F teamwales.robert
              > > > Cc: Alton PYP6F Jenkins, Angie and Jerry Gibson PYP6F Nichols/Daniel, Bill Wyman PYP6F, Bob Ashby PYP6F, Brenda Jenkins Coursey PYP6F, Cedric PYP6F Reese, charles W. PYP6F Russell, Watford Hayden family, Christo Heymans PYP6F, Daniela Moneta PYP6F, Dave PYP6F Williams, David PYP6F Gough David Welsh list, Dean PYP6F Ab-Hugh, Dean, Donna Dudley PYP6F, Edgar Hayden PYP6F, Francene PYP6F West group, G. Pettit PYP6F, Guy Sloop PYP6F, Harold Dicks PYP6F, Hennie G. Heymans PYP6F, Isabel Carter PYP6F, Jane Gilbert PYP6F, Jeff PYP6F Pugh, Jeff, Ken Jenkins PYP6F, Laura PYP6F Hayden, laura, Lloyd Ellis PYP6F, Oliver PYP6F Oakley Welsh, Paul Catton PYP6F, Robert Charles Haney, RC PYP6F, Sandra PYP6F Haney Sandra, Spicer PYP6F Spicer, Stephen Emelyn-Jones PYP6F, Welsh list, Steve Hayden PYP6F, Steve PYP6F Hayden Hayden proj in FTDNA, Sue Ashby PYP6F, Tom PYP6F Hayden , FTDNA Hayden proj., Virginia PYP6F Phillips-Smith, Watson PYP6F Pugh
              > > > Subject: Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames list
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hello List members,
              > > > We have added several new surnames to our group so bear with me as I outline our group for those not quite up to speed yet.
              > > > The group was originally identified by Russell Smith in Australia and called the Wales surname cluster for good reason. All of the early members had Welsh patronymic surnames and ancestral origins that led back to Wales.
              > > > As more surnames were added, locations outside of Wales were identified. Other areas now include the Bristol Channel, Somerset, Wessex, Hertfordshire and Norfolk. The known family locations right now form a line stretching from North and South Wales, bypassing Cornwall, but sweeping inland from the coast across southern England, and turning up towards Norfolk.
              > > > The line is shown in red at this link: http://tinyurl.com/c5ekha The name for our group was changed to the Wales and Anglo-Saxon surnames group to reflect the new records.
              > > > What is going on with those surnames?
              > > > The surnames in our group do not behave like the other UK and Irish surnames such as the North West Irish (the Ui Neill group) or the Leinster Irish clade. These clades generally have appropriately recognizable surnames that can be attributed to their respective clades.
              > > > Our surnames (so far) are a little different in that they seem to reflect the home locations. The names in Wales have Welsh patronymic origins, In Somerset, they reflect a Belgium/French influence, in Hertfordshire a continental Low Country or Benelux origin and in Norfolk, they seem to be Danish reflecting the early Danish expansion into the Norfolk (North Folk) area. Two more names in South Africa may have a Dutch origin.
              > > > Why do I now call us the R-17-14-10 subclade?
              > > > Those three numbers stand for the three allele marker results that, when all three are present, identify the clade. They are DYS448=17, DYS456=14 and DYS450=10. No other Haplogroup R1b group has that combination, making this clade somewhat unique.
              > > > Two views of the group results.
              > > > I have set up a link to ysearch.org that has most (not all) of the individual names that have a ysearch ID number. However, ysearch will not allow me to color code the mismatches from the group modal (ID = S9R4J) nor can I sort the records. All in all, however, it�s still a good site and you can sort of get the feeling of how close your markers are to others in the group. The link is http://tinyurl.com/dnxzy8 The second site is in Google Docs. It�s a beta site so the information will change as I correct or add/delete information but you can get a feel of how close your marker results are to people you did not even know existed. The thing to remember is that all of you share an ancient common ancestor but, outside of your own surname, you are probably not recently related. There are a couple of exceptions. The Google site is slow to come on line but once it does, it works well. It is a work in progress site so let me know when you spot any errors or have any problems. The link is: http://tinyurl.com/r8yzs2
              > > > Britannic Celts?
              > > > It�s hard to tell right now whether the clade is of more recent Welsh origin with gene flow out in England or early British Isle Celts with a DNA signature all across southern England and Wales or gene flow from the continent into the UK. No one is willing to stick his/her neck out and go on record right now. Many seem to lean towards the DNA signature being that of early Celts who were either absorbed by the Anglo-Saxon expansion after the Romans left the isles or were pushed down south and west into Wales. Cristian Capelli�s 2003 Y chromosome census seems to show both.
              > > > Regards, Robert
              > > >
              > > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > > Hotmail� has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
              > > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • rdgriffith44
              My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37 markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however, my line is proven
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
                My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37 markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however, my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.

                I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value of 425.
              • essyllwg
                Hi, I d be realy interested to see the results of your 67 marker test also. I too trace my paternal ancestry back to Wales but my closest matches were
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
                  Hi,

                  I'd be realy interested to see the results of your 67 marker test also. I too trace my paternal ancestry back to Wales but my closest matches were Irish/Scottish. I had the 67 marker test carried out which proved I was M222+ (Niall of the Nine Hostages et al). It would be fascinating if someone who can trace their descent so far back in Wales would also be M222+. As I've posted previously, it's possible that one of the lines of the Royal Tribes of Wales is M222+. Maybe you could be a piece of the jigsaw that proves it.

                  --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rdgriffith44" <rdg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
                  > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
                  > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
                  > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
                  > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
                  > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
                  > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
                  > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
                  >
                  > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
                  > of 425.
                  >
                • mwwalsh
                  I don t know is my answer to the Are you Welsh if you re R1b1b2 null 425? question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
                    I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.

                    Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?

                    Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.

                    Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith.dna.rdgriffith.com/research/Cardiganshire/PEDIGREE.pdf It's a pretty neat document.

                    Mike

                    * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.

                    --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rdgriffith44" <rdg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
                    > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
                    > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
                    > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
                    > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
                    > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
                    > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
                    > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
                    >
                    > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
                    > of 425.
                    >
                  • rdgriffith44
                    Answers to your questions are yes and yes. I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever. Since my
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009

                      Answers to your questions are yes and yes.  I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever.  Since my Griffith(s) forebears lived in Wales for over 500 years, they probably have the right to call themselves Welsh…irrespective of where their ancestors might have arisen.  Otherwise, you can also eliminate everyone other than the aboriginal tribes who populated pre-ice-age Britian before arrival of the Celts.

                       

                      There are three participants in the Griffith DNA project who definitely descend from the line documented in the Pedigree publication.  One of the participants (not me) has a solid trail of primary documentation back to Griffith Griffiths, one of three brothers who emigrated in 1717.  He and I are a 37-37 match.  He is descended from Griffith's son Abel; I'm descended from son William. The third participant has a genetic distance of 2.  We're not sure where our connection lies.


                      --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.
                      >
                      > Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?
                      >
                      > Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.
                      >
                      > Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith.dna.rdgriffith.com/research/Cardiganshire/PEDIGREE.pdf It's a pretty neat document.
                      >
                      > Mike
                      >
                      > * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.
                      >
                      > --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, "rdgriffith44" rdg@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
                      > > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
                      > > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
                      > > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
                      > > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
                      > > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
                      > > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
                      > > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
                      > >
                      > > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
                      > > of 425.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Susan Rosine
                      Since I was the one who started this discussion thread, I should probably say that if any of you have traced your line back to Wales, then you have Welsh
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 15, 2009
                        Since I was the one who started this discussion thread, I should probably say that if any of you have traced your line back to Wales, then you have Welsh ancestry!!! No one knows who the original people were who lived in the area we now call Wales. What language they spoke, what their DNA was--it is all a mystery.
                         
                        One aspect of our Wales DNA project is to study the various haplogroups that are in Wales, and see if we can figure out where they came from. For example, the E haplogroup (all subclades). Was it brought in when the Romans occupied the island?  How about I1 and I2? I1 is actually not that old; it probably came to Wales at a later time--could have been brought in by the Vikings, Normans, etc. I2 might be one of the oldest haplogroups in Wales. And R1b1b2 may've been brought by the Celts, or Bell Beaker folk. We may even be able to narrow it down further at some point in the future. The Romans gave names to several tribes in the area of Wales. One was the Silures. They were said to have dark curly hair. It has been thought perhaps they came from Iberia. Well now, there is lots of R-P132* in Iberia--right now it is far ahead of R-L21*.  So, is it possible that the Silures were really from Iberia, and were R-P312*??? Are the men who are R-P312* descendents of that tribe?
                         
                        So, forgive me when I put "Welsh" in quotations, or when I speak of "invaders". I simply mean that we MIGHT be able to determine at some point, that certain haplogroups likely arrived at certain times with certain tribes or immigrants. Most of my Welsh lines I've only been able to trace back to the 1600's or 1700's. So, are they "old Welsh" or "new Welsh"? I don't know. Some of them could be "invaders" but they are all still Welsh to me!!!
                         
                        Susan

                        --- On Mon, 6/15/09, rdgriffith44 <rdg@...> wrote:

                        From: rdgriffith44 <rdg@...>
                        Subject: [walesdna] Re: Are you "Welsh" if you're R1b1b2 null 425?
                        To: walesdna@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:21 PM

                        Answers to your questions are yes and yes.  I guess the question of the day is what makes a person Welsh, or Irish, or Scottish, or whatever.  Since my Griffith(s) forebears lived in Wales for over 500 years, they probably have the right to call themselves Welsh…irrespective of where their ancestors might have arisen.  Otherwise, you can also eliminate everyone other than the aboriginal tribes who populated pre-ice-age Britian before arrival of the Celts.

                         

                        There are three participants in the Griffith DNA project who definitely descend from the line documented in the Pedigree publication.  One of the participants (not me) has a solid trail of primary documentation back to Griffith Griffiths, one of three brothers who emigrated in 1717.  He and I are a 37-37 match.  He is descended from Griffith's son Abel; I'm descended from son William. The third participant has a genetic distance of 2.  We're not sure where our connection lies.


                        --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "mwwalsh" <mwwalsh7@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't know is my answer to the "Are you 'Welsh' if you're R1b1b2 null 425?" question. There are probably many kinds of Welsh paternally speaking, Hg I, R1b, E, J2 & T* etc. My guess is there are some null 425 who are not Welsh as well as those who are.
                        >
                        > Are you 55HKE in Ysearch?
                        >
                        > Please consider getting the deep clade R test as well. Looking at who you compare to in Ysearch (if 55HKE) there is a good chance you are R-L21*.
                        >
                        > Is this your family's web site? http://www.griffith .dna.rdgriffith. com/research/ Cardiganshire/ PEDIGREE. pdf It's a pretty neat document.
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >
                        > * Old Hg K2, now T - is also Welsh. I'll explain.
                        >
                        > --- In walesdna@yahoogroup s.com, "rdgriffith44" rdg@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > My predicted haplogroup is R1b1b2, but currently have only tested 37
                        > > markers. I have several close matches that appear to be Irish; however,
                        > > my line is proven to 13th century Wales, to Rhys ap Rydderch of Castle
                        > > Howell, owner of Gilvachwen Pantstreimon and other lands in the Parish
                        > > of Llandyssil, Cardiganshire. Pedigrees by Dwnn and others agree that
                        > > Rhys is descended from Kydivor ap Dinwal who is said to have married
                        > > Katherine, daughter of Lord Rhys, Prince of South Wales, commissioned
                        > > Chief Justice of that country by Henry I in 1169.
                        > >
                        > > I just upgraded to 67 markers and will be interested to learn the value
                        > > of 425.
                        > >
                        >

                      • dcleatond@aol.com
                        Who are the very mixed Welsh people today - found worldwide like many others???According to recent Y DNA Research in UK/ Chester and North Wales, and in the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
                          Who are the very mixed Welsh people today - found worldwide like many others???According to recent Y DNA Research in UK/ Chester and North Wales, and in the Balkans at Pristina. And I am of the E3b1a Haplogroup - and now in a new M Classification, and  will very possibly be related to the E3b1a Roman Soldiers in all these places it seems.
                           
                          But I have a Welsh family and Welsh Border history in my Cleaton name in the Llanidloes area of Mid-Wales , and perhaps to a Roger de Cleaton in Shelve in Salop in 1414, of Norman origins?
                           
                          And also to the Roman E3b Soldiers in the Legions based in Germany and then in Chester, and many other areas back to Italy and Africa, long before the Romans were here in Wales 2000 years ago?? WE ARE  INCOMERS IN WALES, from before the Ice Ages.........The CELT/ KELT  label is a Victorian tag to the P an Q Celts from Central Europe, at Hallstat in Austria, and La Tene in Switerland......So do theWestern Iberian Welsh have their own Tribes here now??.
                           
                          With thanks to Brian Picton Swann and many others.
                           
                          Dennis Cleaton, in Powys, Mid Wales,   dcleatond@...
                        • Robert Powell
                          As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a very good
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
                          As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean
                          the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a
                          very good British paper that used DNA to look at the Anglo-Saxon
                          invasion that drove the Celtic people out of most of England and into
                          Wales and Scotland. When you read it, be careful in that the British
                          line up their DNA markers in a different order than in America, so pay
                          attention to the DNA marker numbers rather than the order that they are in.
                        • basenji_luvr
                          I think this is a well researched paper, and I ve read it before. But, a word of caution. The paper is from January 2002, which seems recent, but in gegenetic
                          Message 13 of 14 , Jun 16, 2009
                            I think this is a well researched paper, and I've read it before. But, a word of caution. The paper is from January 2002, which seems recent, but in gegenetic genealogy the year 2002 is almost "antique"!!! Much more has been discovered since the paper was written. I'd like to see the study re-done using the latest STR and SNP data. If you look carefully, you'll see that the haplogroups they studied don't all even have the same names now, and many have been divided up into further subclades. It would be fascinating to get the newest data for these same samples and see if the analysis still holds.

                            --- In walesdna@yahoogroups.com, Robert Powell <rpowell@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > As mentioned before, it depends on what you call Welsh. But if you mean
                            > the Celtic people then I think the R1b1b2 fits that group. Attached is a
                            > very good British paper that used DNA to look at the Anglo-Saxon
                            > invasion that drove the Celtic people out of most of England and into
                            > Wales and Scotland. When you read it, be careful in that the British
                            > line up their DNA markers in a different order than in America, so pay
                            > attention to the DNA marker numbers rather than the order that they are in.
                            >
                          • Robert Powell
                            I don t follow why the study being 7 years old changes anything. You mentioned that much more has been discovered since . Could you provide that information?
                            Message 14 of 14 , Jun 17, 2009
                              I don't follow why the study being 7 years old changes anything. You
                              mentioned that 'much more has been discovered since'. Could you provide
                              that information? I would be interested in any new studies or
                              information on Welsh DNA sequences.

                              I don't understand why you wonder if the analysis still holds. The study
                              only used six of the DNA markers while today we have 25, 37, and more.
                              But that does not change the results of what they obtained. For example,
                              27.5% of the population of Llangfini has Haplogroup 1, which is the
                              sequence of 14-12-24-11-13-13. It doesn't matter if you could subdivide
                              that better. The fact still remains that people with that sequence has a
                              close affinity for Wales. So if you had more DNA markers you could
                              subdivide that population further, but it does not change that this
                              sequence is very prevalent in Langfini.
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